 Fy angen i gael i gydion diwethaf ar gyfer 30 oedau gyrfaedd yng nghymru a Gŵr Fawr Cymru o'r newyd, y First Item of the agenda is consideration of whether we take item 5 in private. Item 5 is to consider the evidence we will hear on the circular economy bill. Are we agreed to take this item in private? We are agreed. Agender item 2 is the consideration of a draft statutory instrument, the vehicle, emissions trading schemes order 2023. This is a joint instrument between the Scottish, UK and Welsh governments. It is subject to affirmative procedure, and cannot come into force until it has been approved by the Scottish Parliament Welsh Senate and both has the UK Parliament. Felly, yn ddullur ar y parlym nesaf, yn ni'n meddwl, iawn i'ch cymryd yn cymryd i'r cymryd nesaf i nhw'r hyfforddiant yn meddwl ar yr instrument. Felly, gan gyrfaenau cymryd, mae'n meddwl i'ch cymryd pryd ystafell ar gyfer y rôl ffrifol. Felly, mae'n edrych i'ch cymryd i fathau ysgrifetigol ffyrraeth môl gyffredigol i'r cymryd i'r cyfalwyr i'r cyfryd i'r cymryd i'r cyfryd i'r cyfryd i'r cyflodydd Ysgolonais Nadalyn Milgan, yn deulch. Mornaith Cannon, Cymru Llywodraethriaeth Llywodraeth, Llywodraeth Gweithreth Menhael, Mae Gallai Cymru Llywodraeth yn digwydd fel ond, yn meddwl i'r cwestiwn gynlluniaeth gyrfa, fe gyda pob bod y Comit yw'r ysgolonais ysgolonais yn golybiad os ychydigawr gan meddal hwnnw, sy'n gwneud y cyfnyddwyd. Final hynny'n cael y cwestiwn gynlluniaeth ac yn dweud hynny'n digwydd iawn. under this item but not in the debate that follows. Cabinet Secretary, I am going to invite you to make an opening statement statement in the paperwork. There are a lot of TLAs, three-letter acronyms and simple four-letter acronyms but are very confusing, so I hope you'll keep it clear. Thank you, cabinet secretary. I'll do my best, convener. Thank you very much. I should just begin by apologising for the slight delay in getting started this morning. Thank you for inviting me to committee today to discuss the draft vehicles emissions trading schemes order, or as it is more commonly known, the zero emissions vehicle or ZEV mandate. We know that we urgently need solutions to support our journey to net zero and that critical to this is the decarbonisation of transport. Transport is the largest contributor to Scottish greenhouse gas emissions making up 29 per cent of all emissions in 2019 and with road transport contributing 66 per cent of those emissions. It's critical that the Government does its utmost to ensure that everyone has options for cleaner and greener ways of getting around and that without that in a way that is cognisant of their way of life. Jointly working with the UK Government, the Welsh Government and Northern Ireland's Department for Infrastructure, I'm bringing forward the draft vehicle emissions trading scheme order for your consideration today. The schemes will put legal obligations on to car and van manufacturers in the UK to sell zero emissions vehicles each year and for a percentage of their sales to constitute zero emissions vehicles, ramping up from 22 per cent of all those sold in 2024 to 80 per cent of new cars in 2030. In parallel, the CO2 standard scheme for the new non-zero emissions cars in vans will help to drive down the emissions of the manufacturers new petrol and diesel van fleets so they work in parallel and bearing down in different directions. The cost benefit analysis estimates that through these schemes alone there would be 420 million tonnes of carbon dioxide in carbon emissions savings across the UK by 2050 and the figure for Scotland alone is around 40 million tonnes of carbon. I would just bring to the committee's attention that it is intended that there shall be a midpoint review to monitor the implementation of them, sorry, and it's intended that this will be done on a four nations basis and be published in quarter one of 2027. We know that the Climate Change Committee supports the introduction of the schemes. They've highlighted how important they are, stating that the switch to EVs is the single largest driver of future emissions reductions and adding that the Zev mandate will be vital in delivering these savings. We know that it's critical for everyone in every part of Scotland and we've been cognisant of that when designing this, so we have asked for the inclusion of analysis on the impact on remote and rural communities in the cost benefit analysis. While it's done on a four nations basis, this was something the Scottish Government was able to ask for and to have done. And also, of course, we're bringing this forward in the context of the Prime Minister's recent announcements to push the UK ban on non-zero cars and vans back from 2030 to 2035. My colleague Julie James, in the Welsh Senate, noted that the Zev mandate is a way to provide certainty with that change having taken place and, as she put it, to hold the UK Government's feet to the fire. I hope that we can all agree that this shift to net zero cars and vans is a really important part of how we move to a just transition to net zero and I would ask the committee to endorse the draft legislation. Thank you. Thank you, cabinet secretary. Just so I understand it, with the UK Government changing their target to 2035, they're still signed up to this and so they will be dealing with this exactly the same way as Wales and Scotland. Is that correct? That's correct. In the days after, I think it was in the days after the Prime Minister's announcement, we continued to work with UK, Wales and Northern Ireland executive on this and, in my view, this will be a helpful way to reintroduce the certainty that the Prime Minister's announcement removed. My other standing just so I understand it, it's quite complicated and thank you for all the examples and the formulas to work out who gets charged for what. If a manufacturer produces a vehicle and reduces the CO2 emissions below the standard that it was before, technically what it's saying is that it won't be penalised for that. In fact, it could produce more up until the limit that has been set has been reached, is that correct? It works in two different directions on the sale of zero emissions vehicles as a percentage of total is quite straightforward. The other part of it, bearing down on the emissions for the non-zero vehicles, is a little bit more complicated but I have taken some time to formulate an example that I can give to the committee if that would be helpful. Any example to illustrate this would be helpful. We had lots in the paper work that was produced and just as I thought I tied it down it seemed to move. Perhaps if you could give me an example it would be very helpful. The ones that my officials and I have worked out and I will read it aloud and perhaps we can pause and take questions in any part of it that you might wish clarified. If manufacturer A has a target of 140 grams of CO2 per kilometre driven across their whole fleet of new cars and that's based on their average that was registered in 2021. In 2024, if they sell and register 10,000 new cars with average emissions of 140 grams of CO2 per kilometre, they're allocated 1.4 million allowances by the administrator based on that 20-21 average. If the average emissions of those 10,000 new cars sold were 130, then they would have a surplus of 100,000 allowances and then they could then trade those surplus allowances to other manufacturers or convert them to credits in the Zeb mandate car scheme and that's a similar model on that cap and trade model for emissions trading schemes generally and I was here not that long ago discussing some of the developments in emissions trading scheme generally but that's how it will work and of course that's just one part of it, the other part being that overall percentage of cars sold having to gradually increase to be 80% zero emissions by 2030. My final question before I open it up to the rest of the committee is car manufacturers are happy with this and understand it and once they see it move forward at pace is that what you're going to tell us? Yeah well largely I mean I would say from a Scottish perspective we do not have domestic car and van manufacturers in Scotland, we do have Alexander Dennis but buses are not part of this scheme so for a Scotland perspective that's not been something that we've had to look particularly closely at although colleagues in the four nations have. What we have done though is we've got 10% of the dealerships in the UK and Scotland and we've reached out to them, we met with Arnold Clark recently, they raised no concerns but we've agreed to keep in touch with them. Another particular Scottish interest in business has been a company alliance Allied vehicles who are specialists in converting non-zero, so standard fuel, petrol and diesel cars into wheelchair friendly and they have raised some concerns about how they will operate within the new allowance system so what we've done is we've set up a working group with them as part of it with the four nations, we recently met, we set terms of reference and we've agreed to monitor the impact of the scheme on their ability to continue retrofitting cars to be wheelchair compliant. Okay thank you, I'm looking around the table at Douglas. Thanks community, I just want to ask, I'm looking at Transport Scotland's website just now and it says by 2030 we will phase out the need to buy new petrol and diesel cars and vans, so just to confirm, has that changed now to 2035 to be in line with the rest of the UK? It hasn't changed, it's an absolutely reasonable observation, so all of this and all of our primary transport policies are under consideration as part of the development of the climate change plan. Our commitment to phase out the need for petrol and diesel by 2030 hasn't changed, I should point out that Scotland doesn't have the power to ban so it is very much about phasing out the need, I think that this ZEV mandate will contribute really positively to that with more zero emissions vehicles being available, prices being driven down etc but of course we need other, it's sort of the floor to our ambition rather than the ceiling and there will be other policies that we will bring in to support that phasing out the need by 2030 including model shift and our 20% reduction in car kilometres driven, so it will be a package of measures of which this is an important part. So just to confirm, your target is still for by 2030 although legally it's not going to be till 2035, is that correct? Scotland doesn't have the power to ban, the UK has recently agreed that it will put its ban back from having been in line with ours to be 2035, we will still aim, it's still our aim, to achieve having phased out the need for a new fossil fuel car by 2030 albeit that is five years in advance of a UK ban. So you'll encourage people to really make this switch by 2030, so if that's the case will the charging infrastructure be in place by 2030 to enable people to make that switch if they want to? Yes, so it's absolutely about encouraging, it's about creating the circumstances where it's possible for people not to have the need to buy a new fossil fuel car and as regards charging infrastructure absolutely I completely accept that that being, that growing will be absolutely required to support this transition towards zero emissions vehicles currently as you will have heard me say a number of times we are in a good position we department for transport statistics did recently restate that Scotland has the second most comprehensive public charging network in the UK outside of London we have invested tens of millions of pounds in that and my colleague Fiona Hyslop recently announced our new vision for public charging in Scotland which will look to take us to 6,000 public charging points by 2030 with 60 million pounds of investment some of that public some of it leveraging in private and we're working we're in the early days of working with local authorities just now on their plans and how to do that so 6,000 by I'm going to be a little bit difficult here is that this is about the vehicle emissions trading scheme and and you have neatly segued into a subject about electric vehicle charging modes now the cabinet secretary has been minded to us I think you're pushing a wee bit on the envelope of the agenda so if I could drag you back gently to the trading scheme I think it would be helpful I was really confused I just tried to work out how we'd actually get to the scheme that we've got to lead out in front of us but I will I will stop there thank you does anyone else have any questions okay thank you very much so we'll now move on to agenda item 3 which is a debate on the motion calling for the committee to recommend approval of the draft vehicle emissions emissions trading schemes order 2023 I invite you cabinet secretary to speak and move to the motion sorry move the motion and thank you convener I'm move the motion thank you very much is there any members of the committee want to make a contribution so cabinet secretary no one does the question is do you want to make a sum up or are you happy to leave it where it is at the moment I'll I'll leave that thank you thank you very much so the question that we come to is motion s6m 11 0 6 1 in the name of Murray McAllum be approved are we all agreed yes we are agreed I'm just uh waiting to see if Mark Ruskell is is agreed just just sorry just there is a technical problem with it okay from uh earlier conversations I think we can uh accept that we are agreed the committee will report on the outcome of this instrument in due course and I invite committee members to delegate authority to me as convener to finalise the report for publication are you happy that I do that thank you very much and thank you cabinet secretary and your officials for attending this morning and I'm now briefly going to suspend the meeting before our next item thank you welcome back our next item of business is an evidence session with local authority leaders and waste management stakeholders as part of our stage one scrutiny of the circular economy bill I'd like to welcome Sarah Boyack and Murdo Fraser who are joining us at the meeting today I'm sure there'll be some questions from you at the end our first panel I would like to welcome Stephen Freeland who's the policy advisor for Scottish environmental services association true Murdo the chair for resources management association Scotland councillor Gail McGregor yet I can see their leader of Dumfries and Galloway council an environment and economy spokesman for COSLA and silka ease brand who is the policy manager for the environment and economy team from COSLA and Rhoda Gunn here in her role as the portfolio lead for waste management for the society of local authority chief executives and senior managers she is also the deputy chief executive economy environment and finance for Murray council thank you for joining us today before we go any further I just want to ask if there's any declarations around the table yes Jackie you'd like to make a declaration thank you convener just to declare my interest as a former local councillor for Aberdeen City I still was at the start of the session thank you and Douglas you want to make a declaration thanks community and I was also a councillor Aberdeen City council at the start of this session that's declared my register of interests okay thank you very much I think we've led just over an hour for this session so there are a series of questions quite a big panel of five people so you might not all get to answer all the questions that are put to you but I'm going to start off with an easy one and I'll probably come to just to warn you Gail first and then if anyone else wants to come in on it they can raise their hand so what are the key areas where a circular economy strategy and national targets could help local authorities and the waste management sector Gail thank you convener and good morning members I'm having connection issues so if I vanish I'll be back as quickly as I possibly can I think the crucial thing to say at this point is that the local government very much welcomes the circular economy bill I think it will give opportunities to local authorities to enable us to manage our waste in particular in a better way Gail can I just can I just pause you slightly sorry I'm just probably because of my previous existence firing tank guns I'm quite deaf and I'm finding that quite difficult to hear could we turn the volume up just a wee bit and sorry Gail to interrupt you no that's fine is that better it's getting better better yeah better yeah that's perfect thank you very much yeah you've just thrown me completely off my my track now yes as I say local government very much welcomes the circular economy bill and I think it will give us great opportunities to look at the way that in particular we manage waste and the crucial thing for us will be in the co-design of the implementation and the strategy going forward and I think we need to look to the opportunities and crucially within that obviously behavioural change within our communities and the individuals that we serve will be pivotal in communicating with them and consulting with them to find out the best ways of doing things will be absolutely pivotal we do have some issues around various parts of the circular economy bill but I would say that our board is widely welcome with the direction of travel with it if there are specifics that you want detail on obviously silka and rona can do that and I'm sure that the debate will open up into more specific areas as we go forward thank you steven do you want to come in on that particular point yeah again from the waste management industry perspective very supportive of the boom it's just the opportunity we need to make the step change from stagnating recycling rates which we're facing at the moment so hopefully it will help us get things back on track and there's one thing in the in the strategy again I think welcome the proposals for our strategy but one thing I think we like to see is bringing in the economic debate argument so the circular economy strategy shouldn't just be parked within environmental division departments we need to be more closely aligning it with economic opportunities we all know about job opportunities the boost the economy so I think we'd like to see it of a broader church of different departments involved in putting the strategy together and it's influencing other decision making elsewhere okay I'm going to pose another question now it's just a very easy one to answer what we've been what I've seen in when we did a couple of our visits that people were complaining there were 32 different local authorities across Scotland with 32 different recycling schemes and bins to match those schemes should we have a cross scotland thing say when I go from one place to another I know what to put in my bins and they're all the same colour or the all consecutive colors what raider do you want do you want to have a rounder do you want to have a go on that one thank you convener yes I think it is a fair observation that schemes and approaches vary across the 32 local authorities in Scotland but that is because the demographic challenges and geography are significant factors in terms of how waste collection systems are managed and constructed so for example waste collection processes that will work in a an urban environment and kerbside collection that's suitable for example in a location like Elgin will not work in a city environment where there simply is not space on the street to have a selection of seven different bins for different recyclates there are particular challenges arising from rurality particularly in an island's context and from communal settings and it is largely in light of that that this differentiated approach has arisen across Scotland one of the aspirations in the code of practice is to introduce a degree of standardisation where authorities agree that that is helpful and that will work for the challenges that they face in their particular area but of course the idea of local by default is a crucial element of the verty house agreement and we are all very conscious of the fact that above and beyond everything else we have to meet our local needs and ensure that our consumers and businesses can dispose of their waste in a way that works for them okay I'm just slightly struggling to follow that in the sense that I understand local is important but but surely if we all knew exactly what we were to put into each bin and the bins were reduced I think there's less bins in Edinburgh and you can do multi recycling I certainly know Murray if you're lucky enough to have recycling bins not everyone does in Murray that there is a plethora of colours which may be different to other councils are you saying that you accept that's wrong and we might have to rather than recycle all the bins put a sticker on saying this is blue or this is green so that we all work on the same system I don't know what I don't know what the solution is around it do you want to just come back briefly on that I think that some authorities operate a co-mingled system and some authorities offer greater segregation at Kerbside but Kerbside segregation doesn't work in all settings so Kerbside segregation doesn't work at nearly as effectively in common all settings and as I said in a rural environment it's difficult to cost effectively pick up seven different bins so there are different challenges that have to be accommodated in the waste systems that are set up in each authority I think everyone is signed up to having standardised systems in so far as they meet local needs but local needs do dictate elements of our waste collection processing and at the moment there is quite a significant emphasis placed on rationalising our processes for Kerbside collection but there is an argument that co-mingled collections might work more effectively in some settings so I think collectively we want to see better collation of evidence of what works well in some areas and what works less well why so that when we embark on co-production of the code of practice which is the objective of both COSLA and in Scottish Government that we are doing that from an accepted evidence base okay the deputy convener ben wants to come in Ben thank you convener and just on this thematic point about the balance between standardisation and co-mingling kerbside and curbside segregation there was some evidence that we heard on one of our visits to a recycling centre that the most helpful way of segregating would be three different aspects glass then plastics and metals as the second group and then the third group as paper and cardboard that would that be a standardisation that would at least from a high level be a useful consistent approach that we could have across the country to to lead to a higher rates of recycling who are you going to direct that to I don't know if perhaps as Ronan Gunn has been speaking about it if you want to come back but if if Stephen Freeland or Drew Murdoch would like to add to that it'd be interesting in their views too thank you. Drew's indicated he would and Stephen so you've I would be happy to add to that and I get what Ronan Gunn is saying there and she's got some valid points but what you've got to look at for recycling is where is the material going so where is the end destination to it so there's no point in doing a co-mingled collection for example if you don't have a facility in that area that can separate the co-mingled materials so you've either got to do it's all curbside collection at the end of the day so you either need to look at the single sources but you need to look if you're talking about circular economy and keeping it local and doing all that kind of things you've got to identify where the material is going what how that material needs to be delivered to the plant and obviously tailor that to as close to that as you can get so that you're not doing a co-mingled say if you were doing cans plastic and glass and there's only one plant you know if you're doing that in Aberdeen and the plant is in Livingston that can separate that material you're trunking it to Livingston so that's a nonsense you're bypassing you know maybe three or four facilities that could as you say take the plastic and the metal so keep glass separate so that's what I would say is the is the sort of fundamental aspect of it look to where the material is going look at what facilities and what plants are there to sort it as best possible and then work back from there just to add to that so yeah we're very supportive of that provision in the bill around consistency of collections just for the points that have been raised and I think the important thing is to try and standardise the range of materials that are being collected I think that's probably the primary point and then where we can try and standardise the means of collections and there probably will be a bit of variety between different areas for some of the reasons it's known as identified but yeah it's not all about it's not all about this collection we can't just collect stuff for the sake of collecting it as drew a little to there we need to think about what's further downstream what's the configuration of the the material recycling facilities are they designed to take it the vast majority of fleets of mirfs material recycling facilities are getting a bit old now so this is probably an ideal opportunity to start looking at them to start considering how they're going to be aligned with the consistency of collections upgrades will probably be needed to existing ones or new ones might be built to spec but the greatest thing is really what are the demands of the end markets for them reprocessing once it's been collected sorted we're looking at the reprocessing putting it back into the as a raw material back into the economy so what do they need what kind of specification do they need and we should be designing around all these different actors rather than just the front-end collection round it do you want to come back in only check convener to endorse that point about how crucial the the market environment local authority waste collection systems operate in is because that ability to access local processors and reprocessors and and the way your processes interact with what is a very dynamic recycling market market are absolutely crucial in terms of the impact on local government finances even in my way we see our recyclet income going from a positive income to a deficit depending on how the markets are performing so those are our crucial points to consider in putting together any approaches to standardisation and we have to do an element of forecasting about how markets are anticipated to be performing in the future so that we can design systems and processes together that play to you know that anticipated future position thank you yeah and i think that's what we heard that if you put a value on the on the stuff that's put for recycling you'll see the industry develop to make sure that they can develop that market monica i think you've got some questions you'd like to thank you and good morning to our panel yeah councillor migregor you opened your remarks by saying that there are there are opportunities with this bill and you talked about the importance of co-design and implementation and strategy so with that in mind it became to hear from our panel today aside from its obligations and role in waste management how else local authorities can contribute to a circular economy i think steven freeland touched on the economic side of it in terms of jobs and that opportunity locally but what are the examples and opportunities do you see and planning comes to mind public procurement but in terms of that co-design work and that more granular work what are the kind of issues you would like to see covered in the bill going forward maybe come to councillor migregor first but keen to hear from others thank you very much mama good morning yeah as i say i think there's a lot of opportunities in there what we need to be mindful of as well is that there are some areas which are going to be slightly problematic for local government and obviously as we're working through the design the circular economy bill in and of itself which is our is our target and much of the bill is very much around waste and there's no getting away from that so other elements of the bill are welcomed and will be valued but that from our perspective the waste direction is the area that we very much have focused on and we've focused on that in our submissions as well so i think the key thing for us is to work very closely with the minister we have that commitment i've met with her on a number of occasions and i think there is a genuine desire for co-production and partnership within the development of of the strategic operational elements of the bill but we are mindful that there is the potential for penalties for local government which is problematic for us obviously and as i said earlier on what we need to be doing is trying to introduce behavioural change within our communities and the key thing that we found through waste right along the way is that if we can take our communities with us they sign up to it very quickly and people are very very exercised by having their bins empty whichever colour the bin may be so there are a few things that we do need to iron out in the waste area and obviously funding we will probably come to another point but i think the opportunities that are there and how we bring private business with us and response ability of the producers as well will be incredibly important and that's why i think it's vital that that co-production with the minister and other partners will get us to where we need to get to but it has to be a genuine desire for co-production. Thank you so could you want to add to that? Sorry thank you sorry yes absolutely supporting what councillor McGregor has put forward there and just to add and possibly remind people that that we produced the waste think piece you know some time ago and actually one of the points we made in this one is that the curbside collection that councils undertake obviously tie into the whole picture of what happens post collection and that's something that that was referred to here in the debate earlier on so i think the the the huge opportunity here is to actually have a very constructive discussion which can then take place through co-production in making sure that all these processes tie into each other um Ronagann referred to it earlier on as well kind of like what happens what happens um you know at at the back of the collection um be it you know materials going through moths materials going into energy from waste facilities or into different sorting facilities and the and the local markets and what is missing for local government um a little bit at the moment is that um there isn't any um certainty about which materials um would create which income streams um which materials um if they were separated more tightly would have local markets so the co-production is a real opportunity to tie up some some some connections here more more more tightly thank you um does anyone else want to add to that i've got a slight supplementary question but um any other points that could be made around public procurement so i suppose what i'm wondering is there's lots of challenges particular around behaviour change when we think about all of the aims of circular economy so in terms of you know procurement for example is that a tool that will be useful to local government anything she wants to add at this point maybe rona could contribute no that that's fine if there's nothing further i'm just want to don't want to miss anyone who's online it's sometimes hard to see if people want to to answer okay i'll move on um want to turn to disposer of unsold goods um i wanted to ask what evidence do you see of disposer of unsold goods in your provision of services to businesses um wonder maybe if steven or drew would want to come in at this point um yeah i think um from my reading of the bill this is more likely to be going to be aimed at the the retailers and and such like so um but from our perspective again we we support that um that provision um i think there's the focus should be on the higher carbon impact materials so things like food waste and textiles so these need waste streams make up a relatively small proportion of the total weight of all the waste that we produce but from a carbon impact i think they're about over 30 percent each um so it's just ludicrous that these materials are just being landfilled if they've been unsomed other things like are the electrical items with obviously the viable rare earth metals and such like so um yeah we we definitely welcome a lot more transparency around this um and there must be with the cost of living crisis and such like there must be better opportunities to divert this material elsewhere okay thank you there's your questions okay perfect uh check here i think you've got some questions you'd like to ask yes um i'm going to direct my questions to steven or drew but if anybody who's online wants to come in please just raise your hands um i'd like to ask around you you were discussing that you were saying earlier that some um waste is more problematic than others um sorry i think it was the panel online that was saying that but um how would you like to see those um tackle through the through the bill um especially you know we've not discussed it yet but there's there's a proposal about single use charging as well i'd be interested to hear your views on that would that be in regards to sort of sort of single use vapes and such like or along those lines or just to clarify i think we're probably going to be going to be discussing those as well so but i was thinking more of the line of single use cups but if you've got an opinion on single use vapes i'd be very interested to hear to hear on both to be fair they should be banned i don't know if i'm allowed to say that is that cups or vapes or both probably both no um yes i mean single use cups they will eventually inevitably end up in the general waste so they will go to you know waste the energy and the recycling value of them is not particularly great um do we need them we probably don't you know if uh if they weren't there on offer then i'm quite sure there would be you know long term multi-use situations available so again if it's a bit harsh maybe but if a ban was brought into that because it will go you know straight from the the coffee shop so to speak um served its purpose and go straight in a bin so and generally that's street sort of bins essentially if it's a if it's a on the go one so yeah i mean that's just waste energy so it's a resource that's been you know created produced you know used once and wasted so i don't i technically don't agree with them i think there's probably better solutions to that the manufacturers of those cups may not agree with us and that's a different matter but yes i think the single use should be really targeted in me because i don't think there's a need for anything really to be single use sorry just we just on that you you didn't answer on the vapes which you offered an answer for it might come up later but the single use cups i understand yep the vapes is an easier one because they're dangerous as well indeed yes single use vape for a health perspective you know i do i do vape myself so it's slightly better than smoking 60 a day but it's it's also addictive as well so i'm trying to kick the vape and i don't use the single use ones to use the the refuelable but the single use ones again i don't see a point there's there's there's the option for the the reusable ones so they should be the first point of call there should be possibly a deposit return scheme system and there's enough vape shops going about so there should be a sort of take back scheme along those lines and those people could be actually you know dealing with a proper waste contractor to dispose of these items in a sensible manner and that would essentially work with the the single use ones as well which may be a compromise and but again you're you're using a lot of resources just to make these and then discard them so i don't technically agree with them on that or would you like to push on that just a wee bit no i'm very happy to give i mean my problem is with single use vapes is i see a lot of young people using them probably too young to actually buy them so if you actually i mean you've only got to go into him and that's on a on a normal day after school to see whether where young people are queuing up to buy them they're hardly going to give them back to get a return back if they shouldn't have bought them in the first place so it's an interesting argument not one that i would help with but to follow on from that the idea of because it's i think it's the batteries that are the biggest problem and my other half's used vapes for 10 before they were even fashionable and it got them off smoking so i do actually see the benefits of them but i think the single single use vapes are totally different see even can i go go to you before because i realize my next question is actually going to be what would you simply ban but i think i've already got your answer drew so i'm seeing a few if you would like to come in yeah it's just going back to your usual question on the the charges and so there is a provision in there for charging and single use items and some of the the rhetoric on the the company route map was around coffee cups but trouble with charge i mean as drew alluded to there that the trouble is it's difficult to recycle these items and a charge wouldn't necessarily address that because you would 10 pence 20 pence but you still got this item which you can't do everything with so yeah i would actually some items i think would need to be banned i think that's going to be a harder ask given the given the contractor on that and we've always said that some of the more problematic niche wasterooms should fall under as a deposit return i wasn't sure it would be as Scott has often mentioned a deposit return i don't know if i'm going to use that word anymore but i think it does have a value for problematic niche wasterooms such as things like small items with batteries and vapes and such like that but yeah the charge aspect i think needs to be looked at probably to make sure it actually delivers a recycling solution at the end of the week and is there any other i mean we're speaking about single use just now but is there any other waste streams that maybe isn't the single use that you would that you would feel is problactic because i'm also aware that we're always looking at the consumers to do something when sometimes it should be the manufacturers taking some responsibility for these things or is that the most problematic waste stream for us is anything that's got a battery in it so anything anything the lithium battery is now just turning up in the wrong place and it's causing fires on the collection vehicles it's causing fires in the plants it's coming even at going through an energy from waste process it's still coming out at the back end so the anything with i think needs to be far greater scrutiny and better measures put in place for the proper return and recycling of any items with a lithium battery okay thank you if you've finished i've got monica wanting to come in and i think gail is is keen to make a contribution so gail i'll bring you in and then i'll come to monica thank you very much and i entirely agree with you about that the health implications and young people with single use vapes and i think stevens probably covered some of the points that i was going to make obviously we need to look to the consumer again for behaviour change and preferably the carrot rather than the stick initially but i think if we think back to when carrier bags in supermarkets were first imposed with fees there was a bit of a furor about that and actually the public generally accept now that they pay for a bag or they take one with them and behaviour has changed with that and just going back to the disposable vape we are having issues now in local authorities where as steven said the risk of fire is beginning to impact on council's abilities to ensure their mechanical biological treatment plants and insurance fees are increasing exponentially in some local authorities and that risk is very much wired in now to our waste strategies and the additional costs that that incurs so i think that councils would very much welcome some intervention in that single use vapes based because they are becoming incredibly problematic and dangerous thank you gail monica thank you yet on the back of jackie dim bars questions i'm keen to hear what the panel think of single use nappies in the context of the circular economy bill we know that a small number of local authorities i think northeas are the best example where they offer a free to access reusable nappy scheme and that helps with environmental issues reducing landfill but also helps with cost of living as well and it may be feeding with that behaviour change piece that councillor McGeigar spoke about could this bill help to reduce the reliance on single use nappies and help to build up the supply chain in scotland but also get that that behaviour change i think the panel are talking about um maybe come to colleagues in the room first and of course i want to give a view on that i could give my opinions could i say that yeah drubardwch's opinions are not necessarily the opinions of rms no a joke um it's behaviour change um and i'm a great believer if you look to the past you'll find where our future is and you know if you go back 30 40 years ago there wouldn't be such a thing as a single use disposable nappy and i'm quite sure our parents and grandparents and such like you know we'd use a towel in ones with a you know stab the child with a safety pin and flush it down the toilet nappies in the waste industry are just a horrendous thing i mean they are just you know waste energy and they're just a you know that i don't even know how many will be will go through the waste cycle in a daily basis but that's behaviour change so i'm not an expert in how you change the behaviour of people but the society that we're all living today is all very fast very quick you know what's quick and easy and quick and easy damages the environment and you know that's for your prepacked food in your supermarket to your you know to pretty much the way we live our lives so it is that behavioural change it probably starts at school it should come it should come right through the education system how you do that incentive i'm not entirely sure but i'm quite sure you know the big nappy brands and what have you would be very unhappy about any changes to that but i think it is a is a very good point and it's something that should be forced on i mean there are within the bill targets around reduced and reuse so maybe once the secondary legislation comes on it might want to target something like that but yet it's a huge issue for contaminating the recycling people are putting them in the recycling the trouble is the messages we're sending out to people as much as you can so people quite often just don't understand what can and cannot go in the blue bin so they are contaminating recycling once they're coming through the system and unfortunately just a whole load could be a whole batch could be contaminated by that so anything we can do to as i say go down the reuse option i think we should uh should embrace and adopt it okay i'm keen to come to council McGregor but just to add to that you know purchasing cloth nappies or reusable nappies that can be quite expensive for families so understand why people would go to supermarket and buy the alternative but the schemes that i'm talking about particularly the north ayrshire one that's free for residents to access but the council says it's cost neutral because of the savings with landfill costs but i do understand there's now a waiting list so that's encouraging in the one hand there are a demand for these products but local authorities may be a struggling to keep up with that demand right now but keen to bring you in councillor McGregor thanks very much Monica it's not a scheme that i'm particularly familiar with but i think that it's a good example of what councils can do in an innovative space around that recycling or reuse and as you say nappies are a huge issue i have three children under 14 months at one point so i'm very familiar with single use nappies i'm afraid and i do think it comes down to incentivising making it easy for the parents or carers to dispose of or reuse and financially incentivising as well and i think a huge amount of responsibility for this does sit with the producer and i think that that's the case with many of the things that we're discussing today that that we can deal with it at the waste end but what is the producer and companies doing to actually you know get that behavioural change at the front end and as we all know you know they're about profit and we're about public service so until we can you know get them to become a bit more responsible in many ways whether it be packaging in supermarkets or single use nappies we have to deal with the end part of that process and but i think councils are very innovative and and if there's schemes like that one then other councils should be looking at that and replicating it and we're very good at benchmarking and seeing where there is good practice elsewhere thank you silka do you want to come in yes thank you thank you convener yes just wanted to add sort of like at the back of what gail has been saying here and very much sort of like you know welcoming the question um that was post um you know asking you know whether we should look beyond just always at the consumer um to to to to to to deal with all the challenges um we're facing here so again to come back to what we've said in our thing piece is that we are very keen um to see interventions earlier up the earlier up the chain so to say um so the extended you know schemes like extended producer responsibility producer take back schemes these these are very effective mechanisms um to ensure that um that responsibility for what becomes waste is taken by by producers um or by distributors um we are at the moment very much involved in the extended producer responsibility for packaging and we can you know we've almost already got a model here obviously it's a uk wide system but we've already got a model here of how these things can work um and um you know some of the problem problem problematic material sorry that have been flagged up by mattresses for example so um another example is that um the difficulties that local authorities find themselves in at the moment with the with the with the pops the persistent organic pollutants which are very much found in soft furnishings which which produce enormous costs in terms of separating them out of the waste stream and dealing with them differently so again a huge cost arising here for local authority essentially therefore for the taxpayer which could be addressed much further up the chain okay thank you i think the deputy convener's got some questions uh ben thank you convener um just moving on slightly to a related but slightly different area from what we've been discussing um you'll appreciate that some stakeholders when they've been engaged with us on the process of this bill particularly businesses have been cognisant of the the considerations around alignment of a uk wide approach where possible when powers in the bill are to be used just being mindful of the situation with the deposit return scheme and um the internal market act so i just wondered if any of you had any feedback that you would like to share with the committee around um if regulatory divergence within the uk affects your sector and if there's anything that you you would like to bring to our attention with regard to any of that just now yeah um you regularly trade divergence is a problem of for the for the industry so just for business continuity and planning such like so um the big change i think for us is going to be under epr extended producer responsibility we're all pinning our hopes on epr as being the big step change that's going to um improve the recycling situation um so i think that has been led at a uk level and i think the scottish government has been as heavily tapped into that but also from other perspective as well scotland is a small country the way that we're producing the materials we're presenting to the market are quite small so anything we can do and it feeds into some of the discussions we've had already around consistent collections and such like we want to produce as much material in a consistent bulk top state which makes it more attractive for the reprocessing market and to attract investment as well um so some of um the some of the investments and some of the facilities we're going to be building won't all be local someone will be a nationality don't need our plastic reprocessing reprocessing facility in every local authority area whereas some of the things are a maybe reuse repair that might be a bit more local so um so i think we do need to be conscious of the national picture we also again need to keep an eye on what's going on in europe as well and for example the um that the plastic tax um we want to ensure as much part of the party as possible across the board to ensure that um if for example that plastic tax might be higher elsewhere it might suck um plastics from UK off to Italy or Spain where there's more of an incentive to to get recycled plastic so um yeah we need as much consistency across the board as possible of where that can be to win it i think that that was interesting to hear your thoughts there because a lot of the consideration with regard to alignment whether it's EU or UK the considerations are around the producer responsibility and products being sold in market but you're saying actually the recycle it the waste that comes from the processes and being able to trade that into into other markets is also something to be to be cognisant of in the process of and implementation of this bill does anyone want to add anything further to what mr Freeland said i think we can move on can be hands so i'd move on thank you that's it okay thank you we've now got some questions from Douglas Lameston Douglas thank you can be now just moving on to enforcement now and it's just to ask everyone if they agree with the need for increased enforcement measures and i guess that would lead to the potential for households to be fined for misusing waste collection services um maybe a question for Kozla first of all uh i think we're off to Gail McGregor or i'm hoping we are yeah there we are you're there thank you can be now morning Douglas um yeah penalties is a an area that we're slightly concerned about as i said or as i've consistently said you know we're looking at trying to encourage behaviour change um and certainly the carrot rather than stick would be preferable we do have issues around um you know blocks of black where there's shared bins uh you know and streets where we don't know who has put waste into what bin and i think that just begin to look at penalties for households could be quite punitive um as i say as an example if you live in a block of black and you're recycling to the absolute letter but your neighbour trucks something into your bin and you end up getting penalised for that so i mean that's the worst-case scenario obviously and i think that the local councils would take a a light-of-touch approach um but all obviously as with anything that involves enforcement that involves manpower and additional resource so i think there's a lot of complexities around that um and certainly we wouldn't be pushing down um the enforcement route at this particular stage as a preference um i think just trying to ensure that you've got the right processes and vessels in place um to to make people aware of the the change that they need to make um and enforcement is fine in terms of light tipping but i think household enforcement would be very punitive is douglas reiner wants him when you finish with gal or if we go to reiner first and then come back to gal if you want to thank you convener yes as as gail has said this is an area that is has raised a number of concerns i think i've heard concerns articulated quite frequently about the risk of creating a two-tier system in terms of household waste contamination because for standard urban dwellers avoiding contamination and recycling appropriately might not be problematic but for some of our more complex households who are probably wrestling with cost of living challenges and other challenges within a family environment contamination is probably a much harder thing to control and do we want to be introducing the idea of financial penalties into that that sort of environment um and also my understanding is that when financial penalties were introduced in england that was not seem to be driving a step change there so i think it's important that we learn lessons from what has been tried in other areas in terms of what has been shown to be successful and what is less successful behavior change is what will drive um changes in kerbside recycling and contamination of waste by householders first and foremost and not the imposition of penalties in my view thank you steven wantson i think now so obviously i don't have to worry about local politics it's always a strong issue for some of the colleagues in the panel but we were also supportive of this measure in the bill and i think it's another tool within the armory i think and it should be used sparingly and as a last resort but when we look at the supply the material supply chain and the contamination through the supply chain is a huge issue so turning up at a material recycling facility some loads can be 20 25 30 percent contamination at either the wrong material in the wrong container or just a non-recyclable item all together so i think householders play in a very important role in that they're at the very front of this supply chain and should have four or five actors stages beyond them we need to get things right at the very front making sure people put the right thing in the right container also on a site of that as well i think there's a sign around there about duty of care for householders making sure that they're doing a kitchen conversion or something that's um they're producing a lot of waste that it goes to an appropriately authorized person rather than flytipped and that's an existing duty on them i think it's suggesting that that might be a penalty for that as well if they if they're failing that and again again as a last resort i think that should be something that should be should be there uh since the pandemic we've got an increase in white van man who's now infiltrated the household waste market traditionally that used to be commercial industrial waste flytipping they're now turning up in streets doing leaflet drops saying um the council might have had disruption to its services over the pandemic or will take your waste don't worry about it and it's been flytipped uh people householders are a lot more aware now of environmental issues that they're aware of flytipping and if the offer there the price is there is too good to be true then it's the reason why so i think it's time to move into that space i think we're going to come to flytipping in in a bit more detail later but drew can i take you back to the bin police if that's what we're on yes i'll i was going to reiterate just what sieven said there for the bins i think that would be a dangerous area to go slippery slope but i would like to see something in place for householders that are hiring white van man to take away their hedges take away the bath take away the mattress there should be some modicum of responsibility put back on the householder for that type of material we've seen many times there's been stuff flytipped at the side of the road the sepa have been successful in getting a name and address but they go back to the householder and they say uh white van man 50 quid took it away not my problem sepa's lost it that so i think if there was a mechanism there but that could actually come back to the householder so that they did have a duty of care and a responsibility and a financial penalty for not doing it properly i think that would be a very a very worthwhile thing yeah okay well let's let's move on to to flytip and then then so is it you know the white van man is it too easy for them to get a i think what's it called a i think it's a license to carry to carry waste is that all the tightened up waste carriers license i believe online application not really any background checks not really anything at all just click the button pay the money get your license and does the actual white van man that's doing this in flytip and it does even have that license or does he not even bother with that probably not the the ones that are looking to project a credible form you know a credible facade may have one but a lot of them won't have so how would you recommend tightening up that whole process now i have i have sat our rns is sat in the board of the the the waste crime action group on a number of occasions and we have asked just recently in the last meeting a couple of weeks ago there that we have asked for vehicles that are you know registered to a waste carrier be livred in fact i would actually say that every white van man shouldn't exist every vehicle should be livred if we look at any of the reputable companies in the waste industry every single one of them has their name on their door they have the name emblazoned all over their trucks all over their skips because it's an advert so if you have someone you know and this goes to the larger waste crime element well which is usually done with a white vehicle and stolen skips flytipping with you know large large trucks these are all unmarked they're they're quite bland and we've put to the the waste crime group through the traffic commissioner i would say that these things should be you know it should be in law that they're they're livred so that you know if they do something wrong there's enough cctv cameras around about the countryside now you can easily spot it you can easily identify it and i don't mean the name on it in a in one inch writing in the in the back corner that no one can see you know properly displayed um i think that would go a huge way to prevent in your flytipping um and whether you could link that with the waste carrier's license possibly i don't know that's a that's a that's a decision for for yourselves and sepa to come up with a plan for that but i think that would come back a massive change a massive step change and also back to the point you made earlier about you know somebody's paid 50 quid oh it's not my responsibility anymore at someone else but i guess that still needs to go back to that person and they haven't given it to a proper person to be disposed of in a proper way it's still their responsibility indeed indeed and that's where i think penalties should be you know administered to the householder in that aspect a different conversation for the bins outside their house but certainly for that aspect of it maybe it's maybe a good time to go to to cosla now in terms of local authorities having to police flytipping do you have the resource required at this at this moment in time i think a very easy answer absolutely not no no and flytipping is a particular problem all across scotland um i think we were probably welcome some you know tougher enforcement and maybe tougher laws particularly on the white bands um councils are very good at their household waste recycling centres at managing commercial waste and they're looking at very creative ways of managing that but at the end of the day we have limited resource and for enforcement to be meaningful alongside sepa and other partners the police as well often when you contact the police they'll have nothing to do with it and we end up cleaning up the mess which is a cost so the enforcement in the first instance and the tightening of the law i think would probably be very much welcome it is a huge issue sorry gill can i just pick up on a point there so you say you don't have the money to to enforce it but you're having to deal with it you know you're having to spend money on clearing up after you know clearing up other people's mess so is there not something you could do to try and switch some of that switch some of that spend to actually more enforcement as opposed to having to deal with clearing up i suspect that that would work easier in urban areas um but certainly in a rural area like mine whereas you know string rar to langham is a very big stretch um to have that individual and the cost of that would probably outweigh um the pickup costs but in a region like ours you would need more than one individual to be able to do that so we're getting into significant cost um and i think it becomes a balance of you know we just clear it up when it when it's dumped um whereas we would rather actually frontload it and put the the funding into resourcing um the enforcement but we just don't have that capacity within councils um and actually we don't have that many staff okay thank you i don't know if anyone else wants to um so a lot of people wanting to ask questions on the back of this so uh maybe if i could try and bring a couple of people in and see if they we could throw the questions together we're just quite short of time so maybe if i could get jackie uh to ask her questions on on it and maybe bob come in as well with your question at the same time sorry oh yeah no problem convener i was regarding the current uh level of fines that are currently in place for fly tipping um i'm going to ask are they high enough but i probably know the answer to that already and do you think that they act as a deterrent or um and do they cover the cost of removing the the dumped waste do you have a question linked to that yeah so if you want to go together for time constraints convener that was lit or not um my issues whether the data on fly tipping is robust because in my experience there's always like hidden fly tipping in the local authority across the country have got bulk uplift charges which can be prohibitive at times and local residents quite often put their household old baths old cookers old televisions beside what would be communal bin areas but it's not covered by the uplift from the local authority and that's eventually deemed to be fly tipping and then collected at the cost of the council it's whether that's captured on data so the 60 000 annual incidents that are in the scottish government stats i wonder if that's an underestimate if i've got a good definition of what fly tipping is in all those time constraints convener but i thought that was an important one to ask so just in the evidence that i think was submitted to the committee we heard that it should be a cost of clearing up times five i think you know some people might suggest it cost of clearing up times 10 who wants to go on the cost and who wants to go on helpful people putting stuff next to bins which isn't covered by bins removal um you can't all look away um so why don't why don't you try the cost recovery bit and do you want to do that is are the fines big enough i suspect not otherwise that they would they would work i'm actually going to turn to rona because i think she might have a bit more around the data and the cost implications and but certainly again you can impose any level of fine but if it's not enforced and the messaging doesn't get out there that people are being fined for it it is it's not a preventative so it would need to be built within a campaign in a local area that a number of people have been fined to the maximum amount and if you do it you will get caught and you will be fined but if we can't get to that stage then i don't see that behavioural change coming and we need the support of the police and seep in that as well and i have to say that on occasion we don't always feel that we get that that's of collective support okay so rona over to you mary councils got a huge record on on dealing with fly tipping and are the fines enough or maybe they haven't got a huge record it's not i mean we have an issue with fly tipping as all areas do but it is not a massive issue in in money but i think it is fair to say that the fines are not enough they're not high enough to act as a disincentive to white van man and definitely that is an area that has to be looked at but also as has been alluded to previously we have to look at the wider costs of enforcement because if you're trying to cover a large area and actually gather credible evidence of fly tipping that takes resources so any enforcement system has to be fully resourced in order to be effective i'm afraid i don't have statistics about the extent to which materials or classes fly tipped that have been placed for uplift alongside standard collections because of views that bulky uplift charges that most local authorities are having to levy now around providing free services are unaffordable but to me that takes us back to that issue of to have a system that works local authorities have to be resourced fully in order to operate an enforcement system effectively and fines have to be a level where they are an active disincentive to those who are carrying out this illicit trade thank you okay no one's actually taken bob's question on on on thing do you want to pose it delva a little bit into that before i come to the deputy committee i think i think the owner gun actually i think did address it i think in a lot of urban areas that there's a prevalence of people just putting household goods for disposal at bin area locations that is not covered by local authority uplift and my understanding that sits there for a period of time and then it's classified as fly tipping and has uplifted the cost of local authority anyway and it's a bit standardising that data collection across the country to see the extent of the problem and finding it is rona gun said it's about finding more efficient ways of tackling that issue but i think we're on a gun agreed it was an issue i think but we don't have robust data collection on it okay i'd say run out noddy ben do you want to come in on us just just briefly we've heard in previous evidence that if so in urban environments in particular to some of the most commonly fly tipped items are sofas and mattresses and we've heard that as part of this bill if we could place obligations on providers of say a new mattress to take away the old one that would be of great assistance and if we were through this process able to enhance a system where the producers and suppliers of these often fly tipped materials in urban areas took responsibility for that waste could we then move to a position where as Jackie Dunbar raised where you have other miscellaneous items that are placed around bins and it was properly funded move towards a system where the bulky items could be picked up free of charge by the local authority because to me that seems like the place we want to get to because it is a lot of the the fly tipping that's happening is is because if people are either unaware that they're fly tipping because it's it's just smaller items or they're finding it difficult to either pay for or get to the the waste the waste sites on on the periphery of cities normally i'm sort of looking to see who'd like to uh drew i can give a couple of scenarios here and a couple of suggestions which may help to watch your question one of the ones is that the the woods and pops legislation that's coming through for the fire retardant sofas i think we're going to see a massive amount of sofas at the side of the road in the countryside line about the streets coming forward there's not really the facilities in place they've been banned from landfill they've been banned from landfill for a number of a long period of time sepal enforce that come the end of january i believe um we have a dilemma in our members businesses that they're looking at just saying well we don't take them anymore so if you're hiring a skip or you're hiring a van for a clearance or something then this is going to be separate i believe the highland council as well have decided that they are not going to allow them into their hwc so that's going to be a massive problem for bulky waste uplifts in the future until there's sufficient facilities in place to deal with this material properly the other thing is and i get what you're saying about bulky uplifts free of charge but and i can't speak for amenity sites that i'm not aware of personally but an amenity site won't take a van in in our area so they will be they will be sent away and we had a situation not too long ago a householder had hired a van they were clearing out a relatives house they'd loaded the van they'd arrived at the amenity site they had no knowledge of this how the system works they arrived at the amenity site the amenity site put them away phoned us to see if we could help we couldn't technically let them in because although they're a household and they're exempt for the duty of care regulations they're not a registered waste carrier because they've hired a van so we'd be then in breach of our regulations to let them into your facility and they want to come and pay us to tip the material so we then had to dispatch a vehicle transfer the material bring it all over so there's situations that arise that people trying to do the right thing are blocked to do the right thing and maybe the amenity sites should look at charging you know having an actual charge system mechanism for things like that so it's not everybody that wants to put a three-piece suite in a bathroom from refurbishing their house in the back of their car so they might want to hire a van but the hire a van then they're they can't get into the amenity site so they they may be hire right van man so we could be potentially putting blocks in people's ways that want to do the right thing so it's maybe something worth looking at very important to hear yeah that's interesting now normally i take members who've joined the committee for a specific session at the end but i know meadow phrases is specifically on fly tipping or i suspect it is i hope it is so i'm going to bring you in briefly meadow could i say three questions at the maximum if you if you could limit it to that please thank you thank you very much convener um yeah i do have a particularly interesting fly tipping i've got a member's bill in preparation on this and i welcome particularly section 10 of the bill which does create this enhanced duty of care on the householder i'm going to ask two questions convener about alasom at the same time if that's all right because actually a lot of the questions i would have asked have already been been been covered so firstly maybe i could direct this firstly to gail mcgregor from from from kozla firstly on this question of the fixed penalty notices currently this sits at 200 pounds i think we all accept that it's nowhere near the level it needs to be to act as a deterrent scottish government are suggesting although it's not in the bill but they suggested in their strategy they would look to increase that to 500 and my question is is that enough and is there some mechanism whereby that money raised could then be recycled into greater enforcement and how practical is that effectively to try and ring fence money raised from fixed penalty notices to deal with the resource issue and my second question which goes back to what drew murder which is saying when i ran my consultation on fly tipping one of the biggest issues that was raised with me by people was how restrictions on access to recycling centres were a driver to fly tipping so what we've seen is councils usually driven by budgetary conditions have reduced opening hours in recycling centres some have been closed entirely others have introduced queuing systems or appointment systems and that's not in any way an excuse for people to fly tip but you can see why if you make it more difficult for people to legally dispose of a material then they are more likely to fly tip human nature being what it is and i wonder how much of that is a factor too so maybe i could ask gail initially to address those yeah thanks very much morning we're doing nice to see you and i think in terms of the fixed penalty i'm not sure that anything would ever be enough to get us to where we want to get to but certainly 500 pounds would be better than 200 but go back to my original point it's around the enforcement it doesn't matter what figure that fixed penalty sits at if we're not enforcing and we're not catching and we're not finding and that message isn't getting out then it is not a deterrent so i think that the key thing here is that we require the resource to enable us to enforce properly and you have all the mechanisms in place to do so cctv or whatever it takes to actually catch people in the act in terms of ring fencing there is precedent within local authorities that the you know fees and charges if you like that come into the council can be notionally ring fence to go back out into that system and i think we have precedent around that with decriminalisation of parking and various other things so yes that that could be a driver to get more capacity within that enforcement area but certainly within our community safety teams and the individuals that are dealing with this we simply need more bodies on the ground to enforce it so going back to your question around fly tipping and disincentive at household waste recycling centres we're actually in the process at the moment of a review in Dumfries and Galloway and councils across Scotland will be doing similar at different stages and it's very much looking at what the community needs and what works for them trying to make it as easy as possible to to utilise their recycling centre and to access that some do apply booking system which some believe is a bit of a disincentive because people just like to turn up and certainly you know in this area we're looking at a sort of blend of what will work but the key thing is to you know consult with our community and find out what is going to work for them and what are the barriers so if they can't access an online booking system can we put something in place in in your customer service centres to assist them in doing that so it's about trying to make it as easy as possible for the individual to get rid of that waste wherever that may be and I think that that has to be the driver for us is finding out what the community needs and then enabling and making it as easy as possible for that and that comes with background to your behaviour of change as well. Thank you. As Steven would like to say. Thank you. Just on the the point of the household waste recycling centres are in many respects an untapped resource and if you look at the recycling figures a large part of our recycling progressive figures are derived from materials come through the household waste recycling centres so I think there's a when we're talking about investing in new facilities we focus on the big shiny high tech stuff and we often forget about the household waste recycling centre and I think it's an opportunity to invest in these a lot more maybe create regional super hubs and they could have reuse hubs attached to it making far more easily accessible and I think we could find that they make quite a major boost to the overall recycling rate if people are actually encouraged to use them and they were probably designed for ease of collection materials. Okay. Thank you very much, Mada, if you're happy with that. Mark Ruskell, I think you've got a few questions that you'd like to ask. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. I wanted to ask you about the charter for household recycling because obviously that's been on a on a voluntary basis and what the challenges have been around implementing that and then if we're now to see a shift to more of a statutory code what what that sort of code development looks like. I'm going to go back to Gail because I think you mentioned earlier on Gail just about that that sort of code design co-production with the minister so as we make the shift now from a voluntary code to a statutory one what does that look like for local authorities? That's very much Mark. Good morning. I think there's some challenges around it. Obviously, if we have a charter and all the councils have signed up to that anyway, so I'm not entirely sure that it needs to be even more vigorous and rigid. If we're going to work in true partnership with the government to get the right system in place, then that has to be a trusted relationship and I think that goes back to the issue around penalties for councils as well. If we are co-designing and co-producing the circular economy bill and all of its moving parts in true partnership, then we can't be talking about penalties or stricter charters. Silke might want to come in on this as well, but there's a real spirit and a real desire to be myself and lawer in the minister to get this right, but I'm not sure how we do that if the end goal is that we end up getting penalised for something. That to me is not true partnership and I'd be very clear to impress that on the minister that co-design has to be true partnership co-design, but Silke might have some more information around specifics. Thank you. Yes, absolutely linking into what council McGregor has flagged up there. We don't think that the key issue is mandatory or not. Given that all 32 local authorities have signed up to the voluntary nature of it, the key thing is now to get the code of practice right and the committee here has heard about some of the very specific challenges around about Tenement's communal recycling facilities and what is absolutely key is that we get the code of practice. It is to be reviewed and that we get this review right so that we actually have got an effective system in Scotland that also produces some of the balances that the committee has discussed here. The balance between a degree of standardisation but also a degree of actually being able to provide services that are fitting the rural or urban circumstances, the Tenement's versus the Non-Tenement's. The key absolutely here is to get the charter right. Sorry, not to the charter, the code of practice right and things will follow on from there but that's the key work that has to be done at the moment. That was one of the provisions in the bill that we strongly supported. I think that there's a bit of concern that there's a duty for just local authorities and SEPA to be consulted on the cause and such like. We're just a bit concerned. I think that's quite a narrow range of people to be involved. Local authorities do the vast one, pretty much, do all the collection from the householders but when it gets passed on down the chain it's mostly to the private sector to our members who then process it and send it off to market. I think that there needs to be a greater recognition of a wider consultation. Not every local authority is quite so clued up on where it ends up once they've collected it and I think that a greater buy-in and discussion with the wider supply chain would help ensure that the collection system at the front end is working fit for purpose. How do we build certainty for investment in the infrastructure that's going to be needed? The biggest certainty is two issues. One is getting the CREP policy environment in place to invest. We are sat in a bit of a hate us at the moment. We've got things like deposit returns being shelved, landfill bans being postponed and then things like EPRs just sitting waiting. It's very difficult to put your neck out to make an investment decision until the policy landscape is fully established and confirmed. At the moment, I can't think of any other time where there's so many balls being juggled at the moment and nobody really knows what impact one part is going to have on something else. The other aspect beyond the policy certainty in the landscape is quality material and the right quantity to be attractive for somebody to invest. As I mentioned before, Scotland's small place is a disparate local authority, so we want as much of its tonnages aggregated and brought to the market in the consistent standards. On the back of that, there's much more certainty to invest in the right recycling and reprocessing plants. Do others want to come in on that? I can't see off the screen. Rona wants to come in, I can see on the screen. There we go. I saw her hand up right now. Now you're muted. Hold on. Is that me now? You are live now. Thank you very much for that question. It's a fascinating one, Mark. I think that there are a number of things that are going to be key to that investment piece. I think that local authorities need a significant lead time in order to plan their waste systems and processes effectively. A lot of the concerns that are articulated around wads and pops are because of the timescales that we're now having to try and react within, so that lead-in time is going to be absolutely crucial. The availability of accessible funding for local authorities is also important, so the recycling infrastructure fund has helped many local authorities to introduce significant changes in terms of capital investment in their waste systems and processes at household waste recycling centres or in terms of other capital investments, for example, the containers that they're using, the technology that they're applying, and at the moment the rift funding is due to end within a year or 18 months, so the local government is wanting to know what is the next stream of investment. Where will that be coming from? Will there be another iteration of the rift funding? EPR and its ability to contribute to funding has already been discussed at length in this session, and the expansion of EPR to a wider stream of materials would certainly be absolutely indispensable in that. Another key element is ensuring that the investment is backed by solid evidence that the changes under consideration will deliver the outcomes that are required and that those changes are piloted and tested in different environments, urban and rural, because of the different ways in which waste streams operate in those environments. Those are my thoughts, thank you very much. On the back of that, with EPR, could this be a game changer in terms of the investment that's needed? What is the most important signal that can be sent to industry and local authorities right now in terms of finance? Rowna, you're muted again, sorry. Off you go, we can hear you. Thank you. I'm going to blame it on the fact that I've joined via a browser. It's maybe just my ineptitude with the unmute button, I do apologise. I think that the key thing is getting in as early in the waste system in the hierarchy as you can, and that's the advantage if you're getting in at the point when goods are being produced and you're able to generate income and support, bring back schemes and so on. That has to be a more effective way to deal with the climate challenges that we're facing than only dealing with it when it ends up in the waste stream. I think that EPR is going to be absolutely fundamental and we need to be looking at how we can widen that to difficult items that we've discussed already, such as mattresses and so on. Gail, did you want to come in on that? I don't have much more to add. I think that with the extended producer responsibility scheme, and certainly we've been working with other local government associations across the UK, what we don't know is what that is going to bring in and where that can be utilised. I think that there's still a lot of work to be done around that particular area at the moment. It's just very uncertain. We don't know what thumbs will be available for councils, so while we welcome that absolutely, and I think it's imperative to get us to where we need to get to in our net zero journey at the moment, there's so many uncertainties around that particular element of the funding, and I think we have to be very mindful of that. I just want to reiterate that the partnership working is good, and I think that that will be sustained. We need to look at the opportunities, financial penalties and all the challenges aside. This is a positive step for local government and for the entire country, so we need to grasp the positives, but be mindful of the unintended consequences that can arise as well. My final point, because I think we'll be finishing quite soon, is that our board met and discussed the circular economy bill recently, and we'd be very happy to feed in additional information on the back of the conversations that were had within the board if the committee would find that helpful as well, because I think it's really important to hear what 32 council representatives from across Scotland have said and fed into this bill. That would be very useful, I'm sure. A final question for me, just about local recycling targets. Do you think that they're necessary and she would be looking beyond recycling to other targets that reflect the white waste hierarchy, such as re-use targets at local level? Is that something that would be welcomed from local authorities? I would be delighted to know that Dumfries and Gallows recycling rates have improved, which is great, and I'm really pleased about that. We also need to educate our communities around what recycle means, what reuse means, and the various other strands. Having individual targets for various things within local authorities would be very useful. We have a fantastic furniture project in Stranraer, for example, which gets quite a lot of its products from one of our household waste recycling centres. They are very much re-using those particular products. There are some really good examples out there that we can use for benchmarking with other local authorities as well, and I think that that would be hugely valuable. We don't want to have to report to death, but I think those targets are absolutely vital. If for no other reason, then let the public see how well they're doing and how much better they could be doing. Mark, I've got Stephen in the room who'd like to comment on that briefly, please. Yeah, just very briefly. Thank you. I completely support the provision for local authority recycling targets. I think we only have to look to what's happening down in Wales. I think that it's been instrumental in Wales in the progress that they've achieved, so we'd like to see that rolled out across the board. The only thing was, I think, it's 2030, and they were suggesting that. That seems to just go against the grain in the waste target route map, which is a bit of a collective panic that we are not meeting our targets. We need interventions as quickly as possible. That did seem a bit further down the line, but yes, the local authority recycling targets is probably one of the key things in the bill for us, I think. Okay, Mark, if you're happy with that, are you happy with that? Thank you. Mark, I'm going to come to you briefly, Sarah Boyack, and see if you can trump my little phrase with two questions put to one person, rather than lots of questions. He says gently. That is very much appreciated, convener. Can I ask Gail McGregor a question about the estimates in the financial memorandum? There's been a lot of talk about the need for investment. Do you agree with the estimates in there? Given the huge variation in local authorities' current achievements in recycling targets, there are three below 30 per cent, 12 over 50 per cent, to address the best practice and learning experience, where do you see the investment coming from in capital and in revenue expenditure? Good morning, Sarah. It would be fair to say that the financial memorandum is not capturing the full cost to local government, and we've made that fairly clear in our evidence. Obviously, the cost of the revised code of practice for curbside collections is impossible for us to determine the cost in advance of revision. Obviously, we can't ascertain the full cost until we know exactly what the new systems are going to be. As I said earlier, on the extent of producing a responsibility team, there are some variables around what funding that would bring in. At the moment, we do not believe that the memorandum is capturing the full cost to local government. Again, we will work to look at the undefined measures and the challenges and to try to quantify that future funding with the Government. A lot is being taken on trust at the moment, which could make things very challenging for local authorities. I might be past it to Rona Cymru or Silke on the second question. I'm just waiting to see who's going to jump in first. Rona, it looks like you're jumping in first whether you like it or not. I've volunteered you. Thank you. Sorry, could you repeat that question? In the financial memorandum, do you agree with the estimates of the costs involved, both in terms of investment in infrastructure, which could be vehicles, recycling centres, community recycling centres and reuse opportunities, and investment that would be more staff-related, such as revenue expenditure, to meet new targets, given that currently three local authorities are under 30 per cent in recycling and only 12 local authorities achieve over 50 per cent at the moment? It's a huge gap. What are your views on how you meet that gap financially? Thank you. I was just thrown by the reference to the second question. I think that Gail has given you quite a comprehensive response to that. I would support the response that she's given. I think that there is consensus in local government that the financial memorandum does under state costs. There will be significant infrastructure costs, capital costs and staffing costs, and those vary considerably according to economies of scale. For example, if you are running enforcement systems in an area like Glasgow, you will be able to achieve economies of scale that an area like Murray or Clackmannanshire could never achieve. There are real concerns about costs and future sources of funding. I think that we await some information about whether there will be any successor to the recycling infrastructure fund. That funding has been very well received by local government and put to very good use, particularly in some of the larger authorities that have the lower recycling rates to try and produce a step change in their systems. The challenge in terms of the costing for the bill is that it's a framework bill, and therefore elements such as the code of practice that will be significant determinants of the costs of delivering the bill haven't yet been co-produced and co-designed. As Gail said, that causes some concernation because the framework will be sealed when the bill becomes legislation, but all the work setting out the detail in a number of areas has yet to come. In one area, for example, the disposal of green waste, most local authorities now drive significant income from that waste stream, but there is a suggestion that that will become a statutory collection that local government must collect. That would be an area that would be looked at in terms of designing the code of practice. There are a number of areas that could have a significant impact on costs for local government, but we don't yet have clarity about what the design in those areas will look like when they are finalised. I hope that that covers your question. I think that that's very useful. I think that the challenge then is how does that actually happen if this piece of legislation is to be successfully implemented. So you've mentioned there the issue about compliance and awareness, and that's come up with several people so far today. Could you specifically tell us in terms of the financial memorandum both what the challenge is but what the opportunity is? I think that with everything, the money has to be spent upfront before there is income, so I don't know if either Gail MacGregor or Rona Gun, if you want to come in on your estimate of the gap there in terms of expenditure and income. Gail. Sarah, I'm going to pass this to officers because this is granular detail that I'm afraid of. I admit that I don't know. Okay, ready for the answer of all knowledge followed by Silke. Well, I was going to invite Silke to come in on this one, actually, but is that... Silke, put your hand up. I'm hoping there's more... I was offering to come in. Thank you. Thank you. So I understand the question. I think in terms of the gaps in the financial memorandum, there are some aspects where we can be clearer what the gap is and other aspects where we can't be so clear. So in terms of the enforcement costs, and we have fed back our position to the committee on the financial memorandum, in terms of the enforcement costs, we can see quite clearly that we don't believe that they are fully costed here. We do believe that the enforcement costs will actually be higher, and I'd like to point the committee also to the discussion that had been had with three local authorities in your parallel committee that was taking evidence on the finance financial memorandum, which had quite complicated discussions around issuing fines, how many percent of fixed fines are actually being paid, what happens with the majority of fixed fines that are not being paid with us the money go, and so on. So I think in general, what we do know is that the costs for enforcement are slightly underestimated and that the penalties are unlikely to bring in the money that is required to run the full successful enforcement system. The second thing, then, is where we're talking around the code of practice and changing the actual physical waste infrastructure that our problem here is, as sort of like Gail has flagged up, is that we can't comment at the moment on something that we haven't got the detail of. So we can't comment on whether the 88 million that I'm being mentioned in the financial memorandum as a figure set against cost for infrastructure changes, whether this figure is accurate or not because we haven't defined yet what a new revised code of practice would look like. So we don't know the cost yet of a future system because the future system hasn't been defined and we also don't quite know how much money extended producer responsibility, for example, will bring in because that system hasn't even finalised the modelling of costs for certain local authority archetypes. So the uncertainty lies in two ways and therefore it is hard to comment on the size of the gap for infrastructure changes, for changing curbside collection systems. That's very useful to get on the record. I visited a local authority and saw their fantastic new infrastructure but it had to be funded and their comment was, if everybody needs this infrastructure we'll need the supply chains and we'll need the investment and it's not in their local authority budget so the Scottish Government will need to step in. Thanks for your feedback. Okay and for the record I know just everyone on the screen nodding. I think we've come to the end of this session thank you very much and Gail, I'm delighted you didn't drop off during the session, I'm glad connections held up. So thank you all very much for attending, very useful and I think there was some offers of additional information from you Gail to provide it to the committee which I'd be very grateful if you could send to the class because we'd like to see that. I'm now briefly going to suspend the meeting to allow a changeover of witnesses and I'd ask committee members to be back here at 11.15. Thank you and I suspend the meeting. Paul, can you hear me? I'm not hearing you but I'm seeing you. No I'm still not hearing you Paul. I'm going to put the speeder back down but you're still up. Can you try and speak to us again? Paul are you hearing me? You're not hearing me, you're hearing me but I'm not hearing you. Can you give me a thumbs up if you're hearing me? Sorry but I'm still not hearing you. Let's see what else we can do. Welcome back, I'm sorry for the slight delay. We're now going to hear from a panel of representatives from local authorities on the circular economy bill. I'm pleased to welcome Bryden Gray, team leader for waste management, Shetland Islands Council, David McCulloch, who's the head of recycling street scene and waste management for Glasgow City Council. I would like to be able to welcome Paul Wolverson, the service manager from the environmental and commercial services from Murray Council, but his microphone is playing up and therefore he can't contribute, but he will listen to the session and will contribute in written answers afterwards. So thank you all for joining us today. I'm sorry we're down to two from a cast of three. Interestingly and disappointingly, if we'd had Murray we would have had the highest councillor recycler. We've still got the lowest and one at the bottom end of the list as well. So I think it's an important question, questions to answer. So let's start off with a very easy question. What are the key targets, whether circular economy strategy and national targets could support local authorities in what they do? And let's go first of all to Bryden if I may please. Well don't say you're muted as well. I can't see your microphone coming on. Ah there we go you're not muted you're live. Good morning can you hear me? If we turn the volume up a bit we'll hear you even better. Bryden off you go. Can you hear me now? Yep perfectly thank you very much. Yeah good morning everybody. Yeah so could you repeat the question please? Yeah it's just what are the key areas where a circular economy strategy and national targets could help local authorities in transitioning to a circular economy? I suppose coming from a Shetland point of view obviously we've got the lowest recycling rate but behind that story at the same time we've got the third highest landfill diversion rate and this is purely because of the the district heating scheme that we run. So we're speaking about targets and stuff then I think it's important to remember well I suppose one size doesn't fit all when it comes to everything. We've we've got a recycling scheme that we run we try to extract the most valuable materials because obviously once we ship a trailer off the island you're speaking £1,000 before it leaves the island as well sorry for every trailer as well as the carbon footprint that every tower is going to have as well. So for that end that's why we're I suppose that's why we've targeted the higher value materials shipping them off the island and back at this end we're burning the leftover residual waste which provides heat for the for around 1200 properties around the main capital Shetland which is Lerwick. So as that touches into other social things as well because the links of the heating from the district heating scheme that's currently the cheapest form of electricity in heating. It's only 7.5 pence per kilowatt an hour compared to electricity them all which is 30 pence. So at the end although our recycling targets are low or rate is low we're providing heat for these properties in Shetland which is my argument I suppose. Well it's an interesting point that one size doesn't fit all and I think we take that. David do you want to come in and comment on that? Good morning everybody. Yeah I agree that targets are important the objectives of where the direction of travel is extremely important but what it's worth highlighting that any targets of the energy that we put in there have to be realistic and they have to reflect the challenges the design of that local authority. Out of the 33rd local authorities of Scotland each one is diverse even just what we've got in the room today we've got Urban, we've got rural, we've got an island. Each one of those local authorities have its own challenges its own operating model so therefore to compare them light for light isn't realistic and therefore it sets a different level of standards. For us recycling is important but it isn't shouldn't be the only thing we should be looking at by my saying there some environmental impacts, the diversion from landfill, the reduction of food waste, the carbon impact of our waste. So tell the pic what once we're focused on the shouldn't just be one or two there should be we're looking at individual local authorities what are constraints what are the different challenges associated with them and also set realistic targets based on the wider environmental goals. Okay thanks David and I'm afraid the next question is going to be directed at you because I suspect what I've just heard from Brydon it means that it might not be relevant on Scotland but you can certainly come if you want Brydon. What I've heard when I've been travelling around is different colour bins in 32 different council areas to achieve the same result which is not helpful and very confusing. Do you think a standard bin system across all of Scotland and a standard recycling package would benefit Scotland? I think standardising waste collection across local authority has a lot of benefits and merits. Standardising what we do across all local authorities allows consumers and the residents to understand no matter where in the country they know how to recycle they know try to keep it simple for them so I'm all for that. Also then allows for investment into infrastructure needed to support the collection and make sure that the commercial companies can invest in infrastructure and they know they've got consistent and continuous income or waste income into their facilities but one thing that is challenging again like one of the challenges we've got in Glasgow is types of houses having a standard bin collection system for kerbside properties across the country makes a lot of sense it's easy to install it's easy for people to use people know those households have responsibility for their bins and it's easy to enforce as well the challenge we have in an urban area in Glasgow is two thirds of our housing stock are what we call high density communal properties that are high rise flats, tenorites, mid rise flats that consumers don't have responsibility for bins so therefore it's part of the code of practice that they'll be eventually rolled out. I can size in these to be looked at about what kind of service is needed for these communal areas and so yeah I go back to the standpoint I do agree that standardising collections is important across the city across the country sorry but we need to be looking at the the property types that don't fit into that mold. Brian I'm going to give you the opportunity to tell me that Shatland only has two bins or three bins or four bins and do you think a standard system would be of use? I don't know how many bins you have in Shatland how many bins does each household have? Well we signed the recycling charter back in 2018 so at the moment we've got three bins you've got one bin for paper and card one bin for cans and plastic and one for general waste the cans and plastic we have a mini materials recycling facility at the landfill site which separates the cans and plastic so that's kind of how it works in Shatland then we built this material and send it south for recycling. I would agree with standardising some of the looks of the colours and stuff of bins quite often we'll get tourists up here and they'll go to fire the wrong wrong thing in the wrong bin because there's a different colour where they come from so that I end up certainly makes sense that to standardise it. Okay we might have to recycle a lot of bins Jackie I think you've got some questions that you'd like to put. Yes thank you good morning. I'd just like to ask how well are existing circular economy policies being implemented and resourced at a local government level and what are the main challenges that you face going forward? David can I start with you please and then I'll go to Brydon. Obviously circular economy targets are installed through our local government policies and procedures and what we are finding more than a city like Glasgow is the supply chain. We have looked a lot in our recycling centres or household waste recycling centres looking at reuse, recycling, reuse, working with third sector however it's very challenging to work with the third sector or finding outlets for materials due to the scale and that's why we're talking about investments needed in the supply chain for Glasgow especially because there is a lot of material that comes through our centres, there is a lot of material that people want to recycle, there's a lot of materials that could go back in to reuse or being redeveloped or redeployed into worthwhile causes but it's finding the systems and the schemes that are large enough to deal with the demand that a city like Glasgow has so that's something we need to look at wider with the third sector with their suppliers is building that supply chain that materials can get reused and redeveloped rather than ending up in a recycling scheme or ultimately sometimes into energy from waste. We're slightly similar but obviously being in Shetland we do not have many outlets up here for that type of thing. We've got a reuse centre that kind of takes some stuff for ease or not up here but most of our stuff does go down for recycling or energy from waste of course. What role does the local government play in the redistribution? You were just saying just now you've got a recycling centre. This is confusing convener I'm sorry. It's very difficult because David do you want to to answer that sorry I've confused sound because I think Bryddon's microphone's on and I've just called David so what we'll do is we'll definitely go to David now because his microphone's on then we'll come back to Bryddon. Yeah so the local authority plays a vital role and I think we here see ourselves as more of a co-ordinate and know we can't do everything ourselves we don't have the funds or some kind of skill sets to build the thing but we can bring partners on board and partners we want to work with is partners we think could benefit from it to co-ordinate materials reuse circle economy into for material types for example things like food shares things like materials that can be reused back into use for housing it's difficult for us to do it through procurement and the some of the constraints that local government have but we can see ourselves sitting in a kind of group of a working group for a body to support that but we won't be the we don't see ourselves as the people driving it. Will the local government to to head it up or do you find that there are organisations that are keen to head it up but just need a little bit of support from you? I don't think there's I think a council maybe not head up there should be a significant role in them a definitely thing I think local government should be a driving force and maybe not head up they should have a substantial role in there to support it. There's a lot of charity a lot of organisations out there but maybe not have the skills the scale or the resources to do other such things so therefore I think accordingly to the approach across all willing parties is needed. Okay thank you I don't know if Bryddon's got anything to add. Sorry gentlemen I'm finding it difficult doing the online today it's been such a while since we've done it. No Bryddon's might find slight so he can add in now. Yeah I'd probably just back up what David is saying to be honest with you we don't we don't lead as such on reuse schemes but there's people in Shetland that deal that kind of thing for example there's a community repaint scheme there's what we call the co-op or co-op furniture store that take all of our old furniture and old tools for using and things and the bike project things of that so we work in partnership with these types of people to encourage as much reuse as possible. Again we're resources limited ourselves so that's where we're going to outsource slightly. Okay thank you. Thank you very much Jackie the next questions come from rascal mark. Yeah thanks Kavina so I wanted to ask you about your experience of the most problematic waste streams and we've heard some evidence already this morning about you know furniture that has pops in it I'm sure there are lots of other waste streams where you know in terms of volume or in terms of handling materials there are particular challenges so could you sort of outline what what those are and how you see the bill beginning to address some of those issues that could be through single use charging or it could even be you know banning certain products so yeah should we start with Glasgow now we'll head north. Thanks there's a lot there's a lot there's a few significant problematic materials just now you have it north in nine batteries which from my own experience we have seen a number of files within collection vehicles a recycling centre and actually from an energy waste plant have seen significant files so that's becoming an ongoing problem and although we've started some initiatives where we can bring materials back to recycling centres and put it back on to longer term recycling the uptake for it hasn't been great I want the materials end up in bin especially the vapes and electronic equipment with lithium batteries inside it so something needs to be done to tackle that as I now write banning some of these items potentially yes or is it looking at the manufacturers the producers of these equipments to make sure that batteries can be removed or there's a take back scheme to support it pops is obviously a significant problem for local authorities moving forward and that will have an impact on how we're going to service how we're going to run our services what impact that going to have on in the public or what impact that going to have on our budgets to deal with it's a huge problem which we're working on just now with a lot of partners about how it will look going forward it could end up with increased fly tipping which brings other challenges to local local government as well of dealing with that so for myself these two materials are going to be causing significant problems to local authorities in the immediate future another material type that it's been a long going challenge for local government and it's never really been tackled greatly is it's a high carbon impact material which is food waste if we can try to get people more engaged in food waste services firstly reducing their food waste consumption or producing their waste but using using systems to recycle better that for some reason across a local government a local authorities a lot of food waste services are in place the uptake usage of it has never been great I don't know if that's educational or if that's a the yuck factor from residents but it's a waste stream that'll have a significant impact if we can recycle it better we can turn into energy put it back into land use so there are probably the three waste streams that I do think that needs to be a focus as part of this bill to tackle Briden coming to you yeah no um Dave's touched on the two that I was going to mention was the pop's waste and the battery waste from like so vapes um I think the vapes is probably the most but they're more dangerous than the two at the moment given that there was some serious fires then some handling facilities down the road um that's the most relevant ones at the moment that's the ones we're trying to push to everybody say please recycle these items come and take them to the sites and we'll take them from you to dispose of them properly so at the moment that's the most relevant one and certainly one that we're trying to keep atop of because last thing we want is a fire at the landfill site or the incinerator so that's we'd be the same yeah Mark Mark sorry can I can I come back on on just a couple of those points then um I want to get your reflections on soft plastics because you know those plastic films are very difficult to recycle um I noticed that a plant had been set up in five and to start to mechanically recover some of that but is that is that an area where you think in order to significantly increase recycling we need to be addressing soft plastics and whether you know facility maybe on a national regional basis is needed and then the other the other thing I wanted to ask about from a particularly from a shatten perspective was just you know fishing gear we see a lot of environmental impact from ghost fishing gear effectively but also you know it lands on on our beaches I'm sure it lands on your beaches as well and whether you you see a a kind of role within this bill or within the work of local authorities to try and deal with that where that's you know deposit scheme or some kind of you know enhanced regulation or standards around that go back in reverse then we'll start north and head south so yeah I'll answer your last question first um yeah discarded fishing gear is obviously a big problem in shetland um we work closely with chemo um to provide a service that people can take in this discarded fishing gear pull it pull it from the shores and take it in and put it in skips which we then they move so and some of the peers around shetland we've got skips specifically just for discarded fishing gear so at the moment we know roughly what's coming in well but yeah we've got a rough idea what's coming in um it is a bit of an issue for sure um I suppose it could have part of the bill I haven't really thought too much about that so I couldn't have given an informed answer on that but that would certainly be something worth looking at I would say uh oh your first question is on soft plastics um yeah if I'm honest at the moment we've shetland's council don't run any kind of soft plastics collection scheme it's run by Tesco up here it's one of the supermax we've got so there's a bring back for soft plastics there um the rest of our stuff I suppose just ends up in incineration um uh what was your question on that I'm sorry I think I think you've answered the question on on soft plastics is that right Mark yeah happy with that yep okay we can go to David that'd be great thanks very much David do you want to come in on this I guess not so much on the fishing gear but maybe no not the fishing gear sorry not a huge need for that in Glasgow just now but um soft plastics is a significant challenge just now in Glasgow we don't offer it as part of a kerbside collection service as yet and we direct residents to local supermarkets shops that have that return service however as part of the second improvement fund bid we are actually looking to roll out increased cycling service to our kerbside properties this year which will see the introduction of soft plastics into that plan to capture it as well as part of the actual fund where we're actually looking to develop and build a new material recovery facility which will be able to target soft plastics and remove that it's move that from the cycling bin put it back into the the market this is just for our kerbside properties just just now however we're looking at a similar scheme or the looking at the cost associated and the deliverability of the deliver on a similar scheme into our high density properties over a number of years so tackling these plastics is a is a worthwhile cause and a lot of these but most of these plastics will be going to energy recovery just now just getting dumped because of electricity one thing we do should be looking as part of the bill now is not just what happens at the back end can a lot of this material be prevented from shops can packaging can wrapping for food be reduced so we don't have the volume of it to deal with in the back end and that needs to probably be a look at and i'll seriously look at people's consumption but more importantly if the material is being produced and how can we create how can we capture it and put it back into the market which again we're looking to put in place over the next number of years in Glasgow okay mark if you've got further questions no is that you i do but i can come back later on convener okay perfect bob i think you want to come in on this convener yes thank you and thank mr ruskell for for letting me in at this point i've got a very specific constituency question mr mccullough um which you might you might anticipate i was really pleased that the scottish government gave 21 million pounds for refunding to allow glasgo city council to have much needed it overhaul of recycling facilities probably a decade in the waiting for some of that investment so hopefully it will transform convener but obviously i'm keen to know when the block here recycling facility which is a significant blight for many of my constituents may finally close to more and more appropriate facilities will be used so that would be helpful but also whether that 21 million pound investment is sufficient to allow glasgo city council to be on track to dramatically improve current recycling rates and what percentage that you'll get to over the next few years once these new facilities and the new curbsides the new curbsides collection is in place okay thanks um cymde bloke and facility um the the works have already started at our development sites we use the queensley's the development site for our new our new demolition has started and procurement of the equipment suppliers is on going it is estimated that the new facility and associated site will be commissioned by frangier 2526 however that over that period we know the existing block in facility which is 14 plus years old is coming to the end of its natural life and what will end up happening is that site will be scaled back over time and in line with the opening of the new site so we've realized that we're still looking at another two to three years of operations at the block here in site there'll be a general reduction until the new site is ready and operationally in terms of the step chains of glasgo yeah in the last couple of years glasgo has really set the border homes to look to do a step chain supported by the scottish government to align our services so today the 21 million pound along with investment from glas city council has allowed us to invest in new infrastructure in terms of recycling facility block it's on the east of queensley and we're in the process of commencing after christmas period and deduction of a paper and card and mixed containers service for care side properties which will see an increase in recycling from that type of material the biggest challenge i've said already for glasgo is two third of the housing stock is communal properties communal properties are a notoriously difficult to recycle from as i said there's no ownership of material all you need is one one resident from a block of tenements to contaminate a bin which makes the whole bin contaminated so although we're not a plan in place we are working still with zero waste scotland on what will the future design of that side of the service look like and we're looking to understand how will we develop the high density properties it's not as straightforward as a care upside property as we've already said it's got its challenges so we understand what will that service look like more importantly how will we fund it and that's going to be the biggest challenge for glasgo so we're on a trajectory of improvements we are seeing already some very early signs of improvements from the infrastructure work we've done in place because there's still a lot of work done in glasgo and investment needed to really kind of buck the trend of the county safe and the targets there's something sacred um thank you David you answered a very specific constituency question which i've sort of let slide through um i may be not so generous in the future but bob got away with it on this time but i'm not going to go to the deputy convener for some focused questions ben thank you convener um just it's really invaluable to get your insight today because the practicalities on the ground particularly when it comes to implementation and enforcement are so crucial in this area of consideration so just in that space how useful do you consider the proposed new household waste enforcement mechanisms in the bill to be of finding households through fixed or civil penalties for misuse of waste services and also similarly the new criminal offence in relation to the household duty of care to check credentials of waste carriers um do you see these as gaps in your current enforcement toolkit in other words the bill is drafted will it make a meaningful difference um two parts do you mean dealing about the recycling enforcement recycling although enforcement in any means is a as a tool needed to improve something i think in from a Glasgow perspective and i think for local authorities as well the residents in the communities that generally struggled we've been struggled to engage with and recycle are areas which have um language barriers or areas of um unemployment or poorer incomes and therefore we don't see how the enforcement or a fixed penalty notice on the types of these householders will make a difference where we see a huge a bigger benefit and across all recycling and all local authorities is the education the the engagement trying to behave don't change a big significant challenge we've got in Glasgow but i they're saying that local authority is behavioral changes we're trying to put infrastructure putting systems in place is great we can put the best infrastructures in place across the city if we can't get the residents to use it effectively and efficiently we're kind of wasting their time so although fixed penalties notices may be a tool to be used i think what needs to be done is far more engagement education at a national level to try and change behaviors about recycling in terms of the duty of care i do think there has to be more responsibility on people who could add the material and stop fly tipping and there is a feeling that if somebody gets somebody with a wind fan to come pick the material up that's their part that's their part done and nine times at ten some of this material ends up side of the road illegally tipped which has caused problems so i do think having people's awareness and responsibility of their requirements to get to set or appropriately move waste in their homes is required bryden if you've got any more to add you're on bryden the bin police we're on the bin police yeah but we're quite fortunate in shetland that bin contamination uh and also your white van man these week we don't have any as far as we we don't have any white van men going around offering to take away waste um so we're looking that regards it's a small place obviously so it's a lot easier to police that kind of thing i would fully agree with david um i don't think a fine would be the right way to go i think education is the key to that um we've had some issues with bins and contamination up here but the target system that we use and speaking to the people they'll four up and just having the conversation with them is sometimes all it takes for them to to realise what they're doing wrong something's just they don't know um so i would i would say that education is the way to go and fine would be the very very last scenario i would say okay that that's helpful so um finding households you say is is less of a priority than educating households but holding um carriers of waste to a higher degree of account is something that you support yeah oh definitely yeah um yeah i get david's point entirely the problems that's down south and in the more kind of urban areas it must be a bit of a pain to say the least not so many of any experience appear with but i would fully support that and um in terms of contamination which if i can just come back to to hearing Glasgow's considerations around this given that uh shetland has you've stated that shetland doesn't have a problem with contamination of recyclet so maybe there's some lessons we can learn from there um but uh in terms of the contamination uh feel free to just answer yes to this question but it seems that uh in order to change that it's about changing household behavior and education and information um yes there's a need for more sustainable product design and um producer responsibility but actually it's all about making sure that people put the right waste in the right place david you want to answer on that yes i agree to that i think probably the statement of trying to make waste as simple as possible for the residents to know they're all right but i know where it's going to go will be a significant issue a significant benefit thank you and just last the convener if i may ask one more question um and this is regard to food waste um which is relatively new in terms of households getting in the habit of of separating their food waste but there's been some some reasonable success in this however um some uh stakeholders have raised concerns with us about the rise of bioplastics in food waste and we've heard evidence about how food waste can be contaminated with plastic liners that are non biodegradable so do we need to get a consistent position to make sure that individuals households are putting their food waste in biodegradable liners and that these ideally would be provided to households to help them in that in that effort to avoid the the contamination of food waste by bioplastics i normal plastic bags yeah i agree contamination of food waste or organic waste into the in the supply chain is extremely challenging does have an impact on the range user um what we do need to consider though and it's back to investment is different plans different um recycles of this material have different um different plans they can accept different types of material so i do think the investment in the system investment in the infrastructure is needed but again a consistent approach through all local authorities using the same materials recycling um the same same education information going out there but linking it to the supplier the the reprocessor to make sure that everything you're doing is in line with their ability to recycle at the end i think that's suffice okay i think mark you had a specific question uh that you wanted to raise on on that mark yeah i wanted to ask about you know the wider point around charging for household waste collections not just special uplift but for um for for standard collections you know that i mean there has been some responses to the bill that suggested that this works in europe and there are ways to do it in a in a way which is is fair i'm a kind of save as a recycle type scheme but i wanted to get your your opinions on that because not currently a provision within the bill um but whether that's something that that um you know you can reflect on um maybe start with david and then bryden yeah i've seen um very variable charging across europe when it has worked successfully um a concern would be um is how you minister it and for us as a from my own perspective my city of glasgo how would you how would you manage it and force it and as a communal areas where multiple people use bins not these not the ones that have been all responsible for it but so we'd be concerned about how that's going to be administered in in a large city bryden yeah i suppose you share david's concerns with that um it's not something i've really considered to be honest with you but yeah i sent what david's kind of summed it up how i'd agree with okay i'm gonna come to douglas lumsden with your questions douglas thanks given i think some of them have been answered already but i was going to go back to the point you made about um local recycling targets um i think it was david or maybe it was both of you has actually suggested that maybe recycling targets wasn't the best measure to judge councils on would you agree on that and if it's not going to be recycling targets what should we be measuring recycling targets are part of the probably the story however every local authority will have different challenges to meet recycling targets so you couldn't you probably couldn't easily compare a glasgo to a shetland to a less urban type of um authority because the different challenges it has um what i would say is in addition to recycling targets that are tailored to the demand and the needs of that city or that that local authority we're looking at the wider things like the version from landfill recovery and looking at the carbon impact of the cradle to grave of the journey these are the things we need to look at as well not just a single recycling target because it doesn't give the full picture of what's the the journey of that the journey of ways from cradle to grave briden any to add i would say that um i don't think targets yeah as david says it's hard to compare different local authorities and likes of ourselves i'll say again probably but um if we were to start recycling another material and ship that from the island all of our trailers are shipping off at hundreds of miles on road and boat to get to where they need to go and at some point well you have to take in consideration that as well um what other what other um you should have for measuring that i don't know but uh let me look at the whole picture special well up here in shetland center it's the whole picture i'll be looking at okay and just a next question you mentioned pop's waste um earlier on and we heard from the last panel that um in terms of disposing of sofas that's going to be particularly difficult um next i think it's from next january how are both your local authorities looking at how you would deal with that sofa waste at the moment the guidance is well there's been a few discussions with the waste management network and that and it's uh it seems to be changing back and forth um we've obviously got the incinerator up here um so slightly more advantage in other places so we're currently looking at different options how it's going to work but as i say it's changed a couple of times just this past few months so just keep an eye on the situation and trying to follow it basically david yeah we're a bit very similar what we are we're a big focus on just now is the separation that's material obviously a lot of our material comes in from commercial companies house associations and flytip and etc and even from the from the public user recycling centres what we want to make sure is that pop material is kept separately to start with so we're not contaminating full of material types and we're in discussion last the market about end destinations that's material um obviously industries there's a lot of uncertainty and just where it can go can't stay in the UK will have to be shipped abroad to other energy from waste plants there's still a lot of questions but the early feedback we've been receiving is the costs associated with the the end destruction of this material is significant therefore a lot of our we understand there's going to be a significant pressure to our budgets going forward but what we need to do where possible is minimise the volume of that material we are firstly collecting and sending on to these suppliers so it's going to be extremely challenging for local government for moving forward because what we heard from the last panel is that some recycling centres are are going to be refusing to take so far and i guess that leads into the probably end up being flytipped instead but i think probably takes us on to the next set of questions community okay perfect and monica you did have a question on this on on uh and i wondered if you wanted to raise that before i brought murder in um no i'm happy to okay perfect thank you and i'm i'm grateful for you allowing us to move on because time is short murder i think you some questions you may be flawed by the answers you got from shetland but let's see how you go thank you thank you good morning gentlemen on the panel i'm i've got particular interest around fly tipping i've got a member's bill in preparation around this and i very much welcome section 10 in the bill which is about the enhanced duty on on householders so that's that's good progress i think i've got three questions on fly tipping which i'll just ask together and just get your view on um first of all we know fly tipping is a serious issue it's an urban issue as much as a rural issue there is concern at the the level of fixed penalty notices which is currently set at 200 pounds there's nothing actually in this bill suggesting that these should be increased but in the scottish government's fly tipping strategy they published in june it suggested increasing that to 500 pounds i'm interested to get your view on that question whether that is a sufficient deterrent or not secondly when i ran my consultation on fly tipping one issue that came back very strongly was people saying that the more we put barriers in the way of legal disposal of waste the more we are likely to drive up rates of fly tipping so if councils are for example reducing access to recycling centres as many are currently doing due to budgetary issues is that actually going to see more fly tipping and i'd be interested to get your views on that and thirdly and lastly is there anything you think that's not in this bill that would be useful to you when it comes to trying to address this this problem of fly tipping should we get to bryden first because it might that might be the easy question for you bryden while while david's thinking of the answers yeah again shetland being a small place everybody knows each other so the tents are not be too much fly tipping that goes on i did check before as meeting there was 13 instances of fly tipping last year in the financial year um no no finds have ever been issued either mainly because the types of items that are getting left is a mattress or a fridge with no name on it so you can't possibly find out who's disposed that item thankfully it's not very much in shetland so we just go and collect it and get rid of it there's matters of fly tipping but it's not a major issue up here okay perfect so david now you've had a chance to marshal your thoughts yeah um yeah fly tipping in in glasgo is a is a significant challenge and um and i'll probably split it into two different types of fly tipping a lot of fly tippings anything that's lying in the street on the public domain we can as we get two different challenges one is what we classic commercial the fly tipping companies the white van man that type of company fly tipping in county areas lanes sometimes in private land as well that is a significant challenge for us in certain especially in certain areas of the city and although we've got enforcement powers and enforcement teams in place it is still extremely challenging to gather enough information and evidence to sometimes challenge these people um so although increasing any penalties is a a file deterrent it's given us the ability to gather information and act on it as quickly as possible to to make that deterrent it can be difficult for example we are we are currently working with a number of multi another agencies within certainly is the city to try and tackle fly tipping working with the place for working with house association community groups to try and tackle it and although we're all working together there's no quick solution or easy solution on this so therefore any more powers we have backed up if the resources will be gratefully received another issue we've gone probably on to the second part is what we call sideways fly tipping this is where residents maybe put us a sofa they'll put bags waste they've done some work in that house and rather than taking to recycling center arranging a bulk uplift they'll put it next to a bin they'll put it the end of their street next to a community area expecting something to pick it up there's two issues to this that there's one of the challenges we see is over the number of years with some of the financial constraints in the local authorities charging has come in for bulk up lifts there has been extra restrictions as you see in some access to recycling centers and does this have an impact on fly tipping another challenge we've got in an area like Glasgow is not a lot everybody has access to a car so therefore directing people to the household waste recycling business not which is predominantly set up to the access to vehicle can be quite challenging and if people don't have the the finances to pay for bulk uplift that material is left on the street so although it's fly tipping Jenny from the house it's still a significant challenge and that is where we look at is looking at funding local government or local authorities waste services to allow us to be a free free of charge service something that might be a look at but it goes back to my last point sometimes education the engagements where residents more appropriate about the appropriate way to dispose of waste might go a long way as well to resolve it thank you thank you both very much and thank you David for that and just one follow-up to you David if i can given what you said about problems with enforcement which I absolutely appreciate and resourcing if we were to increase the level of penalties would it be helpful if there were some mechanisms whereby you could ring fence of that money that would then go back into a better enforcement for example more resource into your own team for example I don't look after the enforcement, it's a separate entity, I couldn't really comment on the ring fence element but I would support any investment in additional enforcement officers will be while they're received I know there's a national difficulty in recruiting some enforcement officers and that's either business as well so I think mechanisms need to be in place to encourage and engage and get people into that line of work but any funding to support additional enforcement would be greatly received. Just before we leave this subject we heard in the last evidence session and we've heard it before about people who are uplifting rubbish could apply for an online certificate which costs in the mid £200 which is a paper certificate with no checks on it at all. David would you support liveried vans only for collection of rubbish with the license number printed on the side to help residents understand that it was an authorised collector and that then checks were made to ensure that that waste found its way to the recycling centre and not the edge of a road or wherever else it might end up. Yeah I totally support there is a lot of operators out there that have with CARES licenses that we don't know the background checks before it so therefore anything that makes it easier for the residents for businesses to use vertical businesses will be the great support it so if that could be information inside the vehicles or some form of database that you'd go into to find out has supplementary checks been done that would be better because we know there's people out there operating with waste managers licenses that aren't compliant. Okay and sorry just to push one more thing I think in the evidence we heard that you know if it costs £200 to pick up the rubbish that has been flytipped that it should be a five times multiple for charging people is that enough would you favour more or should that be the minimum because £500 actually doesn't go very far if there's a chunk of rubbish. No the cost of waste to to responsibly deal with in a bad way is expensive there's no doubt about it so I think any fine has to be aligned to the true cost to collect it to uplift it so therefore £500 might not be enough to tend it for some operators. It has to be reflected of the material where it's been left and the impact it's having on the environment as well so I think increasing the fines to a reasonable a far greater level would be beneficial. Okay Jackie I think you had a question you wanted to follow up on on that. Yes it's following along the same kind of lines it's regarding I think we've heard it from some evidence we've already taken about do you think that manufacturers or suppliers should be taking more responsibility in recycling the older goods for example if you buy a washing machine you can pay you may be getting a chance to to pay like £10 or something for the folk that's dropping off the new washing machine to uplift your old one and do you think there should be more of that for sofas or etc moving forward? David? Yeah more takebacks we can build into the system the better so that case I've got a true circular query then if materials can go back into the system we need puppies repaired and put back into use I do think we're certain certain material types the producers and then obviously people selling the materials should take responsibility taking them back and finding appropriate recovery or recycling facilities in the back of it but I'll go back to something I've mentioned earlier on it's okay taking something back and recovering things there has to be the supply chain to do something with that and if our investment needs to be done and a lot there is going to be a high carbon impact on materials that the supply chain has to be in place to allow that to be recycled or recovered effectively in more in cost effectively as well sometimes for example especially with shetland irons on the northern and local authorities shipping material down to the central belt or down in tingland it's very expensive so therefore it's making sure that these supply chains are in place and it's cost effective to the old authority as well um bryden do you might cost more to recycle in in shetland do you have a view on that yeah no i would fully agree the more take back schemes the better um yeah and yeah the cost of recycling shenland is obviously a lot more as i say before every time we even think about putting a trailer on the boat it's one thousand pound to start before even get that to just like dabbardine so um yeah that's for sure okay um yeah happy with that jackie yes thank you very much i'm gonna come to sarah boyack uh now and then i'm gonna go to mark ruskell to to wrap the session up many thanks convener it's been really good getting your evidence today in the written submission cosla said that the financial memorandum vastly underestimates the cost for local authorities and overestimates potential income and that was reinforced in the first panel day so can we get your views from the ground what would be your asks both to meet higher recycling targets but also to link into the wider net zero and sustainable development goals that i think in your written evidence um that was something that was raised um maybe go to glasgo first right um can i briefly discuss the other one of my answers um for glasgo to make that step chain which avoid the committee tune there is significant investment needed in improving our infrastructure improving our supply chain but also keeping in top of the education enforcement the training of our staff and the residents of glasgo so significant investment needed in that but we also need from a local government perspective uh it's quite hard to say this but a very kind of stable political landscape not like a policy landscape there's a lot of changes and that's been a significant change in the waste industry in the five years i don't think it's going to calm down much in the right it's kind of three to five years so it's difficult to understand what investments needed to commit in long-term strategic directions without with this uncertainty still there so there's two things but we do need the capital investment to improve to invest in infrastructure we'll also need a kind of a more stable policy landscape in terms of embedding circular economy full-time i think a lot of it is embedding practices so the circular economy bill will hopefully support embedding circular economy practice into day-to-day life into how we consume things how we buy things but also how we operate our businesses making sure that circular economy is built into how we work how we work in other lives and i do think legislation and policy will be able to do that to embed into local government businesses to make that to make that a reality i think just one area on its own won't work it has to be embedded across different areas to make it truly circular thank you that's very helpful thanks and uh from shetland bryden have you got a view on this yeah i mean if we're speaking about shetland's recycling rate then how we're trying to improve it obviously we want to improve it all the time um stave touch sun has been quite a lot of changes this past few years with likes of the drs scheme that we kind of hinged on and we're waiting to see what pop's going to happen with that because that's going to extract a lot of our stuff from our household recycling scheme which would then give us a bit more room for working with likes of you know potstubs and trays for example for plastics so that was our plan um which would have boosted the recycling figures but that's changed so we're kind of slightly limbo still so uh stage is maybe just a bit of stability in uh clear way forward and again for shetland um definitely worth looking at the whole picture um you know we could we could spend a lot of money on fancy equipment to separate material but if the material the amount of material on the island is not very much is it worth you know is it going to be worth putting that equipment in so the alternative for that is do we ship it away for somebody else to do it and is it worth it then uh when you're taking the carbon footprint of the ship the stuff for on some other island boating trucks um so yeah there's a lot of thinking to do overall it's in that case look at our figure thinking how can we get that better like puts which actually the best way forward for shetland and taking everything into consideration not just recycling yeah that's very helpful that idea about clarity for supply chains and investment i suppose the challenge is how you use the opportunity of this legislation and the discussions around it to actually get that thank you very much computer okay thank you mark i think you've got a couple of questions you'd like to pose yes thanks combina um just a couple questions i may be just write them up together the last panel uh mentioned the recycling improvement fund i just wanted to get your perspectives on that how you've used that in if you have in recent years and whether you see a continuation of that fund as being important to deliver the aspects that uh that are covered by this bill and then just a broader point about about the bill i mean it is a framework bill it does have provisions to bring in secondary legislation so maybe just a reflection on whether you've engaged with secretary legislation in the past such as the positive return scheme uh other other you know bits of secretary legislation that are in this kind of waste management space and you know what the most effective way is for you to for you to do that in terms of being able to input a few ahead of decisions being made or is this being scrutinised in parliament right and you start yourself i'll go to david yeah touch on your second point i mean like the drs where that was being spoken but we were speaking quite a lot with the ministers of that scheme and what how that's going to work in shellig because it's obviously it's going to be a slight bit of a nightmare to be honest with you because there was talk about shipping the material loose in trailers which would increase your amount of trails leaving shetland we weren't going to be able to bail it you know bail the material to bulk it up so there's an awful lot of work which wasn't you know right until the very last minute wasn't really looked at too much um so yeah i mean we we would have been keen to to do whatever we could to help there we tried to come up with some kind of solution where shetland's council would still run the recycling to a point um but yeah it was just needs a bit more thought before that actually does get implemented and sorry could you repeat your first question again just to remind me yeah it's about the recycling improvement fund whether you've used that and how significant you see that as a way of delivering some of the provisions and investments that are needed that will come out of this bill yeah um i'm not trying to make excuses here but we uh back into 2018 that's when we rolled out our household recycling scheme and we signed up for the charter so at that point we got a lot of funding we got a new baler new can balers new materials recycling facility new shed bins a lot so to be honest with you the the recycling improvement fund was slightly probably too late for us we we'd gone ahead and done our work then and to be honest with you um we didn't go for any funding with the recycling improvement scheme because at the time we're still kind of waiting to see what's happening with drs which was going to change what happened in shetland so i was really a bit unsure what what direction to go with things we could have gone more glass recycling but the glass is going to come out of the um with the drs anyway so uh not to make excuses but that's that's kind of why we didn't put in for the fund yeah David yes um recycling improvement fund for glass was being a bit of a success story so um a glass was signed up to the charter for household waste recycling 2020 2021 i think it was and the recycling improvement fund allowed us to start to learn on that so um today we have actually received 21 million just over 21 million pound from the fund to roll out a improving site conservice to our curbside properties and develop a new materials recovery facility however there's still a lot to be done in Glasgow and there's still a lot to be done in all local authorities so if fund has been well received for us it's allowed us to kick start that next step for us however for us and other local authorities additional funding is needed to really get to where we need to be um i was fine in terms of engagement about um other policies and to see um bills the deposit return scheme i said that like ladzol we're quite lucky that we do get involved in a lot of things with the consultations involved with the scottish government zero waste scottland about new policies and legislation coming in place the deposit return scheme for us we were involved quite heavily with the consultations but we're working with zero waste scottland and with scottland and the kind of private sector on how it would be delivered in Glasgow unfortunately the pause of the scheme has impacted on some of our potential service changes we have to go back to and look at how we're going to do with glass going forward however i think probably with all legislation and all legislation involving local government at an early stage to understand the concerns the challenges at that level is needed for any of these schemes to be successful thank you mark does that answer your questions um yeah i think so cut out a little bit at the end but i suppose the question is like based on the engagement you've had already with the development of drs and other and other schemes is that the kind of model of engagement you would expect going forward so if there are you know more secondary legislation that's coming down the tracks you'd expect that early engagement you'd expect joint work with zero waste scottland and through cosla has that kind of you know despite some of the complexities around drs and the changes is that generally kind of works is that an appropriate way for you to be engaged within this and does that deliver enough certainty i suppose sorry david back to yourself yeah from a glass perspective that level of consultation engagement was extremely extremely beneficial for us and also feeding back into the the wider data garden for the scheme so that's what anything going forward that our preferred model would be is that early engagement different partners looking at different local authorities looking at trade bodies as well to make sure every these views and opinions are heard in the early stage rather than being implemented on people without really having an input bryden do you want to say anything yeah i would i would just agree any any future developments like the drs or anything else secondary then shernan's councils always wanting to to work with these people to make sure you're going to work in an island as well as during the mainland as well okay thank you i hope mark that's that's you you finished with your questions because we are so nearly out of time i'd like to thank uh both of you on the panel in as it were that could speak um thank you very much for attending and for paul paul who who couldn't speak um if there are any issues that that you've watched and seen today that you'd like to feedback to on behalf of the murray council we'd be grateful to receive this uh we've uh i think our stage one report will be published in january um and we look forward to sharing it with you and everyone else who's given evidence in the session and as agreed earlier we are now going to move it from public into private session i would ask members to stay seated and for those who are not participating in the private session to leave as quickly as possible thank you so we now move into private