 and welcome to Books, Books, Books. I'm your host, Mihaila Stoops, and today we're talking about banned and challenged books. My guest is Deb Stolling. She is an activist and advocate for gender equality, LGBTQ rights, and racial justice. Deb has over 35 years of experience in nonprofit management, leadership, development, and fundraising. And last but not least, with her partner, Charnafe, Deb has established Pono Coaching and Consulting, a company that helps individuals and organizations grow and lead and make a difference. Deb, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for inviting me, Mihaila. I'm delighted to be here. Well, so let's get into it. More than 800 titles alone have been banned in US last year. And this seems to be a growing trend. It started with parents and advocacy groups, and it's been reinforced or strengthened by state policy or state legislature. So what's going on? Why is there such a trend? Well, you know, happily, Mihaila, I don't personally know anyone who's involved in challenging and banning books, so I haven't had a heart with any of these folks. And if you ask them, lots of times what you hear from politicians or parents who support these kinds of exclusions, they'll say that we believe it's up to the parents to teach this. I think when you ask, you know, why this is going on, it's important to look at the timeline. The American Library Association's Office of Intellectual Freedom just released a couple of months ago its report, its 2022 report on demands to censor books, and the news was really stunning. The demands to censor books nearly doubled between 2021 and 2022. And so there were actually in 2022, 1,269 demands to censor over 2,500 titles. And when we... More than, if I'm correct, more than 30% of these books either have authors that are LGBTQ or they have content or stories or characters that are LGBTQ related. Absolutely, yeah, about 33% of them. And there's a special focus right now on excluding any... Any book that writes on the topic of transgender characters and topics. So that's especially, that's especially present right now. But if you look at this, you know, the number of challenges this year, it's the highest that it's ever been. The ALA has been following and reporting on these numbers for more than 20 years. And if you look back the first time they reported in 2012, or it's 2003 actually, there were 305 banned titles or challenges to banned titles. In 2012, there were 339. In 2020, there were 223. And in 2021, it went up to 1,858. So when you think about why this is happening, if you look at other things that happened during that time, we saw that the President Trump was not re-elected. We saw the insurrection of January 6th. And what many people suppose or what many people hypothesize is that when these folks were not... It's really in the aftermath of that 2020 election loss that extremist groups really shifted their tactics to organizing locally and pursuing their agendas in venues where it was really easier to gain power. And so since book banning is done at the state and local level, that's why I believe we're seeing this explosion of book bans. So for a book to be banned, I should mention that it actually starts with the fact that that book is recommended by educators and teachers and librarians to become part of either the inventory of a library or to be on the curriculum. And then there's another group of people, usually parents and a lot of mothers sometimes, that decide that those books are not appropriate for their children. And it's kind of interesting, it's a complex question. It's a complex question. If parents should be involved in deciding what books should be available to their children or not. And it's also interesting. I think there was a study that says that majority of the proponents of book bans have not taken the time to read the books. They're just adverse to a topic. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's true. If you look at, you know, Mihaila, there's a list of books that, you know, I feel confident that you have read literary classics like A Mice and Men and Fahrenheit 451 is banned in one county because it violates religious beliefs. So, you know, these lawmakers are actually and administrators who are making these decisions are banning access to books that don't conform with what they deem as religious beliefs. And I mean, Fahrenheit 451 is an example. The Bible was actually banned in that book. You know, it doesn't, and so that alone constitutes violating religious beliefs for those folks. The other thing I think is important is that those same folks who say it should really be up to the parents to teach these things, you know, it just can't go without saying that these are the same lawmakers who in Florida have made it illegal for parents to choose gender-affirming healthcare, medically necessary healthcare for their children. So, it feels like in some instances they're very pro-parent rights. And in other instances, they don't trust parents to make medical decisions for their children. And luckily, that horrendous law was overturned today by a federal judge. But yeah, so it's really, you know, when we talk about the motivation, it's hard to not recognize that some folks are talking out of both sides of their mouth. Well, and as a parent myself, I know there are topics that I need to get educated first. And how am I supposed to decide what's good for my child when I don't know enough about those topics? And I feel like I need to be the one to go read some of these books first because they probably are educational and then decide for myself what I want to do. Right. And some of them wouldn't take very long behind a little because more than 20% of the books that are banned are actually picture books for children, but very simple, loving, affirming messages. So, you know, it wouldn't be like getting through war and peace. Right, so it's not just authors, but it's illustrators as well that are affected by these bookbans. And, you know, I wonder in this day and age, if these bookbans are, what are they accomplishing? Are they, I guess, those groups that advocate for the bookbans, do they really believe that they're protecting young minds? Well, I don't think so. Actually, I don't know really what they are hoping to accomplish, but these kinds of things do solidify a base, a conservative, active, hyper-conservative base. If you can get someone to speak out at a school board meeting, you're more likely to get them to vote as well and to be in someone who would volunteer for a conservative campaign. So I'm not really sure what they're hoping to accomplish, but I do know the effects of these kinds of bands are just absolutely chilling. And I grew up in a rural Title I school and I know that for me, there was absolutely no positive representation at all of what an LGBTQ person could be or could accomplish in life or that it was okay to be who I am. And when we look at rates of completed and attempted suicide in young people, Kim Jennings, who is now as the president of Lambda Legal, but was the assistant education secretary, really talks about how this exclusion and discrimination is just causing horrible mental health and wellness outcomes for kids. And so the people who are engaged in the fight against these bad actors, I feel like they understand that they're saving lives. And not only does it mean so much to see someone for these students, to see someone with their identity or with whom they identify represented in a healthy way. It also, when we ban these books, we're not teaching non-gay kids or we're not teaching people about people of difference. So I think it's a big leap to say that if someone reads one of these books, they're going to become gay. I think we all know that's not how that happens now. But it is a real cultural loss and it demeans empathy and understanding as a human race to not share stories of difference. Yeah, just like if somebody read a story where all the characters are Asian, they're not going to become Asian, same thing. And sometimes some of these book bans are just absolutely ridiculous. I remember one discussion here in the local community about banning books by Dr. Seuss because one of the books illustrated, misillustrated an Asian character. And I thought that was taken too far. But obviously these are very, very complex issues. And I myself, coming from Romania, I had to deal with censorship and also books that were banned, the translations were slaughtered and there was really a black market for books. And that were not, that the translations were more accurate or that people were just exchanging. So I'm kind of thrilled to see, for instance, walking into one of the bookstores here in Maui that not only they have a section for banned books, there's even a book listing all the banned books through the years. And it gives me some hope. Yeah, absolutely. And while the American Library Association also fits out the top 10 banned books list every year, and this year there were so many that actually became a top 13 list. And most of those books are books that are about LGBTQ people. But overall, as we said, only about 33% of those books are about queer folks. But 41% of the books in this index are fiction and nonfiction books with protagonists of color. And so, you know, there actually is a big movement to banned books like I Know Why the Cage Bird Sings and, you know, books that I consider like literary masterpieces. You know, recently Florida banned the poem that was read at President Biden's inauguration by Amanda Gorman. Florida banned that. And now, luckily, the ALA is suing them. But books that depict slavery, racism, those are also being banned at even higher rates than books. I think there are more of those books. And so they represent a larger percentage of banned books, the 41%. But, you know, the motivations are pretty clear, I think, in most cases. So banning a book obviously reduces its availability in libraries and schools and possibly in stores. And I'm very grateful for these other entities that are supporting these authors that may be banned and their books that may be banned. I know you have an extensive experience with non-profits. Do you wanna speak specifically about one of them that has been active in this area supporting LGBTQ authors maybe? Well, there are several. The American Library Association is a terrific resource for people who want to know more about this subject. They have the freedom to read. No, sorry, they have United Against Book Bans. And they have just an amazing resource center for people and also Penn America, which is pen.org and the American Library Association is ala.org. Both of those websites have a lot of information, how you can be involved, tip sheets, how you can report a book fan. You can see what's happening, you know, state by state and where where new challenges are happening. So both Penn America and the American Library Association are fantastic resources. There's another group called Red Wine in Blue, which is a group of suburban moms who are very staunch advocates, very staunchly defending their right to read, the freedom to read. And so they have fantastic resources. They operate a banned bookmobile where they buy banned books and they take them around to places where people advertise that they can come and access one of these books. They also will send you books that you can help distribute in places. So those are just organizations I'm very supportive of. I guess the one that's nearest and dearest to my heart is an organization called Hope in a Box. And I think in some ways that name says it all. As I said to him when he grew up in a rural title one school, I have so much appreciation for Cope in a Box because they curate LGBT inclusive books and create curriculum that teachers can use to create and educators, teachers and educators can use to create inclusive classrooms. And we are... Do they send in a box to the school or how does it work? So what happens is a teacher requests a book or a box or a box and we put together multiple copies of the books. We create curriculum so the teachers understand best practices on how to teach the curriculum that accompanies the book. And then we also have a nationwide network of resources and one-on-one support that teachers give each other. We've seen these bookbans in the past two years create more uncertainty. Librarians are being attacked. I mean, we think about, you know, I don't know. I guess they've always had like a certain mental image of a librarian and now to realize that librarians are like on the front lines of a civil rights issue and they're standing really strong to ensure that we all have the freedom to read. And so these people request the books. We don't, you know, we don't send them anywhere that we're not invited. So the teachers request the books and we send them along with the curriculums and then connect them to other teachers who are facing some of the same issues. And, you know, we are seeing teachers even in places that aren't facing bookbans really stepping up and working to create, to support teachers who are in areas where the big bands are happening. So... If there were an entity, like an organization like this that may need help of growing and making a difference, they should reach out to you because you may be able to help. Am I right? Absolutely, absolutely. Right now it's Give Out Month, which is a nationwide LGBTQ month of giving that will culminate at the end of the month on Pride weekend. And we are hoping to raise at least $40,000 to continue this work. We see that just sending the books is not enough now. We really have to provide other resources because teachers would be in danger of losing their jobs and even physical threats in their own communities by trying to just create an inclusive classroom where all their kids can flourish. And it just makes, you know, I think it's just so sad that teachers who do so much to support our kids that they're now facing this kind of really retaliatory action. So anything we can do to support those teachers out there, the educators, the administrators who are making good decisions with the kids' best interests at heart, we want to do that. And that is what Hope in a Box is about. Well, that's fantastic. And again, I'm so fortunate that we live in Hawaii. And I think these issues are not as dire here in Hawaii. I think we are a lot more welcoming to all these topics. And maybe some of the other states to learn a little more aloha spirit, Mihaila. Well, and I was thinking as I was walking into that bookstore and I know there are a lot of tourists and it got me thinking, how many of them are they possibly from maybe Florida or Texas or Missouri or North Carolina where they do have books that are banned, numerous books that are banned. And maybe they come across it and they pick it up and they read it while they're here back with them. And, you know, it's like, you change one person at a time, right? Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a parts and minds game. You know, one of the names that I really appreciate is one that says, be careful who you hate because it might be someone you love. And I just think that, you know, families that have LGBTQ people and then, you know, some of them have learned this lesson the hard way and learned that, you know, supporting their kids, supporting their family members is so important. And boy, once you love someone, you know, who is impacted by things like this, it makes that acceptance a whole lot easier. So, yeah, I just, this is something that I feel really passionate about. You know, I moved to Maui from California, but I grew up as a young person, I grew up in Tennessee. And, you know, I'm devastated that that state is really with Florida and Texas, they're really leading the charge on these kinds of hateful actions. And I just think to myself, well, you know, from your own daughter, how hard it is to be a kid and do we really need someone's like, politically motivated actions to just make it that much harder for our kids? Well, so I do wanna mention that the most banned book, the book that has been banned 15 times or by 15 different entities is Gender Queer, A Memoir by Maya Kobabe. And I, as I was preparing for the show, I've started to look into all these books. I haven't read this one yet, but I started Lawn Boy by Jonathan Everson. And, you know, I definitely feel like I need to cover, to read all these banned books. So Deb, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. And last question for you. Any recommendation for books? Oh, absolutely. Well, I do love Lawn Boy. It's a great one. I love that book. I love anything by Sherman Alexi. And, you know, the idea that Maya Angelou's books are on these banned book lists just like blows my mind. I think she is just such a gift. She was such a gifted writer and such a stellar human being. So anything by Maya Angelou as well. You can pretty much, but anything by Toni Morrison is banned. So those are also great, great books to read. And I can't wait to get home to Maui and lay on the beach and read one. That's a good plan. So again, thank you. And to our viewers, you got to go pick up one banned book today and read it and make up your own mind. Don't let other people tell you what to think. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.