 All right, I think we can, yeah, go ahead and close the other one. All right, thanks for coming in at the end of the day. Y'all appreciate that. We'll go ahead and get started right now. So my name is Chris Russo. I'm here representing Savas Labs. This is our first time as a company to DrupalCon. So it's pretty exciting for us, my first time speaking. So I'm excited about that too. The session is about the total value of ownership. And I'll do a little prep before I exactly expose you to what I mean by that. But the idea is to look at what value you're getting out of Drupal, especially how it compares to other options in the CMS market space. So who are we? We are a group of eight, half guys, half gals. We're centered in Durham, North Carolina, which is in the Triangle region of North Carolina. Any of you all are familiar with that place? It's an exciting and growing place, a lot of technology. That map is sort of representative of roughly what the triangle looks like. You might associate better with those symbols. If you're a sports fan, basketball, especially, Duke and UNC and NC State, big basketball schools. Personally, I could not care less about those schools as far as basketball goes. And I think that's actually beneficial to this talk in some way, because it's not sort of loyalty out of location. And I think that translates to Drupal a little bit too in trying to be impartial about its strengths and weaknesses. We are also, that's our headquarters in Durham, North Carolina, but we also have some distributed folks. We don't say remote anymore. Boston, Boston, Mass, Portland, Oregon, and Chattanooga, Tennessee are some of those locations. So if you're looking to work with us and you're in those markets, we'd love to meet with you in person when at all possible. You cannot follow me. You can follow us on social media. I don't have a personal Twitter account, so that's the reason you cannot do that. I've created this wonderful graph that goes to explain I'm a bit too far on the laziness end of the spectrum and not quite high enough on the narcissism end of the spectrum, although I'm there. So it's worth pointing out that I made my head larger than Gandhi's on this slide, for example. And by the way, if you get a chance to, and you haven't yet read Kanye West's Twitter feed, it's totally worth it. I think he's working through some stuff, so if anything, it might make you feel a little better about whatever you might be going through. And while we're on the topic of social media, I did fire off a few earlier today to kind of get some buzz going. There is actually no truth to Jam from AQUIA's association to Jam Room CMS, but that actually is a real thing that I discovered when searching the CMS MarketScape. And so there are no rumors to Quell, as I suggested, that there might be. But if you are interested in Drupal and fake news, you might want to check out our Twitter feed. Don't forget I did score decently high on the narcissism scale, so I will share a little bit about me. That's kind of work me and real me, and if you're too far away to see the real me photo, it's actually a work trip, somewhat ironically, but we're out kayaking along the sunset, so I kind of enjoy being outside. I'm an active person. I biked to the conference only from a few miles away, but you almost always see me on a bicycle. So for the next 45 minutes or so, you'll get the work me, and then if you attend the social events after you can get the real me. I'll keep going about myself. The other, this is sort of the other half of my life. I founded this bicycle-powered composting company called Tilty Rich Compost, and this is downtown Durham NC, and that's not actually me, but one of our riders, but it's kind of helps explain my balance of really liking cycling and environmental aspects, and wouldn't you know it, we built, of course, our website in Drupal. So I also want to kind of, now it seems like even a few more folks have trickled in, just get an understanding of who you all are. So how many folks in the room are technologists, developers working on actual projects? Okay, so that's maybe 75% or so. Are the rest, how many folks are business owners, or sales, or sort of that end? Okay, so maybe there's a fair, that was about 50, so those might not be as cleanly separated as I might have thought, but that makes sense too. How about freelancers, individuals working, not part of a team, for the most part? One, two, saw a small hand back there. So then everyone else, part of a team, working with a team, yes? Roughly, yes, okay. How about folks who work exclusively or pretty much exclusively with Drupal as your product or service? Two thirds. How about folks that work with Drupal and a mix of other things? Those could be proprietary, maybe about half. How about folks who don't work with Drupal at all and are trying to get to know it a little better, a little better? Okay, a couple, three, four. Okay, that's helpful. So my roots date back to 2007 with working with Drupal. I started as a butcher here and what I mean by that is I was given a job, I was totally unqualified for, straight out of college with about two weeks of PHP experience. I was essentially handed a book and said, our project's late, you have no support, figure out how to build this. So naturally I did whatever worked with a pretty limited knowledge of what I shouldn't do and ended up hacking core and doing all sorts of the things that we know, those of us who know Drupal cringe at. But that was my start, so I kind of dived into it pretty deeply and learned through mistakes and now I'm running a Drupal agency, so I don't know if that's a good thing for Drupal or not, but that is the reality. But I do think that's the way a lot of people learn. There isn't maybe as enough training and support as we might hope and a lot of people learn on their own because it's open source and it's available. Okay, so total value of ownership. So I'll get into that a little bit more now. The talk, I'm trying to look again at the CMS landscape at large and understand the value that we're delivering. We're able to deliver the Drupal and other products and how that all lays out. The idea of total cost of ownership, which I'll get to in the next slide, is something that is somewhat known and that's just the idea of what does it cost me as a client to support this website project that you're working on and building for me so that usually boils down to custom development time, hosting costs, ongoing support and maintenance, those kind of things and the idea is you add all that up and you see what it costs. And my argument or what I'm at least trying to explore and talk about is that's just one side of the equation and if you're just comparing how much did it cost me to build and maintain this site and how much did it cost me to build and maintain this other completely different site, you're not getting at what value the organization is getting out of those, which is in my opinion the most important thing to look at. And then I've got a little description here of what total cost of ownership is. I'll just read it. The total cost of ownership is a financial estimate intended to help buyers and owners determine the direct and indirect costs of a product or system. Okay so obviously we need to somewhat define value if we're going to look at value across the CMS landscape. So value is something that is definitely objectively difficult to measure in a uniform way across all projects. I think for certain projects it makes more sense in certain verticals and certain kinds of companies it makes more sense but it's admittedly a difficult thing to say this is value exactly and it's definitely defined by each organization. For example if you're an online retailer you're probably looking at total sales. If you're a mission based nonprofit you're probably looking at reach to your audience and perhaps increase in fundraising. If you're an editorial and you wanna publish a lot you might see how well that tool facilitates your ability to publish quickly and more often and reach more subscribers that sort of thing. And our job as vendors to these clients is to ascertain what that value is and I think that's an important thing to start from and really even as part of your selection process say is what we're intending to build and deliver what is gonna give them the most value. You know maybe the case that there's another option that is not within your skill set and oftentimes that's a good time if you're fortunate enough to say this is not a project for us. So I'll start admittedly as I mentioned my experience is mostly in Drupal. So I've talked to a lot of people did a lot of research obviously the proprietary larger CMSs are when they come by all sorts of different names when you get up at that level investment. Those are a player in the game as well. It's not something that I have you know the projects that we're bidding on and working on are not necessarily competing at that multimillion dollar a year level which is usually what these guys are roughly fit for. So anyway I'll just I'll run through them quickly. I think it's kind of funny that this is Sitecore in Adobe the top two left pretty similar looking logos no. There's gotta be a lawsuit pending if not inaction on that the moment. Epi server is another a leader in the market and I'll show you a couple published graphs for those who know more about this than I do. Ektron and Epi server recently in 2015 merged SDL or a cold HP is that green box and then there's open text. So I would say it's I mean doing this research was like a bit intimidating because there are just so many options that are even more open source options once we get to that point. But you know you've got to whittle it down. We've got a question HP did. Okay so we've got an update to these slides. HP has sold we can merge those bottom two into one. I know it's so simple, simple is beautiful. Yeah and probably a lot of money. I also thought I think this joke is coming but I just open text is a proprietary CMS that strikes me as hilarious. That's good. Yeah so that's the rough landscape we'll look at. I think this is the, I have a forester and a gardener to research companies that evaluate these and you probably cannot see it that well from where you are but this is essentially a graph that as you get to the top right it's better and better. They've got these dividers that are called leaders. Strong performers and contenders. One thing that's worth pointing out again that you cannot see is that AQUIA is the dot I just pointed to which is well positioned in the strong contenders spot and it's even stronger on strategy than almost everything else except for Adobe but not quite as strong on current offering and those are a bit vague but I think that roughly means completeness of vision which is another term that these markers typically use. This is another graph, another breakdown and again I don't have a red pointer but it's the only other thing I wanted to point out here is they actually have automatic which is the WordPress private company that kind of drives WordPress and they are down in the bottom right quadrant and AQUIA is fairly well up in right position comparatively to WordPress and again all the other ones are proprietary systems not just private companies that have a solution. So as far as open source leaders again this was a difficult one to whittle down. I tried to essentially do it by market share with the ones that you're looking at. As we know that's not the only important metric to look at because there is a case to be made about simplicity suggests large market share versus more nuanced and niche solutions. So that's WordPress, top left, Jumla. Next one in Drupal 8, Plone. Out of curiosity anyone working with recently worked with Plone in the room? No hands. Blogger which is kind of blurring the lines of what is a CMS and what is just a blogging platform but as far as the research shows and I'm relying on W3TEX and built with to get that research they both show pretty much the same built with is a little bit better at showing trends and where things are going. And the last one is .NET Nuke, .NET Nuke which is a .NET CMS. But one thing I think one thing that's well worth pointing out is the top four all PHP course .NET Nuke is .NET and blogger is a service. Sorry the top three are PHP, Plone is Python. Plone has been stated as a more secure platform than other open source proprietary systems. And it's a little difficult like any stats to kind of justify that. I think there are some, there are some, they have fewer of these common vulnerable exposures, CVE and Drupal release is a big security risk, security threat that goes in this MITRE-backed database. Which you know anyway it's hard to say is it definitely more secure or not but it has this perception of being more secure and I think in that way it can be more easily sold to risk averse institutions, governments, that sort of thing. So it's on the way down as far as market share but I think may still hold on due to that fact. And what we're looking at really is all historical data so I think it's helpful to sort of know where you've been to know where you're going, that sort of idea but I think it's most interesting to look into the future and that's sort of the idea of what we're doing. I have this short list of who to watch and those are just again focusing on trends as we know and technology things can move really quickly and something that wasn't very present a year ago can come along and grab a lot of market share. So Kraft CMS is also a PHP CMS, has anyone in the room worked with that at all? There was something that was pretty new to my radar but a pretty well established company around us said they prefer it over WordPress and Drupal and it does seem to be gaining a little bit of market share. Magento is the one in the middle which is mostly an e-commerce platform so again definitely blurring the lines of what is a CMS but that came up and is actually growing year over year for the past few years so I think that the complexity of what e-commerce builds looks like sort of seem to be showing that the tool specifically fit for that is often gonna be the best choice. Ghost is the one on the bottom left which is a Node.js CMS so pretty new also gaining a little bit of traction it's got a nice interface a lot of the advantages that you hear people speaking about WordPress are saying Ghost is the next thing but definitely comprises less than 0.1% of the market and then Keystone.js is another Node.js and sorry the one on the top right is PrestaShop which is also an open source PHP like Magento e-commerce platform which is growing as well so as far as trying to narrow the scope of all of that down to a little bit something a little bit more refined and applicable to the landscape that we're all in as developers and business owners is that most of the CMS market is still open source PHP I looked at Django and Rails and there's a CMS called Refinery that's on Rails and these are usually less than 1% of the market share so it's really and those are some platforms that have been around for a while so it's unlikely I suppose to say that they would just spike up out of nowhere and capture a lot of share so it's helpful to see where Drupal fits in and in this graph the red dot on the top left is Drupal and so the x-axis is how many sites and the y-axis is traffic of those sites so I was actually pretty resistant to this finding I was sort of someone who's tired of the WordPress versus Drupal battle and justification for one over the other but it does what we're looking at and the research I've done and just my experience does seem to suggest that sort of what maybe some of us already feel or know and that Drupal is a more complicated steeper learning curve but more potentially powerful tool to harness and therefore is more fit for more complicated sites whereas in the WordPress comparison it's often has an easier use case for folks and they can spin a lot of them up more quickly and that's what this graph is seeming to state quite clearly and the others on there are Magento blogger and Joomla Joomla is the farthest down on the traffic side and second most in site installation so again whittling that down I'm primarily trying to compare at the moment Drupal Joomla and WordPress so this graph is a Google Trends graph on search terms and yet another way to try to look at this not a perfectly accurate statement of market share because what if you're all really searching why isn't Drupal working and I love WordPress but the blue is WordPress so you know at some point around 2011 it kind of went up ahead of everyone and has remained there for a while yellow which is sloping downward is Joomla and Drupal has sort of been somewhat static and lower compared to the other two but I think one thing important to point out is it seems like Joomla has dipped and there's a reason to believe that it will continue to in comparison with Drupal it's also another trend to point out is that according to markets and markets from 2015 of course it's already come and gone to 2020 there's expecting a basically a two fold increase in CMS industry investment from roughly three and a half billion to almost seven billion dollars so it's good news for those of us in the industry but also interesting to look forward and to what's coming so how is Drupal 8 doing is something worth looking at this is what we're looking at here is the adoption of Drupal 8 with the project usage statistics on Drupal.org if you look at the top number is essentially or the top row is essentially present day or a week ago and there are 100,000 Drupal 6 sites versus 70,000 Drupal 8 sites so we're almost six months into Drupal 8 having been launched and we're still at a point where Drupal 8 lags behind Drupal 6 so that does mean something and Dries has written about this quite recently last week I think I was the last person to comment on this blog post trying to justify and saying that Drupal 8 is catching on and we're doing great and I think there was good and healthy feedback from the community saying well maybe and I'll go to the Drupal 7 statistics maybe we're not quite as doing as well as Drupal 7 did and if you look at these statistics Drupal 7's launch I believe was January 5th, 2011 so these usage statistics the top two are kind of in between that date but the second row shows that Drupal 7 there were more Drupal 7 installations than Drupal 5 the week it was launched so folks are already on 7 and it was already better than two versions prior to it as far as adoption so that's something worth looking closely at and like I was saying I think there was a healthy debate about that and there are lots of complicated reasons as to why that is I have a few suggestions migration in general is something that's been a little bit difficult and continues to be improved so it's something that I believe a lot of folks were waiting for that process to become more mature before they felt comfortable going from 6 or 7 to 8 there were some key contributed modules that lagged for a little bit of time like Path Auto and even some of the e-commerce contributed modules that would a lot of these bigger sites are relying on and obviously it goes without saying but I'll say it anyway that there are significant architectural changes and the code base make it difficult to make it makes it difficult on your development team who is used to 6 and 7 even 5 and those of us fortunate enough to be involved with 4 which does not include me need to shift into a totally different realm I think and strategically how does that you know how's that position how does that help what does that look like for us now as we're where we're standing my personal my personal feeling is that the Drupal 8 platform now is does a good job of playing two roles and one is that it out of the box is something that has got a nicer UI you can do more you know some of like views and things like that are baked into core so it provides that sort of site builder experience and the ease of transition from folks who were primarily primarily site builders before it's not that different of a tool just works better in a lot of ways and it's nicer and it's mobile responsive and all that at the same time it's opened up to a wider yet more sophisticated PHP developer community so folks that are used to object-oriented program and symphony and all that so my take is that it's in the long run going to work out well and that it can kind of fit both of those use cases the more simple site builder implementer use case and the more complicated build use case but of course that's you know that's a heated somewhat heated debate in the community and that it doesn't go without its challenges I think backdrop CMS and that sort of thing is has been spun up due to some of these complexities and the fear that that would be a difficult system to adopt so it'll be something interesting to watch and see how that progresses so I'm going to try to define value in this pretty specific way and look at Drupal in this light throughout the rest of the talk and it's basically just smart people working real time on solving problems and creating new value so what do I mean by that? Essentially there's a lot that we don't know that will happen on the web that we will not be driving force of and the only way to adapt and move quickly is to have a well-built out community and contributors who are continuing to build for that community so what we're going to have in Drupal 8.3 or 4 or 5 we don't yet completely know in Drupal 9 and the most valuable thing we can do is retain and reward that community and keep them thriving so there's this trying to put some metrics and numbers to it there's this openhub.net site where you can, they use these metrics to sort of quantify the amount of time spent on particularly open source projects where there's access to the code base they used to be called OLO maybe some of you are familiar with that I prefer the old name because it's closer to YOLO but it's openhub now so if you go to that site you'll essentially see a tool called Kokomo let's take it, let's take it oh, I'll just turn my speakers up as loudly as I can look at Tom Cruise, cocktail we're, oh where is he going? we don't know where he's going you're not going to find out you'll have to watch cocktail Cruise in the 80s in his heyday whoo but anyway Kokomo is this tool that as I describe is you know surveys and open source project tries to understand and analyze time spent and the Drupal 8 has roughly 1.2 million lines of code now of course this includes symphony and other you know, getting off the island things built elsewhere but that roughly translates to 194 person years of work so you know that's just an incredible investment in my opinion and I think there's reason for this to be actually somewhat drastically conservative estimate this Kokomo tool was developed in the early 80s and it was made for projects of or it was used, a study of some 60 projects that were 2,000 lines of code up to 100,000 lines of code and of course those were projects that were primarily built under one roof so to speak not at all a distributed community all over the world people speaking different languages and again just as we know as projects grow and grow they get riskier and they take more time at that larger level and that technical debt is something to get over so I would say I'm not, I think it's possible that it's conservative by an order of magnitude and it's more like you know 1,000 to 2,000 people years of development time so it's just an incredible investment and it's one of the largest open source projects out there a bi-comparison JUMLA is 88, roughly 88 years or sorry 86 years of investment and WordPress is 108 years so still both with a lot of time blood, sweat and tears poured into the project but clearly Drupal stands out and also as far as the contributor community goes if you look at DrupalCores.com where if you're familiar it's a list of all the people that contributed to Drupal8 they attribute 3,538 developers or folks who contributed to Drupal8 and I think I have these numbers right but the WordPress core committer community is roughly 55 and JUMLA is somewhere in the low 300s so it's just access to a much more present and larger audience and that comes with positives and negatives but I think it is a more accessible and more involved framework from that standpoint again speaking to the community we've, you know, if you go to getinvolvedrupal.org slash getinvolved you'll see 100,000 over 100,000 users and just last week there were 2,500 commits and 4,800 comments so, you know, obviously we're I don't know if everyone shares this feeling but I sort of have this impression that Drupal used to be a very, very developer-oriented community and now we're doing a better job at thinking more about user experience and opening that up to other stakeholders in the project that ultimately make it a more mature product and, you know, all those comments those aren't just developers going back and forth those are, you know, project managers commenting on an issue queue or in folks contributing to documentation and that sort of thing so I think, you know, the community is an essential asset to really, to really speak about to your prospective clients and in that vein of the future is we don't know in an active community is what you need. So I'm not the first person to have said this or thought this but I think it's worth revisiting from time to time. The quote on the slide is from Dries and he says it's really the Drupal community and not so much the software that makes the Drupal project what it is. So fostering the Drupal community is actually more important than just managing the code base. So I think that captures that really well and it's also a nice, it's a nice thing to hear from the Drupal leader as it were and I think it rings very true. And actually if you all were at the Dries note this morning kind of reinforce this in a different way but said quoting we still exist because we keep reinventing ourselves. So he said that just this morning at DrupalCon and I think again that perfectly captures the idea. So we understand that Drupal is valuable and especially those who know it well and have been using it for a while. I think it's helpful to think about when Drupal does not make sense. I think one of the key areas where Drupal doesn't make sense is if you're doing sort of a one-off involvement in other words your client isn't necessarily interested in any sort of ongoing improvements or the access to new features in the future that might be nice or doesn't take security seriously that sort of thing and that can be something a bit difficult to figure out but ultimately what you're getting with Drupal is the access to those things and the fact that you'll need to maintain doing security updates and paying attention to the site means you're staying involved for a longer time. So it's not as well-fit as for example a WordPress where maintenance is a little bit easier and security updates are a little bit easier and more managed by admins than developers. All right, battling inertia. So that can take a lot of different meanings ultimately. One way of thinking about that is a client that's used to and loves WordPress for example or Joomla or whatever it may be. Just because there's a lot invested in folks' comfort and familiarity with a certain product and a certain software and you don't want to battle that too much in my experience. It doesn't mean that you can never take over a WordPress or a Joomla or a Plone or whatever other installation. It just means to be mindful of that. You can also think of inertia as if you're collaborating with someone and they already have a development team or they and they're expected to be involved in the project are they gonna be able to make that shift to Drupal if it is from something else. And I think ultimately when folks have a bad experience with Drupal that in a somewhat indirect but real way affects the breadth of the community. So if you are trying to shoehorn a project in that doesn't really make sense. That's those are kind of the opportunities where you're better off saying no maybe somebody else can help you better and especially it's useful to establish relationships with others that you do know do those other things better so that you're still in some way consulting and being a friendly face and being a helpful advisor and saying you know we don't do that great we're gonna be honest with you, go with them. So what I think results from this whole looking at value in this way is it's a call to action to a lot of stakeholders in Drupal. I was at a open, what's it called? Forgetting the name of the conference right now. All things open last year and Mark Laven had this quote who's a hiring manager for they're actually a Django shop and they are about 20 feet away from us in downtown Durham. And he had this quote that it takes time in mentorship to contribute to open source and not everyone has those two things. So I think it's a very difficult thing to contribute in a really meaningful way. Those of us who are in businesses who at least are paid to do some of this work. It's a little bit easier because in some regards have that privilege to do that. But it's a hard thing and it's especially a hard thing on your free time and that's a big part about fostering the community and making those opportunities more accessible to the rest of the community that will take Drupal a long way. And I've got a video here of Wim Lears who's an Aquia, a Drupal 8 core developer and is responsible for Big Pipe and some of the other caching and so other larger improvements in Drupal 8. I think he kind of captures that. I call it privilege and obligation. He doesn't necessarily use the word privilege but we'll see what he has to say. Precisely because you have to be able to work on that particular area for a long stretch of time in order to get it to completion and otherwise you're going to leave it in a partially finished state which would be far less than ideal. And so yeah, I think most of us who have the ability to contribute full time actually try to make sure that they help people who are doing it in their spare time help those people push forward those more tricky problems and try to support them along the way to help them get it to the finish line. I think because many of us feel that obligation. So I think that's a pretty, you know, that captures that well and he's got a good perspective in my view of an obligation at the business level. So that kind of naturally leads to call to action for businesses. You know, support Drupal, right? It's sort of this idea of you get what you get and don't get upset, right? So, you know, I think there are very real selfish reasons for businesses, especially at a certain scale to support Drupal. You know, it can definitely be helpful to your image if you've got contribution in the code base it looks like you're an expert because you are an expert. So you're doing things like hosting code sprints and hosting meetups and contributing code and having paid set aside time to contribute code. I think are essential things for the survival and the thriving of Drupal. And I think the more that the business community embraces that, the more likely we are to continue to thrive. I sort of think about it in the way of, I think Mark Zuckerberg and, you know, some of those other extraordinarily wealthy folks have this idea of this giving pledge. I think it's giving pledge.org. It's somewhat similar in that they're, oh, we have all this money. We pledge to do good with this money by the time we kick the bucket, as it were. So I think in that same regard, those who are benefiting a lot from Drupal do have a bit of an obligation to give back. And I definitely appreciate it can be a difficult thing to juggle as a smaller and growing company because, you know, there aren't infinite margins for us to do that, but it's something that if you see more of in the community, it's going to be a better product. And for example, this is a Drupal agency. I won't be specific who they are, but I've subscribed to their newsletter. They say our investment in Drupal 8 has given us unprecedented access to the latest Drupal 8 techniques and put us light years ahead of other agencies. They actually wrote of others' agencies. That's not my mistyping. But, you know, clearly whether or not that's a strong marketing light years ahead, maybe not, but regardless, they're clearly saying we've been building Drupal, we're experts, Drupal 8, we're experts, work with us, we're the best. And so there are very real benefits to that. And I think I'm loosely using this term Drupal leadership. This is a call to action in my opinion for Drupal leadership broadly. And that means, you know, the governance of Drupal, again, business community, leaders all over Drupal, and just providing resources to do these Drupal 6 to 7 to 8 migrations, right? There's, you know, I speak with my development team and certain folks who've had a foundation in starting with Drupal 7, it is a big curve to get to Drupal 8 and work with object-oriented programming and different, it's a whole different model. So the more the leadership community can kind of get these resources out there, the better. I think this is something that's also been talked a lot about, and I think in general, Drupal does a very good job, but facilitating contribution and making that easier. You can spin around an issue queue for a long time sometimes, or there are certain barriers that make it difficult to contribute. And I think those are things we'll just have to keep working on and pay close attention to over time. Yeah, so what is beyond? I definitely don't know that, and I don't think anyone else can speak super honestly and say they know exactly where the web is going. So since that is the case, I think we should do all that is in our power, reasonably within our power to foster an active and healthy Drupal community, and ultimately that is what I think the value of the future of Drupal will be. And last slide, I just wanted to thank some contributors to my talk. I spoke with the CEO of Sandstorm Design, Sandy Marsico. My team was helpful in giving feedback, very helpful. We do host a local meetup, Tridug Meetup, Triangle Drupal Users Group, who was also helpful in brainstorming about how to approach it. And I did speak with a built with founder who walked me through some of their statistics on how to analyze some of that. And that is time for Q and A. Okay, so I will ignore Doug in the front. No, I'm just kidding. That's a lot of stuff that's just like a very nice one. Wow, that's a perk. Perk of speaking, y'all, free watches. Go ahead, Doug. Cisco from Isovara, Waltham, Massachusetts, go ahead. Yeah. That was great. Thank you. So the question is, roughly, with those new entrants, the ones I said what to watch for, what are the threats to Drupal in that marketplace? And all of those, if I recall correctly from the stats, all of them were 0.1% of market share lower. And Drupal you're looking at, depending on the study, 7% to 15%, somewhere in that realm. And Juma also in that realm, roughly the same. I can't identify anything that's a clear, oh, they look like they're going to do this better. It's just sort of something, looking at the trends. For example, Ghost, which is Node.js, CMS. In this built, if you look at the built with tool, it shows you changes over a week. They break things down by top sites with 100,000 top sites traffic-wise down to 10,000. And Ghost recently, just last week, went from zero to eight of the top 10,000. So that's a significant thing. Of course, they're not likely to sustain that level of growth all the time, but that's something to look for. Is that helpful? Yes, in the back. So the question roughly was, do we have stats or even anecdotal story or two about, is it easier to migrate from five to eight or six to eight or seven to eight versus, or is that migration process more difficult than migration process sees in the past? A year and a half ago, when I started the company, I sort of stepped out of the actual development role, but our CTO is in the room, and if anyone else has any specific insight into that, into whether Drupal 8 migration is actually more difficult, I would love to hear. Go ahead, Costa. Just so I can get it into the mic, I guess my anecdotal, the typical Drupal stance is that you'll have an easy, I'm air quoting, way to migrate your data, but of course, functionality. The sacrifice of Drupal moving so quickly and developing on top of itself and changing APIs and all that gets you the latest and greatest, but it means that your backwards compatibility of code is never guaranteed. But I did a point and click seven to eight upgrade, at least, that the data worked. That's my anecdote. And there is a mic there, I'm happy to repeat the question, so if you all wanna stay, but yeah, go ahead, in the back. Yeah, so the question is, would you recommend a Fortune 1000 company who's not on Drupal to build on Drupal 8 or stick with Drupal 7? The more, I don't think it really makes too much of a difference from a functionality standpoint as whether you're a Fortune 1000, 5,000, 10,000, or you're not publicly traded, but it's always, it's this answer that we always say, it depends, so I think an honest vendor will try to walk you through that process. If you're a Fortune 1000 company, you've got the resources to mitigate your risks and to do a full on discovery and say here are all the things we exactly want in need out of the site build and then your prospective vendor should have the ability to say yes, I can definitely do this with Drupal 8. In most circumstances we're saying yes and again as time goes especially after this week when a lot more improvements will be made with folks on site that sacrifice or that lesser functionality that you are getting with Drupal 8 as it stands is kind of going away. So the more time goes on, the better Drupal 8 looks for you. Hopefully that was helpful and rambling. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I agree. It wasn't necessarily a question but it's definitely a valid thing to affirm that if you're talking about building on Drupal 7 now and thinking about that, you're also shortening the lifespan of the clients of that website. I don't know that there are a lot of folks on our team that seem to think the way that the Drupal 8 rollout is going, that Drupal 9 will come sooner than Drupal 8 did compared to 7. I can't substantiate that with any real data but it's feasible to think that that's the case and it won't be a five year window, be closer to three year window. So then if you're on Drupal 7 and 9 comes out in three years, you're three years and three months or six months, you're exposed to security threats that you wouldn't be with 8 or 9. Any other questions? It's gotta be one or two. Costa, go ahead. Yeah, so let me try to distill that down to something a little shorter. So what's my sense in the research that I've done of other technologies and their level of adoption versus Drupal or PHP, for example. And I think that I kept finding myself having to narrow the research to be able to speak in some sort of coherent way about something small enough that it made sense. I did look at things like STARS on GitHub and different projects and that is where you see various node JS projects and different JavaScript frameworks exceeding. But I think in a somewhat unsophisticated way those are, there are tools in unsophisticated way meaning my analysis of it. There are, those are tools that are easy to spin things up more quickly but maybe don't have advanced of a feature set as a more well-established product. So in that regard they're not currently competing in the same level even when I was referencing those Keystone JS which I think it had roughly the same amount of STARS on GitHub as does Drupal but the Drupal community is not really, it's focused a little bit away from GitHub so it's not, I don't know if that's a fair comparison. So all that to say there, it's stuff to keep an eye on and it's just like, we have to change quickly with whatever else is out there and we can leverage those things if they're open source to improve the whole, what is it, rising tides, lift all boats, that sort of, that sort of mentality I think stands through. Doug, actually Doug already asked a question, does anyone else have a question before Doug's comment? Go ahead Doug. Oh. So as a trend that I do kind of out I've seen new petrology developers being tempted by the new technology that I've seen so I'm happy to be able to see a more decoupled mindset because people continue to be excited but I'm seeing something going on. Definitely. Yeah, I'll restate that into the mic so Doug is saying that more native apps, clients are certainly requesting those, there's this idea of decoupled front end that Drupal is pushed a lot and I know there's been, a lot of folks have blogged about that and have had varying success because it's a difficult thing to pull off really well but I chose not to go down that line because I thought I would keep talking too long but I think what is a CMS and what is a framework? Those lines are kind of blurring and what is a web site versus a web app versus a native app? Those are also blurring so I think if you're listening to your clients and they keep asking for those sorts of things you're gonna figure out ways to do it. Ways to learn it. Any other questions? That's it. Well, thanks for coming. Thank you.