 I've learned a lot. I forgot I'm upstairs. I can't help you with that. No. Okay. Yeah, we might, when there's a crew up there, we might move it to your room. Okay. Hi. I'll let you out. Sorry. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. It's not funny. I've done what you've done. So it's Helen. You're starting. Oh, is Megan not here yet? No. Because all of them sit down, usually. And Kevin was the one. So who finally got an honest call? I don't know if I would. I don't know. The rest of the team. Thank you, sir. Thanks, sir. You're welcome. Thanks for your support. I mean, I think you weren't going to express anything at any point during the first round. But there are some type of three way type. I think it was, you know, I think you will totally enjoy it. I think that's the point. And the sense of humor. I'm serious, John. If you don't keep the sense of humor, you can't get it out of there. Yeah, we'll tell you the bills have already come by a lot. Yeah, we'll tell you. There are plenty of those. Yes. I'm curious, I haven't just four hours, and people are really happy to show you are happy. She's cute about growing it next year. How do you get that? Yeah. Okay. Charlie, are you set? Oh, I'm sorry. Are you set? Does that sound good? No. All right. Well, I'd like to call to order the South Burlington City Council meeting of Monday, January 14th, 2019. And our first order of business is to pledge to the flag. Tim, why don't you start? You haven't done well. Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Hi there. So, moving on to item two instructions for an emergency in case of an emergency. If we have an emergency this evening, please proceed immediately out to the side doors and gather in the parking lot to the south. If these doors are blocked, please go out the main lobby and out the main entrance. Take a right and go into the parking lot. Tom Hubbard and I will make sure the building is clear. And bring your jack. Item three, matters relating to collective bargaining and contracts. I would like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of labor relations agreements with employees, collective bargaining and confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council would clearly place the council in the city at a substantial disadvantage. Okay, all in favor? Aye. And having so found I now move that the council enter into executive session in the process of discussing the matters identified in the previous motion. All in favor? Aye. So we should be back in about half an hour. We estimate. They give it to me immediately. Only this time. Next time you're going to have to have it now. What are these? The tabs from our books? Is that what these are? These are the tabs from our books? Yeah. I don't know if I have them with me. I'm going to make this. I'm going to keep it quick. Actually it's warmer. Have you been able to get out? Do I have any signatures? I've got two more because I have to go ahead and do it with my neighbor and get him to come over and find out why I'm here. What a poor thing to do. You get your front door kicked in there, don't you? It was last year. This year we have to deal with it. This one is not new. Michael and I, well, Michael looked and it was definitely coming in above the kitchen window and coming through the ceiling sometimes because there was paint peeling. We went out back. There was nothing near that window outside. Nothing. No snow, no ice, no glass. But Michael noticed there's a vent on one of the sloping roofs. He said he wondered because there was ice above it. Not a whole lot, but a few of those amounted to him. And he went out later. He was one of the two greats. He knocked it all off. So apparently there's something around that vent. And this happened because when it gets... I live in a house that is 100 plus years old. When it gets very cold, that's it. That's it. That's it. City Council meeting for Monday, January 14th, 2019. And we will take up item four, which is the agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in order of agenda items? Okay. For the other business. Okay. Just an update on the rotary event. There are awards night and also a very brief discussion to talk about early education centers in South Burlington and impact fees. And asking if the council would like to work on this matter. Okay. All righty. So item five is comments and questions from the public not related to the agenda. Is there anyone who wishes to make a comment? Seeing none, we'll move on to item six, the consent agenda. We have one item approving disbursements. I would entertain a motion to approve. So moved. Second. Okay, we have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? All in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. So that passes. Item seven, consider and possibly approve the FY 2020 South Burlington Enterprise fund budgets. And we'll hear from Justin Rabadou. Charlie, where would you like us? Behind a mic. Very good. Pick a spot. Good evening. Good evening. Justin Rabadou with the public works department. With me are Jim Fay, general manager of Champaign Water District and John Temeke, who is the retail superintendent of the Champaign Water District, which makes him South Burlington's water foreman. As you know, contractually, they provide that service for us. Just quickly, since Jim's here tonight, and he's going to thank me for this. For those of you that don't know, Jim is retiring after 30 plus years of service in the Champaign Water District. 40 plus. Okay. Trying to be nice. Yeah. As of June 30 this year, Jim has been with the district for quite some time, has been as general manager for as long as, I've been aware, and he started and rose to the ranks 40 plus years ago. And the district's always been a great partner to the city, so I just wanted to briefly take this moment to acknowledge Jim for his service to the district. Yes. So thank you. Tonight we're here to talk about our Enterprise fund budgets in South Burlington, which are three divisions within the Public Works Department that are non-property tax funded. Those are water and water. I provided you with a cover memo that detailed seven various attachments. I can, like we did last week, I can just go through the budgets and highlight, and there's not much to highlight, but any maintenance or any questions, or we can dive a little bit deeper into any of the information provided. So I guess whatever the council's pleasure. I just wanted to say that this is the first time I think that I saw the breakdown for the water meters and the service charges, and I found it just enlightening. Great. So I wanted to thank you for that. We've probably been remiss in not including that level of detail in the past. I'm glad that it was well received. So there's John's group, in addition to just the provision of water as a system, as you can see, from three pages of various charges and all the little things they do on behalf of the city for our residential and commercial customers. And all those costs are simply our cost of conducting business. As you notice, one of the costs of the meter is actually down to the actual penny that it cost us to purchase a meter. So we're just kind of acting as a pass through, and the council in hopefully adopting the budget also blesses the associated fees with it. I just took that we have the cheapest best water around. They're very close to. And our flushes cost less. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. They had the histogram where they showed us the second lowest rates for a couple of things. We don't want to talk about it because they'll keep trying to move that bar to the right. And every community is going to keep trying to move. Essex is probably trying to get their move there to the right, too. The reason why the water rates going up is because the bulk price for water is. So yeah, primarily the, the operational side, the city side of the budget, as you've noticed in the budget is it's essentially level funded. Some items go up, so items go down. But Jim, the increase in the wholesale water rate this year was six and a half. So we're I think maybe contributing 60% probably of the retail rate increase to refer to some of the probably about 60% of that. The rest of it is essentially personnel and administrative you know, insurances, salaries, everything. The actual purchase, purchase line items, whether it's hydrants or linear feed of pipe, all of those items are relatively the same. So it's just the cost of limiting increases, which is which also constitutes a decent chunk of the wholesale rate increase as well. To be exact, the average family is going to see a 6. A $6.68 per year increase. And of that amount, CWD is $3.90. So the city itself is $2.78 a year. Are you bringing some of the work in-house? I was just looking at the labor line versus the professional services line, for instance. So the reason that one of those goes up and one goes down, and if the council would like I can point you to those. I know certainly Councilor Emery's eyes so I'm like drawing it right now. But there is a decrease in the water department line 65.68 professional services. And there's essentially an equal increase in the administrative services, which is a few lines below 66.73. There are, again, because of various retiring personnel, there's CWD likes to have a healthy overlap in incoming and outgoing employees. So under one line item, which would be the administrative services, we would be paying a couple salaries for the same position for a few months. So as a way to offset that in professional services above, we have deferred the purchase of a pickup truck. So again, it's not exactly dollars for dollar, but to keep the impact of this kind of one-time expense minimal on the budget. We deferred the purchase of a pickup truck. And while we're in the water budget, there are no capital projects of note, except for the continuation of the water meter purchase program, which in the cover memo bullet 6, you'll notice as you read it that we have dropped our water loss by 4% over the past few years. 4% of 625 million gallons roughly means it's $1,000 in recaptured revenue to the system. So by spending about $1,000 a year replacing water meters and putting in newer water meters that are much less subject to water loss, we are increasing revenue. We're capturing more water through the meter. So that's good in water because obviously it's $100,000 in revenue. But if you recall, our sewer bills are also based off water consumption. So there's a similar impact. So we're spending about $100,000 a year on new meters. Sewer is more expensive than water. So we're probably gaining us about $230,000 a year next to revenue. We have a few years left of that program. There's about 2,500 meters left to swap out in the city that will continue. And that will certainly just drive the water loss. And I believe bullet 7 actually showed you the charts where we have, we do two things as a water customer. We purchase water from the district and then we sell water to our citizens. The purchases you can see are fairly consistent. It's the water sales that are starting to come back down with our system loss from 12% to about 8%. And, John, why don't you inform the council of a really well-run water system to experience what percent of water loss? The American Water Works Association goal revised lately is 10%. So we're doing quite well in that respect. I believe that replacing the water meters, the water radios having more efficient and accurate water meters along with reducing chronic loss and non-revenue water is having a positive impact on the water system. So we're going to continue that for a few more years. It's reasonable to expect our water loss to start creeping down the 5% or 6% range, which will be a really tight system. Do you know the rate of residential versus commercial for the hookups? And it doesn't go along with our Are you referring to the connection fee? Yes, okay. So for residential water connection fee, it's $1,250 proposed for FY20 in South Burlington. That's not what I was talking about. Okay, I'm sorry. That's okay. I'm sorry. Let me give you better indication of what I'm talking about. Yeah, the sewer usage charge, the sewer connection charge, the metered water usage charge that they're all about 3%. That is correct. Which our population hasn't increased in the year 3%. So is that commercial or is that just people are using more? So are you looking at the rate and fee adjustments? Below our list of the current city of South Burlington sewer and water department rates in the number of years. So those represent fee increases. So it's a 9% increase in the sewer usage, sewer fee. It's a 3% increase in the connection. So that we have, which I didn't provide you with, we are however expecting a 1% growth in water sales. I will note that water sales are extremely dependent on summer weather. If it's a dry summer, people are watering their lawns more, we're selling more water. So we just based, we base information off of history. We don't take into account even though we're growing at about 120 single-family homes a year, we just kind of go by history and try to be conservative with budgeting. So those numbers represent the rate increases. And those also correspond with the sheet. We just pulled information off this sheet to put it all in the one place for you. I'll pick up on Jim's theme earlier in which he discussed, and I know he mentioned it last week. With the property tax, Tom Hubbard provided you the average cost increase based on a single family in a condo. In South Burlington, if you combine the average proposed increase for storm water, water and sewer without a calculator, it's roughly $17 in change for the three utilities, that's for an average home in South Burlington based on normal water consumption of about 200 gallons a day. There will be about a $17 increase annually in all three of your utility bills combined. Continuing down with the water, as I just discussed, our only capital project as it will be in the next couple of years is the continuation of the meter replacement project. The next budget detailed is storm water and in storm water we're showing a 1.75% increase which is $1.44 a year. It's 12 cents a month, $1.44 a year for the South Burlington single family homeowner. And in the storm water budget, really the biggest change if you look at the dollar change from 19 to 20 is we're just delivering more capital projects in 2020 than the current 2019 year. 2019 has been more of a design and permitting year for us. We're spending less money in 2020. We're going to be building all the things we're designing and permitting now. Those all have corresponding revenues below. So that line item which is $81.00 storm water capital projects for the most part is essentially a pass through. So while it kind of roller coasters a bit and it might jump out at you as alarming there's corresponding revenue that always comes with that on the other side of the budget. And lastly within the wastewater budget really the only project or the only big difference of note is we're continuing our conceptual design of our Bartlett Bay wastewater facility upgrade. It was last refurbished in 1999. These facilities have roughly a 20 or 25 year shelf life. So we're looking at some point in the next years at another, at an upgrade to the Bartlett Bay facility. What exactly that includes beyond just making the technology modern. Whether it includes additional hydraulic capacity that all remains to be seen. But we're spending $100,000 this year as opposed to $40,000 last year. So you see that 60,000 jump and that level will be increasing as we go forward. Eventually we'll be getting back to that. And I'm going to go back to the point that you mentioned last time we built Bartlett Bay in 2012 when we did airport partway. You'll also notice that the payment to Burlington wastewater is going to be zero in FY20. Down from 240. And you'll notice that the bond repayment of that note is now in the budget at And then also whatever Burlington's rate would increase annually 3 to 5% so $15,000 and that gap would grow over time I wanted to highlight that important project that the council and the public supported us on when you're going to throw the switch The switch as you as it were probably sometimes in early June Yeah, you know mid-may early June on it might it might depend on when does spring construction season arrive? Can we have a ribbon cutting? Certainly we can we can we can create a switch for y'all to flip With the residents notice anything different not at all. We hope not So there the way that the sewer is leaving everyone's house nothing's changing The only it's changing is where the put where the pipe leads Yeah, so you really should if someone notice the difference and we're in trouble Those are the three budgets on the you know that the revenues again the revenues are pretty self-explanatory Nothing that we haven't seen before or haven't talked about no big jumps or no big decreases in revenues I will note on the stormwater revenue When we do our CIP, which I know Sudori Was provided with and I believe provides you today If you look at the stormwater CIP and if you look at the stormwater grants line of that in the revenue in The out years works. We're extremely conservative. We were assuming anywhere from 150 to 200 thousand dollars That's all we're going to receive in grants and then we're covering the rest of it with the fund balance within a stormwater fund Well this year you'll notice we're proposing 935 thousand dollars in grants because we were able to get that amount of grant So what that does is if we can keep doing that year after year It will eventually curtail some of the back-end higher increases in the stormwater rate because as you know We're on the hook for 30 to 50 million For MS4 permit and a lot of these projects are kind of down the line big dollar ones But if we can continue to be successful if the stormwater group can keep writing good grant applications Then the then our ability to rely on that money will go away and like it like this year We're proposing 1.75 percent rate increase that's lower than we had anticipated in years past And so we hope to kind of have that same story every year for you going forward Beyond the budgets there are a few as discussed there are a few charts in here showing comparative water and sewer rates There's the water sale and the water purchase which tells the good story about the implementation of the water meter program And that's I Know it's tough to kind of sum up About 12 million dollars or so in a nutshell But there's really not a lot of headlines in these funds and they're operating very well I think Tom can attest to their fiscal health Don't don't be dissuaded by the fact that we have low rates that we don't have a Patchwork cheap system if we want stuff we go ahead and we get and we get it We have a very Healthy system we just happen to Run in a way that is less expensive than others for whatever reason But we by no means is this is this is our lower rate reflective on the quality of our system It's in fact, it's quite the opposite. No, I think you're right. You're right. You're excellent I pay more for a vacant piece of land across the lake than I do with using all my My facility my utilities here, so much appreciated and And also the quality of what we get I've had the clear impression my four years on council that we just do water, right? We've been doing storm water We've been investing in it. We're leaders and experts in the area. So I think so just reflecting that So who calibrates the Champlain water districts meter that shows how much water we buy from them You do can we see that data? No, I'm just you know we we have thousands and thousands of water meters, right? Oh, well not for the individual what we wholesale to you at the Uniform Yeah, those master meters How often they calibrated Normally depends the type of meter some are every three months and some are about every year to Two years how many meters are there? The the biggest meters because you're the you're the first system served out of the treatment facility Those those big venturi type Differential flow meters are the ones that are done quarterly and most of the ones that go out of the city for the next town for the most part are also the Kind of the highest technology you can buy this type of venturi meter. It's not really a mechanical meter So those those would also be every three months, but the the home meters and business meters There's you know about 6200 6200 How many different versions are out there right now How do we want how many different versions of water meters are there in South Burlington homes and businesses there? There's only one manufacturers Generally one manufacturers meters in homes in South Burlington Neptune or an iteration there of Generally one size 5 8 by 3 quarters and they have a usable life of 20 to 30 years So we probably have you know, we have the older version that we're swapping out with a newer version So in terms of versions we have something of two versions of the Neptune meters in our properties Chance to calibrate a meter before you stick it into a new house Certified there's certified from the factory. I'm just curious like you know after a meter's been running for let's say 10 years How do you ever know if the meter is still accurate? You know What if we have an opportunity to pull a meter because of the problem? We usually have it tested And we can either send that out to a mender or the city of Burlington writes Testing services as well. They usually come back in the utilities favor as within a WWE Specifications if for some reason they don't then they're they're replaced free of charge for the customer If you have this disparity between how much our meters show that we sold and how much you purchase from there Some of that could be lost elsewhere in the system not necessarily by Water loss leaks in the fires firefighting Flushing of hydrants water mean fleshing. Yeah. Yeah You keep track of that at all. I mean in any way or as much as you can No, not I mean, it's not worth it. Not those types of issues. No, well I would we would keep track of it if we we would try to identify a the cause of if our Water sales lost started jumping up really high If you remember a few years ago Rutland could not find where they were losing six hundred thousand gallons a day of water Months later they found it, you know, so when you're faced with that situation. Yes You you become proactive, but otherwise when systems performing like this Um, nothing jumps to nothing is causal for concern Just like to know it's okay. We're being charged that I have one question meter metering things It's like you go to the gas pump. There's a little label on it And the Vermont State checks it once every x years, and I've seen the guy actually testing it and feeling a five-gallon can And you know, you just wonder, you know, who's Checking that, you know the the measurements, so thank you. Appreciate it Are there any other comments you want to share? Any other questions? Okay, would Thank you very much It was good information. It was easy to read and thank you So I would entertain a motion to approve the FY 2020 South Burlington Enterprise fund budgets Any further discussion Okay, all in favor signify by saying aye Okay, moving on to item nine Receive and discuss recommend. Oh, I'm sorry consider and possibly approve our the 2020 South Burlington General Fund budget We had a motion and a seconded and it was seconded last meeting but we Continued it for today Pending some getting some information about our contract negotiations Which we got in executive sessions, so we have a motion on the on the table or on the floor. Are there any other? The motion was to approve. Yes Any questions or comments? Okay, just a comment of mine. I think and I think we made this last time, but we have more people in the audience now it was Really a very easy productive and thoughtful presentation of all the budgets with all of the different departments and it was it really I think they all supported the budget and understood some of the Requirements or caveats that the council provided them and Six years I've ever seven years. I've been on the council. I think this was the easiest One and it seemed to not that the issues are any easier But I appreciate the staff some You know dedication to this and presentation and nobody really was complaining Knowing full well we could always do more But people seem to be Satisfied with what we were able to come up with and we did keep the increase to 23 Before before you add the penny and then it's four point So if we're ready for the vote all in favor signify by saying aye aye Great, so we have a budget Meeting yes comment on that and I particularly want to credit Tom Hubbard and sue Dory for the hard work on the budget All the department managers put the budget together, but it was Tom and Sue that really really did the hard work of pulling the budget together and and Combining them all and staying within the council's guidelines, so Tom and Sue deserve a great deal of credit for pulling this together Okay, moving on to item 9 so this is receiving a discussing Recommendations from several committees. The first one is construction of an indoor recreation facility at Veterans Memorial Park and we'll hear from the recreation and parks committee Agenda suggests you have 15 minutes. Oh Yeah, I have a special attachment. So I just need whatever the HDMI Do we want to have all the everybody who's gonna appear up here? That's why we set the table. Oh, okay. Let's have all three committee so that people speaking on the Creative Arts Center as well as the Charter committee Did you want us all to Introduce ourselves or just one by one as we speak how would you like? Well, why don't we have the people talking about the indoor recreation facility? Okay, well I can I can start Jennifer cookman. I am chair of the recreation and parks committee and tonight our committee met and We unanimously Approved a Statement that I wanted to read to you tonight. I gave you paper copies and Holly and I are here to advocate for creation of an indoor recreation facility Our recreation and parks committee whom you appoint to advise you Have recommended creation of an indoor recreation facility for the 12 years that I have been on this committee Every member of this committee past and present has said that building an indoor recreation facility is Essential to the health and community of residents of South Burlington We have stated this goal on numerous occasions at City Council planning commission and in public Every director of recreation parks department Tom Hubbard Todd Goodman Betsy Terry Maggie Lugers and Holly Reese Has said that creation of an indoor Recreation facility is essential to providing recreation program opportunities to the residents of South Burlington Every director has said that attempts to find adequate space for recreation and programming Have been frustrating securing space in other facilities does not serve us well The lack of indoor recreation facilities means that we do not have facilities to meet the needs of our community The city has proposed various scenarios for developing this space dating back to 1998 and the list is long in August 2018 City Council approved a resolution from Recreation of Parks Committee to build an indoor recreation facility We recreation of parks committee and recreation of parks department believe that the plan now under consideration Is the very best plan for creating recreation space This is a location with proximity to the most intensive outdoor recreation programming It is adjacent to the Karen's arena and will be in synchrony with the Karen's arena projected development And this will create great synergy It is in close proximity to the Wheeler Nature Park gardens and walking trails It will be located on city land and will not therefore be depriving the city of revenue possibilities In city center no trees will be cut down and no wetlands will be affected There will be adequate parking the design makes sense. It addresses the priority needs of our residents The recreation parks foundation has made the creation of this facility the number one priority for raising funding for recreation and parks This plan is affordable given the demographics of our community and the economic benefits of building this structure We urge the city council to recognize the importance of this proposal and to make every effort to see this enterprise Through to the ribbing cutting ceremony We especially want to thank city managers Kevin Dorn and Tom Hubbard and Councillor Dave Kaufman for their work in bringing this proposal forward and we thank you very much for your attention to this matter so Holly Reese director of recreation and parks and I Get the fun part of showing pictures And some numbers if they come up Crossing our fingers There we go. Yay with some lines in between. Hold on. Maybe it's too close to that Try again. Hey, so it's an interactive fun. I don't know what's going on with that, but We'll try to I did I don't know why it's glitching, but Maybe Kevin of the Adjustment on that side. Maybe if we all hold our breath No, I Still see it. I don't know Okay, you know, I think it's on that and We pay the electric bill, right? We could hitch it up too if that's the problem Kevin's going to a different cord we can try Kevin do you have the PowerPoint on your Okay I Getting some hard numbers and designs We're going to support this whatever You're not confident in that Stand at ease sorry for the pause a lot of it's going to get hers and see if she's got a better connection somehow worked upstairs I Could be a connection to the wall I Was really expecting that tonight. She's if you look at the third page We we divided out our needs and our wants and the pool is definitely in a want Based on the kinds of requests that we have had over the years We feel that this meets our our number one priorities, but In fact somebody a person came to our committee tonight saying can you add a pool to this? So it's it's I've heard other comments about that too. So it's in people's minds to have Pool eventually for sure try you know, I like a pool top, you know, I like this Well, that's what I've been telling people that a regional real a aquatic center that would have the lap pool the Olympic size the splash pool and a therapy pool for seniors You know warm water therapy pool would be Hmm, is that the river where you walk upstream? What is that called though? Oh, I don't know that that would be fun. Wouldn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things you always ask about there's a few others, but Related to recreation nothing there There's a really big indoor facility that's going to be freed up probably in a couple years off ahead of her drive. That's right Do you have this present several pools in the side? It's a lot of Three pools one on each level of the parking garage That would be the outdoor pool The Sears parking garage Ronnie did they'd be above ground pools, of course So while Alana is Trying plan B. Hopefully we don't have to move to plan C I was just going to add Jennifer had said to Thomas somebody had stopped in to talk about an aquatics Potential and I will say that in the past week since we presented we've had a lot of interest from the community everything from Coaching staff at the high school trying to figure out indoor space for track and winter track to pools to private Groups that are looking for space to run their businesses. So definitely a lot of interest in the community, which has been exciting Well, that's what we what we heard tonight was that in the whole county in all of China County It's hard to find gym space And and you know what I mean on nights like this year. You're not going to go out and Walk around You know it we need it's Vermont. We need indoor Facilities for people. Okay, okay Super so thank you So these are some slides that Doran Whittier put together for us. You just some visuals obviously the On the left is Go back that's okay On the left would be the elevated track kind of just visual and then locker rooms and and then kind of What besides your traditional thought about basketball might be able to go on in a facility like this? So this is just an introduction And as requested you can go on to the next slide We were looking at three options So a hard building a semi rigid structure and then option C Which would be the inflatable dome or air-supported dome all three of those as we presented before would have The hardscape or the hard building Fronting piece which would house The offices upstairs and downstairs a registration space some office space a program space and that connection over to the rinks as well So yep, so Megan rinks are on the left So this would be the visual for option a and that is the hard building So you'll see yep You'll see the front doesn't change at all But you'll see the peak of what's behind there the gym space change with the options So that's the first one and then we can go to option B So option B would be that semi-rigid rigid fabric structure And you'll see nothing else changes. It does have a higher peak and then for option C is The inflatable So just to give you a sense and then the next Slide is going to show some projected numbers So option a remember we're going from the top down in terms of the hard build as option a and B and C and so we're looking at the projected costs for The first view to be a little you know between 19 and 20 million and that's a 50-plus lifespan building And then we go to option C and looking at the margin between B and C Not the recommendation of the architects to go with C Just because of the price difference and the limitations that it brings That's also the recommendation of the committee because you couldn't have the track on the second floor with option C You can only do it in option a or B and we It's Impossible to put the track down on the first floor because then people would have to run through You know to get to the basketball court you'd have to go through where people but you can have a track on option B with the semi on option B in the middle. Yes, you can have a track a On the second story. That's what they tell us You know some of the options that are only afforded to us with option a would be solar or so the structure for Having solar on the on the roof would only exist in option a I know that's been a concern about the ranks that are next door that That's just not a potential with the structure that they have so it feels like a little bit of lost space Obviously with the designs we would be looking to you know, coordinate with the rink as much as we could for their excess heat and taking that Heating costs all together between a B and C Is that the soft cost and the electrical costs because having a dome you have to blow it right to keep it Which involves? Yes Well, I don't know that we built out those costs In these I don't believe that we have Kevin. No, not yet. Yeah So, I mean that's a consideration too for for those and you know The energy efficiency that we wouldn't be able to capture with an option C But in terms of energy efficiency Mm-hmm. Is it safe to surmise that a hard? Building you know option a has the potential to be More energy efficient and closer to net zero than B or C that that is that is the assumption Yes, and that you you'd have you know more control when you're thinking about heat and humidity and containing that That that your best option would be option a That's insulation So when we think about some of the long-term costs if if a hard construction last 50 years and you get and the B the next one only lasts 25 years You have an extra 25 years of energy savings But I don't know what we don't know what that is but that would be a good number To estimate I think in terms of trying to make a decision about what's most cost-effective I think Another consideration that we heard from Kevin tonight was that With heat and humidity control you have if we have wooden floors for the basketball courts They would not have as much of a tendency to buckle. I've seen what happens when you have Wood floors in in a high school. Buckling in. It's not a good not a good thing. That's an expensive It's a pair. Yeah Go ahead come so the library was 21.4 million and this is about 20 million But my unlike the library which can't I don't know of these rules correct me if I'm wrong can't generate revenues through charging For their services because they're a public library I'm under the impression that we do charge in some cases use of our space facilities and so on so some of this cost could be Defrayed with some revenue streams that have we started to work out any of those Financial models as to what we might be able to cover in cost of the facility in fees for the recreation for the use of the space I think Tom the likelihood is that we could cover a lot of the operational costs I doubt that we could cover the capital costs or even Component thereof. I think you in facilities like this. You have to be able to build it and then with the fees you can operate it Probably not the capital cost. So does this include the equipment that you would need? Say the rims for the basketball nets with yeah, those are included in the soft costs Yeah, okay, and you know at this point, you know, we're big picture thinking So we have gone through that immediate need list with the architects and they've taken that into account So storage and bleachers and netting and you know, we do have to do the fine fit and finish like any project would do choosing You know exact flooring and and those types of things, but they've accommodated for that there is a Program space in addition to the the larger space that has the three quarts in the turf field there's a program space that would be used for yoga and We were thinking we could also put a tarp down and it could be used for some messy kinds of projects that you know some of the facilities in the community center are are More nicely fitted out and this would allow for the maker kind of space. It would be a flexible usable space We don't have anything like that at this point either so it serves that would serve a real need to and And the other part of that that is just so wonderful is having it Connected to the carence that would all be one one long building in front of the carence where the building is going to go between the two rinks and They are proposing having a weightlifting room and a coffee shop and maybe a place to gather For even having drinks and beer and wine we wouldn't be doing that But we've heard from the pickleball people that they like to do their pickleball And then they like to gather and have some Sociability so it works really really well with the planning that's going around the carence arena We're getting you know the again Some is bigger than the the hole is bigger than the sum of the parts so this is the early stages can do you have like a an Idea of what an average programming day would be like in winter versus summer there and and what percentage of the space would be actively used I mean, I know that you've run into some issues with the schools sort of Superceding some of your programming in the summertime Right because you've had diminished, you know Participation right by school kids because and and I know that there are some other school programs that are also kind of like infiltrating Rec space, right? So I'm just curious what what would be the wrecked demand for this space on a given You know day either after school or during the summertime How do you anticipate that the allocation of that building to be to work on a given day? Sure Well, I mean to just speak off the cuff to it I certainly don't you know have a written schedule for you But it's anticipated that it would be programmed pretty much from 5 in the morning till probably 10 or 11 at night and that would encompass everything from you know, obviously pickleball it would be Different league play whether that's basketball whether that's volleyball adult youth teen tween as well as for you know Maybe some yoga a jazz or sighs Tai Chi I mean the possibilities for programming it are endless And I think designed with the flexibility to be opening up to a really expansive space or to isolate courts You know it certainly Might be an option that we might run a couple of camps out of there in the summertime, but would also be filled with other Programs that would serve us adults throughout the day So just afford us the opportunity to offer what we currently can't offer to our community as well as Pick up some of what we're currently offering It's it's pick so it's four possible courts, right? And they're configurable or one's definitely basketball and well, they would have flexible lines, right? So yes, so at least three hard surface basketball courts, but those would be lined separately With different colors and different arrangements for a variety of net sports So that you might you might have a basketball tournament that's going on And all three courts are used for five or six hours or you may have you know Two courts that are being used for basketball and one that's being used for volleyball I think there are a million permutations for that One court was special. I remember the one of the four was There's a consideration for one of them to be right an artificial turf and and I think that's You know something that would be you a specialized instruction or you know Skills and drills kind of thing it's certainly not big enough to accommodate, you know large field sports But that wouldn't be the intent Is that is that a hard-set thing that you want that fourth court to be a synthetic turf or? I think it's you know everything at this point is up for consideration and conversation and debate for sure You know, I think it allows for some flexibility, but there's also options where You know, perhaps we build for basketball courts and then have the flexibility of rolling out some turf So we certainly don't want to pigeonhole ourselves into not having that flexibility I remember about a year and a half ago Glenn Sprule and I think Jen and I think you were here to Presenting to us statistics on comparable size municipalities and the amount of investment we've done in rec facilities I couldn't for the life of me find that presentation Is really helpful statistics and they're doing form this discussion Yeah, and we're actually working through those numbers right now for for this year's nrPA annual reports So Jennifer can forward you what we've done and then as soon as the committee's still in our work with the next one We'll forward that as well Traditionally we present that in the March April time frame I'm noting that the current design does not include bleachers for the audience at courts That seems to be disappointing. It does include bleachers for audiences Okay, I said list of second priorities. Oh, that might just be a note. It is included. It is included Yep, so they would be you know, right? That's why I roll out. Okay Good to know. Yeah, and there has been some discussion. We were speaking with Kevin earlier too about You know the the school doing their master plan as well And you know and what kind of shared experience we might be able to be thinking about providing for example their middle school Basketball program right now. They have zero space for audiences So is that something that if this first the facility were to be built that we might be able to accommodate? pieces and parts of their schedule so definitely looking to to serve the community and and work through those options When I look through your second priorities, I do see Things that I would consider essential to a recreation program. Have you thought about how these needs could be met? So just pull up the list three school active space you program space or classroom. I I think we went with the number one priorities That are right in front of us that we think the community could afford that we could bring to you at this time After some you know discussion with the city and How these things might be bet I think would have to be for the future I think for one thing if when the Library community center with the senior center is built and there's an auditorium and a lot of space there and This gets built If those two things happen, then I think we would be in a Real good position to see you know to go through our priority list again and say You know what what do we really need after these two facilities are now serving? Some of the unmet needs and how do we get there? I guess a question to come at it from a different angle is much of the summer and after-school programming has shifted to the schools and Is this working within kind of the the status quo as it is right now or is this looking at building a Program that is more recreational within the city Operating I think that's the intent so this would be Aiming to meet the goals and the needs of the active recreation indoor person the intent of this facility is not to encompass all of those So it's really just met, you know intended to meet the critical need That we hear on a daily basis from folks that we can't offer programs because we don't have the space so my third maybe final but never say final question is Do you see that this facility could? Provide a service to the county or is this something when you look at how the day would be programmed from 5 a.m. To 11 p.m. At night is that specifically South Burlington? I think a lot of the league things, you know even pickleball You know certainly not a hundred percent of those participants are from South Burlington We put together adult leagues for volleyball and basketball and certainly not all of those participants are from South Burlington But you know the majority are so in terms of reaching beyond our boundaries or borders That's that would address that as well But they're little communities within themselves because if we're considering attacks on rooms and meals and As well as our sales tax we should think about what? What population right will being taxed and what population will be benefiting right? I think we have to think about those questions Real quick would this likely be a replacement polling location would we end up doing elections at this space if it was built? Seem like a natural fit more so than our gyms and our schools Okay, oh just have one place to go vote The candidates for love that you wouldn't have to see yeah The same as a hockey tournament next to the refreshment stand yeah too far fetched Let's say money And the schools wouldn't have to close down their gyms Thank you to say on your point Megan people from outside the community now It's going to be an experience similar to the ricks if we build it and other communities don't have it And it's open to use they will gravitate to it whether it's men's league basketball or pickleball or Indoor turf practice in the winter time or something like that I think that's kind of a natural evolution and that's what that's what will happen I mean the use of the rinks by people outside of South Burlington is huge Maple Street pool charges a less for the Essex residents than non Essex residents So we probably have an SB resident fee and then a non SB resident fee too. We do for all of our programs You know from my perspective because I've been talking with with you folks about this since since the beginning Early on that this is something that we very badly need in South Burlington. I'm hopeful that most residents Recognize that we need indoor recreation facilities exactly how that's going to come about in a final design that remains to be seen as Everybody weighs in and the design is tweaked and the fact is it's going to cost a fairly good bundle of money Which I could have seen coming from from the beginning Because when we first started talking about it We were talking about a bubble that was going to cost a few million bucks, right and that was only three months ago And here we are so from a rink perspective and for those of you folks that don't know I've been on the board of of the arenas since since we started to raise the money to build rank one We'd be ecstatic to have this as part of the overall complex partly because our proposed addition to the arenas and we're we've got about a Last I looked I think our last estimate was we got about a six hundred thousand dollar gap that we have to fill I think our projected construction is about three million bucks and we projected it at about two point three two point four So we got a little bit of a gap. I'm fairly confident We will fill that gap and move ahead with our project before too long But that does indeed include an expanded food service probably with a food service manager and And that would work so much better if we had other people using a recreation facility that could then feed into that Literally, you're right You know overall will make a great make a great complex. So to me the question is not should we do it or Exactly what's going to be included because I think that's going to be fairly easily figured out It's how we're going to pay for it and And therein lies the big challenge Do you have any other comments you want to share with us? No, just okay other questions Tim one more question so What I don't think I've seen in here is is Reference to the whole space indoors being used as like a venue Like so if there had to be something that that you occupy the whole space right for either presentation High school graduation. Yeah or concert or or or a rain sight for something Yeah, but you have to get the stairs first We've thought about all of those it would be a matter of for the By now you've got to make sure that I got climate control and yeah But yeah, we've thought about all of those you do have the possibility of using that whole volume Yeah, yeah, if it's schedule Yeah, but there is the potential for doing that thing. Yeah, you might have a think about having a slightly raised stage of one that or something like that Okay, thanks Flexibility is definitely the name of the game. So good thoughts risers that you just So is there any concern about this competing with any commercially available Recreational spaces. I mean does anybody have a conversation about that or is it worth a discussion or we just I think there's A need a rack rack its edge is great facility, but for a family to join there It's $1,500 a year and I just see this as filling a void of indoor recreation space in a really cold climate So I just think there is more than abundant need without cutting into any of their current business That's my impression as somebody that has looked at joining one of those gyms and constantly as kids that are trying to get energy out in the wintertime I Think too that there's still a void beyond you know Some of the local fitness facilities, especially those that you know do do tournaments. There's just not enough space So I think that they would even say to they're as booked as they can be and Can't service a lot of their requests It's not a focus on the weight training I think Karen's just thinking about a weight room very very minimal. We don't we don't have anything okay We have something small planned. It would be primarily servicing teams for For the people who are for the hockey players to even figure skaters to get some exercise Nothing substantial if there's no other questions. Thank you very much. Oh sure The operating costs the whole picture, yeah Any idea I think it's anticipated that You'll hear later from the charter committee on this But it's anticipated that an actual vote on incurring debt where we would have to have all that information would not come until Likely the fall at the earliest so it gives us the spring and summer To continue working on all that before we would present anything to the council we would want to have those numbers tied down pretty well. I Think there's the other opportunity to work with the school district as they do their visioning and design of Whatever it is. They believe needs to be built or Fitted up in the school district this might be an opportunity for space that they would not have to build new and could be used by the school. So I think those are other Financial aspects that would be important to to know if we can ahead of time I don't know exactly what the time frame is but That's another area. I see where the city should coordinate those efforts. So we're not Building more than we really need Other questions. Yes I run one of the largest adult recreational sports clubs, basically Not my own facility, but just independent recreational sports leads throughout Chinatown There is a huge demand for additional facility space in the area and I highly recommend you You can write the check for it would be all set I But by saying that are you making a case that a potentially Increase that the local option tax increase which is is paid for by Lots more people than self-burling Tonians Is Feasible I mean will people make that connection like okay, I'm gonna have dinner at Restaurant in South Burlington, and it's going to be another 1% But that's going to the rec center that my kid plays Basketball in or something so I run multiple sports leagues. I'm currently at I believe 14 weeks throughout the greater Burlington area Over the course of those and I think I had 1500 participants this last year That number is completely limited by a lack of facility space I could Probably multiply that by a factor of 10 If facility space was available Throughout Chinatown that's outdoor indoor We have participants coming from Spalding high school to participate in programs in Williston on a Sunday night at 10 o'clock We have teams coming from a scissor Again coming down to play Programming Williston They come down they have dinner before the game or after the game a Lot of my adult recreational programming They like the social aspect of it, so they meet up with friends afterwards at a bar for drinks and food there is a Just a huge number of events and activities that can't happen because there's no a best place Tournaments Especially youth basketball tournaments There is no good facility that has multi-courts outside the UVM and their facility time is extremely limited Based on their own school schedule and uses Those tournaments can bring in hundreds of people for a weekend just to participate in a youth basketball tournament That that demand is completely unutilized Like the hockey, yeah again like the hockey program if it's here people we are in a Really good central location between Montreal and Boston and Albany for all these regional teams to come up and participate in programming plus we have The infrastructure and the amenities of the city to support a program that is currently being There are programs in central law or white with a junction to service a lot of tournaments That we can't service here because we don't have the facilities But they don't have the infrastructure to support large Interesting Well that information those statistics if we go forward with a local options tax would be helpful to have shared with restaurant owners and hotels and the legislature in terms of You know getting traction on that You live in South Brompton Do we have your name and contact information? But thank you, that's helpful Any other comments or questions? Okay, let's move on. Let's see who's next the creative arts Center in City Center I'm going to take this one charter committee isn't going to need a laptop, right? That's okay, that's okay Thank you very much Yes So Mary You want to start sure. Oh, okay. So I'm gonna okay. All right, so So I'm really excited to be here tonight to talk about this quasi project or project It's it's one of those projects that's been sort of out there for a while and I wanted to talk about that We were contacted in 2015 by Tim Barton who Owns a local arts business in the South Burlington Community on San Remo Drive within city center and I think he spoke to you about this a bit last week and several weeks ago and Just wanted to really reiterate You know, it was he had a really big idea and and he brought it Both to us at the staff level but also to the council and he also brought many professionals Within the creative arts milieu and specifically performing arts into discussions with him and Over the next year or so he put together a board of directors He contracted with Don Hirsch to to begin a feasibility study. He incorporated a 501 C3 With the assistance of the board of directors and they worked with Don Hirsch to develop focus groups And reach out to the South Burlington community the local arts community and the business community and Through that period I spent a lot of time meeting with that group And so I wanted to tell you that not only was I meeting with that group But I was also scheduling artists meetups in South Burlington. We were undergoing undergoing a community identity project So talking more about, you know, what is South Burlington? What does it mean to residents? What does it mean to the business community? I worked with Teresa and Robert Davis to secure a grant to develop the Davis studio That's over on Shelburne Road, which is a new More Plastic educational arts facility that had existed in the region for a long time, but has really blossomed over on Shelburne Road I Worked with the public art selection committee and throughout this time I became more and more aware of artists that live in South Burlington and also That have children who have careers in the arts whether it's broadcasting or film on the stage but more and more success stories and how the Ability of their children to participate in create creative activities had really allowed them to go off and Develop some successful professional lives and so and I also had some training opportunities and so one of them Was a planning conference that focused all on arts and And I had always known that arts was a proven economic development strategy But it really drove home how Places like Boston are using this and also smaller places like Brattleboro that and that even the state of Vermont is really getting into the creative arts as an economic development driver and In fact, we have been participating with the state in the creative zone Meetings that they've been holding so every county now has a creative zone to work on coordinating arts activities and building on The tremendous energy that's in our region and different regions throughout Vermont and developing that aspect of Vermont's identity and I just Really wanted to emphasize that this is a great committee and they have a lot of exciting ideas. I Recently listened to a talk by Peter Kagayama and he wrote Love where you live creating emotional Engagement with places And so he says citizens wanting to do positive things for the community are a boon to the community and this group has really drawn a diverse and talented group of professionals with a Depth of experience in performing arts. So it's really exciting to see what they Recognize in South Burlington That they see South Burlington as a pivotal location within Vermont and a great place for their ideas so and project So I think Tom Tom Dunn spoke with you a few weeks ago And I'm not sure if you're going to say anything and then Katie Decker who you may have met at So who night out She was the main MC and and so she hit she's here tonight Tim Barton is Unfortunately unable to join us tonight, but we'll be reappearing soon. So Great, thank you. Do you want to introduce your background? We've met we've met before I'm Tom Dunn. I'm Now a retired IBMmer, but I had 20 years in the theater business and Here is a member of the board of South Burlington City Center for the arts I'll be able to answer questions that maybe Katie can't so that's why Great, and I'm Katie Decker. I'm also a board member of the South Burlington City Center for the arts I've also worked in South Burlington for the last 17 years as the director of Center Point School So I've been connected to education in the state in that particular way I'm also the executive director of ballet Vermont and we produce two ballets Completely produce them out of South Burlington the farm to ballet project is probably the one you may have heard of and so my my interests lie in performing arts in that particular way and then also Education is a passion of mine. So thank you for having us I wanted to give you a quick update since you last saw us at the last meeting First of all, I wanted to let you know that there is a detailed memo forthcoming to address the questions that you had In follow-up to in response to the feasibility study. I believe you also got an updated one recently With some adjusted numbers connected to that You know since since that previous meeting a month ago. There's just been a flurry of activity Primarily living in the realm of conversations with potential collaborators and partnerships And so along with some board so we've been speaking to about this I'm wondering if that crew can just stand in value in this project along with our board Alas The feasibility study and so we're hoping today that's we see to the South Burlington community can Give you a quick project overview about what's being a similar baseline about the what? And I think that there's a full of them I'm gonna explore them a little bit more We want to give you an update about some of the partnership and collaborative conversations that we've been having and give you a chance To hear from a few of our partners and then just talk to you a little bit about where we're thinking about associated with next steps, okay? So in terms of what is being proposed And we would our goal is to partner with local and regional arts organizations the school district and the business community So that the city of South Burlington would create a world-class creative arts facility We believe that this this space that we're thinking about is directly in line with the city center's focus on creating connection and Creating place which have been identified as priorities by the city specifically in relation to the development of city center You know, I don't think there's any question that there's a lot of Thoughts and concerns about how arts are being funded, especially with the political landscape in the way that it is and the American for the arts Did a national survey just in 2018 and the results that came back about that Many of the questions were associated with attitudes and beliefs and the results that came back Connected to one of the questions with which I thought is very relevant to this conversation is that 90% of the adults that were surveyed believe that having an arts and cultural facility in your town increases your quality of life and 86% of those people believe that it has a positive impact of the on the local Economics and the in the local business community and so that's that's an attitudes and belief statement that I think is relevant to this particular situation So the what that we're talking about is a 500 to 700 seat main stage, I think you heard in the feasibility conversation You know the original idea for the size theater did come from Tim Barton, but also a group of people That are in the arts locally. They have decades of combined experience and are you know looking at Surveying the scene regionally and identifying a need We've had that further reaffirmed in the different conversations that we've had with partners around Yes, we've seen a need for that. We've thought of different ways too about building that We're not you know that that is sort of an identified need in the community. It feels it feels a niche that niche that doesn't exist I Think that it's an appropriate size for local groups local dance theater music groups that can't necessarily fill larger spaces But can quickly fill some of the smaller smaller spaces Besides the local groups it allows unique presenting opportunities Again because it fits a particular size group It's also a great fit for communities in terms of dance recitals talent shows authors lectures coming in And so that's a little bit of what What that space could be used for we're going to talk more about it in the opportunities as we move through We're also looking at a black box theater 150 to 200 seat studio theater so a black box is much more flexible There's different arrangement options on that you can use it's in terms of its uniqueness It's larger than any of the ones regionally. It's two stories tall. So it's flexibility in terms of sitting up the space I think the unique features to this and also the the space we were talking about previously is that We think that it's necessary in terms of Progress technological progress that the spaces are set up to be able to stream and to be able to record And so that that creates a unique opportunity Even for those who may use other black box theaters to be able to record Or stream their performances which expands audience and creates, you know, a unique opportunity for an art group We're gonna talk about some of the auxiliary spaces next but I think in it One of the benefits for sure is the co-location of the co-location of all these things being in the same place Just creates more opportunities for different groups. So Related to the additional components of the arts education facility Spaces that we think are important to our rehearsal space studio space Seen costume and prop workshops in addition to the box office and administrative spaces So that's what really makes this facility unique is that it creates the opportunity to be a producing theater Meaning that you can from soup to nuts create a brand new production You have all the things that you need there to be able to do that And so that's one of the unique features of it That co-location besides just somebody who wants to produce creates different opportunities for festivals Camps intensives that really in the arts that really look at having access to multiple spaces at any given time Which really increases in terms of renting Really intensive rent opportunities, which is excellent Another great example is if you bring in a dance group to a You know a 500 600 seat theater and they want to do a master class Then you have an opportunity to have a full immersive experience in one location Yes, okay, yes you can move on So In terms of the content, you know, it's very easy to think of maybe some default performing arts, but We really see it as a space that can be pretty expansive besides just theater dance music lectures Political speakers authors this live live streaming opportunity the opportunity to do film and video Comedy to bring in comedy in a particular size. It doesn't exist And then the educational opportunities, which we're going to go into in much more detail Thank you so in terms of opportunities one area that we just want to focus on here is Creating space for regional and national companies to produce art which could include new works in general in Theater in ballet and dance and in music so what this looks like is a space that can do it all as I referenced earlier So I'm just going to give you an example of something that actually Happened in South Burlington. So the images that you're looking at here are from young Dr. Jekyll it is a script that was written in New York and then it was brought up to Vermont and it was workshopped and then performed initially with the Vermont musical theater Academy out of spotlight Vermont and then It was then later Performed in Schenectady at Proctors and so that's an example of ways that This space could be used not just Locally but also regionally and can be a place that appeals to others You know the Berkshires is there's a lot of spaces like this in the Berkshires where Artists from New York who can't afford space like this in New York sort of escape to to be able to be in an an immersive experience for a week or two weeks to produce and South Burlington has the opportunity to be a similar space costs Up here would be much more reasonable than it costs in New York City And so there's an opportunity for South Burlington to be a place that Companies can come to to spend a period of time not just Using the space but using all the facilities of South Burlington hotels eating out all those types of things as well Thank you I Mentioned this briefly But we're really envisioning all the spaces that to be set up to support 20 is first or 21st century emerging production Distribution models would make no sense to construct to construct something new and have it be short-sighted And so there's opportunities here to be unique in this region But also to be a destination place for groups who need a recording of the work that they're doing Or would like to have live stream of the work that they're doing So the capacity for media recording and streaming streaming capabilities would allow us to reach new audiences and learners And potentially additional revenue Likely additional revenue In terms of so I'm going to spend a little bit of time on here because this is something that I'm particularly passionate about There's opportunities here to connect to partner with South Burlington School District UVM CCV other schools To be able to address initiatives that are coming from Montpelier Associated with flexible pathways personalized learning and workforce development, so I'm not going to assume that you know what those things are I'm just going to tell you a little bit about them so By 2020 employees are saying that there's three characteristics that the top three characteristics that they're looking for in terms of their workforce are creativity Being able to solve complex problems and critical thinking and we really do believe that the arts provide the opportunity to practice all of those things And to develop those skills Flexible pathways which is act 77 In personalized learning is sort of a component under flexible pathways it basically is saying to schools We want to give you the creative flexibility to be able to develop programming for students that allows them to Explore things that they're interested in And develop the skills that they need to be successful in the 21st century And so there's a bunch of different places There's a bunch of different initiatives that are connected to that Personalized learning is really about students being able to say hey, I'm passionate about this I'm interested in this and I want a path to be able to explore it the way that that might play out might be around work based learning internships shadowing job shadows Having the opportunity to learn what it would take to to proceed in a particular business There's a general lack of ability to do that around the arts in terms of the opportunities around here this this gives us an opportunity to Create well to make that be possible that there's an opportunity to do that. There's a place to go do that Be to be able to do work side-by-side with professionals And I think you know, I really do believe that that Students need a place to be able to do that I'm in that South Burlington could be that place not just for South Burlington for it, but for read regionally also So the next thing that I want to talk about still on this slide though Tom is Is workforce development so? Ag 69 which was you know connected to Promoting economic development in Vermont A lot of work is a work group that came out of that was looking at workforce development And one of their initiatives one of their strong recommendations one of their key recommendations out of that was Supporting the creation of apprenticeship programs pre-apprenticeship programs paid internships job specific training industry recognized certificates and training and so this is an opportunity and there's some overlap with that with what the Schools are trying to do but there's opportunities there for us to be creating programming We're meeting with CCB has a work development a whole entire work development sort of Area and we're meeting with that crew in the next two weeks to talk about opportunities there but one of the challenges at school districts are having is how to Use the systems that they have to be able to address these initiatives and with with things that currently exist and here's an Opportunity to build something from the ground up that that includes those things Yeah, sorry anyone's gonna take a while on that one Economic benefit, so You know similar to the conversation we're having previously I think that this is a by default Well, not by default, but an art center is a place that brings people not just from South Burlington into the area Jobs retail development tourism has an impact a positive impact on the hospitality industry Northern stage down in White River Junction has just spoken to us quite a bit about how much of an impact that it's had Locally for them and there's there's differences in our community, of course, but I Think that that is one local example of what an economic engine a space like this can be in a town So we've been in collaborative Collaborative conversations with this crew this this list of people among more You know, I think it's important to know that we're not it We're not at all in a stage where we have a commitment from anybody about how they would use this space That's just not the stage that we're in we've been meeting with them because we are not a presenting organization at this time We are we are intending to facilitate collaborative conversations. And so we've been meeting with these groups to Hear about their experience and to take that experience seriously hear about their Concerns around any limitations of space that they The spaces that they have access to or have had access to if a new space were to be created What would it be important to them that it had and where could they see themselves? Using this space and you know in the initial 25 organizations the 75% of those Indicate that they would use the facility and the more that we meet with them The more groups that we're meeting with the more that we're hearing yes We could see ourselves using that space in some form or another We do have some folks who we wanted to partners that we wanted to make Base to just say a quick statement. Is that is that okay? Yes, that's fine Are you used to a mic? Yeah I'm Philip Stern New York stage originals I think Katie has Basically hit on everything a lot of things Some things that are well first of all you mentioned young Dr. Jekyll young Dr. Jekyll is my show. I'm a composer and One of the things she hit on was We went to proctors After we did it here and we collaborated with their Their tech program their school tech program so we were able to involve the community of kids who helped actually build the sets Paint do some painting so I feel that so what you're talking about in your educational program. I feel that's Relevant to this so Yeah, and I think that's really that's really I Mean for us yet the other component is we talked about Technology and One of the things that my company is doing is We are attempting to film our productions With multi-camera angles and I think so incorporating This Technology Is really an incentive for us to you know to want to be able to come and use a space so I think For example right now, we're looking at doing one of our shows called Scrooge and we are you know looking for Facilities that can facilitate Camera angles filming in 4k So I guess that's another aspect that Katie was was talking about so I Don't know do you have any questions for me as far as like No, I think that's super helpful because you know all the technicalities of why somebody would choose a space like this exactly yeah So, yeah, I think that that's really it again a creative space in in I think I mean shows have to begin somewhere and So creating an environment that You know can nurture composers Can involve the community? Education involving students in the creative process building sets I think is an important component that can really assist in a production company like ours Developing new works, so Thank you. Thank you very much Incubator yeah, you know the startup us, you know, I guess what do we call it a startup page or something? It's something that helps you get your feet on the ground to perhaps have a longer run somewhere else exactly and you know the the idea of a Flexible space. I mean we were talking about a black box a black box is a very attractive space for Creating new work. I mean basically it can be a very economical way to You know to have a smaller audience have audience talk backs About the creative process and that's one of the things we did it at at procters It's an 80 was an 80 seat space, but after each show the director and I would sit down in front of the The audience and talk about the show and imagine involving You know this the community in South Burlington in Burlington in in the actual creative process and that's extraordinarily helpful for Composers creators writers So, yeah You paid for that space in proctor So with procters we formed a partnership they actually paid us a guarantee To come in and bring our show in in exchange. We worked with their students actually Tom Dunn built the set or And So Yeah, sorry, what was the question again? Did you pay out of pocket for the use of that facility so I guess there is it was kind of a for us It was a win-win kind of situation. We we invested some money. We're taking the show to off-Broadway and so we needed a place where we could You know kind of flesh it out and And So we we came with a collaboration where we would be working with their tech students. We would bring in our show and For this collaboration where we paid for some of the materials Per DMs we brought in our New York cast we brought in a scenic designer a lighting designer from New York and collaborated with their students and We put on two weekends of show shows to you know some excellent reviews And that that is now the stepping stone for us to go to take it to New York City So right now we're in the process of working with new executive producers in New York and hopefully this will be an off-Broadway show That was first done at spotlight theater spotlight in Vermont and and I could see that could be You know something that if it's attractive to other creatives that they might want to come up here and and You know develop new work, so so it's very it's very exciting and I think You know Tim Barton's on to something here Thank you And Katie there's someone in that back corner with the blue sweater or green sweater my name is Sophia Hirsch and I I Work with Katie and ballet Vermont. I'm also a member of the Vermont Symphony Orchestra the Berlin Chamber Orchestra I ran a chamber group in the area for a couple years and I can speak to the need for rehearsal space and concert space From the from the musical perspective here we Have you know, it's a it's a challenge to raise enough money to pay for operating costs of a musical group and Rehearsal space is at a premium The options for theaters and performance spaces proposed in this Proposal are Exciting and I think would find groups that would really use them and the recording and technical Feasibilities that would be available. I think would also serve the Musical community really well a couple years ago the Vermont Symphony did a triple Concerto album and we recorded it down in Rutland at the Paramount Theatre We had to pay a tremendous amount to have the sound engineer come in and engineer the space And it made the recording a challenge to do And I think that for months in particular is very unique orchestra Where the oldest state aided I think is the language you're using now state aided orchestra in the country and we'd really like to see that Remain and grow and We don't have Beings from such a small state. We just don't have the kind of Outreach that we could have I think if we could record and get our name out there and in a lot of other ways Hang on if there's anything else there was something else just a plug for arts education and and the opportunities for the development of Mind and creativity that I think is going to be vital in the workforce coming up I'd really love to see South Burlington go forward with this project. Thank you. She says because she just bought a house in South Burlington So I'm super excited Right welcome. All right last one Then we'll finish up Hi, my name is Mike Dowling and I'm president of the South Burlington Community Chorus and We rehearse across the street over in the high school right now although even that space is getting cramped for us and So it's sponsored through the rec department in Holly and actually South Burlington was kind of forward thinking the course is almost 50 years old and so We were one of the first municipally sponsored choruses in the country so There are more now certainly but but not 50 years ago anyway, so Our forefathers had some put some thought into that as a as a recreation opportunity for Adults to be able to do in addition to Sports activities and things like that Our problem has become that we don't have a venue to perform in South Burlington so We have to do our concerts somewhere out of South Burlington Which kind of bugs us because we are sponsored by the city of South Burlington And there really isn't a good performance space for us We have we sometimes get into the high school But often the high school auditorium is just booked with high school activities You know either music activities of their own or theater activities And frankly the acoustics are not particularly good there at the high school either and we performed one time at the old Sheraton But again, there's no real acoustics over there and we had to pay a lot of money to perform at the Sheraton so we've been hard-pressed to really find a good location here in South Burlington to perform and So we are typically performing lately over at St. Mike's Sometimes we find local churches So any place that we can we can afford To perform we we do And it's also been a little more limiting on some of our options in terms of being able to Collaborate with other groups or if we wanted to do a bigger piece that called for an orchestra or something like that Really don't have a location Especially in South Burlington, but much in the area. I mean we we we don't have the budget to to afford the Flynn and We have I think right around 65 singers right now I'm certainly more than half from South Burlington. We do open it up to the community we're non-audition and One of the few non-audition choruses in the area, so it's just a bunch of kind of working people who get together once a week and rehearse and then we do a couple of concerts a year and We usually do get several hundred people come to hear us perform so You know so we get decent crowds and would just be fantastic to have a venue in South Burlington again because You guys are already sponsoring us through the rec department to be able to perform here in front of local citizens again Sure So lastly I'm just gonna finish up because I do feel like it's important for you to know that we have met with the Flynn They could not be here tonight, but I do want to read this statement That they put together the Flynn Center for the Performing Arts Administration Agrees that there is a strong need in the region for performance space in the 400 to 600 seat range They could see ways that they might use a facility like that in several programming areas in particular around their educational activities And then finally we've also been meeting with higher ground with Alex brothers from a higher ground who also could not be here tonight But did want to read this statement that in discussions with both the city of South Burlington in the South Burlington City Center for the arts Organization higher ground has reviewed ongoing planning for a new arts center with the 600 seat theater They've indicated that they see a need for a need for a medium-sized theater in Chittenden County And would be interested in using it This would fill a gap that they see now and in the future of a sit-down type of performance space with a traditional stage They are very interested in staying involved as the project develops So a notch to belabor the points In terms of what's next the council should have received an updated feasibility study this past week Like I said, there's a detailed memo addressing your questions forthcoming We are going to continue meeting with our partners and our potential partners and collaborators continue those conversations We do expect that as these conversations continue continue that the pro forma can move from less of a hypothetical place In a projective place into more of an act actual place And we would like to invite the council to tour northern stage with us sometime in the spring whenever there's less snow on the road So late spring I suppose that would be And we would love to have a chance to come back and yeah in July or August And I would we would love to have a chance to be able to come back and present on a more refined pro forma at some point in the future So that's closure. Thank you. Any additional questions or? Mm-hmm Royal Tyler Yeah, I'm just just asking you to try and get it I do I have a question I saw South Burrington school district there I think right I do remember when our sons were in schools and one of them was in music that it was it was in the gymnasium mm-hmm, they're yeah, and I Mean they clearly have a need to enhance You know the experience of these young people living music. So yeah, so I'm glad you've been in touch with them Yeah Top of that question So have you engaged with the school district about rolling into their master plan for the high school a Performing arts space. Yeah We met with We met with a superintendent and the principal from the high school last week Friday, maybe And there is an interest in collaboration They're in their master planning and visioning process as you have stated Tom Certainly the the a theater is Performance area is part of their equation They also have the need for large assembly areas of 1200 well We can't accommodate that and they can't build that other than a gym And so they're looking I think at the gymnasium that they'll have as that gathering space for their 1200 Plus or minus students Could be yeah, and so they They're very interested in the collaboration on for the various arts at the school and they don't want and Clearly they don't want to have to duplicate that in what they're building So we see a lot of ongoing discussions with them. That makes a lot of sense to me Push with the school district to find a path forward Tim Barton and I had two meetings over the last year with David young And the most of it focused on some of the same things that other partners potentially are interested in the Flynn And others are interested in how we can do this the learning component and they would he really could see how he could leverage the Our arts center as a professional location where they could place students and that internship kind of activity as a as a real Partnership there and in terms of collaboration on the facility I am absolutely pie both my theater experiences were at colleges where we where we integrated a community art center with a college not a high school, but with a college and And they made the whole facility much more logical to be able to extend beyond the education and serve the community But also serve the educational needs. I'd love to find a way, you know for this to be Integrated with the schools like that. I would just note my past life I was sort of involved in terms of the health care field with working on some of the x 77 Requirements to really have pathways for Experiences in different Areas and I see this as having incredible potential for students who might be interested in sound systems or the filming or the You know, what does it really like to be back stage and help with the performance and those kinds of things that? You know, they may be able to have that opportunity at the Flint But this would be another opportunity to offer Students in South Burlington that would be you know kind of right down the street maybe So I think it has that potential That's Can just grow and grow and grow Yeah, well two hands. Do you have can we have these two questions and then Well I'm Dave Schrapenberger. I'm on the board and One of the things that I used to do when I went to the United States Thanks to do for theater technology is Go to a session called other things you can do with a theater degree I Smart well, it's important And what we always tell the kids is that look there are only five Broadway designers, you're not going to fall into that job But what you will learn if you study theater is how to collaborate Because what we all have to learn is that Friday at 8 o'clock We all have to be done and we all have to be done together and that is Something that the business community Absolutely needs from their workforce and we can we can be ground zero for building that with this facility Thank you. That's a good insight. You have another question or comment Want to state your name I love the arts the real question on this is that whole tricky thing about public-private partnership and I'm concerned about this all along if there was a non-profit of all these organizations that were here in the room that had One organization and they said We're raising money. We're coming in with 25% of the cost of the capital cost It would be a true known public-private partnership The recreation facility is different. That's a broad spectrum of uses and well in line the long-established Municipal services The arts I'm like said I'm supportive of it. I all these organizations are great. I've been to their productions I support the arts and I've sat through many lucidals, etc I Feel like this is A municipality taking upon a role and being asked to build a facility Embed on the common all these organizations I'm sure we even in the only appendix of the feasibility analysis does not have a third-party analysis of these numbers I feel like it's a big responsibility For us to take on and the same issue when I lived in Seattle and seahawks ran the stadium down our throat with public-private money so Like my comments about the recreation facility, this one actually has to be even more of a fine-tuning business I Is there a need? Yes Where's the Vermont arts council? Where is their organization of all these arts organizations here saying yeah, we got the money and hey city of south You build a 20 million dollar facility whatever's in the console. We're gonna pay five of it I don't see that I see there's a need for the space There's a need for all these programming. Yeah all these things of the You know the flexible path when I jump my younger daughter is involved in big picture. I get it the whole curriculum thing I get it The real question is who pays and who benefits? So that's that's my concern. I would hope that The council. Yes was important. Nobody wants to speak ill of the arts No one wants to speak ill of recreation, but it's real people's money and it's other people's money It's all 18 now that's not 18 thousand other people are in the room tonight So think about that as you go forward Yeah, I just Responding your comments on that There's an enormous amount of work to do on this We're not even close to being ready to talk to the council about moving this forward that that discussion The the research and addressing the issues that you've raised that are our real issues Will continue throughout this year. Um, I wouldn't anticipate Even asking the council to put something before the voters until Oh better than a year from now I mean, there's that much work that needs to be done But I credit the committee for getting this far And the hard work that they've done more needs to be done and those questions need to be answered Uh prior to going to the to the voters, but it will take some time I mean if I might add to that just for a second and you know thinking back to the rinks That took several years of hard work before it gained attraction And then we came up with tony cairns half a million dollars to get the ball rolling Um The seed work that's been done here far exceeds the preliminary work we did on the rinks for those few years Private facility is it not excuse me the rink is a private facility The rink the rink we built it with private funds and gave it to the city They're not on the financial hook for it. Although if The the rink operating Um company called dorset parks skating association had defaulted on the loan Could have created a problem, but it didn't I mean and that's 23 years ago. So So public private partnerships are fantastic But in the case of the rinks work best when the entire Financial burden was was not none of it was on the city for the construction and we gave it to the city That's the best scenario. Are there other ways to do it? Probably but as as kevin said we've got a long ways to go on this one before we get to a point like that Because what you've stated is a hundred percent accurate Lawner I just wanted to clarify that I may have misspoke in my in my introduction I said committee because I think of it as a committee of people working together But they are a non-profit south brilington city center for the arts. They've been around now for at least two years Working towards this goal and this vision And they do accept donations So we'll have a basket It's a great place to I think we'd all we all hope it works. We've got to get from a to z Tom take a little while I'm just i'm glad to hear that there's a lot more work that needs to be done to flush this out one big pressing and Big U.s question in my mind in this conversation is where this thing would go And what I like about the recreation center is we have veterans memorial. It's a perfect spot We own the land the rinks right there. So it's clear to see that fits there I just have residents I my kids go to rick markott central school and I have other parents that talk to me constantly like They're not talking about this on the rick markott property So I just I think it's very important that we be transparent with the community that if this notion is being put forward I still as a city councilor here not as a parent would want to know Which location are we really talking about because I haven't been presented any of that and land is expensive downtown South brilington that city center so that parking concern with royal tyler isn't necessarily going to go away So those are my big concerns with this notion is where this thing would be and I'm glad that we recognize a lot more work Needs to be done before moving this thing forward But but that being said and all the challenges and the work that they've done I I think you have to admit that that This is one of two investments. We're listening to proposals for tonight that are really key for Ensuring the long-term vitality of the city of south brilington, right? And they compliment not only the city, but they compliment the whole region Right, so and it's really good to hear plans like this being laid because I think they They give us a bigger role than we've had before Right, so with there's that one missing piece of property that that could be self-sustaining, right? And then attract a lot of stuff that we would like to see and have produced here That'd be an amazing thing to have happen. I'd love to see that but There's some distance questions Yeah, yeah Any last comments Katie you're done. No, just thank you for your time for listening. Thank you very much. Thank you for your work I mean clearly we have a lot of people with a lot of energy and passion and experience Who are continuing to work on that and that's very encouraging So thank you Oh Yeah, why don't we take a sue break Five minutes And then we'll come back and hear from the charter I am getting furious texts from my wife that my pipes are frozen. So i'm actually going to leave so that Can get the hair dryer out, but I will watch on youtube whatever I miss of this meeting So my apologies and I have a Yeah, it's cool. I have an old house. All right, so I apologize I Know And we will move on to Our last item under nine This is the charter committee presenting information on a potential ballot item I'm dealing with increasing the local option tax by one percent to Finance debt on certain certain capital projects We heard from two potentially To be considered for approval at a later date. So Take it away Good evening. Andrew bulldoch city attorney. I was charged with Working with the charter committee on drafting some charter change amendment language That would accomplish two things one is a an additional One percent local options tax on sales Meals rooms and alcoholic beverages As well as a Some type of fee or tax on short-term rental Cars the charter committee met on last wednesday and had some thoughtful discussions about What they would want that what they would bring forward and how what this would look like And that's what's in front of you today and there are two options Can I can I interrupt at this point that might save some time for you? peter Peter's going to describe the options One option keeps a hundred percent of the money in south burlington another option which i'll let him talk about Is 70 percent under the current way it's done in vermont. It's 70 percent. I talked to Made of towns and today and she strongly urged Going with the 70 option and so I think Start start with that. I think Peter and uh and just Let's set aside the hundred percent option for the time being you just threw out half a mod I was going to say Well, we'll be out of here early. We'll get you out of here. Okay, so for purpose. This is option two so you have My name is peter taylor And the charter committee committee has asked me to present their recommendations Charter committee is composed of donna kinville who's donna's with us tonight And james mount daniel seff chuck hafter myself You have both received two options, correct? And we're going to focus on option Two so And you understand the difference that was explained to you the hundred is off the table now so Which is what we were going to recommend I think okay Option two so forgive me because I'm talking about options one and two in here, but it'll just supplied option two um First of all section 13 1507 relates to the sales tax one percent Uh section a allows the city to collect the tax section b States how the tax will be collected by the state and the fee paid The state based on the number of returns The rest of this paragraph was talking about the difference in 100 percent or retaining 75 percent. So I'll skip that We considered including specific reference to specific buildings and infrastructure that the tax would use exclusively Um a committee expressed concern that the voters would be misread this as a vote for or against any one of these projects The staff expressed that the outreach before the vote would clarify That this vote would allow the city to impose the tax following city vote To approve one or more of the projects Following our additional discussion the committee recommends modeling the charter amendment on colchester's charter language which does not specify any one project but refers to Future voter approved projects as presented by the city council So you wouldn't specify that in the charter Section c1 the committee Recommends the inclusion of language that the tax shall be collected and used For only projects approved within a 10-year period of the time starting with the first project approval um So what what we were thinking is that this would give a A limit To what this Is about the tax availability So it's not indefinite. So the public has a sense. There's a beginning and end However, any project approved in that 10-year period following the first approved project You could use this tax revenue for And the tax would continue until you've retired the debt if I understand it correctly Am I clear? Okay So that's that's pretty much what the first section And then you go on to section 13 1508 and that deals with the short-term car rental tax The original discussion had the state collecting this tax as in the first section we just talked about But the committee recommends that city collect the tax City staff said this was possible and not difficult or time consuming So we would say by sass bypass the state's collection of the tax and just do it all in house Section a also sets a rate of five percent the committee discussed one percent or more And concluded that it could be more than one percent You have five that's for the committee to For the council to decide what level of tax you might want to put on that and then Section c Define short-term car rental and provides examples of what it's not Okay All car rentals should be here before correct all the major car rentals plus the enterprise on wilson road plus Show me. Is there anything? Is car rental is show me the enterprise will also show. Oh, yeah show me I want to add one thing. I don't think was was touched upon is in it's 13 1507 B2 Is the capital reserve fund? So all of tax revenue that comes from the the local options tax and that's 70 after the 30 cut that the state the state maintains Would be to fund voter-approved city projects And in an amount not to exceed 10 of the total debt on the project And that that was a set aside for as it says a capital reserve fund um for ongoing maintenance or and by ongoing maintenance that's improvements and And other sort of uh structural components that might that might need So what that means is Whatever money we um accumulate with this tax Only Not more than 10 percent can be used to um pay off the debt and the oh I don't get it then 90 percent can be used the opposite 10 percent 10 percent. Oh, I thought okay, so 90 percent of it. Okay Got it. So this allows this allows a capital reserve to be built up over time So that when the debt is completed We still have a reserve for needed capital improvements new roof new hVAC system. It's self funded that way Rather than placing that back and on the property taxpayers immediately. Okay, but then we we only fund that for the Um period of the debt. So if it's a 15 year note We collect this for 15 years and then we stop correct There's no sunset clause in here at all Yeah, the the sunset would be once the debt has been paid off and plus 10 percent for a capital reserve So for a project that started say if we start in project 2019 Um first first vote goes out for 10 years. Um, the city can go forth Under this option to do future capital improvements Um at the end of that 10 years the city could not go forth with any more capital improvements The funds would still continue until all the debt was paid There's a 10-year window to Approve the projects approve and projects projects and generate the debt and then the the tax Sunsets if you will when all the debt has been paid for All of the projects which would be beyond probably beyond the 10. Yeah. Yeah, because you might approve one in year eight And the committee wanted to be really specific in the sense that For two options about not listing the projects one was because we thought voters might think they were voting on it And the other option was just the fact that Who knows in eight years what's going to happen? Could our fire department outgrow its its use doing a new fire department Well, we couldn't list it in the chart as one of those things we could raise the money for It causes a whole new problem So we decided to take out the language about what projects could be brought forth to the voters Andrew question on the on the second part the the rentals the short term rentals That also needs legislative approval or if we're going to do that as a city, we can do what we want I don't remember. Yeah, this would need legislative approval for the authority to yeah, you know What is the current tax structure on rental cars? I believe it's nine percent that the state collects It's a state collection only Um, I don't don't know you did some some research into what other Uh, municipalities other airports charge, right? Um, so I went searching Plattsburg, Manchester, albany Portsband, Portland, Portland And I mean they all have some degree. They all charge state tax They some of them charge like an energy conservation thing Um, and then they all have this one fee called It begins at the sea They all charge is like 11 8 percent charge facility charge. Yeah, it ends up being a facility charge And that seems to be pretty much how everything is broken down and kevin did a little google search on it And basically the term just means it's their facility charge. Whatever they want to charge for renting and typically is Was about eight to 12 percent with arranges Um for a car that's not even at the facility during the time of the rental So you rent a car for five days. You've got that 11 percent or whatever happens to be Feed as charged the whole time that car is being rented and off the facility Is there a facility charge now? Yes, burlington charges a four dollar facility charge a day Burlington just but they Are there or not regardless It car you can rent the car drive to new york city and come back in a week You pay four dollars a day for every day. That's charged by the airport. Correct So that did not need state approval. We get no local Wait, so the south burlington a carmenton's the airport. We get nothing has a four dollar Charge on it that goes to burlington And nine percent to the state in terms of tax Nothing to us right now. Yeah I don't know if the four dollars goes to burlington or to the airport Which I think it goes to the airport but I can find out because I think it it pays for the facility Burlington charger Charter has a little broader language about the operations of the airport And I think that legislate that's legislative authority that allows them to charge this fee So if you're not at the airport and you go to majestic on shoving road near the rotary, right? Do you know what they are what customers are charged there in burlington for a I don't know. Yeah, I don't know I didn't search. I looked at airport Yeah, and are we confident that that if we pass this that it wouldn't be challenged by burlington in some way Well, this is this is for all rental cars not just the ones at the airport Oh, I know so but the bulk of the rental cars occur at the airport. So would they see this as a there's no cost to them It's a cost to the rental car agency And the customer so again, it's actually to the customer right, but I mean do we have any municipally owned entities with another municipality Contradictions here or conflicts in statute that would then give Burlington the Possibly of saying you're going to give us half that five percent. I mean, I just I'm not aware of any Not I'm not aware of any for here. Yeah, but you never know. You never know what the come up. How many lawyers do they have? Anyway, so if you're confident, that's great, that's great That was just I asked I asked earlier Where the hell did this come from the short term car? I don't remember hearing about this at any time I missed one meeting and it was july 2nd It's if you look farther along though. Yeah You want to know where this really came from it came from driving an airport parkway And the problems were having with potholes after a thousand Trucks went on airport parkway for The last 18 months and have pretty much destroyed it. And so While the airport does pay taxes that go toward road maintenance The rental car agencies do not and so um since probably 90 of the cars are rented in in Vermont are in our community. They're on our roads our police officers and our Our emergency responders respond to the accidents here Um, we're saying since You know, we're at the end of the food chain again with all things airport and and commerce from there And it and it's time to get some compensation to to fix the impacts And this we can use for any though. This is for highway infrastructure. This is for high This is for paving repairing roads repairing base. What's the project annual income list? I don't I don't think it was in there Uh, we don't have a projection right now started to take a look, but we don't we're not sure yet. Yeah It's more than we get now. We we should be a look extrapolate though from to some extent from the state tax should Should it be then a percent or should it be per day? Can we do a per day right that didn't really come up when we're talking Yeah taxes traditionally aren't I mean a fee would a fee structure would be but This currently is phrased as a tax. I think initially the concept concept was, you know, sales Sales tax does not extend to rental cars Um, and a local options tax would not extend to or a local options tax doesn't extend to rental cars This is a in a way a an ask of the legislature to extend that to rental cars at least in south brunt Well, we probably should go with the five percent then If it's just on you rent the car in it's three hundred dollars for the week Rather than four dollars a day That's what the state does There's is a nine percent I got mixed emotions on it because I rent cars from time to time And I look at the taxes and I say damn how many taxes are there on this thing A lot of them try florida try to answer. Oh, I know. Well, that's what I'm referring to florida, especially Or your phone bill I guess we might just well jump on the bandwagon And indeed it does they do impact our roads. So I mean there's there's legit and our law enforcement says there's legitimacy to it So if we decide on On what to do here and we go with this option All we're doing is getting approval from the from the charter committee to go to the legislature and ask for the changes, right? You're getting a recommendation for a charter committee You make the Legislature to ask for the changes if we're given the changes we still don't have to do anything with them, right? We have to go to the voters first. No, we have to go to the legislature. No, you have to go to a vote first Then legislature then then back to the voters committee legislators and go Retarder changes. Well, yes, you you then have to go back to the voters to get the specific project approved I forgot the one step. I forgot the voters in the first place if if if no project is approved. The tax is never triggered, right? So I I still don't see That there's a sunset Service and retire any debt incurred. So you're implying That if there was a 20 year note and you did it within 10 years that you would do it for the full note Before the so however many projects you you know Approved within the 10 year time frame All those overlapping bond issues, you know, if they're staggered out, you know year year year and it lasts out to 23 years Let's say so you you effectively will have this tax for a long time Yeah, and we could probably reword it to make it More explicit if you if you wanted to I read it I I certainly want to go on record is not wanting to abuse this I would I support this for At the moment Potentially two projects that I think lend themselves to A broader community use and Attribute I think the rec center would be used Largely by south burlington, but other communities as we heard And I think the performing arts center would really be a regional draw I wouldn't vote for this thinking. Oh, yeah, and then we might want to Do something else that a Local option tax Isn't connected to enough. Well, we do have the bridge over the interstates And that that I that I think is I think that's another sort of regional connector and Support city center, but I mean, I don't really want to see this as oh a little pot of money to do whatever Next project comes along and and we don't want to ask the The Is to we have another meeting to decide And that's what I would want conveyed to the public that I don't see this as like an open-ended piggy bank Or the next 10 years and we can start support supporting all sorts of You know capital construction all over the city. I I think it really needs to be related to Um, at least the first one to things that really do Support, um the county and our community I have I have two concerns One is that if we put this before the voters Many voters are going to look at it and read it and think they're raising my taxes How to present it And get by that Always the question. That was yeah, I think it's a little bit bigger of a question But that was that was fairly clear this is This is a little fuzzier So I'm concerned about that and I'm a bigger concern as you get it to the legislature And you got the entire you know, the entire general assembly's ultimately got a vote on it And they don't have enough money to do what they want to do now They'll have more than well. They're looking at they're looking at 30% of They will but understand that the rooms and meals tax is already going to be under pressure Because it hasn't changed since I think 2003 I think may have been It's 2003 2004 somewhere back there. It's been 15 18 years before since it was last changed There's tremendous pressure on that And you know the legislature's going to look at this and say well, we're going to raise the rooms and meals tax Or they I think I mentioned this to a couple of you They split the rooms and meals tax because the overwhelming bulk of the meals tax is paid by vermoners And 90 percent of the room's tax is paid by out-of-staters And the legislature says we're going to leave the room the meals tax at 9 percent Because most of that is paid by vermoners by a long shot But we're going to raise the hotel tax to 11 percent and then all of a sudden we're sitting on a on a 13 percent hotel tax and That is that is a big enough tax to be a major problem because we've got a lot of large meeting facilities You know, we've got the double tree in the and the new delta and um, it's the double tree of burlington though Double trees in the south I know They always said Yes, but double tree of burlington but from a tax perspective When it comes to a group booking, um, you know, a half a million dollar piece of business I get your I 13 percent of a lot of money. So I'm concerned about the legislative piece of it, too I don't know how we're going to all I'm saying is I don't know how we're going to fair in a legislative battle Well, no, you won't know until you try but right it's I think I think it's it's going to be a it's going to be a real battle Well, just to share I mean, I I was concerned about the precedent setting and then in our 5 to 15 minute break there, um You know, we we spoke to a legislator john kalackie who who knows that there are other communities coming forward with the same idea And lots of communities have the local option tax already which which suggests to me that You know that the cat is out of the bad bag and it comes down then to me to You know the market really driving this and I I agree with helen that caution um and vision combined are required for this and and We're investing in a city center that is seen as an economic driver not only for south brillington, but for the region for the state And I do believe that this cultural center will contribute would contribute to that economic development Um, I believe the recreation center would contribute to the quality of life of the people in addition to the quality of life coming from the performing education center Um, and then of course the cycling across the bridge and walking so That's where the We need caution and vision what we're saying is I think we're all on the same page And we're saying caution and vision you get to the legislature, right and they're going to say We need money for what we want to do and we're not going to give the communities the ability to to take that money and And I'm going to say this isn't a little When we come to it if we don't ask them We will never get a yes. So if they say no, then you move on So should we go to the voters with this and and see what happens? I think we have another meeting to talk about We have to hearing right can I Can I just I thought um Maybe there's a way you can you can break One line out make it a new A or b or whatever that clearly states that This shall it take effect only after the voters Vote projects in so that Because you were saying you know clear crystal clear as possible and by breaking maybe a into two sections Might make that even clearer, but I know the voters turn the one into to break number one b1 into two separate sections Yeah, all right. Well, let's let andrew if this is Andrew could play with the words on that We just is that the interest of them? I don't know if that'd be a good idea, but I it might tell we need to decide tonight We'll take this up next Tuesday I have a question for tom right so If there's this time tim did you have a question? Yes, and then we'll take questions from the public or comments so tom best guess one percent Rooms and meals one percent sales tax in a year, right? What will it yield us after the state tax takes their portion? Do you think if we go by our FY 18 actual performance. Yeah, that'd be about 3.7 almost 3.8 million 3.8 million extra or total with the two that's our share So the state state gets our current share. Yeah, so i'm guessing another one percent would be about the same A lot of money. Yep, and the state out of the current project. I think it's about 1.1 million They're 30 right right right current 30 percent so an extra Three point something million a year. Okay For the one percent All right, and I and that's Before we get I hate to say this before we get a full year of targeted All right considering how much food and how much clothing is there right in terms of taxable, you know That wouldn't have been an 18 at all That wouldn't have been an FY 18 at all, right so I ask it just before we switch that subject, you know what the breakdown is rooms and meals versus sales on that percentage wise Yeah, the sales is much higher. Um, so i'm going to say roughly dave that Out of that 3.8 the sales is probably 2.5 2.6 Five thank you even 2.7 of that during the committee's discussion. I raised the question about We're at a stage where we are trying to encourage center center development and umal development and Will this extra one percent have a negative impact on the interest of businesses And the comment I heard back was well these additional facilities Will make this attractive to those businesses wanting to come here so You know, it's just something you have to consider as you're trying to expand city center and you mall Does this become a negative or more attractive because we're going to have more things for people to do when they get here I think if we want more restaurants, I think a performing arts center will It would be helpful. Yeah, but I think that's part of the conversation And maybe we can't put in the three things we think we might want to use this for in the Charter amendment, but clearly that's the conversation both with the Legislature because this is economic development 101 selling points to the legislation and to the Businesses in our community who are saying wait a minute. What is this for you got to make that case and then also to the public that convince them that Or let them understand that our intentions are which I know can change nothing's in in concrete or whatever but But our intent is for these these kinds of projects and not just a piggy bank And okay, and then I'll go to the public. Yeah So based upon when we first enacted the one percent which was seven years ago Hasn't been 10 years yet. Is it? Has it been a while Anyway, if it passes if we come to the point where we have to to have all the businesses at it, right Does anybody remember what happened when we first added it? Was there a rolling period where it took people time to Would you just said you got to be ready july 1st? You got to start charging in july 1st But you had no way of knowing if they did right because the state won't tell you All right I just was wondering if right if there was experience with a delay The age old question do they really talk about tonight? We're not good. Okay. Um, yes If you guys presented it to me saying okay You guys are going to have 10 years and you'll be able to decide in 10 years which projects you want to do I would say no If you present it to me like this is for this project and this project alone Then I might say yes, but if you put it as This is 10 years that you could decide other projects that you want to do and keep it going Automatically, I would say no if the voter decides though on the projects But it's just knowing you guys have that extra 10 years to say okay. Well now in five years now we want to do this project and then that's going to take another 10 years to pay that loan off and then you know because you still have that 10 years So then in nine years, you know once you've hit nine years Okay, now we have another project we want to put out there and you're going to be another 10 15 years with that loan As I'm just saying as a taxpayer I would automatically say no There's a practical limitation that we haven't talked about though, which is there There is there is a depth. There is a limitation on what we can finance and If you look at the two projects that have been spoken about tonight It's going to take up most of that and so Maybe that's the decision for the council. I understand what you're saying but These projects will probably be financed at either 20 or 30 years And if they take all of the debt capacity that the local option tax would yield It'll be past that 10 years anyway so Not to discount what you're saying at all But um, I'm just saying from some of our taxpayers point of view Can you identify yourself for the camera? I'm heather off there. Thank you heather What do I do? I'm a taxpayer Good question as we all she she makes good comments. That's what she does You're from south brookton. Yes, I'm from south brookton. Yeah Okay, and and I think that really is part of the conversation that that we have to have With the public to get them to understand what we're trying to do with this because I I agree just to If sort of unlimited taxing authority And I understand what you said kevin, but that's That's one of those really long conversations and the public can get lost in oh, it's like a tip explanation. Yeah. Yeah So are we um, we don't have to do anything. So this is we have another hearing next Tuesday on this is that right? Yeah, that's one. Yes. And then is that when we vote on it? That's when the warning will have to be okay Have to be ready to go tonight. Yeah. This is a good start Great. Thank you Fill with the wording a little bit. All right. Peter. Do you want to ask about anything? Oh, yeah During our meeting question came up Does the charter committee want to meet and work on anything else for the charter for the city? And I said It's always been my understanding that we were a subcommittee of the council in other words appoint us And that we worked off of your Direction as opposed to the chair of the Charter committee saying hey, let's have a charter committee meeting and what do we want to change? so That question came up and I guess it may be good Not right now, but whenever you want to just to Clarify how you see the charter committee functioning I guess Well, okay. I mean just that's pretty much that's kind of how I see it functioning Although I think if the charter committee Identified something for someone on the charter committee or someone in the public said to you, you know, I've been reading through the charter and this seems a little Crazy, you could come to us and say do you want us to look into it? And we could say that would be your way it would go as opposed to somebody coming to the chair of the charter committee and say Would you get the committee together and look at that? It has to go through. Is that what you're thinking? I Think I think so but I'm perfectly okay with people coming to the chair with ideas about how to improve the charter And then you come to the council and say these are the work on this that yeah, yeah, I think that is a good process Okay, clear All right. Thank you very much. I appreciate the speed with which you attended this Okay, moving on to because there's no other comments in the public. Okay Moving on to number item 10 other business We have two Little things from kevin. Yes the south burlington rotary clubs 2019 honors night and frederick h. Tuttle award is thursday january 24th From 5 30 to 7 30 a trader dukes Are are any members of of the council interested in going to that? I have class until Until just January it's at what time it's 5 30 to 7 30. I will not be here. I'll be in utah It's possible. I'd have to check on the iz open space committee I'd have to check if we're meeting every thursday we're meeting on thursdays apparently. Yeah, you are Yeah, okay, but but it might not be every thursday I think it's gonna be every other every other. Okay Lots of people going and you want somebody to go i'm going and it's held where It's going to be a trader dukes and i'm going and uh, and tom's going And tim said and tom tom chitin is a member Yeah, I would go if I was going to be here, but I'm not okay The other issue is let me know if you want to go because I ain't got to let them know Probably tomorrow or wednesday something the other question is uh, we've gotten a request from a uh From at least one Early childhood education provider in the city as it relates to impact or transportation impact fees And she has requested a meeting to talk about As a public policy issue Should we be um Promoting or otherwise enabling more uh early childhood education daycare type centers here and the Fees are so difficult In oppressive that it's difficult to start a new center Didn't we discuss this one? You did and you reduced you reduced the fee based upon a a different formula So we'd have to see the numbers. I'd have to see the numbers I think what we're asking for is whether or not a subcommittee of two of you would like to Participate in a meeting with the providers to understand what the issues are What do they want to do this? I'm going to be gone for about a week. Well, then the next few weeks I'd say well, I'll be happy to do that Anybody else interested in sitting on a subcommittee just to hear uh, hear the discussion If not, I'm a hill and We're going to sign tom He's not here And he's got he's got what it would have been and he has children. Yeah, I think it'd be one meeting I think it's just hearing them. Yeah, I'm happy to hear them. Okay. We'll try we'll try to work around generally confine time to Okay, thank you. So we can be two sets of ears Roughly good. I'll set that up Good. That's all I had. Okay. Is there any other business? Sure So tell Jennifer For more I have sent an email And this is more of a follow-up. I was told to come in and or Advise that I should come in and formally discuss our property being Requesting it to be exempt from interim zoning I know the information has gone through lots of times and I can read through this very lengthy letter Or we could just have the discussion. So I think I've kind of put the facts You know through multiple times, but at the end of the day this property that We were in the middle The town was hand in hand knew exactly what was going on with this and Part of the delay Was the city of south burlington not having approval on money to release funds They were supposed to close originally in june Then it was pushed off to august and then the actual closing happened in october Everything is hand in hand. Every contract that went along with this sale With bread and butter with bread and butter, which was with city of south burlington and land trust so on and so forth So it's confusing. There seems to have been a lot of confusion as to whether or not You know, we left this meeting We read the minutes. We received the emails. We listened to the other paper spoke to kevin everybody seemed to have the In situation that the augular lands were exempt From intern zoning. We started to move forward. We had our wastewater permit approved subdivision complete And money put into tradals and then it was There seemed to be a lot of confusion as to that piece so I guess it comes down to you know, if it is the board's, you know If the council is saying that they agree that They do not believe the properties should be exempt. I guess we would be kind of looking for an explanation Just as to why It doesn't seem clear to me to just say no, we we meant for it to be exempt I think we're looking for a little more information on that Yeah, I'll talk about the motion I made and I believe that The contract we saw that night listed the augular lands and that was Something that was brought to my attention During the meeting as we were all sitting here discussing. So when I made the motion I made reference to the augular lands from the language in the contract and that That language I think Was specified in the contract and Forgive me. I don't know the contract by heart and I'm trying to recall but there were three parcels A, B, and C and Forgive me if I'm not remembering correctly and so when I saw in the minutes that it said augular land I wanted it to be clear that it was augular lands because the s was in the contract I mean that was the issue as I understand that you brought forward that evening was that this contract Be held, you know held whole and be respected and that was my Definitely my concern As well since I voted To have city funds put toward the conservation Of the problem is that the way that it is right now. It's not left to be Conserved, you know the in-term zoning alone causes issues with the fact that You know, you don't when you sell a property I feel like south I understand that the conservation piece is very difficult and lengthy. Can I just interrupt? Yep Yeah So you can see that whole deal closed right with well it did but it's it's a it's like a huge piece and It's a it's a huge mess that it's but the but abnc closed Abnc closed the land before that or it was a part of the no So we couldn't subdivide we did subdivide but the deal couldn't go through until after you guys had Done the initial three could you subdivide until after the right because it couldn't be broken off Well, it was subdivided, but it couldn't be Separated couldn't be separated until after the sale of your The property that due to the Be due to Because if for some reason south burlington couldn't come up with the money and the deal went away It had to go to had to go back to but the the 16 acres was a 15 or 16 It's like 15 if you owned it, all right, you couldn't subdivide it before the deal was done anyway If it was in the language of the country it was attached to the original 117 acres that you guys own So we broke that off to make the deal go through That's the because to keep it concert in contribution the money wasn't there. I mean The eclairs had Developers come to them that offered quite a bit more But it was important to keep it conserved which you guys work with bread and butter to do so So to make that deal go through they had to Bread and butter couldn't put up the money that needed to be put up So the 15 acres the eclairs took that money back on Had it subdivided for The cost that it cost to subdivide, but the deal couldn't go through until you Had your check and bread and butter purchased the property for 117. So essentially the south burlington sale On october 5th had to occur before It was subdivided through DRB Purchase from the trust, but it couldn't stay it couldn't we couldn't put a pud or anything We couldn't do anything on the property because if South burlington backed out or couldn't get financing or whatever it may be they had to We had to be able to have the option to put that land would have been very It would have had to go towards a developer at that point It would have had to stay whole for them to be able to say okay. Here's the entire property So it was all in a whole status until south burlington could close on october 5th Which then made the transfer everything else october 11th the the other piece being that this other small property All of these were Tied together so that other small property we keep talking about heathers the In order for the land trust the parcel see a It has to be Subdivided because she that's where her sewer and her water are is on That other property that all comes together. So it's part of the agreement, but the city of south burlington Paul connor couldn't have a subdivide prior Due to some tdr issues that would occur by doing so So we again were put in a whole pattern on that and had to come up with a contract with city of south burlington and land trust and bread and butter to be able to hold This subdivision to not occur. So now that her home That's that's the house on the east side. That's right. Yes. Yeah, just basically cross from yeah Yeah, my grandparents old house in the blue. Yes, so that house is point Point three six acres and we I needed to be four and I already did all of the work with To have the The lines drawn out and everything else and I had talked to paul He had said there was no problems, but I couldn't do the subdivision because it would have messed With the actual contract in the end. So I had to wait Yeah, sorry, it's something about the trs needed to go from one side of the road to the other side of the road To conserve it to conserve it and so I know that this is all Does it occur in state the subdivisions already occurred now? Well, no, my subdivision hasn't occurred at all and I can't do the subdivision now even though I was promising Yes, she's in that you put her into the lockdown too. Yeah You can bring it to us We were I was told that because it's in the lockdown it can't happen until after you guys are done the lockdown Via lantern. No, no the process with Interim zoning is if someone wants to Have a zoning permit to do x y and z um, they can Come to the city council And we act as the drb Well, I think it starts with the drb We we are redundant with the drb, right? We work with the final decision rests with us. Yes Because that's what we did the last iz. There were three projects that came forward Even though they were under iz I know like for us We were very clear from like what we were going to do from the beginning And there was We are we're not I mean our wastewater permits for 16 bedrooms We're not talking about a development here. We're not selling the property staying as a whole It's a family 15 acres yes, right The 15 acres 16 acre right 15 acres four and we have a four acre or was it four or five acre? We didn't in the end. We didn't And so we have a bunch of money tied up on this currently Again, we closed october 11th And october 15th this occurred There's a whole bunch of confusion a whole bunch of money that's been placed into it and everyone's kind of in a I just feel it's very unfair. Um, we worked hand in hand with the city on this from day one And I don't feel I understand that we can continue with our putting more money into trudells and then come to you And say can we do this but there's then go through the drb but You know, we're we're kind of being cautioned over and over again not to put any more money into this if we weren't because Of how you um on this path, so Right, I I feel that Personally, that's my well, do you want it as a item for Next week up to you I'm not going to be here. You're not going to be here. No, okay It might What's the agenda like is it full again? Now? We just actually we just lost one item on the agenda For next Tuesday the audit So we have one less item on the agenda next week Do you mind Helen if you're not here? And then we'll have a further discussion on what we talked about tonight's issues. Yeah, just with the charter. Yeah Is that a possibility? We haven't sure I'm fine. I mean, I won't be here, but that's okay. I believe that I not unfortunately I can't call in But I can certainly listen and no phones. No, I'm going to be in a plane Is there stuff that would be helpful for like yeah for me because I'm Feeling dumb on this Because it's complicated. It is They wonder I'd say If you weren't out of interim zoning that fixes your sewer problem And does what for for you so we originally had again we had held this We had held this land That we were going to build, you know, we're building stuff for our families homes for the families on it And that's what's being held up Right and so how many homes so a total we're not really sure how it's going to be completely configured But it's a total of 16 bedrooms So this is what you've been working on for a long long time for like a year and a half bedrooms in three or four homes or five homes? Yeah, probably three Four homes. There's already a property on There's already a home there that we don't On the 15 acres, right? But we can't do anything with that property at this point not knowing what might happen Homes that you'll resell No, no, we want to we don't want we want to keep the property together the best views in this state And this is the plan before interim zoning is the plan for after interim zoning um, I think I would Is there any way you can bring like a drawing next week not that we haven't seen drawing But I haven't seen them in quite a few months Yeah, well I can show you on That you don't have that one printed We could defer this with yeah get more input in we would like to resolve this and help you resolve it But tonight we can't do that so Maybe you can We'll put it on the agenda Can you come we can talk to paul? I can certainly come maybe you can talk with Paul as well to um I already what kinds of information would be helpful To have at the meeting Would that be Does that make sense or not? Yeah, and I think I think that would be good because I guess for us The part we're not understanding is why we're not exempt, you know that so Again, and and I'm sure it is a matter of lots of Lots of people involved in lots of I understand you guys have a lot going on but you know, I think when we left the meeting There seemed to even be confusion From how we read things how kevin read things how paul read things and then that clarification idea So I guess no one was really quite understanding why we weren't exempt When it would when the original thing was you know It was for this contract and this contract was the reason for the exemption was for this contract And this contract involved all these pieces So why Works we accept This is the o'clair lands Had a definition in it and that was my motion Right I'm not saying around my house is owned by fromant land trust which would be contained in that parcel a And that's the part that I want to be able to subdivide off So technically around my house is still o'clair lands as is defined in parcel a So it should be Well, they definitely want you to have a septic system So if I remember quickly it's functioning Well, and I already had the contract with them ahead of time You know, I had the contract from outland trust and I'd already had the confirmation from paul in front of 10 lawyers That there was going to be no issues to come from south burlington and then a couple days later To find out that there's all these issues It's like well that was already presented. Well, let's try to get it resolved Monday or at least the tuesday at least have the first conversation with the facts and the people before us and we will um Do our best to figure out a Without raising any hopes right didn't andrew say that it's easy for us to Lesson the effect of interim zoning that increase it, right? So so exempting more property is an easy thing to do right, particularly if it's without raising Had we not delayed so long in the closing this would be a moot point exactly So that that's I think that's Yeah, but I don't think it was just south burlington. That was not my understanding It was actually the checks. It wasn't really clear. It was very complicated Well, I think that there was lots of pieces to it I know at least from what we kept hearing on our side was you know And it does kind of make sense because I know I was here at the meeting in the end of august september where it was actually being brought Here to the council for everyone to finalize that vote had gone through other committees prior so I know as of Hadn't gone to the vote for the city council for everyone else until late august early september time frame So we were supposed to have closed in june and right august before then so you know I'm it really was the meeting Well, and I I'm sure that there's other people other investors that maybe didn't have what they needed as well But it wasn't just the city south brunton, but there were quite a few partners in there So does that does that sound like that's yeah, and if I could just yeah And I'm happy to bring whatever information is helpful. I guess that's where I'm You know when we come in next time whatever it's helpful for me to bring it would be I can certainly do so Well, I think we've asked a few questions. You were talking about the plans The parcel a that's overlapping with visual Yeah, if you letting us see what the o'clair lands is You know the land we don't know the land Of what you what? You're indicating happened and why and what you want from the council and you get that to me by friday at At two I can send it out to the council in their packet. So they're They understand the issues in advance absolutely and then a map of the lands and Except what's exempt currently what's not exempt Yeah, I mean that you that from your understanding and then I guess the areas that you want to have some kind of Right. Yeah, whatever detail you have for what you're proposing Both for your property and then across the street. That would be helpful for the council to see absolutely Okay, so thank you. Are we done? I think so Okay, so motion to adjourn They get their clothes on and leave before we adjourn. We got a motion for adjournment all in favor In a second I'm in favor. Thank you very much. Get hungry. Who's favor you win? Gee wins I know but we did okay. We gotta at least end the meeting We're just gonna go Okay, I don't think it's gotten a whole lot warmer out. No, no, I don't think so Good luck next Tuesday. Yeah, they go right back down again 30 tomorrow. Yeah, they go right back down again a day later