 So good evening everyone and thank you for joining us for our webcast careers in law librarianship around table discussion. And it's amazing to see the incredible interest for a program and the field of law librarianship. And very exciting to see the number of registrations for our event I know that we have a fair number of those interested who will be viewing the recording later so we're having to provide that everybody who is in attendance will also get a link to the recording. Once the session or event has concluded and we processed the recording so look forward to that in your emails. And just as a quick introduction. My name is Vicky Steiner. I'm an instructor here at San Jose State University School of Information. And I'm so honored to host our esteemed panel of speakers today, who represent work in different areas of law librarianship and have a wealth of information to share about opportunities and trends in law librarianship and how to be a competitive job applicant, how to conduct a successful job interview and get over to our agenda here so we can see general topic areas we'll be talking about today. Also scholarship and mentorship opportunities and strategies for effective networking and much, much more. So I think your inquiry today. Most people think of academic law libraries and reference when they think of law librarianship. So there are many more job opportunities available and other types of legal information environments such as government or public library, law libraries, private law firms and even corporate organizations. And within those environments opportunities are available in both brick and mortar and remote settings and we'll hear about that today as well. So I don't want to take away from our panelists presenting time because we have a lot to share with you today. So each speaker will be providing their own brief introduction. And the general format today is just what the event suggests conversational style round table discussion where each of our speakers will share their advice and expertise, and we'll open it up for questions to everybody in attendance. We do have a Q&A section that you can post your questions throughout we'll be addressing those at the end. So do enter those in the Q&A, and we'll look forward to answering those questions at the end of this presentations. So without further ado, I'm going to turn it over to our amazing speakers. And again, thank you all for joining us today. Hi everyone, my name is Havala. I am a research and knowledge analyst at Ogletree Deacons, which is a global labor and employment firm. Before then I was at San Diego Public Law Library, and I graduated from the high school in 2020. Before that I earned my paralegal certificate and I was one of those weird kids growing up who always said that we're going to be a judge. So, I don't know, law librarian judge, we made it. I'm so glad to be here. Good evening everybody. I'm Diane Ellis and I'm the lawyer who always wanted to be a librarian. So after practicing law for 30 years, I finally applied and was accepted to and started attending the MLS program at San Jose State University. I graduated last year and joined the law library at the USC Gold School of Law. And now I'm a law librarian research services and adjunct consistent professor of law. I teach legal research to first year law students as well as conducting legal research workshops for some USC undergraduates and also provide a reference and research services to the gold faculty and students. And I'm very happy to be here with you all tonight. Hello. My name is Cheryl Kelly Fisher. I'm an academic librarian. I came to law librarianship the long way. One of my former careers, I was a practicing attorney. And then I went to library school. I worked at the UCLA law library for about 15 years. I was a reference librarian and the head of instructional services there before becoming the director of the law library here at the Loyola Law School in downtown Los Angeles. Very happy to be here. Hi, I'm Diana Jacques. I'm an associate dean and the John Stafford Law Library director here at the USC law school. I began my career in this library many years ago as a library assistant. And this was such a supportive culture here that I went to San Jose State and obtained my MLIS. And then later I was encouraged to seek a law degree, which I completed at Loyola Law School. So it's unusual that I first went to library school and then to law school second. My work is also the work I've done and the positions I've had prior to being director is also unusual and that my background is in acquisitions and collection development. I negotiated licensing agreements and negotiated pricing for databases. So that's unusual for a library director. I am really happy to be here as a former grad of this program. And I'm just so proud that we have so many interested people here today. Hi everyone, my name is Sangita Powell and I am the access services librarian at the UCLA school of law library. Prior to that I for many, many years worked at as in various positions as a library assistant, and then later as a project manager. I did that for more than 20 years in libraries. And most of those years were in the law library. I also had a little bit of a unique route in that I didn't go back from my MLIS degree until almost 15 years after my undergraduate degree. I had been working in law libraries for many years at that point. And so I knew that I wanted to stay in the world of law libraries. So when I was getting my MLIS, I did some exploring on career options in law librarianship, because I unlike many of the others here do not have my JD. And I think that I am actually too old to go back to law school at this point. So I am happy that I found a career path that worked that doesn't require. So I'm thrilled to be here. I'm looking forward to talking with you all. Hi, everybody. So I am Holly Riccio. I'm the director currently at the California Judicial Center Library, which is the library that serves the California Supreme Court and the California Court of Appeals First Appellate District. Now, I guess in full disclosure, since we're talking about what we wanted to be as children or whatever. I alphabetized my records in high school and I think that was a sign and also both my parents were librarians in full disclosure. So I think this was destined for me. And although I'm in the court now I actually spent my career and kind of grew up in law firms. I started as a reference librarian. I've also held positions where I worked not only reference but I was also kind of embedded with the marketing team. I worked on management roles and supervisory roles in firms and even took on a very kind of different role where I was the person that developed and led an inaugural internal leadership development training program for managers and supervisors within the firm. And also became a liaison to the KM group from the library. And my last job at a firm, I was actually the director of library and knowledge management. And one of the things I got to do there was revamp and launch a brand new internet and kind of transition a team from kind of a library point of view to a more KM centric staff. So definitely have had kind of a breath of information and things that I've done within law firms. I do not have a JD. But I have my library degree from many years ago and really happy to be here with this group and hopefully add, you know, another point of view to the ones that we already have here which is fantastic. Excellent. Thank you everyone for those introductions. And so we're just going to dive right into our discussion I'm going to stop the screen share and make it away everyone. I think I'll kick it off. So the first topic on our agenda is to talk a little bit about some opportunities and current trends in law librarianship hiring. So I can start with this one and speak to trends from hiring in the academic law library angle. Before I dive in though I think I should preface my comments with a really quick rundown of the typical degree requirements for an academic law librarian which includes the MLIS degree for librarians working in departments like access and collections management and technical services. There's also a reference and research instruction librarian position specifically there's often an additional degree required and that of course is you know the law degree of the JD. So the first trend I think is noteworthy is the increase in academic law librarian postings between the years of 2021 and 2022. I think that 55% increase in them according to some data from the American Association of Law Libraries Career Center job list and the people who are you know hypothesizing the reasons for that increase would say things like COVID retirements and hiring freezes and the great resignation, all made the space for this flood of postings that occurred once you know many institutions emerged from those hiring freezes. And then I think you know quick skim of those recently posted positions show that many of them are entry level, or at least open to applicants with just a few years of experience. And if I were to choose a few other noteworthy characteristics of the recent postings that are worth mentioning I'd say there's more that focus on digital resources than there were before COVID although you know of course things were trending towards digital already. And then I think you know academia is still more often than not an in person industry, but I'd say the fact that hybrid positions are much more available now than ever before is noteworthy. You know offering the chance to work remote one or more days per week for positions where you know there are duties amenable to offsite work. And the second trend I wanted to mention is anecdotal though it is currently being studied and that's the notable amount of these many new job postings that are remaining unfilled. One of the most discussed hypotheses for these for this is, you know the idea that the dual degree requirement for academic low labor reference positions that JD plus the MLIS might be too high a barrier for entry to the profession and so that's true across the board I'm not sure but significantly true for people of color and marginalized community members so one of the reasons that a dual degree might be a barrier is student loan debt of course. And so with an eye towards, you know, increasing diversity in the profession. There's a lot of discussion and some action even taking place around the idea of dropping that dual degree requirement from at least some academic low librarian position so those are some things I think are noteworthy trends from the academic angle. Thank you so much Cheryl, I'm going to speak from the position of being fairly new to the industry this is now the beginning of my fourth year in law librarianship, and I would definitely say when you read job requirements and job postings. Know that there are suggestions. I was hired as a part time reference librarian before I had completed my MLIS I was actually had a year left. And I started part time at San Diego law library before I had completed my master's degree. And I know that it takes a lot of courage to read a job posting and then immediately say oh I don't qualify for this here's six different reasons I would challenge you to read the job description say okay, here's one thing that I can definitely bring to the table and then just start building from there. My job search definitely changed. I would say while I was in my MLIS program was definitely looking for those keywords of librarian reference librarian library assistant, or as three years under my belt the public law library I started to see more words analyst knowledge management is huge at the firm level. So then I would change your keywords searching for those job postings I would definitely check out job boards like the double a double a website of course but then also your local chapters, like the SCAL Southern California Association of Law Libraries, SCAL, as well as when you're thinking about your skills when it comes to the table yes I know your students but a lot of you come from very diverse backgrounds and that's a huge leg up. And you should learn how to read a job description and transfer experiences that may be a little bit different for a big example of this is customer service. That's pretty ubiquitous across all librarianship roles. Mine is 100% remote, but I'm still interacting with practicing attorneys paralegals professionals all day long. And so customer service that can come from anything that can come from custodial that can come from fast food work that can come from working in retail. And so I would say, even if you are just beginning your program, start your job search now, because I was able to write out the pandemic with a full time position at San Diego Law Library which is a huge blessing right in the midst of a lot of different layoffs. And I'm very grateful for that and I think that from semester one, the program really prepares you to start that journey running. So those are my little tidbits. And I would say, I found great success without a JD. I of course want one. I don't know if it's just a feather in my cap, or the fact that going to law school, a woods made it look so fun. I know it's not that fun. I would say a paralegal certificate really equipped me with those legal research skills Vicki's class if you haven't taken it yet shameless plug, take her legal research class it was excellent. And definitely read through your resume with a judicious I say okay, here's what I do have here's what I do bring to the table. And lastly, just to hit on knowledge management again is a huge trend in firm librarianship and that's where that's where you're going to see those panelists positions. I see Diane you took your mic off do you have something to share. When you're when you're when you've completed your as you're doing a fabulous job that I'm just ready to segue into the next section. Oh Holly did you have anything then before we segue to the next topic. And I guess the only thing I can add from the government side is that sometimes positions. You know it takes a long time to change titles or titles to be very like generic right it'll just say law library and you know but you're essentially the director right I mean so I guess I would just you know just say you've got to read through you know for a government position you've got to look at it for a court or something like that and just look at what's actually in the job description and you know the title may not necessarily match. And that's what we get again like everybody said you know read the description and see what kind of fits with your skills and you know and go ahead and take a chance. All right then I'm going to jump in here and I'm going to do a quick share screen that hopefully will come up. Can everyone see that I've got some Prezi slides up here. All right you see my pretty flower here OK everybody. So first up I want to do a special shout out to anybody who's gone back to school after being out of school for a while, or is looking to make a career change. Because I just want to tell you that it's not too late and if you're thinking about doing it jump in there. Apply to law school apply to library school and be prepared to make a change that maybe you've wanted to make for a very long time. So, as I said, I was a practicing attorney for a very long time. So a year ago I was an MLIS student at San Jose State University, and I was a practicing attorney. I graduated in May. I interviewed in July and in August I started here at the USC Gold School of Law. Two weeks after coming to work at USC, I was teaching two legal research classes to first year law students. I had no experience working in any library and I had no experience teaching, but luckily I was supported by a great group of librarians and a great library staff. So, looking back at how I got here and what helped me get this position. I wanted to talk about a few different things that can help you I think stand out as a job candidate when you're looking for a job in law librarianship. So we're going to briefly talk about which classes will be helpful, what kind of experiences will help you get hired, and which skills will help you succeed. So first of all, let's look at classes. So first and foremost is legal resources and legal research. And I want to second what Havilah said about taking Professor Steiner's class at San Jose State University. If you wanted work in any kind of law librarianship you've got to be able to do legal research and this is particularly true if you don't have a JD. So a good class at library school is going to be invaluable to you. And even though I'd been a practicing attorney for 30 years at the time I took this class. It helped me rethink my approach to legal research and sort of doing it from the ground up, instead of just jumping in as I would as an attorney who'd been doing that. And that experience in the legal research class has really helped me it's been invaluable when I've been teaching legal research myself. Other types of helpful classes are those that are technology oriented. When I was in law school I typed my papers on an IBM Electric Selectric typewriter. And particularly for older students, a lack of familiarity with current technology can be a very real barrier to success in school. So I took technology tools, I learned how to do basic coding, and I learned how to create a basic website. It was a great learning experience for me and after that I was so proud of my little, frankly, lame website that I'd created that whenever I took a new class at San Jose State and you did an introductory post I would link to my website so they can see pictures of my pets and learn all about me. But it was a great experience and got me a lot more comfortable with current technology. So classes that are service and teaching oriented are very helpful. And then particularly one class at San Jose State that's available is peer mentoring. San Jose State students have the opportunity to act as peer mentors for the new MLS students. I highly recommend applying to serve as a peer mentor if the opportunity arises for you. It gave me the opportunity to work with educational technology tools like canvas, but working on them from the instructor side. It taught me to teach using webinars and videos to become familiar with learning theories to grade students work and to address the needs and questions of MLS students. Other helpful classes address issues facing libraries and learning the basics of cataloging and also going back for a moment up to the top. Other helpful classes are government information sources and Internet searching anymore so much information is digitized now that you need to be able to find information on the web. Whether it's at a government source or an other source that's available online. So another issue that may come up is what is your experience? What kind of experience will be helpful? So when I was looking for a job in law librarianship, a barrier I faced was that I didn't have any experience working in a law library or an academic library. And many libraries when I was looking at their job postings and Havilah was spot on with this, don't just look at a job posting and think I don't qualify for this or this doesn't apply to me. Many libraries wanted someone with one to three years of library experience, which I obviously didn't have, but some were willing to consider my practicing law as an alternative to experience in a law library. Now, on reflection, while I was at San Jose State, I was working full time and then COVID hit and everything was shut down. But if there's one thing I could would go back and do differently, I would certainly try to get an internship position in a library or get a job working in a library. But my point is don't be afraid to apply for jobs where you might not exactly fit the job description. So even though I lacked library experience, working as a lawyer for so long gives me a unique viewpoint in teaching legal research and that's a plus. So figure out what unique things you bring to the table. Other ways to get good experience, like said practicing law volunteering at a library or again acting as a peer mentor. So another issue I want to briefly address is what skills will be helpful for you in law librarianship and obviously this is particularly in an academic law library. First and foremost, legal research skills. This includes being able to work with Lexis and Westlaw with nexus uni, which is more of an undergraduate version of Lexis. Bluebird Google Scholar. There's lots of online sources where you need to be able to use your legal research skills and find information. Service skills are helpful teaching and reference skills. I found I've really enjoyed teaching and I'm still learning and working to be a better teacher. And again, technical skills like learning to prepare live guides. I did a couple of live guides while I was at San Jose State, I'm working on a couple now at USC learning to prepare instructional videos. And this came up in a lot of classes learning to do slide presentations, whether PowerPoint or Google slides or in this case I'm using Prezi. But in conclusion, I want to just say don't be afraid to leave your comfort zone. Librarians provide a helpful and supportive environment. And I just wanted to let you know to to please feel free to contact me if you have any questions about either being a lawyer and going back to school to get your library degree about what it's like to work as a law librarian after having another career for a very long time. I'm more than happy to speak with any of you so please feel free to contact me. Thanks Diane. So I think I'm up next. And when I started thinking about how to be a competitive applicant, a lot of different things came to mind. And one thing that I noticed just in the in a little bit of time that we've been in this round table so far, is you're going to find that many of us are saying very similar things, possibly coming from it from slightly different directions. But at first I was thinking about adjusting what I was going to say and then I thought, perhaps we do need to repeat ourselves a little bit, just so that we can help drive home the point. So my number one piece of advice for when you are applying for jobs and trying to be a competitive applicant is really to market yourself. So have a mention this Diane mentioned this, but seriously cannot tell you how important it is for you to spend some time reading the job description, spend some time reading the required skills, and then think about how your skills and experiences can relate to that or contribute to it, or maybe you don't have the direct experiences that the job description is calling for. But what are transferable skills that you can bring to the position, because the reality is these are all human resource issues, and we are all people and we all come to the table with our backgrounds and skills and experiences and journeys and paths to how we came to the profession, and you are among those same candidates. And so bring yourself bring your best self and think about how you would be the best person to fill a particular role and how your unique experiences and skills can help fill that role. And I cannot say enough market yourself and really think about what you're bringing to the table as you're looking at fairing job postings. So in addition to all the great information and Diane did a really thorough presentation of a lot of things. I was trying to focus on just a few tips that I learned when I was in my MLIS program so I went to UCLA's and so that was largely in person and had some different things available there so I don't know if everything will be transferable, but I'm hoping that some of these tips will be. The first is as it relates to courses so Diane listed some really fantastic courses that will help you as you're pursuing a career in law librarianship. The other thing that I'd encourage you towards is taking a varied course load and thinking about classes that you are passionate about or areas that you find very, very interesting. So when I was in library school I had been in the law school for a long time, and our head of technical services, strongly encouraged me to take both descriptive and subject cataloging. So I knew that I was probably never going to be a cataloging librarian and that's true for me and my career path, but I cannot tell you how invaluable, it has been to me, time and time again that I got exposure to that level of detail when I took those classes. It really helps bring board me into some additional opportunities and professional development things that I've been able to participate in one small example is that we recently switched to an entirely new integrated library system here at UCLA, and I chaired that for the first time in my life, and it's been a great endeavor here on our campus for all 13 of our libraries. And I think, having some of that background and experience in cataloging and acquisitions through some of those classes really helped me to have a more robust view of how different aspects fit together The other example I have is relating to preservation archives. So again, I thought I knew exactly what I wanted to do. So while I was in library school I never took any classes in preservation or archives. And that's a huge part of a specialization at UCLA, but I just elected not to take any of those classes. And to be perfectly honest, I'm a little bit regretting that now because in my current position, I've sort of inherited the law school archive that's administered by the library and now I'm backpedaling trying to figure out all the other ways that I can learn about archives and preservation. Thankfully, I'm on a big campus and can take advantage of some of the other librarians here. But I just say all that to say, if you love archives or if you're really interested in oral histories or if there's some other class that you think would be really fascinating, take the class. It will just help make your portfolio more robust and it may bring some interesting things to the table to make you a more competitive candidate. So the two last things I'm going to share on this topic one is about internship and work experience. You've heard about this, but I have to say any kind of hands on work project. Anything that you're doing kind of in a real world experience that can come alongside what you're learning in your classes is going to make you a more competitive applicant. And then the last thing is about professional organizations and opportunities that you have as a student. While you're a student, there's a lot that you have available to you and available to you at a more affordable price than when you're not a student. So to the degree possible, I strongly encourage you to take advantage of those opportunities and even just reaching out to folks and networking. Librarianship is a very generous profession. And I was really privileged to work in an environment with a lot of librarians. And when I was pursuing my MLIS degree, and even while I was in the program, I can't tell you how many times I went knocking on my colleague's doors to ask questions to get guidance to get advice. And there's so much that librarians are happy, happy to share with you if you say, hey, I'm a student and I want to learn more about this or I want to hear about this. So I echo Diane's closing statement, which is if any of you ever want some guidance or discussion or have follow up questions, you're always welcome to contact me directly after this program is over. Thank you. That was amazing, Sangita and Diane. I have a couple like smaller points that I just want to add to the mix on the topic of being a competitive applicant. I would say that, you know, along the same lines as has been said before, you know, if if you, you know, the any of the advice that, you know, you just heard isn't in the cards for you, maybe it's, you know, too late to take Professor Steiner's legal resources class, then find the transferable skills and what you have done or what you, you know, have the ability to take. So maybe you took a class on library programming and services for children, you know, find the transferable skills in there. So in academic law libraries, we need people skills at planning, you know, and creating programming. You know, internships. Did you intern virtually at, you know, you know, a digital library working on digital collection management? I, you know, then you've not only gained direct experience with digital collections, all libraries have those, but you also have experience with professional remote work. And even though I think I said before that many corners of academia are still very focused on the in-person student experience, hybrid work is often available. And, you know, being a professional in a remote environment is, you know, a highly valued skill. The other small thing I wanted to add to the discussion is another, another way to look at involvement with professional organizations. So we've thrown up the word, double A double L a lot, the American Association of Law Libraries. So, you know, for instance, double A double L has a website that's a wealth of information that you can use to learn more about the profession. So in addition to everything said above about, you know, professional organizations, you know, we perform our jobs at our place of employment. But outside of that, we work together in the professional organizations to do things like contribute to the betterment of the profession. You know, so we talk about things, we work on things like how to improve our services, how to increase diversity in our ranks, how to promote social justice. And the websites of these organizations are full of information about all of that work. So that could be a source of inspiration for maybe a paper topic in your classes. It could maybe help you start thinking about how you would contribute to this work and and think about what librarians, law librarians are working on that excites you. And then you can talk about that, you know, in your cover letter to be a competitive applicant and it can show a potential employer that you're interested in engaging with and in serving the profession at large. So those are my little tips. Well, thank you, Cheryl, for your very large, important tips. There are by no means little is a very important guys. I hope you were taking notes. Okay. So I'm going to speak to this from the perspective of being an extreme extrovert. I know in a remote job, how is that happening? But I understand that not all of you are that way and taking the step out to see someone in an IRL is really scary. So I acknowledge and I honor that. That said, I enrolled in the remote program taking advantage of every single in-person opportunity that was available to me. I had the freedom of being able to take part-time positions that were open in the program. I planned my own local meetups when there were meetups that were super far away from me. I reached out to the administration and said, Hey, are there people in like San Diego area that maybe want to hang? And we met up and we had pie a couple of times. And I will say those are the people that I still keep in contact with after my program. Those are the people I reach out to for references when I don't have enough professional to fill out the whole thing. And also it was important to me to reach out to people in the particular niche. I decided I wanted to work in because those are the people that open the doors for me to eventually get that job at San Diego Law Library. I remember her name is Erin Grimes. I spoke to her on the phone. She was already working there at the time. And I asked her if I could list her as a reference. She said yes. And then I got the job. And that, no people think that networking can be nefarious and creepy. And it's honestly not, especially because what Senki to said that law librarianship is a very generous profession. I think we've all come from different backgrounds where there are people that are not quite as generous depending on who you're speaking to. And I went to a bunch of informational interviews at different law school libraries. GIA, the Gemological Institute of America is local to me. They have a really rad library. And everyone I spoke to just was overflowing with information and wanted to share and they wanted to help me. So if you're nervous, I'm going to tell you it's okay. But pretty much any person I've met in this profession has been willing to go the extra mile to help me. So that's, that's that student assistantships was huge. I got to work as a research assistant right for the I student blog. And I ended my career at the law at the I school working as a content editor at the student research journal. And now these are not things that necessarily relate directly to law librarianship, but they were very important in that that was professional experience and a master's level program that I could point to in my interviews. And when I was writing my cover letters. Internships. Yes, 100%. Also want to do a shout out to archives. I did an internship at the San Diego. Oh, they changed their name. San Diego global zoo global library and archives. So, you know where the Safari Park is, there's a library behind that. And I got to work there for a semester. And again, not directly transferable to law librarianship, but was transferable because it was a library. And it was what professional experience in a library. And I will tell you, people were very excited when they saw that on my resume. They just want to talk all about the zoo. So if you're passionate about a particular organization and they have an opportunity for you to go volunteer or do an internship, chase that, do that. And the women that work there are still mentor me to this day. So very important faculty mentors. Hello. Yes, Vicki Steiner is a huge resource for you. She will be there for you. She will stand the gap. Vicki is the reason that I am in law librarianship and I am so grateful to her. I came to her and I had pretty much given up guys. I was like, I worked in like four different law firms and it was, it was not a party. It's not anything like I expected. And I had pretty much come to get my master's degree because I was expected to be in a completely different industry. And Vicki was like, I hear you, Havala, I hear you, but this is what you should do this. And I was like, no, she's like, okay, okay, just take my class quietly. And then I came to her and I said, okay, I think I want to do this. And here we are four years later. So Vicki, thank you. Reach out to Vicki. She's a huge resource for that. Then we already talked about this peer mentors. That was a huge opportunity for me because I got to teach at a master's level for adult education in my master's program. So transferable skills, all that. And those are all the tips I have for being a competitive applicant. Do we have anything else before we move on to the next topic? You're way too kind, Havala. You are. I don't disagree. All right. Next topic. Yes. I think the next topic is conducting a successful job interview. I'll start, but because I happen to know that my fellow panelists are going to give you lots of amazing advice. I'm going to limit my comments here to just one aspect of the job interview. And that's the presentation. You know, you get up in front of the group and you present on a topic during your interview. And it may not be a part of everyone's interview, but for an academic librarian position, you may be told that you have to do a presentation. Teaching positions, especially will often require you to give a teaching demonstration during your interview, you know, pretend that the librarians gather their students and teach them something. But some non teaching positions also require a presentation addressing a prompt and your thoughts, you know, on an aspect of the job, for instance. The search committee might pick the topic for you and they'll be looking at your interpretation of the topic at your insight. Any innovative approach you might take to it. Or you might be asked to choose the topic yourself and you can either take a subject that's familiar to you, of course. Or you might consider doing some research, like on, you know, the mission of the institution where you're interviewing and make sure that you're tailoring that topic. To one that matches the focus of the institution versus one that has nothing to do with the place of your interviewing. But I think to wrap up my thoughts on that, perhaps the most important thing you can show via your presentation if you're asked to do one is how prepared you can be when you have time to put your best foot forward. So that's the bottom line, I think make good choices in preparation and approach your presentation with seriousness. All right. How are you? It's me again, guys. I'll be quick. I promise. Interviews. Terrifying. Okay. We'll just acknowledge that. It can be very intimidating. So what do we do? We prepare. We come up with practice questions. We practice with our dog. We practice with our mom. We practice with our best friend. And let them ask you random questions. It's okay. It'll get you out of this like mindset. And I would say also you always come with a list of questions specific to what Cheryl was talking about the mission of the institution, the company culture, pretty much things that you would actually want to know about the company that you would perhaps go work for. And that also impresses the interviewer because it shows that you are prepared. So practice, bring questions to ask your interviewer specific to their background specific to the company. Bring extra copies of your resume, print it out. There's a thing called paper. I don't know if anyone uses it anymore, but take it with you. Hand it to everyone you speak to. So here's, here's my resume guys. Or if you don't want to be that aggressive, you don't have to, but just bring it with you to be prepared. And lastly, going back to the paper thing, write a handwritten thank you note and mail it to that person. No one ever does this anymore. And they'll just be like, you don't have to bake them cookies because that would be too aggressive, but handwritten thank you note. And remember, if it was a virtual interview, same concept, do it via email. Those are my tidbits guys. I think thank you to. Yep. So, Cheryl and hoveless gave you a lot of really fantastic advice. So I just was trying to think of a couple of other suggestions and things that I would urge you to consider. The first is, I think practice questions is an excellent idea, because the better you get at articulating your skills and where you've come from and what you've done and things like that, the better. The other thing I urge you to consider are very specific and varied examples that demonstrate those skills. Right. So you can say I'm really analytical or I'm a fantastic researcher or whatever. But then if you have an actual project and here's how I used those skills. And this is what I did with it. And if you can showcase or demonstrate how you can use those skills. That gives you a competitive edge in the interview. So it's not just words coming out of your mouth, but you actually have something to show for it. It doesn't have to be in the workplace if it is that's great if it's in an internship or volunteer experience that's great, but it could also be a project that you did for a class. Mentoring an MLIS student at UCLA right now. And one of her class assignments is to build a virtual escape room game and, you know, different things like that. Like that stuff that she's working on that is actual tangible work product that could be used as an example to demonstrate your skill. So just be thinking about those things and think about a variety of them as you're preparing for your interview. Another thing I urge you to think about is why are you applying for this job. Whenever we're interviewing candidates I always ask that question and it's always very telling if someone didn't think about that answer. Right, you are a valuable resource that's coming to a job interview. You bring something to the table but then that place and that position should also be working to your benefit for your career goals and your professional aspirations. Think about why you want to do this. How does this fit into to your career, what inspired you to apply for this job. And if you don't know think about that before you get into the interview because someone's going to ask you that question. And this is just a repeat but again research where you're applying figure out who works there what's the original organizational structure who reports to home. How does the library fit within the larger institution. So at my library for example, the law library fits within the law school, but the law library and the law school also fits in within a larger campus of UCLA also fits in within a larger institution which is the entire UC. That's not always going to be the place but if you're in a firm library, how many locations does that firm have, who all do they serve, what kind of users are you going to have. All of these, this type of research is going to show your engagement with the job, and that comes across in an interview, you all of a sudden are not just an applicant on a piece of paper, but you're a human that's coming to the table and cares and wants this job. The last thing that I'm going to say is going to sound cliche again I say it to everyone who interviews, and it's really true. When you are going to an interview, make sure you're coming with it questions, not just about the place and not just about the job, but about the environment and the workplace because as much as they are interviewing you, you ought to be interviewing them. Opportunities will come and go opportunities will come and go, but having colleagues and an environment and a culture where you will thrive professionally is invaluable and no price can be put on that. So, go into your interviews thinking about that is this a place where I fit in. Is this a place where my personality is going to thrive. Is this going to be a place where I can professionally grow and will be a stepping stone in my career, or a place where I might go and retire. In any of those instances, always be thinking about how that place fits with you, because again that's going to come across in your interview process as you're serious about this place you're serious about this job, and you're thinking about what's going to be the best fit for them. Okay, that's all. Anything else before we move to scholarships. One thing I really quickly wish is just to make sure that you understand what the interview is going to be like. You may go somewhere where you're going to meet with three or four different people that'll come into the room separately and talk to you. Or you could be, you know, and it'll go over a couple of hours, or you could be, you know, in front of, you know, six people at once for half an hour. Right, so you really have to understand that and that may help you tailor what you are going to do or I'm going to do or what you're going to say and how you say it in your timing. That's just something to make sure you understand before you get in the door there too. Absolutely. So one last thing just on that topic. If you were presented with an agenda of what your interview schedule is going to look like. Figure out who the people are that you're meeting websites have directories, figure out what they do and understand who you're talking to. And that will also be really helpful in tailoring your answers to different groups. Definitely. Thank you, Sangita. Okay. So I'm going to talk to you guys about scholarships because as we know, master's degrees are expensive. It's a truth universally acknowledged. It's very expensive. So I have applied when I was a student, I applied to the SJSU iSchool Scholarship Opportunities. I think I did a Prezi presentation for one of them. It was not successful in that, but I knew a lot of people that were. So that's a no brainer opportunity for you. That's a scholarship money that your school is offering if you can take a couple of hours to put together a deliverable for that. It's definitely worth your time and it hones your skills and is a work product school products you can point to on your resume if the topic fits what you're applying for. The American Association of Law Libraries local chapters also has scholarship opportunities. I applied for Skals scholarship opportunity when I was a student in 2018, and I was successful. And I know other people that were successful too. And the evaluatory information is really just talking about what you're passionate about what you're hopeful to achieve in your program and looking at your academic standing. Take a few hours, write out that application. And the deadline for Skals scholarship is coming up on Monday, March 27. Thank you to the kind librarian who put these notes in for me. I really, really appreciate you. And we can also, I think Vicki is sending out a list of links after so that link will be in there, but it's SCAL, Southern California Association of Law Libraries that is coming up. And then, so you must live in Southern California or be enrolled in a graduate student. And one of the programs. And I think that no Cal also has a similar program as well. So that's SCAL, but then no Cal, so N O C A L L. So you're into law librarianship and you want to apply for scholarship stuff at SJSU high school. Definitely. And then scholarship opportunities as part of the local chapters. And I think people have asked me, Oh, I don't want to apply for that because I'm not a member. I was not a member of SCAL when I was awarded the scholarship opportunity. So you don't have to stay in the ear student, and then you don't have time to be active in their chapter but what they're hoping to do is create that pipeline of law librarianship professionals and further your education, further your professional career. And that's what those scholarships are for anything else on scholarships. And at the end there, I will be providing a link to all of the resources that we've been discussing today so once I send out the recording link for today's session there'll be also a link to the all of the handouts and information about scholarship opportunities, and so forth. And I also want to encourage everybody also to make a use of our Q&A room and so we're queuing up questions for the end. So if you have questions, don't be shy about hosting those and we'll get to them at the end. So I'm up next dealing with strategies for effective networking. And I first want to add that Havilah is totally correct about applying for these scholarships during my time as a student at SJSU or received a $1,500 scholarship from SCAL on a $3,500 scholarship from AAOL and that paid for the majority of my degree at San Jose State. So strategies for effective networking so first off you need to understand that it points in my life until I really started blossoming in my career. I was painfully shy and still room introvert so it's kind of an odd topic for me to be speaking about networking, but I've actually come to very much enjoy it in my career and enjoy the people I've met along the way, and we share resources with one another. You know, first I'll talk about online conferences and meetings and just quite simply ask questions. This helps people to know you and to know your interests and people are more interested in you than you would think. Many people have jobs that are open and we're looking to find someone to fill that job so we're paying attention to new and interesting students who appear in these different meetings and conferences. So also be active in breakout rooms, get to know the other participants if there are opportunities. One thing I've taken to do at work to network myself across campus is to follow up and send an email after the meeting to someone who'd said something really interesting to me to the group rather. One other thing just to underscore for the 50th time today, librarians are helpers, they are nurturers. If you reach out to any librarian by email chances are you'll get an email back and they'll be willing to meet with you so just or to speak with you by phone about the career and what they do so just make sure that you you're just aware that that's not an unusual request or ask I received several requests a year and I'm always happy to speak with people. If you can attend an in person conference and I'll put a plug in for the Scout Institute on the bottom, bottom right corner, we're having an Institute next week $60 for students, if you can attend, but in person conferences are great. Conversations are very easy at com at in person conferences, you already have something to talk about you have things in common by just sitting in that room together and staying at the same hotel and hearing these sessions. You know, there are many, many people to speak to at these conferences, you can also volunteer to staff things like the registration desk at a conference. I'm sitting there registering people I'm learning people's names I'm having making small talk about what institutions where they work at, and I'm finding out things about them and they're finding out things about me. So that's always an easy ask, and you can do that at double a double L and you can also you also used to be able to do that at scow. Sit to if you're in person sit down next to someone you don't know and introduce yourself, as I said, most librarians want to meet students and they may even have a job opening and I'll just say this to you. One time at a conference, I was asked by someone to put a placement book out and I said to them, Well, would you mind if I just announced you know I was a conference chair. I just announced to someone that you're a job secret this conference and they said short thing, and I can tell you by the end of that conference two days later they had a job from someone in the audience. So this is just really powerful. A network that we can all share with one another, and help one another get jobs. So, as far as social media goes linked in is probably well set up for networking for you indeed can also be helpful in your job search. And I'll also say to you, you're already creating your professional networks right here at SJSU and if you're in Vicki Steiner's class. I, I won't even tell you how long ago it was, but I took the equivalent class sitting in a room at Cal State Fullerton and in person classes in five of those people in that room and ended up being professional law librarians who are still on the law library community, and are still I can ask for favors and questions on a day to day basis so realize you've already started building your network and I cannot. I cannot encourage you more to get involved. Volunteer to work on a committee, a ll s is or chapter I think that Senkita and I met one another working on scowls intro high school internship committee maybe five or six years ago, and I really treasure my friendship with Senkita, and we try to help one other as best as we can with work things. Holly, did you have anything to add here. Or I will be somewhat quick I know we have other things to get through but of course I will you know reiterate what everyone said about double a double l is a former double a double l president is not necessarily my duty but it's my love of double a double l to say to you know please I'm not getting involved and it's one of the best things I ever did joining committees and starting to get to meet people. The other thing I will also put in the chat, the link to the no Cal spring Institute which is coming up in March. There is also a student rate I don't know the, I don't have the amount off the top of my head, and no Cal also allows for students to apply for grants to attend things so you know be aware of that or contact someone that's a great opportunity as well. What I also add is expand outside of law librarianship, especially on the law firm side, Ilta which is the international legal technology association. Their membership is different it's not by person it's by organization so if you are working in a firm for example as a reference even as you know reference librarian or whatever your title is. If your firm is a member of Ilta you can be a member and then you can access their educational opportunities and materials and information and there's quite a wealth of things there and could be really helpful so you know kind of think outside the box a little bit there too at times and then I would just reiterate you know kind of the informational interview or those you know cold call or cold email to a to a library and you know I've I've gotten those same kind of calls and I think everybody really enjoys that and it's a great community so never you know never feel you know intimidated or worried about doing something like that I think everybody always wants to help and share. Okay, so next we're going to move on to continuing education and mentoring opportunities. So I'll just tell you right now continuing education. It's abundant. There's so much online content in addition to the restarting of things in person. You just need to know where to look. And so I'm going to take you through some organizations and how your memberships can benefit you there. The double A double L has a student membership $70. They offer so many free or low cost continuing education opportunities such as coffee chats webinars. They also have a library of annual meeting programs we meet once a year in person several years worth of recorded programs on many, many professional development topics that you can access for free with your membership. They also have a new self-paced legal research course that just opened up recently. I think it's 49 it would be $49 for students with double A double L membership. Double A double L special interest sections. So those are grouped by library types like I am a member of the academic law libraries sis there's also a government law libraries sis and a private law librarians sis those for library types and also for special interests like if you were interested in legal history and rare books. There's a group for that. So those all cost $20 a year they offer spent more specialized free and low cost webinars and virtual roundtables. One thing I do wish to kind of call out to you is you know I'm an academic law librarian, but I go to the private law librarians summit, because I think there are sometimes a year or two ahead of the of the academics and I always learn something. I typically held the Saturday before AOL AOL has also has these things called chapters we've been we've been given a lot of acronyms and scouts Southern California Association of Law Libers that these geographic chapters and it's $6 to join scouts. And so just be aware of that. West we haven't talked about Westpac Western Pacific chapter of AOL I was just on a call earlier today, they will have their annual meeting in September or October in San Diego this year so something else to watch for for an in person opportunity. I think in ALA also have continuing education programs. Other places to find continuing education on discussed on listservs you might want to remain on your information science schools listserv as well county law libraries have programs for practicing attorneys and they're typically free and you can join as well. And also sometimes you can see things from the Library of Congress Law Library of Congress as well. Interesting places but there's just a bountiful feast of so many different continuing education opportunities Holly did you have something to add here. I think you have covered it. Okay, I try. I'm trying to go. I'm trying to just whack these things out. The topic I want to talk to is near and dear to my heart and it's about mentorship and literally the job I'm in is not a job I imagine for myself. It is a job that was pointed out to me by my mentor is something that I might be meant for. And so I've had numerous mentors over the course of my career five or six of them, some long term some short but I've gained a lot from them. And so what are some of the types of things that they have shared with me. So career planning advice, particularly when you're thinking of moving up into administration, or switching, you know, into other types of careers or switching institutions mentors can be extremely helpful. They can also point out to professional development opportunities. One of the people I mentor, I pointed out about the Scala Institute and said hey you can get a grant, and the person was successful with that. You need to have mentors, not just at the early stage of your career but also at critical junctures and mid career as well someone can help you reassess what opportunities might be there for you. My mentor helped me acquire certain skills that I wanted in that were necessary to progress such as budgeting this person sat down with me taught me how to budget maybe 15 years ago it's just been invaluable. It can be good sources for suggestions advice information and you know one point I thought I might move and my mentor set me up with someone in their network in another city to speak to about jobs and relocating there so just know that that's that's those are the types of information you can get from your mentors. Oftentimes, I think of my mentors as being absolute cheerleaders for me personally. It's a generally positive thing I never thought really much about mentoring until mentoring and my mentors found me. But I think teachers coach advisors guide and on this friend are accurate descriptions of mentors and as I said mentors can be help you just a critical moments in your career when you're deciding to deciding to move on to another position. Stay stay or go. They can just be really awesome. They're also great job references to and I'll just say that to you. Characteristics of good mentors mentors in my opinion you know I really want somebody who gives me very very good advice. Sound and directed advice. You know they're also selfless many times they've reached a point in their career where they're willing to extend their hand out to help others. And that can be very useful for you as a mentee and they're self confident. They've achieved what they wanted to and they're just kind of feeling like they want to pay it forward. Finding a mentor. So in terms of finding mentors. There are formal and informal pathways to finding mentors within the National Association. They have a mentoring program where you can be assigned to someone I've gone through that I've been both a mentee and a mentor in that it's just a very valuable experience. Also double A double L has a leadership academy and they assign mid career mentors to people I found that to be extremely helpful. I had a mentor for example when I was in law school and that person was a sitting experienced library director who helped talk to me about next stages in my career. Chapters also have mentoring opportunities as well. And also SLA has mentoring opportunities informal mentoring opportunities. You just kind of have to be aware of them at USC there's a group of people who do coaching and they will offer you five career coaching sessions for free. There's a group at USC called women in management there's a career development group that meets once a month and people discuss discuss moving along with their careers. I think we've had people talk about informational interviews several times as I mentioned that's just really great I'm not going to turn down someone who wants to speak with me and answer their questions. And lastly you want to reach out to people via LinkedIn and social media you can find mentors that way. You also find mentors through volunteering. Particularly for the National Association that's how I've met a lot of people who ended up being my mentors. And just in closing before I hand off to Holly for her comments I just want to say you'll probably have several mentors during your career. Probably if I sat down to try and think about it today I probably had about 10 mentors, some of them for just a couple years. But sometimes, you know, even if you haven't talked to someone in five or 10 years, they're so willing to help you still. And that's just typical for our for our profession. Reach out. I would encourage you to reach out to someone who you admire and to see if they're willing to offer you guidance that can be really important to you. And I've said, as I've said and others have said librarians are nurturers and helpers, and really just don't even hesitate or think about it before you reach out to someone and to seek their, their advice. Holly. Great. Thank you. I don't have too much to add the only things I would sort of expand on is I don't know where I got this from but many years ago I kind of grabbed on to this concept of having a professional board of directors. And essentially, you know, you can curate this throughout your career. Again, of these kind of mentors or people that you can turn to, and making sure that it's, you know, it can be very diverse. I mean, you may start out focusing on law librarians or people that are helping you at the early part of your career later on you might find someone who really isn't even a law librarian but it's really good at management or administration or public speaking or things like that. So, you know, kind of get these people as you go through your career and have them to turn to. And so that's sort of a concept that I've really grasped and used throughout my career. The other thing is, I mean, you know, I have gotten more out of mentees that I've had, you know, in those relationships, it goes both ways, right. You know, I went to library school a long time ago I'm old. So, I learned a lot from people and so it's, it's a great opportunity so we know both both parties usually get a lot out of it if it's kind of a good match and you get along but that's all I would add there so I want to keep it short because I know where we have may have questions and I want to make sure there's time for everything else everybody wants to talk about. And thank you everybody and we do have some questions queued up I did also open the chat so if you can feel free to type your questions in the chat window or in the Q&A section. So I'm going to go through these and if our speakers would like to tackle the questions. So the first one we have here is why don't most academic law libraries include the salary range on their job postings lack of salary transparency contributes to racial and gender pay gaps and also waste the time of job seekers. So in the state of California where we are located we are now required to do that as of January 1 and for the reasons that Reno illuminated, I totally agree and I'm happy to do so and I think that'll help job seekers better understand if they're a fit for us. The cost of living is high in California and I'll let someone know if our salary allows them to have the standard of living that they expect. I think, you know, I can't answer the why but if you are interviewing in a state that's not California that doesn't have this transparency law. And you find, you know that you come across an opportunity that doesn't list the salary I would say, you know, don't be afraid to ask for the range. And because interviewing candidates takes a lot of resources on the institution's end and we also don't want to be wasting our time or a candidate's time when you know the salary range is not a match so don't be shy about asking for a range if it's not posted. And I just thought about it is I believe I Holly could answer this but double A double L publishes a salary survey, and I believe that in California it goes down to Southern California and it goes down and it's so it has been in some years so specific to include la versus Orange County so my thought also is that someone could can look at historical trends there through the double A double L salary survey is it every three years or every two Holly. I think it's every two and sometimes it sometimes it can't go as low because it depends on how many how many right responses they get but it's a great I mean it's a great resource right if you're if you have anything if you have a lack of information it's a really good place to get. Yeah, and when I was when I was negotiating my own salary for this position I used it so I just encourage everyone to use that. Excellent. Okay, and then our next question in queue was, if you want to pursue a JD. Does it matter which law school you attend. I can jump in on law school choice I mean I think the, the, the short answer is law school is such a personal decision it's such a big investment of time and money and such a personal decision I mean some, some people focus on the ranking of a law school and there's just been so much this year especially discussed about the rankings but I would say you know if you're going to invest in law school your time your effort your money. Make the right personal choice for you. In terms of you know having a competitive advantage in a law librarianship application, you know I don't see one law school, having an advantage over another. So, law school is what you make of it and so find a place that is going to be something you can make the best of for for you in your particular situation. There are so many factors that go into law school choice. I maintained a full time job while I went to law school at night to the only. There are two choices for me in LA, Loyola and Southwestern I applied to one law school, and that was Loyola I had no problem. And that wasn't a consideration or wouldn't be a deterrent for being placed here at USC which is a top 20 institution, even though my law degree is from a much lower ranked institution that just, you know for in my hiring of librarians that's, not a big factor. There are many other factors I would I would consider before that. Okay, next question is what advice would the librarians with JD's gift to a current law student working in a law library about resume building and networking. I thought you were going to jump in Diana you were nodding your head. I'll speak after you. Okay. So, you know, so so much of, you know, what was said in this roundtable today is directly applicable. I think to that question. But in addition, you know, I would say that it's also a very personal thing you know your resume is unlike any other resume and so if you have, you know, again, mentors have them look at your resume see how you know the things that you have on it that are related to a career and in law librarianship. Yeah, I don't know, what are your thoughts. It's funny because I have one of our one else coming and talking to me next week about law librarianship. And, you know, she has spoken with me about becoming our research assistant this summer in the law library so she wants to gain some experience. It's often something that happens. You know, I think getting to know librarians that often can also be an inspiration for a JD student becoming a librarian. I think just strong research skills, wherever you end up in your job experience and you know if you can try and get some experience working in the law library as a research assistant or faculty member as a research assistant I think that would help. And the chat's open to I know that we have a few people in attendance who are working in different capacities in the library so if you want to weigh in the chat also feel free to do so. See our next question here with chat questions in the Q&A and in the chat, but I'll go in order of time. What is your typical day week like for your position. I imagine the general job is reference librarianship for lawyers, but I could be wrong. Who are your users what kind of questions do you typically get, and I'm trying to understand the day to day environment. I can jump in here quickly and tell you that it depends and it varies quite a bit. In the fall semester we were teaching all the reference librarians here. We're teaching legal research to 1L students. So for the fall semester the orientation was definitely on teaching, grading, preparing for the next week's class. I also have been involved with doing a couple of workshops for USC undergraduates who are interested in legal writing. So those come up once or twice a semester. But the users are generally not lawyers looking for reference help. It's more either students who are looking for reference help or research help where we have students who are now getting jobs working in law firms and have some questions about the best way to pursue a legal research issue. Here from 9 to 5 minute of Friday there's always a reference librarian assigned to reference. So you can people call students and faculty can come to the reference counter, or we get emails from USC undergrads USC law students and from faculty members. So the kind of experience varies with the time of year. If you're working in a public law library. The questions you're going to get where you're going to need to assist somebody with legal research or more likely there be members of the public who are trying to figure out their own legal problem as opposed to lawyers coming in and asking for assistance with a research issue. We get some of those here with people calling in but also in a public library you're really going to get a lot of members of the public who for instance are having questions about a landlord tenant issue. They've received an eviction notice and they want help with how they can respond to that. While you can't give out legal advice what you want to be able to do is point them in the direction of the resources that will help with their problems. And I mentioned earlier doing live guides. This is one of the areas where live guides can really help in Vicki's legal research class I did a live guide on the rent controls for all the cities and throughout the county of Los Angeles. So you have those kind of, excuse me resources available for members of the public where they can go to one source and hopefully find all the information they need to find about that topic. So I guess the long answer to a short question was it varies day to day. I just want to jump in quickly and just say, it also depends on your work working environment right so I'm also in an academic law library though my position isn't reference I know the reference librarians at UCLA do not teach first year law students and legal research and that is not handled by the librarians and so the day to day work for UCLA law librarian would be a little bit different maybe in the first semester than the day to day work at a USC. Law librarian, we do a lot of drop in sessions for law school classes. We do a lot of workshops. We have a reference desk. We do some interesting sort of outreach to students in their spaces we do these quick short lessons to try and gauge with students. And then we do a lot of faculty research and faculty services assistance. So when you're looking at particular types of academic law libraries, you may also want to dig into what do those librarians do because it may vary from place to place. The other thing is, I think this is one of the fun aspects of the profession is that you don't necessarily well you all can correct me if your experiences is different, but my experiences, most two days don't look the same. Right, and you're moving from thing to thing, and you have opportunities for professional development and professional engagement, and it's very exciting. So sometimes you have a little bit of latitude in determining what your day to day looks like, which is also an exciting aspect of the profession. And I can sort of jump in a little bit from the court and government side briefly. So our library is not open to the public. We just serve our judiciary and our folks in our building but a lot of court libraries serve both they serve their judiciary and they're also their public law library. So that's a very kind of interesting mix that that comes up. The other thing I will say just about court research again this is, you know, speaking from our experience but, you know, things come up in front of, you know, a Supreme Court that are, you know, many years old and so collections or, you know, have a lot of superseded materials and a majority of the research we do is legislative history and, you know, intent and looking at that kind of thing. So, you know, a little bit of a different take and, you know, some of the things I used to focus on in the law firm that wasn't, you know, I did that but that wasn't, you know, the bread and butter so just to share a little bit from the court and government side to give you a flavor of what happens but I would agree no two days are the same and everything, you know, it's always a really interesting challenge. Public did you want to say, since your perspective is a little bit different working for the law firm. I agree with Jocelyn in the chat. I work primarily with legal professionals. So my library like Holly's is not open to the public. We don't even call it a library. We are research services within the larger knowledge management department within the global firm. So we have a desk that's fully staffed 24 hours a day because we have people in Belfast across the globe that also take these tickets. So I came from this position, being at a public library being on the reference desk. So it's very much like a polar opposite type of work environment where working in the public library was very exciting, stressful, exciting. There were no two days with the same lots professional development opportunities, lots of engagement, whereas I would say my work as a firm librarian now is very wrote 50% of it is a lot of business development. So we are developing work products about companies where they're trying to bring those companies in as clients. And then I would say the other 50% is like hard and fast case law legal research. And that can be really fun because you're like puzzling out what exactly the attorney needs but also you send them a list of like 15 cases and it's on them to figure out exactly what they want. So I was able to come into that position without as much substantive legal background as some of my other colleagues who have JD's and are able to teach those substantive law classes. Whereas I know enough to like to be dangerous. Right. I'm like, oh, I can pick like, oh, here's something you're citing to let's see what other cases cite to this and oh, here's another key keyword we can bring in. It's like speaking a different language across like 45 different databases. So I would say because of my position being remote your tech skills are very, very important because you're having to draw from all these different places, putting it in like a nice little package for the attorney wrapping it up. So here you go. And then nine times out of 10 they're like, cool, go on their merry way. But the 10th time they're like, this is not what I asked for. And they're like, oh, okay, well tell me what you need. And then you do follow up research for them. And my department is growing, expanding and there is going to be more opportunity eventually to build out our page on the internet to train but those special projects are just not fully there yet. So I am anticipating that I'll be able to do some of the really cool special project D type things that I got to do in the public library setting, but it's my eighth month, the firm. And that just hasn't been the case yet. So that's where it's a little bit different. All right. What advice do you have for current library students interested in law librarianship that don't want to pursue a JD. I can take a stab at that. Some of it depends, I think, on where you are in your program and what your interests are. So if you're very early on in the program and still have quite a ways to go. I want to talk with some law libraries that are local to you and see what opportunities there might be. You may want to look at some job descriptions at many of the sites that kind of were mentioned and that's on the links list and see what job requirements are, and see what might fit your personality. Traditionally, if you're looking in academic law librarianship. Additionally, the jobs have been in access services. That's what my job is. And then also technical services like acquisitions and cataloging often will not require a JD as a component for the application. As Cheryl mentioned early on in this roundtable that trend is changing. So if your passion is reference and research, and you really want to work in academia, there's probably going to be a fit for you and pursue the courses that are going to help you engage with that. If your passion is for reference and research and you love attorneys, then there's already a robust place where you can look for jobs in the firm environment. I'm quite sure I don't know if anybody else can talk about the perspective of what's required in a public environment, but I think it's definitely doable. This is something that I explored a lot because I was not interested in going to law school but librarianship is what I was made for. So, there's definitely a place for you. So it's just a matter of finding the right fit for you and your particular interests. And what I would say, working on a public law library desk and in a firm is you are essentially a generalist. Now, my law firm specializes in labor and employment law but we get questions across the gamut just the majority of them are in that particular area. So it is helpful to be able to draw from personal experience, draw from reference interactions, draw from your own ability to craft a search. If you're speaking in the law firm environment, which is basically what you're doing, you're taking a question and then translating it into a keyword search string. Now, hopefully with AI that's going to continue to change and we can do more natural searching and training in that. But I would say that's the difference there. And I didn't, I was able to draw from my paralegal classes. I went to University of San Diego, California extension for my paralegal classes really fast. I did it in like 12 weeks and then just working in law firms as a legal assistant as paralegal drawing from those experiences also really benefited me when I was applying for positions in the job market. What advice do you have for a current 3L who doesn't have any experience in a law library straight to MLIS or is it more advantageous to practice? I can just throw in there I realized that my, this is somewhat my background speaking here, but I think having practiced law for a few years is a fantastic experience to take into law librarianship, particularly if you are dealing with teaching legal research. I think understanding how the research is going to be used and what your managing attorney is looking for when they give you a research assignment, etc. What the courts are looking for if you're doing litigation. So I do think having some experience practicing law is helpful in the long run when you're going to be pursuing librarianship, but that's again, my background talking here. I think also if you're, whether you're in your third year or your first or your second year of law school, there are opportunities may vary depending on where you're going to school, but there are faculty research assistant opportunities. So that's a great way. You know, you're getting your legal research experience in your law school courses, but working with a faculty member doing more in depth projects for scholarship can be a great way to kind of tip your toe in the water to test the waters. If research is your, is your interest, and also just getting a feel for working within the library because you'll spend a lot of time with librarians on doing your work. Okay, and let's see here, we have some other questions in the chat. I just want to make sure I don't miss anybody. Do you have any advice for applying to out of state jobs you are passionate about. If you are a hiring manager would you honestly consider an out of state candidate. I know you, you typed in answer Diane but it's just if others want to weigh in so you can not miss the answer. I would just say definitely I would hire someone from out of state. I look at you know hiring a librarian as you know, building the team here and there are certain things I'm looking for to compliment who I already have here and certain skills and job sets. So it definitely if I found that with someone out of state, we would pay for moving expenses. The same is true at UCLA, we're looking for the best fit for our environment and where the person is coming from doesn't often matter. But that being said, I would encourage you when you're applying or you're in the interview process. I was mentioning why you want to relocate why you want to go someplace else. And it's also worth letting the employer know that you've considered the move. Like one of the challenges that we have hiring in California is the cost of living here is so much higher than in other states around the country. And so if you are coming from outside of California to California. If you have some experience with what it's like to live here if you have some experience with traffic if you have some experience or that cost of living and can communicate that that will actually go along with the state to helping the employer know that you've like seriously considered some of the challenges and issues. And that goes both ways right if you're leaving California going someplace else what's taking you there why do you want to go there. I agree with Senita. This is really where your cover letter comes into play and you need to present yourself in the best light and that includes explaining why you're moving into the area and having concrete reasons. This is also a great opportunity to work those networking skills and get in contact with the local association geographically. See if you can have an informational interview with someone who's connected to the organization just so that they can put a face with the name and they know you all of a sudden so before you are an unknown entity but if you can make that connection then you are a known entity and you're much more likely to make it to the top of the pile even if there are more people who are geographically desirable than you. So I would say those are two ways to combat the question here. I'm wondering if folks are willing to speak more about references for resume CV. Since I tend to only think of bosses and professors but panelists mentioned mentors. I think references are extremely important to you and my boss always had a rule that we needed to notify her before we were going to list her as a reference and I still to this day think that that is extraordinarily important because I had a job search and I called the person's reference and the person was unwilling to give a reference about that person. So you need to make certain that the people you list are willing to speak for you. I think that's also part of marketing yourself. I would just say that. So far as listing a mentor on a reference I have done a lot of professionally professional work on committees with people outside of my own library and they have become mentors to me and they have held various different positions throughout the US some not even in academia and so I have done work for them in terms of leadership and they've been they've watched that throughout the year so they've been able to throughout my time on their committee. So they have been able to give references about leadership about my personal qualities about the fact that I'm extremely diligent. I do what I say I communicate well. I am a good steward and work well with others. And so those are the types of mentors I've included those who I've worked for with projects. I just wanted to interject here for a second and I think this also goes back to being an outstanding candidate for a job position is when I started sending out resumes and cover letters to various law libraries and law libraries, excuse me, libraries and law libraries. I made sure I had my references lined up. Most job postings were upfront that you were going to need. I think it was generally three references. I contacted Professor Steiner since we'd had a relationship from working together and legal research and she was my supervisor as a peer mentor. I asked my current colleague my supervisor at the firm that I was working at he knew I was graduating would be looking for a job. If he would serve as a reference for me, and I contacted another attorney that I'd worked with previously for a number of years, and confirm that he would also act as a reference for me. So I wanted to make sure that they were all aware that I was interviewing, and that I would hopefully be looking to them for a reference if it got that far along where I was potentially going to get a job offer. So when you're out there and interviewing and looking for a job, get your references lined up beforehand, because you don't want to be in a position where someone's interested in you. And now you've got to scramble to find people who will give you a reference and to contact them and let them know. So it's definitely something that you want to get kind of lined up in advance if you can. Yeah, and I'll just add I mean again to sort of think outside the box one of the people that I have used as a reference for many years, because again as I've served as double a double a president I use the person who is the executive director at the time for our association because we work together really closely and while you know different work than what I would do in a job, the leadership and other types of skills that would obviously come into play so, but I agree and I need to let people know give them the job description help them as much as you can to understand kind of how they can, you know, help you, you know and work together but but that's something to think about too. And I just want to add something quickly, Holly is completely on point. When I agree to serve as a reference for someone I asked them for a CV, I asked them for a personal statement, there are unique things about students I've had in my in my class for six months that I may not know about until I received the their personal statement so it's really really helpful to help your reference help you. I was going to add that as well, because it helps us write a more compelling recommendation for you to help you get that job so more information provide us the better reference we can provide. So one other thing that I was going to comment about references is think about having a variety of people be your reference, who can speak to different aspects of your skills or different experiences that you might bring. And those are going to ask for probably three references, and you may want those three references to be different people for one job than another. And then as far as listening your mentors, I think other people touched on this but just to be really explicit, anybody who's your mentor you have some connection with them. Right. It may not be a direct report like some of my mentors are just other librarians that I work with, but that are bringing a unique perspective to the table. And a lot of them are people I've worked with committees on and whatever, but you always have a connection with that mentor. So anyone that you have that professional connection with is someone that can speak towards your skills. So I think that's what we mean when we're talking about having mentors as your references. Also when Diana was talking about mentors who's talking about these are people that are your advocates. They're your cheerleaders, they're the people that think you're fantastic. And that's who you want representing you when you're looking for a job. Any other questions. Thank you so much for the questions and our fantastic panelists. I appreciate you all for being here and sharing your wisdom. And I'll just leave one more second for any questions before we wrap up for the evening. And again, I will be sharing a recording link to this presentation. Just take a while for us to process it. But everybody who has registered will get a recording link and that handout link. So thank you everybody. Thanks. Bye bye. Bye everyone.