 Welcome to Pookey Ponders, a podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookey Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, what do recycled flower bottle sculptures have to do with wellbeing? And I'm in conversation with Cat Horne. I'm Cat and I live and work in Wharf and Forest. What do I call myself? Lots of different things. I'm a fully qualified teacher, which I absolutely love. My teaching is my passion, but I was very lucky a few years ago to be working in the Barra of Neum, the lovely Barra of Neum in some of the probably the toughest schools you can imagine. They're really quite challenging. And then one day this lovely company called Emergency Exit Arts came in to the school to deliver a lantern-making workshop. And I sat there and went, yes, this is what I want to do. So I had that spark of like, yep, and so that's what I do. I don't make lanterns, but I sometimes do, but I'm basically a creative practitioner. I work, I have a business called Arts Generation, and I deliver hundreds of different projects, bespoke projects into different schools. So that's me, basically, Cat Horne. That was a very excellent introduction and I have so many different questions already. So the kind of the question that the episode title is about what do recycled flower bottle sculptures have to do with well-being? And I'm trying to go back in time to think this sounds like quite a specific question, but I think it's because the person who recommended I speak to you, Anne Musgrove, is the head at Sutton High Prep School. And I believe this is a project you do with the children there. So perhaps you can start with telling us about that. Yeah. Well, I have a little example, which always helps. Wow. You're going to have to describe it for those who are listening. Absolutely. So I have this bottle in front of me, and it's always used as a mix of bottle or water bottle, and it's been recycled to make beautiful plastic bottle sculptures. And what we do is the pupils involved, and I've done this in quite a few schools now, and it's sort of escalated, and the ones that we do at Sutton School have evolved into more this sort of example, which is where they've made flowers, and so they've cut sections of the bottles, they've painted them first, they've cut them. And what's lovely is it's sort of thing that could take five minutes, but when you do it with a year five class, which is generally the year group I work with at Sutton High, is for this particular project, is it such an amazingly calming and purposeful activity? Because what you get is the pupils, in this case, the girls collect after they've used the bottles, they bring them in, this massive stack of bottles in the art room, and then we sort them, and we really sort of go to town on analysing this humble bottle. And I give them inspiration by looking at the work of Dale Chihuly, who's a glass artist, and a lot of them are lucky enough to have been to the V&A Museum, and in the Rotunda entrance there, this is an amazing spiral, beautiful, stunning glass sculpture. So that's our sort of inspiration. We talk about that, we look at lots of other of his works, including some that were in Q-Gardens, Hamilton Court, places like that. And we look at those stunning range of shapes and patterns within those sculptures. And then we look at sort of eco artists and people like Sarah Turner, who makes beautiful sort of elephants and things, she's amazing. And then we think about what we can create and we create, like I said, for some of the workshops we've done in the past with other year groups, we've created chandeliers which hang in their halls, so they're basically painting and cutting spirals. And for this project, as you can see, those of you who can, we use different parts. This is just a neck of the bottle here and we cut out beautiful flowers. We paint the boards, these background boards, and then the girls just literally, they decide where everything goes, how many layers it has, how thick their petals are, how thin. I mean, I could go on forever. That's basically in a nutshell. And I think what they get from it is just a sort of calmness. Actually, do you know what? This isn't a very expensive material. This is something we've recycled. So there's not that fear of, oh, I'm going to mess it up. The acrylic paint lasts and lasts and lasts, so okay, it's quite expensive material, but they get the value of that. And what's lovely is they see, once you paint the outside of the bottle, and then once you cut it and bend it back, you get this lovely almost stained glass effect. And what I love about this one, which is a VE Day project actually, is you can actually see through to the other side and it's got that lovely, this is filled with water. So it's imagine a bottle, plastic bottle filled with water with these lovely flowers attached. And I don't know, it's just something that I absolutely rave about. And it's like I just, in any schools I go to, they just seem to just evolve these projects. And this is something with Ann at Sutton we've developed over the years. So yeah, no, that's basically plastic bottle sculptures in a nutshell, but yeah, hope that explains it. It does explain it. No, and I'm really intrigued by it. How did you come to start using plastic bottles in that way? Because that seems a bit of a leap. I mean, to me plastic bottles are a bit boring. Not anymore. Absolutely. Well, I hope not. No, I just think it's something because of the quality of, I mean, whenever I work with children in whatever schools, if I ask them to paint on something that they're not used to painting on, it suddenly, it's like anything, you know, if you, I don't know, if you, when I did my training, when I was training to become a primary school teacher, I did very fortunate to do a B.Ed. And we did, in those days, she did a sort of a degree at the same time. So I did my art degree then. I really wanted to go to art school, but it didn't work out. So I feel like I've sort of become an artist in a different route, which is great. And what I want to say is that I try and channel that into the pupils and I try and encourage them to think, look, you know, whatever I'm doing, I will sometimes think, this is actually, is this really interesting? I don't know. But when I go in and I explain it and I enthused about what we're doing, I think that's what comes across and I think that's what my sort of value is, is that I get very enthusiastic about something very simple, but then I think the pupils, they get quite a lot from that. And yeah, to answer your question, I just think it's transforming something into something, like you said, something quite dull and doesn't really have much purpose once it's finished, but we don't want it to go into landfill. We want to actually, you know, produce something beautiful from it. And over lockdown, it's been great because it's something that a lot of people have access to. So my, the films that I went on to make about how to create these sculptures, at first I was a bit worried because they're actually, you know, it's not something maybe the younger children can do on their own, but with support from families and people working together as a family unit, it seems to be quite popular. So yeah. So you have a YouTube channel now with ideas about how to do this? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. So like I said, at the beginning of lockdown, I basically, my work is pretty busy, pretty steady all the way through a year, an academic year, and sometimes I'm lucky it's through the summer holidays as well. But when lockdown happened, it was like, right, every single, and my busiest term is the summer term, obviously, because everyone wants, like, after exams, we want lovely projects for our pupils to enjoy collaborating, et cetera. And I suddenly went from having all these amazing projects booked in to completely nothing. So that was a real blow to, you know, and I was lucky, at least I, you know, I was able to, I live in somewhere where we have, my husband's, you know, earning money as well. So it's not just me. So I was grateful to, for that. But actually it does affect you in lots of ways. You feel suddenly very useless, and you think, actually, what am I going to do about this? And I think like other people in lockdown, you just go to something that you know and try and share it. And if you're not going physically into a school because the school doesn't have, isn't open anymore, then how do you do this? And I was lucky enough to get a commission from Waltham Forest just for one film. That's what it was. And but before then, I'd actually started to film. So when they started to learn the techniques of filming, which were completely new to me. And I think you can see from my very first film to my last one, there's a slight progression. I get a bit more relaxed. I get like, I had some help with Waltham Stowe Film Lounge, who gave me lots of editing points and working on a, I remember the name of the program now, but very good editing program. So I had to learn all that. And I'm not particularly technical, but I don't want it to beat me. I'm like, no, I'm going to try my best. So I worked really, really hard. And for a 20 minute film, many 25 minute film, it was hours of work. But I enjoyed it. And it kept me motivated during that very difficult period that we all went through. And have you had feedback from people who've been using those videos during lockdown? Yeah, I have. Yeah. I mean, because it's on a, on a, you know, a YouTube for children channel. You don't have the comments underneath, which I quite like. I don't wouldn't really want that anyway, but personal comments on emails and from, you know, from Waltham Forest itself. You know, they were really positive about it. And I think what it, and even in my street, where we have like a WhatsApp group, which I know lots of, you know, communities have now, which is amazing. And there's a great massive page range on here. But when I was filming these, I suddenly didn't have any plastic bottles. Oh my goodness. And so I need to put out on there, you know, and is anyone got any, and I'd have literally bags of them in my garden. And then I said, look, does anyone want to, for the V day ones? Does anyone want to make some? I've got loads of acrylic and there are some teenagers up the road and there's some younger children and personal feedback that way was massive. Cause I felt I was contributing and, you know, and then other schools like Sutton and other regular schools that I've worked with, they sent it out as part of their home schooling. So yeah, that was amazing. And just seeing pictures of them, like spirals hanging up in the gardens, they took it to whatever way they wanted. And that was brilliant. Yeah. That's really fun. And do you think that you have achieved that aim that you had that day that you saw the lanterns being made in school? Have you kind of, yeah, scratched that itch? Yes, definitely. Yeah. It's been a long, hard slog. I've been, I am basically, yeah, left full-time teaching. Can't remember how old now. I mean, how long ago now, I set my business in 2003 and I thought to myself then, right, if I have to do some supply work, I will, but you know, I'm going to take that leap of faith and I'm going to go for it because this is my passion. And there's been some really difficult times and there's been some amazingly, like, I'm so lucky. I'm so privileged. I do the job that I love. And I think if you do in a job you love, you take the rough with the smooth and you just go, do you know what? At the end of the day, I am so lucky to be able to go in and share what I do with other, you know, with schools and community groups. So yeah, taking that leap of faith can be quite scary, but sometimes it's just, you might, I mean, I didn't even know I was going to teach until like two weeks before the course started. I wanted to go and be a textile designer in Brighton and I didn't get into the course. So like now, today, people are receiving A-level results and some people are not getting where they want. The people I know who are receiving, I've just said, look, do you know what? These things sometimes happen for a reason and I'm really glad, although I would have loved to have been a textile designer. It wouldn't have been for me. I would have been unhappy and I didn't know that till quite recently. And I think it makes you realise that, you know, you just follow that path in life and sometimes it takes you to the place where you feel, yeah, this is great. You know, there are struggles along the way, but you know, you can get there, which is, you know... What form do those struggles take? Is this to do with when work is perhaps harder to come by? Yeah, well, I mean, they can take the form of losing a bit of confidence in your own ability. I think I'm not particularly... I can infuse about what I do, but I do take things quite personally and I can be quite, you know, members of staff in schools can be quite... Most people are amazing, but you sometimes maybe work with somebody who isn't so on-tune with what you're trying to do. So, you know, there's struggles in that way, but there's also struggles of, you know, behaviour and in the school, you know, when you're teaching. But there's also, I don't really know, there's just this thing about wanting to get it right every time. And if it doesn't say, I make mosaics in schools and sometimes because there's such... You have to get them right. You can't get mosaics wrong because they come off and all that's... And that can be quite challenging. And you have, for example, this year, we had a London Borough of Forest and Forest the last year with the London Borough of Culture. So we had a massive amount of funding and I work in a school very locally, a lot. I call them my sort of residency school, really, because I'm basically in there like Sutton a lot. And, you know, I had... They had money given to them to spend on these beautiful mosaic story benches. And I led the whole project. And because of the enormity... I've never led anything as enormous as that before and there was a lot of sleepless nights because when it came to installation, the lovely precast concrete benches that we'd ordered for the mosaics to be put onto, they were slightly too short. And so when we came to put everything on, there was this whole row underneath that sort of flapped under and I don't want to go into technicals, but oh my goodness, it was just like, ah, you know, and I don't think I coped with it very well. My husband was like, but it's funded. It doesn't matter. You know, it's not the school's money, but actually you feel so responsible and you want the mosaics to be beautiful. The children worked so hard on them and obviously we worked very hard on them and you just want everything to go right and I think that's what sometimes the issues are. You know, you just feel like... But we got there in the end. There was a lot of hard work, but my family, my daughter came back from uni, my friend, we all went in and we all worked together and got through it, you know. And I think I just know now to not take on too much. Just ask for help or just say no if you can't do it. I think those are all really important lessons and you need to learn more widely in life as well. And I think that must have been a special challenge because I think there's a couple of things there, isn't there? One is about your own self-esteem and sense of worth and that hanging very much on a project that you clearly really cared about. But then there's also the fact that in this work that you were doing, presumably you're also a role model to the children who've been working with you. And so then, you know, what's the right line to take? Do you want a role model? You know, perfectionism isn't necessarily the answer for overcoming adversity. So how did that influence how you acted? Well, I get... I mean, I didn't... I think it was coming up just before Christmas and it was starting to be very apparent that this wasn't going to be the easy project or the easy installation. I think installations are always... doing the actual workshops are fine. It's the installations that become... because they're outdoors and things like that. So I think, you know, a member of staff was really... I got quite down about it and I was actually just in one of the classrooms. The children had gone home and I was in there just sitting there like, I just don't think I can do this. This is just too hard. And she came in and she obviously saw that I was really upset. And I was just like, you know, I just needed her... I didn't want to be, you know, to show I was upset. But I thought, you know what? Sometimes it's better to just say it. And I did. I just said, look, Marie, I'm really finding this very difficult and I don't know. And she was just so amazing. She was so, you know, so positive about it. Look, Kat, it all happened. It's just, it happened to be Christmas and we were about to all shut down for Christmas and I expected everything to be done. And then we had the Christmas holidays and then come back to something that you haven't finished. So you've got it at the back of my mind. I would have it at the back of my mind. So to deal with that was like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to enjoy Christmas, but I got there and I did. And I just had to put it to, you know, it's quite hard sometimes, isn't it? To put things there and leave them and think, look, let's move on and, you know, find strength and through friendship and talking to, you know, other people about just literally letting go of it. It's, you know, sometimes difficult, but I tried and I did and we got there and everything worked in the end. So yeah. Presumably that is a challenge of doing the thing that you love as your job because you can't step away from it in the same way that you might be able to if you were doing something that you cared less about. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, my basic, my work never finishes. I mean, lockdown's been brilliant for me mentally because I've actually, I started off by like running around trying to do all these films. And I have, like I said to you before we came on out, I said, I've actually not done any for some time because I now want to go back to doing something with a lot more calmness and a lot more sort of being good to me. So my mantra since then, because, you know, it did affect me quite badly. And also I started all these high intensity workouts and running. And I do, you know, I love exercising. It's very good for my mindset, but actually my friends said to me, you're just doing too much. Why don't you use this opportunity to do yoga? So I've actually, for the first time in my life, I'm doing yoga and it's changed my whole life already. And I'm, you know, it's only online on 30 days of yoga thing, but actually I, it's going to really help me when I go back to work with schools again. It's going to give me breathing. It's going to give me self-worth. And I feel like it's actually, you know, without lockdown, I wouldn't have done it. And I would have made the excuses, oh, the classes are too long. Oh, I have to go and drive somewhere, which I'm not going to do. You know, I'm not, I don't, I am actually quite agrophobic. I am. But then I'm actually quite claustrophobic as well. So it's a bit of a clash. And so leaving, you know, as an artist, as a workshop provider, you are constantly having to load your car up. I don't have a van. I'd love a van, but I have a car and drive to a school that you don't know. So the stresses of that, leaving your secure, lovely family home with all your equipment. If you forget one thing, it's not like you can just pop to a shop and get it because they might, they don't necessarily sell blue or magenta tiles, you know, so you've got to, anyway. So equipment is scary because if you forget something, you can usually muck in, muck by. But actually I like to be very organized. And then you've got a leader, go to a, you know, go to a school that you don't know, deliver, you know, get in, unload, deliver a workshop, do it. So they'll go, oh, wow, we want her back, which has used to be my, you know, so I'm trying to say this is what I used to be. And I'm hoping now going forward, I won't be like this. I won't put too much pressure on myself that I am only human and I can, you know, I can get by. So, yeah, basically I'm hoping, and it's quite a unique job in that way. There's a lot of artists who go out into schools and I'm very jealous of them. And I love them, they're amazing. But, you know, the music workshop provides us, you can just come in with a little iPad or something and press play. And I'm like, there's me with thousands of crates of stuff. And then the teachers come down to the car park sometimes, the amazing teachers who see you struggling, which are like, I'm like, actually, yes, there's this million bags to take in. Yeah, so, sorry, I forgot what the question was. Well, you were talking, is it yoga with Adrienne that you've been doing? Yes, yeah. My husband is a big fan. He's always trying to persuade me to make a start with his other woman as he refers to her. Oh my goodness. Yeah, my husband, he's got the other women as well, because he has really bad back pain from computer work. Like, you know, a lot of people, and I'm getting him to do it now as well. And she is amazing. I'm on the second lot of hers now. And just, she just says to you, you've made it onto the map. You've given yourself permission to be kind to yourself. And that was my friend, that's what we decided, when I had a bit of a bad time in lockdown, is that actually, you know, to do with social, your whole social life, doesn't it? Your whole social awareness is just turned upside down and a bit of paranoia and things like that. And basically with her, she's just like, you've come to the map, be kind to yourself and, you know, breathe in, breathe in, sort of being, you know, nurturing breath and then breathe out. And it's all about just giving yourself permission to be, you know, to think kindly about yourself through what you do. And it's never, I don't think I'd have ever done yoga without this happening, you know. So it's a positive, really, it is. And I do recommend it thoroughly. And do you think you'll continue with the yoga post-law? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I really will. And I know she's got some quick ones that you can, I mean, you can access it on your phone and things like that. Obviously, it's better to have a quiet space, but I noticed there's a couple that I could maybe even do if I snatch myself 10 minutes in a school, like go and find a quiet area and just like literally the breathing and the awareness because I think I'll be a better person going into this next stage of my life because I think it, because I'm 52 now and I'm not really old, but I do find things harder. I find it harder to struggle in and I find it harder to think. It's quite a physical thing I do. I don't sit down all day. I actually took off my Fitbit about three weeks into lockdown because I was getting too competitive for myself. Usually I do, I think it's supposed to be 10,000 is what you're supposed to do, steps a day. Most people try and do 15. I was on 22,000 a day without even trying. That's how much of a physical job it is when you're commuting. You don't sit down, you're always up and about and it just got to me, I think. I just thought absolutely, I just need to be caught. And if I need to say, I'm an old lady now I need to sit down at this table and I'm going to do it, you know. I just think it's physically, it can be so draining and I do a lot of sewing on, you would do tapestries and last year, no, the year before, before Christmas I literally brought some tapestries home to sew on all these individual pieces that the pupils have made and I think I was sewing on something like 90 pieces in a day and I got massively, what's it called, you know, where you can't move your hands and stuff. RSI, and I couldn't work. So, you know, I've learnt to now just think, look, you know, you've got to be kind to yourself and if it takes you longer, you do it but I'm a bit of a whirlwind and I want to get it done like that. It sounds like you've done quite a lot of learning about yourself recently. Definitely, I have. And, you know, I'm lucky my children are older, ones went travelling last year and now he's back and he's working, he's very lucky he's got a job and my daughter's about to go back to uni for her second year and I think what you do is you realise that actually you've got time on your hands and I'm not, my friend will tell me off but I always say I don't know how people can be bored. I'm just never bored. I don't understand because I don't understand boredom but actually perhaps boredom is a good thing to do, to experience because I think it makes you just take things like actually I'm so privileged that I've got this 15 minutes of my day where I don't actually have to hear about and go and tend this and the other and also not having people in the house has been massively different because I just have these standards that aren't realistic they're just not, you know, they're not realistic and I know I've got quite close friends who are really house proud and I don't think it's healthy, I think it's actually I like things to be tidy in my work, in my job like I like to have everything I spent a lot of time sorting out my studio so all my mosaics, I love your books my mosaics are like that now they're all colour coded and to have that time to do that to have the radio floor on down in my studio to tidy up my studio has been massive but I come into the house and I think do you know what, we're a family, we've got a dog we live, you know, we're lucky we've got big space and I think now what I've done is because people aren't coming into the house because of lockdown I've thought, do you know what, we're fine as long as the kitchen's tidy in the bathroom scene you know, we can get by so I think that's also I get quite like, oh my goodness there's going to be people coming into the house in a few months time when lockdown or whatever it is, you know, finishes I think actually it's been really lovely I love having people in the garden because I could come round the side but having people in the house is I think it made me realise how you know, worries I get about how things look and how people might think of me that I'm slovenly, oh my God, you know and the house isn't that bad it's fine, you know, it's just lifting, you know it's loved absolutely, it is loved, yeah, yeah, definitely so yeah, I think you know, just taking time out once a day they're only short sessions they're not the full on hour, I think some yoga sessions are an hour and a half, aren't they, if you go to a class I presume quite a lot of that is self-meditation at the end where you may be given 15, 20 minutes just to lie and relax and stuff but once again, I'm competitive with my you know, how I am with my when I do something physical I used to do some but twice a week and I'd be like front row and I've got to get it all right and now I'm doing this yoga and there's nobody else here, it's just me and it's a revelation yay, and I think I can translate that to when I'm delivering my next set of films that I will be more, you know, take the opportunity there's nobody here to judge you and I do think when I did my drawing films about just bringing in a bit of calmness I will have more awareness of that myself now and I think that will hopefully help feed into my next set of exciting workshops which I'm starting to come in again they're starting to be re-booked which gives me massive hope, you know because if things, schools shut down again then obviously I will not be going back in so I've got this little niggle that I actually maybe think but I've just got to be positive and go look if I can, I can, if I can't I'll go back to doing more films and you know, diversifying and just seeing what comes up and just being hopeful like I said at the beginning everything's there for a reason and my husband's been working from home which has been amazing and actually we actually it's our wedding anniversary tomorrow 27 years of being together I think, you know we realise we're actually very lucky but we get on It's a long time, it's a long time Absolutely So do you think that what you hope to make people feel through your workshops whether they're face to face or people kind of joining by watching the videos do you think that's changed for you because it sounds like maybe it has a little bit I don't think I realise until I spoke to you, Vicki that Ash really has changed and I am going to be actually yes because yesterday I had to write a proposal for a school doing a recovery curriculum in Newton a school I've worked in before and they want to I really do think it's changed I watched your your course on Monday about Swan and it was very inspiring and I wrote loads of notes and I was like you know what, I'm going to take this and I'm going to trans when I do my proposals usually it's like dates when I'm coming in what the theme is what materials but I'm now going to add every time which I think will be really valuable please make sure all staff involved in this project please can they observe this paragraph and there will be a paragraph I think I've nearly cracked it but I'm using some of your your statements hope you don't mind but it's from your course and just things about going back to the child and you know if I'm coming in to do a workshop I know this I mean I'm not preaching but I was a teacher if a person came in to do a workshop it doesn't matter if it's history, science I'll be like there you know I'm going to take part I'm going to make notes I'm going to go and support that child over there who's struggling I'm sorry but I get teachers not all the time but some and I know how precious time is in schools but I get teachers who will sit and do their marking and I might nope that's not going to happen again and before I might say actually do you mind just putting that away because I think I need some support with this child it's somebody in your if you observe that child making this piece whatever it is you're going to learn something surely if you watch that group making this structure out with these surely you're going to learn something and I think what I'm what I those children deserve is me to say in a nice way a positive way wow let's have a paragraph where I almost senior management need to say this workshop's happening let's really make sure that we get the most from it not just an end product which is what I find a lot of schools are after a beautiful end project that's project that's fine but my theory has always been about the journey to that product to that artwork and I did my thesis and my dissertation on that and it's vitally important the drawings the warm up drawings the mistakes we make are all if we can like you were saying if we can do all those things and then get a positive experience from it then that's something that those children will look back on and go wow that was a great experience so yeah sometimes it's the journey and the incidentals that are the things that stick with us more even isn't it and we can learn a lot along the way and I wonder as well about with the kind of work that you go in and do surely that's a really brilliant opportunity for the staff to be learning and having fun and laughing alongside their pupils yeah yeah definitely yeah and that's my important right now yeah absolutely and I think this first project that hopefully will happen in September is you know it's going to facilitate that because they're in a bubble usually children rotate through to wherever I am you know so say eight to ten children will come in da da da or I'll have half a class and you know that sort of thing but now because they're in class bubbles I'm going to be going into their classrooms and so for me although practically sometimes it's not easy because I tell you what they have so much stuff on their desk and it's like oh get that out of the way and there's obviously going to practicalities of what they use because of the COVID regulations but I think it is massive like you say the staff need to feel part of it and I'm going to I've got things like all inclusive let's make sure we're all hands on and work together and you create something as well you know you go through the same challenges and experiences as the children and you will get some and you'll learn so much more it's like CPD in your classroom and that's what you know a lot of schools get so much from it because they are actively involved they encourage their staff to be actively involved it can be scary though as an adult if you don't feel that you're good at art to participate in that kind of activity can't it I went last year for a week in Wales to learn to draw so I haven't drawn since I was a child and I went and did the right side of the brain drawing course in a beautiful beautiful location and it was so hard I mean I loved it and I loved the idea that one could learn and the tranquility like everything about it was brilliant but it was probably the scariest thing I've done in a really long time just going and yeah just trying to learn something I just didn't know how to do and I had all these judgments about you know I can't do that I've been told I couldn't do that it was the one GCSE option I wasn't allowed to take and you know yeah so do you do you get faced with that kind of challenge from the adults in the classroom that they're scared of art yeah I mean I'll when I run adult CPD classes for teachers in schools and I immediately just try and you know get this sort of level playing field because like you know children in the class they all know who the best drawer is and they all know who's the best at art it doesn't matter what age they are and you're like actually we're just gonna let's get all that out the way and let's just think about this is a journey and we I make it try and make it fun with games etc and which I presume you did when you did your course because it's all about you know inspiring people just have a go and it's not all about giving the pupils just a plain blank piece of A4 it's like I said earlier about the painting on plastic it's about giving them something they suddenly go actually is this art and you're like yeah of course it is you know a lot of people's experience of art it's just like a pencil and a piece of paper or some watercolour paint etc but giving staff that right rather than giving them reams of photocopy paper to draw on why don't we just give them one really beautiful small piece of A of quality watercolour paper and you know a pallet of paints and just really I don't know big up the fact that the materials themselves will allow you to do something beautiful without it just a few brush strokes and then letting it dry and then maybe adding some pen marks wow you know it's not about I'm very much of like we're not going to sit and make a photographic image of some fruit we're not going to do that we're going to try and find something like goes back to the yoga try and find something in you that you can be proud of and I think that's what I going forward and back to what I've done in the past I think puts people at ease a little bit more there's always going to if there's not time to go through all that then obviously it's different but if there is time and the schools that get the best workshops are the ones that allow that sort of nurturing drawing and maybe I need to on my website promote that more I need to say look you know after COVID let's think about what is vital and like you were saying on your course the academic stuff it's got to it's got to wait and let's get back to being positive teachers positive with you know each other and making that foundation for things might be away through drawing to promote you know promote this sort of building blocks if you see what I mean yeah absolutely and I think that's such an important thing because I think there's going to be lots of children and teachers actually returning to the classroom in the autumn who are quite scared because they haven't been in this environment for a long time and they might be worried about re-engaging with their learning and whether they can still do it and it feels to me that yeah your kind of creative endeavours that gives them a chance to re-engage in a way that feels a bit more accessible and actually they do create you know absolutely yeah yeah I totally agree and I think having that you know take away I've done these teach meets over Covid as well with creative schools and they all teach take away as I suppose you call them and it was just like an hour and 15 minutes CPD a learning curve again massively because it's on Zoom like this and there's not you know I can't I've got visualised or anything like that so it's quite challenging but I did things and I did things like drawing big drawing small all those things and actually the comments I got were this has just made me you know feel more confident it's been such a scary time and that's something I can now take in I mean there was when schools were being phased there were some year groups in and some were and all that sort of thing going on last term wasn't there and now I know that quite a few schools are allowing and this school I'm in next term their teacher to stay with the class for two weeks as a recovery curriculum and this this workshop that I'm going to be delivering is part of that and I think that school have got it spot on because they like you say those children haven't seen their teacher some of them since March so and vice versa and so the teacher to have those two weeks with those children before they say goodbye and move on you know this I think is is a really good way forward and I hope that you know like saying I can I can through loads of different art projects but allow teachers to build up their confidence again because it is a scary time I mean I know that I will be quite if it happens I'll be quite nervous I mean I think I'm coming into well I hope so coming into Sutton and it's that whole not just being in the school it's the journey there the journey back where are you going to be on the way you know what's life going to be like in September and for all these pupils travelling in from various places as well you know unless they're confident and their families are confident and happy you know it's just like you said you just got to put the academic on hold and see how it progresses but I'm really I'm hoping it will be massively positive and what will you be doing when all the workshops consist of basically they wanted a recycle project so which is great for me because that's sort of something I as you know from I said earlier the flowers so they're going to be making their logo is a tree their school logo and they want it's derzing and school blossoms again and they're going to have recycled I sent them loads of options basically I said you could try this and this recycled are just great because you don't want this massive amount of stuff to prepare well you do have to prepare it buy it of course and so we're using recycled CDs or DVDs which the school that they're the children are going to collect and we're going to paint paint and draw on those with acrylics they're very sort of similar to this stuff here but you know patterns and wording and the wording is all going to be generated from the first drawing activity we'll happily have circles on paper and they'll we'll do lots of warm up drawing about I think it's courage hope resilience I think those are the three words that they've they've come up with so far as a school moving forward and they wanted to do with the schools on recovery we're going to we're going to nail this we're going to we're going to get through it as a team as a whole school so there's going to be a mixture of CDs in their school colours and flowers so little you know blossoms of recycled butterscotch flowers which I'm really happy about because it gives me I know it's a project I can deliver I just wanted to be a project that I can deliver in a way that fits in with the school and where they are at this time so it'll be it'll be a massively important project for me and for them I think so it's quite exciting to see it's great that they're really embracing that because I think there is this culture-based project are going to be so important in kind of rebuilding our learners so that they will be strong and I think that you know we talk about sort of traumatic growth and this has been a challenging time but I think that our young people might come out even stronger if only we manage this interim bit in the right kind of way I think that's going to be really vital what do you think about some schools are going the other way aren't they and they're really focusing on kind of catch up curriculum which is where music and art and things like that probably going to get sort of sideline what do you feel about that well I don't I think that they would be find maybe in a few months time that they're going to it's not won't have worked and I do think that you know there may be a compromise is great you know compromise is fine and if there is the pressure on certain schools to achieve certain things and I totally understand you know I work in state and independent schools and I can see there is some always a pressure in some certain sectors of education but I just think there has to be even if it's I don't know even if it's just like some afternoons where art and music and drama and dance take place it has to be recognised as something vital to go alongside the academic the catch up and you know what the catch up it might not happen like for another the child the COVID children as you call them they might not catch up for some time and I just think if I was worried about catching up I wouldn't catch up but that's I you know I respect that there's there are a lot of different ways of learning and catching up can mean many different things but I personally think it's it's not a priority I know parents would expect it to be and that's I don't see senior leaders have got a very difficult few weeks months ahead and I do feel for them because I think they've got the support of the government or the politicians that's by I'm not sure what the angle is I don't know I was waiting for a I think there was a I think it's tomorrow is there an update on COVID regulations so we will see but like I was saying holiday that's what they normally do great they do do stuff to respond to it but I just think you know my whole thing about collaboration you know we still need to collaborate even if children physically can't be near each other and can't share equipment so my whole thing is about sharing equipment so that's another massive challenge for a creative practitioner is how are you going to manage that you know how are you going to still deliver workshops and be sharing any materials you know we're going to have to suddenly provide 390 sharpies rather than 30 sharpies or something like that so there is definitely a question about that but yeah I personally think that they should go down Derzingham's route and do a recovery curriculum and you know and just use those two weeks as actually if we spend two weeks really coming together and listening to the teachers getting us all confident and feel confident in our space in our bubble with our routines of what we're going to be doing from hand washing and all that then everything else can follow and we can speed through it probably quicker than if we went straight in day or maybe had the day of like welcome back and then you know I just think all those really difficult times and there may be children with post-traumatic issues that have come out in many different ways I mean I'm not I didn't study anything to do with psychology but I know that children have massive emotional difficulties when they gone through something we all have and they may know somebody who's been very ill and maybe a teacher I know the school locally have lost a teacher and you know it's it's all very worrying if we think we can just plaster over that and nothing's going to erupt from it because I think it will you know so it is it's a concern yeah it's uncertain times isn't it and I guess that that's it that the schools who are engaging with you yeah my kind of opinion would be I would I think it's got to be a really positive for the children but I guess everybody's got a different point of view and we don't actually know the answer I think that's the really difficult thing now we're all kind of making our very best guess aren't we yeah yeah and I think it's been really interesting just generally seeing how different schools have responded during this time and Sutton the example we keep going back to I interviewed the head of the senior school there recently and she has a drama background so she's to be a drama teacher painting a lot during lockdown and yeah she's actually a really beautiful artist isn't she absolutely she's very good yeah and it's really made me kind of stop and think about how the things that we really matter to us personally how that changes how we lead and how that school is a very different kind of a school than perhaps it would be if their backgrounds were I don't know history or geography or English that's not to say it would be worse it would just be different changes and moves on suddenly the shutters will maybe come down and that school going on our priority is not to do creative activities anymore it's to do science and history which you know what it's fine but there's room you know when I deliver workshops I generally will touch on you know historical figure or you know mosaics for example Romans etc we do cover other things and there's so much maths in mosaics so you know I do get a little bit concerned that actually you know children can miss out on on something that might actually change like we've we've worked with you know like I can the head here my local school is passionate about they art and they they name their classes after artists every year new artists and they've had quite a lot of Eastern European boys in the school and they absolutely love sewing so to be given permission to sew and sit there and not have anyone go oh you're sewing is just one of the most amazing things that I'll experience in my career as a workshop provider because I've got my cat coming and yeah so it's just like you know to for that head to allow me to come in to do a project and then we have a boy who's not particularly academic sitting there going do you know what I reckon I'm going to be a tailor when I grow up and me and my colleague and we're just it just those are the moments that keep you going and I what I need to do is you know this is what has allowed me speaking to you I don't I don't spend enough time talking about these moments where you've gone do you know what that was the best thing that could have done yeah so you know it's far it is the heads are it makes a massive difference to what they allow and what they find the money for you know the budgets you know it's not a high earning school budget wise but you know they find the money somehow and they get you in and I just think look I'll do my best and I'll go above and beyond for schools like that because I want to it's interesting isn't it I always think that in my freelance work that the schools who really value what I do will find the money to pay for me to come and do that work and it's not really about budgets it's about priorities because there's always some money for the things that really really matter to that school yeah there is definitely and I know that from working with amazing heads in you and you know like in some of them like I said at the beginning some of the what got me through was like my head said you know if you're not if you're not going to do maths it was sort of just before sats when I first started teaching so I was quite lucky to have that year or two where I literally went in and my first hour of the day would be getting the children to come in on time and the way I got them to come in on time and not tip up sort of an hour I mean the attendance was horrific was to be actively playing social skills games with them in you know in the middle of the class I saw sitting around the classroom on the floor this is year three four not just year one or reception and the attendance went up and then it's like well then I'm going to start doing creative activities because I love doing them and what happened the attendance went up so you know I just think those obviously should probably get away with it now but it's a shame that you can't you can't get away with things like that I do find it like actually if the priority of that school was to get the kids in on time and then get them happy and learning then you know why not so yeah I do think like say it very much depends on the head and finding the money they'll find the money so yeah I coached the school last year actually who took a really similar approach who had a massive issue with attendance and particularly on a Friday they would have very few children turning up or lots of children not turning up and they did exactly as you've suggested doing kind of creative activities the first thing every morning on a Friday afternoon and they did kind of big enrichment type projects that the kids loved and they found that you know there was that pester power so even where the parents might find it hard to get the kids in pester the parents to get them in on time and it made a vast difference that's amazing that's really good yeah I think that's yeah it's something that's you've I've seen you know snippets of snippets of it as I've gone around like you very privileged that's going to loads of different schools and you go oh actually that works really well and if you could pick them all out and put them into one school it would be you know it would be amazing but I think there is more stuff that obviously with the advent of you know having the screen the smart screen in your classroom and all that there's so much you know just dividing up the day and making it interesting and not just you know having music or physical activities going on it's definitely I think I'm a bit jealous of people who are now in QTs because actually I would like to start it all again it would be an amazing journey because the technology's moved on so much and but I do use it in my work you know you used to have to hold up a poster of bang-offs such sunflowers and now you can have it massive it's great you know so that sort of thing you know is an improvement definitely yeah it's been really lovely hearing about all the work that you're doing and your plans and what's nice what thought would you like to leave people with what would you like them to hold on to? I just think what I just think like grasp on to the things that you're passionate about and keep them there um maybe accept that sometimes it's okay to be bored and to like just have time to reflect and maybe talk things through this is the first time I've you know I don't get interviewed because I basically go into a school with my books and I show them the work and they go oh yeah well I've one of those so for me to delve deeper a bit deeper into what's important to me and what I'm passionate about is really important so I just say maybe just find time to reflect and and ponder and write things down but also to learn to say no I'm not going to do that which is quite tricky but just just learn to say it and justify why and not take too much on and basically try in your work I don't know who you know people are young or older listening to this but just sort of like maybe try something out that you know that you you didn't think you would enjoy doing you might actually really love it or just you know search through and um listen to people who who know you well and listen to their advice without my friend Jane telling me to stop doing all that high impact stuff and try doing something calmer I don't know if I'd be in this calm state right now so you know and I might not have even looked at your email I might have gone out and can't do that that's just too difficult so yeah all those things and love yourself which is a bit cliche but you should