 We've got seven DRB members here and I'm glad to also see our applicants and some members of the public as well. So thanks to everybody for logging on before the meeting so we can iron things out. It's fine to participate with just audio and if you'd like to participate with video that is also an option. So my name is Kate McCarthy, I'm the chair of the Montpelier Development Review Board and I'm calling this meeting here on June 4th, 2021 to order. Thank you for being here. What we're going to do next is review the procedures for participating in this meeting considering the format is what it is and so for those procedures I will turn to Meredith. Did you want me to do that before you introduced everybody or after? Forgot to introduce everybody so after. So what I'm going to do now is introduce everybody. Thanks Meredith. I'm a little rusty here after the holiday. I'm going to go in order on my screen and say the names of DRB members and give them a chance to introduce themselves and I will start with Roger. Hello. And Abby. Hi everyone. Kevin. Hello everybody. Rob. Hi everyone. Gene. Hello. And Michael. Good evening. Good evening. All right. Thank you. Thank you all for your introductions and now we'll talk about the remote meeting procedures and process or rather Meredith will. Okay. Give me one second. I'm going to share my screen. Get this going. All right. So this is a lot of this is for people who are viewing via Oracle. As well as for people who've never attended a DRB meeting before. For those of you who are on the Zoom meeting right now, if you're having issues with your audio, please note here's my email address right here down at the bottom. So feel free to shoot me an email if you're having any issues. You can also use the chat function but if you can't figure that out, shoot me an email. So for those who are watching via Oracle, you can participate in this meeting if you choose by joining the Zoom meeting using this link here. Or you can call in using this number and here's the meeting ID and password and you can also download. I'll go back to this in a minute. You can also download the meeting materials here, though of course I just realized I'm not sure how to go backwards. Give me a second. Sorry. I shouldn't have done it that way. I'll go back to the meeting materials link in a minute. So the Zoom meeting is being recorded as well as streamed live. Turning your video on is optional as Kate noted. Public testimony tonight will be taken verbally, although you can also shoot me an email and I can always at the end of testimony for people who are actually present, I can read that into the record if need be if you're having issues getting through. Chat function should only be used for troubleshooting or logistics questions. Please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking to reduce background noise. If you're participating by phone, Star 6 will allow you to mute and unmute and we'll actually see that in the Zoom that you're muted. If you're interested in speaking on a particular matter, please raise your hand physically if we can actually see you on the video. Alternatively, if you're on the phone, you can press Star 9 and that'll create a little hand raised signal on the Zoom so the rest of us can see that. And then once the chairs recognize you to participate, if you're not one of the applicants, please make sure that once you've unmuted your microphone and confirm that you've been heard, that you provide your full name and address for the record. This lets us send you the decision at the end of the, when the decision has been made, it lets us send you a copy of that. Please if you're providing questions, having questions or comments as a member of the public, please try to keep those initial comments to two minutes. The DRB members will then have the opportunity to respond or ask questions of you and the applicant might have an opportunity to respond as well to the board. And the chair can grant additional time for speakers who have follow-up questions or comments. When you're finished speaking, please make sure to mute your microphone again. And the chair will move on, but you can always pipe back up with additional questions, but please don't speak until the chair has recognized you. If the public is unable to access this meeting, it will be continued to a time and place certain. If you're having connectivity issues, try turning off your video or closing other applications on your phone or computer. And then if you're having, like I said, here is where you can link to the, all the meeting materials. So if you're having trouble viewing the meeting materials you're calling via phone or something like that, you can always download the full meeting packet at that link. Please note that all votes taken during this meeting will be done by roll call vote. And I'll hand this back over to the chair. All right, thanks, Meredith. All right, so the next item on the agenda is the approval of the agenda. And before I entertain a motion for approving the agenda, I would like to note that item nine on our agenda includes the opportunity for a board and public discussion of a procedure we've been using here in Zoomland, which is deliberative session for all of our applications. That means we go into a separate Zoom that is not public to talk through the decisions. And we've been doing that to improve consistency of the decisions, to create solid conditions where necessary, and to smooth things out in the Zoom averse here. So that is the last item on the agenda. So if it's okay with other board members, I'd like to inquire as to whether any of the, any members of the public are here for that issue. And if you are here to talk about that part of our procedure, could you please pipe up now by unmuting and saying you're interested in discussing it? Because if there are folks, I might like to move that up in the agenda. Is anyone here to talk about agenda item number nine, use of deliberative session? Okay, I wanted to pause just long enough to find buttons on phones and unmutes on computers. Hearing that nobody is on that, I think we can entertain, I would like to entertain a motion to approve the agenda. So moved. Motion by Kevin. Is there a second? Second. Second from Jean. Is there any discussion? All right. I'll take the vote by roll. Roger. Yes. Abby. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Jean. Yes. Michael. Yes. Rob. Yes. And I also vote yes. So we've approved our agenda. Thank you. The next item on our agenda is comments from the chair. I don't have any comments. And after that, we have the approval of minutes of our last meeting, which was December 21st. There are four of us who were in attendance and eligible to vote. Roger, myself, Michael and Rob. So are the, is there a motion to approve the minutes of December 21st? So moved. Motion by Roger. Second. Second by Michael. Or was that Rob? Rob. Second by Rob. Sorry. All right. We have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion? Okay. Of those eligible to vote, please, please vote yes or no. Roger. Yes. Michael. Yes. Rob. Yes. And I also vote yes. So we've adopted the minutes of December 21st. Thank you. So that brings us to our first agenda item, which is Seven Charles Street. It's a request for a second access that is a second driveway to this duplex. So what we're going to do, what I'm going to do is swear in anyone who wants to be heard on this, and then I'll have Meredith give an overview. And then we'll hear from the applicant who is also here. So I see that Tom Harris is here on Seven Charles Street. Is anyone else here to be heard on this application? Okay. In that case, I will swear in Tom. If you'd please raise your right hand and I'll swear you in Tom. Thanks. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? Yes, I do. Great. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. So I'll turn it over to Meredith. And then Tom, you will have a chance to speak on your application as well. So, Meredith, could you give us a brief overview, please? Well, I am going to keep this pretty brief. As you said, this is an application for a second driveway for this parcel, and that's something that has to be approved by the Development Review Board. And the second driveway would provide access to a second off-street parking space. This is a duplex on this parcel. And right now there's only a single parking space accessible from a shared driveway that goes up and behind to that parking space. So this is a new new new driveway for a single parking space for that second dwelling unit. The you can go through my staff report and see where there's things in red. It really my sense is all pretty much points to the same question that I had, which is what the actual width of the driveway is going to be. There's not a set amount in here for that. There's it shows how much room there is, but it doesn't necessarily confirm that the driveway is going to be that full width. But that's something that could be dealt with with a condition where applicant and Department of Public Works agree on that final width. And I have to have a final site plan with that before the permit gets issued. So it's still, even though it's an issue, I don't see it as a huge issue. But I think that it's worth the DRB going through the staff report and looking at those items. Sure. Thanks, Meredith. So that's what we'll do. We'll hear from Tom Harris, the applicant, and then we will walk through our staff report to make sure that the different standards within our zoning are addressed and we'll spend more time on the ones that have a few more questions so we can ensure that this meets our regulations. So with that, I'll turn it over to Tom Harris. If you'd like to tell us a little bit about your project, please. Sure. Thanks, Kate. And thank you, everyone, for taking this up for consideration. I appreciate it. As Meredith, I guess what I'll, the main thing I wanted to point out is the reasoning behind the second driveway. And as Meredith pointed out, there's only one parking spot, excuse me, there for the two units. So this would give that one extra spot for the residents in the other unit who don't currently have an off-street parking spot. And in addition, Charles Street is one of those streets that's on the Never Park during the winter parkings band thing. So that's another sort of reason why it assists with the parking on that. So that's the reasoning. I did go out and it's in the right up there. Hopefully it's mostly clear, but multiple times to take measurements, check the property boundary markers and also with a survey that was in place as well. It looks pretty clear that there's no issues as far as the space that would be needed to put the parking spot in there. As far as what Meredith was mentioning about the width. I mean, I care, I guess, a little bit, but I don't care about the width as long as I just wanted the best chance for it to get approved is, I guess, what it would come down to on that. So, but that's kind of, yeah, that's just a quick, quick overview. OK, thanks. That's that's helpful as we're, I appreciate the drawings included with your application. Thank you for those. So one thing I'm going to pause before we continue. And I see that Daniel Sagan has joined us. And I, hello, welcome. Are you interested in commenting on the Seven Charles Street application? Daniel, OK, so I won't swear you in for this one, but we'll we'll revisit that when we get to our next one. Thanks for being here. All right, so what we're going to do is go through the staff report. Starting with. Oh, and Tom, did you receive a copy of the staff report? Is that? Well, I have a the packet for tonight's meeting. Is that what you mean? That's it. Yeah, it's a nine page document. OK, yes. Yeah, so that goes through all the different standards there to meet. So let's just start with our general standards on page three. We have dimensional standards for accessory structures and uses. And from your application, we see that you're not expanding the building or changing the use of the building in any way. But we do have a coverage standard as to how much of the lot can be covered with a building or with a driveway. And the coverage maximum is 60 percent. So about 3400 square feet is the maximum that you could you could have for the staff report. Current coverage is about 2500 square feet, which leaves 800 or 900 square feet to available. And that's where the question about the width of the driveway comes in, in part. If the width is 13 feet, that would be 322 square feet of additional coverage, which is still well below 3400. So even if the driveway width was 15 feet, you'd probably you'd still be under that number. So you said that you're I guess I heard you say you're flexible as as to the width, but based on your your thinking and the vehicles that are present at your duplex or maybe in the future, is there an optimum width that you want to design for and have approved? We we we aren't very well suited as a board to make suggestions or to design the project, but we will evaluate your request. OK, sure. Well, I would say 12 feet. And I guess, you know, that might come down to also when if it was fortunate to get to that point on execution, if something worked a little bit better with the other professional that was doing the work, but I'll throw out 12 feet is as optimum. OK, so we'll proceed with review of a 12 foot wide second second driveway. Thanks. Thanks, Tom. So. This will we will clarify this in the permit. I'm looking at the staff report. I have another computer screen here. That's why I'm gazing off into the distance. Yes, so we'll just want to see that reflected in a final plan to the zoning administrator before the permit is issued. So that could be a condition. Do other board members have questions or about this? I'm going to move through the other general standards. They mostly don't apply. They are 30 or four demolition, 30 or five riparian areas, 30 or six wetlands and rental pools. Those are not present on the site. 30 or six steep slopes, which are not triggered by this application based on where the driveway is going to be. Thirty oh eight erosion control. Our standard is that any projects need to comply with the best practices for erosion control in our zoning bylaw. That's just kind of that's a standard part of constructing a project, but you don't need to do a professional erosion control plan for this project. Similarly, stormwater management. There have been no concerns expressed about the storm changes to the stormwater, no major changes to the site or concerns from the Department of Public Works. So are there questions about any of those standards and whether the DRB members need any more information to understand how those do or don't apply to this project? OK, thank you. So next is access and circulation. And this is section three zero one zero of the zoning. And it's the place where we have where it calls upon the DRB to review the second access in the first place. So that's that's why we're here for this. And our standard is that a lot may be served by only one access point, except that the board may approve more than one access on a lot when necessary to accommodate unique physical conditions on the property to provide adequate emergency access or to provide adequate traffic circulation within the site. So we heard that this is to accommodate the one half of the duplex. And it sounds like one of the unique something I might characterize as a unique physical condition is that your existing access is shared with 11 Charles Street. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. It goes back many years ago with this, you know, in the write up. And when the property was transacted a year and a half ago, they kind of tweaked that. The owners, the previous owners at seven and the current owners at eleven. So it's shared. And they have the property line kind of cuts right along their building. And they have a sort of in the basement. An entry exit way. So as they come out of that, they're kind of, you know, in the driveway property. So it's it's really they wanted to keep it that way. And it's important for them to at least have access around, you know, in that area. So that's probably the biggest thing. OK, is that part of what makes it difficult to accommodate both tenants up from the duplex with the single driveway? Or is there simply not space? Well, yeah, the single driveway is so only accommodates one one vehicle. You technically could fit two vehicles front to back. But it's really not feasible because the driveway narrows as it gets up higher. And if you did that, it would be quite a mess with snow removal and build up. And then also just taking the garbage and the recycles. You couldn't get by with with another vehicle there for that. So there's not only that, it's actually in the write up that two vehicles can only be parked there, you know, at certain times. That's kind of the agreement with the the other the people that share it with. So it's really a one spot driveway. Driveway, OK, thanks for that description. I would note that shared access between adjacent properties is strongly encouraged in our zoning bylaw. So you are already doing that. So you're certainly meeting one goal of the zoning. Dear members, would you like to know more about in order to help you decide whether this is necessary to accommodate unique physical conditions, provide emergency access or adequate traffic circulation? No, I think it's pretty straightforward, Kate. OK, great. Thank you. Thanks, Kevin. The next standard having to do with access and circulation is spacing. And that requires a certain amount of footed linear feet between driveways and those minimum requirement distance requirements are met with the proposed new driveway. So that standard is met. So the only other issue, and this is a blue highlight, not a red highlight, so it's, you know, is from Department of Public Works and the desire for clarification around where the public right of way line is for this project. And I wonder if there's been further clarification of that question between the applicant and the department or whether Meredith, if you've worked with DPW on that, what can you tell us about that? I couldn't quite absorb it as I was I couldn't I didn't I couldn't quite tell where we landed on that Tom, do you want me to talk about this for a second? Sure, that would be great. Thanks, Meredith. So I I'm sorry I didn't it was hard to explain and not just reiterate everything that was in the emails. But it when Corey was looking at it from Department of Public Works, Corey Lyne, I think he felt like it was really, really important to have a clear measure from the middle of the public right of way as to where that line fell. But we do have a survey. The survey shows that the public right of way is in line with PINs and Tom found the PINs. And so it seemed to me like maybe Corey was looking at a bigger picture that didn't really matter in this instance, given that we have I don't it was more than sufficiently from that PIN. You know, over 20 feet from that PIN space, you know, almost 23 feet, if you look at that exhibit three, which is on page 27 of the packet to get a 18 and a half foot long parking space in there. That's all the room that we need is to get a car out of the public right of way. So it looks to me like there's enough information here for the board to make a decision without us having without Tom having to go through and re-measure where the right of way is based on the middle of the road. Because we don't we have a survey. It's a year B if they if they feel like that there's not enough information, it can be resolved by having a final site plan that's DBW approved prior to the permit issuance. OK. If anything, this is surprising us because we don't often we don't always have a survey that gives us decisive information about where the right of way ends. So we're confused by something haven't been done right. Yeah, exactly. OK. But it's really just that simple, I guess. Does anyone have a question or comment about this? Well, I just would. Yeah, I think it is, you know, very crystal clear. And, you know, as long as the landlord or two believe that the PIN you found is the one that's there, I see no issue at all. OK. Thanks, Rob and Kevin. Yeah, just a quick one. What is the material that's going to be used for the second driveway? So that's not in the in the write up. And I'm not it would not be like a hard, totally membrane down. It would be like sort of a semi impervious material. I'm not sure what I don't have that, but I could come up with that very quickly if you need that. I think I think it's I think it would be helpful to have. So we know. I mean, obviously, if it's if it's under an asphalt that that creates a potential sheeting effect during a storm, whereas you just mentioned semi permeable, I'd like to know what that would be. Kevin, is this is I'm looking back at the evidence on 3009 stormwater management and the finding that it's additional impervious surface, but not a significant quantity. And the stormwater flow is not changing significantly with that in mind. Would that would that would be adequate, actually. But I guess just from just to fill out that issue, I would like to know what the material is going to be. But thank you, Kate, that's that's a good clarification. It's not a matter of of that being by itself a significant factor. But I think it's an answer factor. Sure, I think it's still always good to know kind of how we're developing our site. So I appreciate the question. And perhaps when the final site plan is submitted with the final width of the driveway, you could indicate on that site plan, the material that you intend to use for record keeping purposes. That would be that would be fine, Tom, if you could do that. And that way, you don't have to decide right this time what to build with. OK. All right. Great. All right. So I think that brings us through the staff report. Do DRB members have any other questions or information they would like to gather in order to contemplate whether this application meets the zoning requirements? OK. As I mentioned, alluded to at the beginning of the meeting, we have been taking our discussion about decisions into executive session or it's a deliberative session, not executive session. That's a very specific, different thing. Deliberative session is what we have been using in order to deliberate thoughtfully and come up with appropriate conditions in the zoom environment. And we've been doing this for all applications. So our decision to go into deliberative session does not reflect on anything that's good, bad or otherwise about a given application. It's simply our process for the last several months. So that said, I will take a motion to enter into deliberative session on 7 Charles Street at the close of the public hearing. The public portion of the meeting. So moved. You missed one little thing. So to close the public hearing on this matter and move into deliberative session after the close of the public meeting. Thank you. That's right. We in our meetings, we have a hearing. We have hearings on different applications, and those are separate things that are within the public meeting. So thank you. Thank you for clear clarifying that magnetic poetry on a refrigerator. It's changing the public hearing. Then technically you you're still taking testimony. And that's not what you're. That's right. Let's do it right. So the I would I would entertain a motion to enter into deliberative session or close the public hearing on this matter and enter into deliberative session on 7 Charles Street at the close of the public meeting. Is there a motion to that effect? So moved. Motion by Kevin second motion second by Jean. Thanks, Jean. Is there any discussion? All right, I'll call the roll. Roger. Yes, Abby. Yes, Kevin. Yes, Jean. Yes, Michael. Yes, Rob. Yes, and I also vote yes. So we've closed the public hearing on this application. We will deliberate this evening and then issue a written decision about your project. So thank you very much for being here, sharing information, submitting the materials you did and participating in the process. You're welcome to stay for the subsequent application or or move on with the rest of your day. OK, great. Thanks, Kate. And thanks, everyone on the board and Meredith. I appreciate it and have a good evening. You're welcome. Thanks. All right. So next we are moving on to an application at One West Street. This is a change of use application. The use being contemplated is a conditional use and we will also be undertake. So we will be undertaking conditional use review as well as minor site plan review. I'm pulling up my documents here. What I would like to do is if there's anyone here to be heard on this matter, who thinks that they might like to speak later on this, what I will do is swear you in and in order to do that, there you go. Please raise your right hand if you're going to speak on this matter. And please, if you're going to speak on this matter, unmute yourself so that we can. OK, so I believe Katie and Daniel so far. I see other other folks here who are not unmuted. Justin. OK, thanks, I'll go for it now. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury? I do. I do. Great. Thank you. So I'm just going to note Katie is the applicant and Justin and Daniel are two folks who will be interested in speaking. On the matter, so what we'll do is very similar to what we did with our last application. I'm going to turn to Meredith for a brief overview and then turn it over to the applicant to Katie to speak a little bit about the project. At that point, I may ask if the people attending to speak want to have specific things that they want to speak on that could be done during our review of the application or want to give an overview statement. Well, we'll we'll decide that in a second, OK, but you will have a chance to speak. So I'm going to hand it to Meredith. OK, so this is an application by the Moncology of Fine Arts to add a new use at One West Street, which is the Dewey Hall and it's the food service contractor use. So it's they already use that space for serving the students and other other entities who might might lease the space. I know it's one point. Necky was also using the kitchen for its students. But because this is a situation where somebody would be coming in and cooking food there, but then taking it somewhere else. So it's like a catering service. It becomes the food service contractor use, even though it's still just using the kitchen to prepare food. So that food service contractor use is a conditional use in the mixed use residential zoning district because it's a conditional use that has to come here to the development review board. You know, I don't think there's a whole lot more to my overview that doesn't get so detail oriented that we're getting into zoning regulations specifics. So I'm going to hand it back. Great. Thanks. Thanks for that good overview. I will hand it on to Katie to present briefly on the project before we go into reviewing the standards in the staff report. So Katie, please. Sure. Thank you, Kate and Meredith. So I forget exactly how long ago it was, maybe a month or so ago. Justin Turcott reached out to me with a question about our kitchen capacity. Justin has been providing meals for homeless and elderly throughout the pandemic by way of, I believe originally it was a federal grant. I think it now may be a state grant. He could probably speak more accurate accurately to the funding sources. And I was really interested in the conversation because we have been remote since last March. So our kitchen really has minimal operation. And so we certainly have capacity for this, not to mention potentially long term partnership opportunities. So as a result of that, Justin and I had several meetings with our culinary director, Mike Dewey's, and we all decided this was something that was worth pursuing to see if we could make it work. Justin, is there anything else you would add? Did I miss anything important about your funding or more background you'd like to add? No, that sounds great Katie unless the board wants to hear anything else. Great, thanks. Yeah, thanks. It's a good overview. It's always good to know sort of the backstory behind these projects, though I will just remark that our purview is limited to the, basically to the impacts of the project, but I sure like hearing about what's going on in town. So thanks for that. Okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to walk through the staff report and the items that have been flagged for us to consider have to do mostly with access and circulation. So comings and goings from the site, how it might affect parking for students at the dormitory when classes resume on campus. That is the type of impact that we, one of the impacts that we will be looking at. So that's going to be a time for discussion. Most of it has to do with access and circulation, so comings and goings. And parking and loading is a part of that. So how will people move around within the site and how will parking work once it's in operation. Skimming my notes here. Thanks for bearing with me. So, so before we go into the staff report, let me just kind of survey of the folks who are here to speak on this, which I believe is Daniel. Is there one specific issue you want to speak about? Or is there like an overarching comment you'd like to make use your two minutes to make here at the outset, because sometimes questions are answered as we go through the staff report. But let me just ask you, Daniel, is there one, is there a specific area of interest that you have with this or just kind of a general general here to comment. I have a specific area of interest. And I have a general comment. Okay. Would you like, how about you start with your general comment and we can incorporate your specific area of interest when we probably get to it in the staff report. Okay. Well, actually, I live on 31 1st Avenue. The property is actually a corner property on the corner of West Street and 1st Avenue. And our property abuts the building lot that the Dewey Hall building is on. In general, we absolutely support what the organization that wants to use the kitchen is going to do. So we have no problem at all with the idea that that kitchen will be used to feed folks who don't have access to good food. So that's my general statement as a neighbor. We're fine with the change of use inside the building. And we do not feel trepidation about delivery vans. Okay. And can I may ask about the nature of your specific comments so I can make sure we fit it in the right place. The nature of my specific comment can be addressed to the statement on page 13 of 13 of the staff report. It would be item 25 sub chapter a sub chapter III where it says any additional cooking odors will be similar to those present when students are on campus. I would like to address the cooking odors when students are on campus. And there is, I'll address that when you get to it. Okay, I'll make sure to make space for that. Thank you. Okay, help me plan the meeting so appreciate that Daniel is there anyone else who who is here to speak on this I just I like to be a little extra sure, especially when we're talking to each other from boxes. All right, then let's go ahead and move through the staff report. That's all right with board members. Great. Okay, so we're going to start as we do. There is some overview information here about some of the parcel and property history, having to do with past being subject in the past to institutional PUD I'm not going to get into that because it doesn't govern what we're doing it's just some context. People can ask questions about it later if they wish. So we're going to We're going to know we're going to start with overlay zoning districts on page four of 13 of the staff report that this is in a design control overlay district, but we're talking about a change of use, not a change of the building. And so this does not. This is exempt from design review. And then moving on to the general standards. The, as we heard from Meredith, the addition of the food service contractor is a conditional use so we will evaluate it for its impacts under the conditional use review standards not the general standards. In sections 30 to and 30 or three are the dimensional standards. Lots set back density buildings those things aren't changing. Similarly, standards related to demolition, riparian areas, wetlands and vernal pools, steep slopes, erosion control and stormwater management. None of those apply because the site is not being modified. So I will pause and see if DRB members have any questions. Okay, thanks. So that brings us into section 3010 access and circulation. And we discussed this because we want all of our developments to promote safe and efficient access to and circulation within a property for a vehicular bicycle and pedestrian traffic. So the access to the site is not changing. Is that right? There's still, there's a driveway in today and it's going to be the same driveway tomorrow. So same width, same access point onto the parcel. Correct. Yes. So what is changing is that there will be a slightly different volume or type of user of the site and the application and the staff report indicate that that's about three vehicles that will be using the site in the parking. And that, how to put this, it's about 12 to 14 weeks a year that under under normal circumstances students are on campus. Correct. And during those weeks, that's when our food service is fully operational. So it would be staff that would be using that lot that lot is not a student parking lot just as a point of clarification. Oh, thank you. I misunderstood that. And I think I misstated earlier in this meeting. So thank you. Thanks for clarifying that. So that'll be a staff parking lot. Okay. So is it the case that when you're operational with your staff meeting parking, will the food service contractor vehicles need to park on the street or will staff need to park on the street? That would probably depend on who gets there first. There, there is plenty of street parking or additional parking lot. So we don't anticipate that being an issue. Okay. And maybe a question for Justin might be if the delivery vehicles and the if the food, the vehicles that deliver food to the kitchen and take prepared food away. If they need to operate from parking spots in front of the building, what sort of impact if any, does that have on the surrounding area? We would hope to utilize the seven existing parking spaces in the staff parking lot as they're closer to the loading dock and that's kind of what they're designed for. If we did need to use street parking, I think ideally, and maybe Katie can speak to this, we would be using other VCFA designated parking that was off street on other parts of the campus. But in the event that we did have to put unusual circumstance, we would put a vehicle on the street. I guess it would be like parking any other car. Okay. So it sounds like you anticipate that it won't be necessary to park on the street for delivery purposes. That would be the exception rather than the rule at those times when students are on campus. Yeah. And Justin, help me make sure that I'm explaining this accurately. So Justin anticipates a maximum of three vehicles from his operation using that parking lot, one of which would be a van that would be doing deliveries. And I am imagining it would be parked and then it would pull up to the loading dock, it would get loaded and then it would leave. So just to sort of paint a picture of what that would look like. And Justin, does that sound accurate to you? So even if that van had to be on the street for some reason or in a different lot for another reason, it would still come to the parking lot, to the loading dock be loaded and then leave. Yes, you're correct there. And I would also just add the perspective that as a former instructor of the New England Culinary Institute, I had the pleasure of working at this facility for five years and I intimately understand the importance of not idling vehicles, keeping staff, you know, not making a lot of noise. We had a lot of students there and so they're a signage up already from before, but we certainly want to be good neighbors and considerate of all the people in the neighborhood. Okay. Great. So do board members have any other questions about access and circulation and we're kind of blurring into section 3011 parking and loading areas. Michael, I know you pipe up when you when you need to, but I Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. Okay. Okay, you're welcome. Great. So we'll move on to page seven of 13 of the staff report and and confirm that we are addressing the standards of 3011 parking and loading. So this, this use has, as we've discussed, there's no regular customer traffic. It's not a retail operation. So, comings and goings in that sense are very, very non-existent. And we've talked about how there's a variety of parking options both on street and in other areas of the of the college to accommodate staff as well to accommodate staff when when schools in session. We have a standard that projects that will receive regular deliveries or generate shipments by truck need to quote demonstrate that there will be adequate off street space for loading and unloading without interfering with traffic circulation, access and parking. I think we've just discussed that. Are there any other questions about that standard. Okay. And can you confirm Katie or even even Justin from your previous work that the loading area has overhead clearance of at least 10 feet. It does. It does. Okay. Great. So the parking lot is not being redesigned significantly it's just being utilized by a different set of vehicles. Okay. All right. Great. So I will just note from our staff report and from the DPW's review of the application that with the on street parking with the alternate side parking in the winter that may limit on street parking. Does that raise any can. Does that new ish approach to winter parking affect your confidence that you'll still have adequate parking. It does not and we don't anticipate using street parking. Okay. Great. Thanks. I just wanted to have one question about that. That you know, Rob, you sound I'm sorry, Rob, you sound a little far away. Can you hear me better now. Yes, thanks. Okay. So what about the food deliveries like from the supplier. Not just the, you know, the vehicles that you will be operating but the, you know, will it be big 18 wheelers backing into that parking lot or what not. Sure, I can speak to this if that's all right, Katie. Sure, that's great. Thanks, Justin. So we utilize about four different commercial vendors, but they can't they know that they can't put those trucks there they've been coming there for years for necky. And so they bring like a smaller box size truck. And we also have signage up and the vendors are familiar and we'll be sure to enforce the deliveries cannot come before 7 o'clock or after 6pm. There's also no idling signage already posted there and so they understand that, you know, again, we want to be good neighbors and we understand we're in a semi resident we're on the edge of a residential area and so we anticipate those trucks coming once or twice a day turning off their engines in once they're inside the parking lot or they won't be blocking the street or any street traffic pulling up to the loading dock unloading and leaving. Great thanks. Any other questions from board members. Okay, so I think we've discussed access circulation parking and loading. Moving on to page nine signs, not applicable. No new signs are proposed. So that brings us through the general standards and we're going to talk now about the site plan standards. This is a minor site plan approval and review. Section 32 of two is bike and pedestrian access and circulation. And it looks like their existing sidewalks and internal walkways and those will not be changed because of this use of change of use. Right. Landscaping and screening. So there's a landscaping and screening plan except when there are changes of use on a site that's already developed in accordance to an approved site plan and this site is already developed in accordance with an approved site plan. So the landscaping and screening requirement is either met or exempt. You've done it. The setting is not applicable because no changes are proposed. The same is true of outdoor seating display or storage. Solar access and shading does not apply because this is a minor site plan. And design and compatibility is also a major site plan standards it doesn't buy here. Okay. I did that a little quickly but are there any questions about the site plan standards. When the site doesn't change the site plan often also doesn't change. So that stands to reason. All right so that brings us to the conditional use standards. This is where we'll get at performance standards like noise and odor. So, first question has to do with the capacity of community facilities and utilities. Do you see this project is having a great impact on sewer, water, electricity, schools, parks, roadways. We do not. Okay. One question from DPW had to do with how food scraps would be dealt with and we have testimony by email that VCFA believes its current holding capacity will accommodate the new use. That's accurate. That's correct. Great. Okay. Thanks to get that in the record. Do board members have questions about this category of impact? Yeah, Abby. I'm not sure this falls into this category. I'm just wondering about volume. And if you anticipate it sounds as if that the facility right now is not being used for being very underutilized. But do you anticipate that the volume of activity will increase over time and would then potentially impact city services and other, you know, characteristics. So, it's a great question, Abby. So, as I said before, we're all remote right now. So definitely for the time being, no issue with Mike, VCFA's culinary director and Justin have worked in this kitchen before. We know the capacity of the kitchen, which is quite substantial. And they feel confident that even even if we got to the point where both operations were able to be working simultaneously that we wouldn't it would not overwhelm the capacity of the kitchen. When we are fully like our largest program is 110 students, and that kitchen was built for I did the math previously over 300 students so we're never in a position where we're actually sort of producing for what that kitchen was was built for originally. So I don't know if that has completely answered your question. Justin may have more to add, but please follow up with other questions. Sure, Abby. One other consideration is that with necki folding up here in Montpelier, there used to be a lot of necki students that would utilize that space for their food service needs as a cafeteria. And so you've got anywhere from most recently 25 to up to several hundred necki students in the past 10 years that have been living on campus and using that for their food service needs. So at the same time that we're able to bring food to people who needed in hotels and through everybody eats, necki is no longer here. So kind of add one, subtract one. Yeah, thank you that that helps. Thank you both. Sure. All right, we're going to move on to the conditional use standard of traffic section 3303 and we've discussed already that expected volume and just to confirm it sounds like I think I heard two to three delivery trucks a day going in to is that correct. I would say maximum often depending on volume we may only get deliveries a couple times a week but that would be the for certain the ceiling of say three trucks per day delivering and one to two trucks going outbound. Okay. And the standard we need to show is that there will not be an undue adverse effect upon the traffic in the area. And I would This, this seems like a fairly minimal amount of coming and going. Yeah. Just wanted to flag for you that we have a new attendee Chloe Wexler. So when she added to audio, I just want to make sure that we don't miss her. Okay. Great. I will pause. I see Chloe's unmuted. Welcome Chloe. Hi. Good morning. Good morning. Good evening. Hi. You made it. I made it. I live in the neighborhood. I found the piece of paper and remember that this was tonight and I decided to jump in and listen. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Chloe. What I'll do. Do you think you might wish to be heard on this to add some testimony or comments? I don't have any comment that I will provide. I just wanted to listen. Okay. Great. If that changes, please let us know if I swear in people who provide comments so I can do that. But if you just want to listen, that is also fine. We're just going through the staff report and we have done much of that at this point. So, okay, thanks for signing on. Great. So we were just talking about traffic and the do do board members have any any questions or concerns about traffic? Okay. Okay, then we're going to move on to the character of the neighborhood standards. Again, the standard that we need to meet is doesn't have an undue adverse effect on the character of the neighborhood. And we've heard that there that some of this is comparable to what's happened in the neighborhood before we know that the college Hill East Street neighborhood character description incorporates the campus of BCFA as well as historic homes on major streets. Proposed development should protect the historic character and appeal of this neighborhood while allowing for compatible infill development and adaptive reuse of older institutional and registered residential structures. And then we've received testimony that there will be some additional light and noise from the additional van delivery and traffic with approximately three new vehicles in the parking lot for brief periods of time each day. We heard that that won't happen before 7am or after 6pm. Most project noise will be within the building. And here were any additional cooking order orders will be similar to those present when students are on campus and some increased in waste production will occur but similar to what's produced when students are on campus. So first I'm going to ask if board members have any questions about these items and then I'm going to get back to Daniel who was interested in speaking on this. Okay, so I'm going to have Daniel speak and then we may have more questions from the board or we can hear from the applicant. So Daniel, please. Again, Danny Sagan I live at 31 1st Avenue which is right next door to the property. And I lived here for a little over 17 years and have been through various iterations of owners and occupants of the building. One thing that sort of occurs over time is twofold. Often, or not often, there have been occurrences where members of the staff working in the kitchen have been smoking cigarettes in the space between the fire exit and our fence and the smoke goes into our yard and we've asked for this to change and it has been addressed in the past. And there are signs that say please do not stay here and smoke and there have been many staff members over the years who've understood this and have smoked on the corner of west and first or smoked on the west street side of the building, which has been very nice. We find when the staff changes or the use changes there's often one or two people who don't know of this rule or accommodation for the property line. And when we remind them of such or when we come across around the corner and we say, can you please not smoke there they're very accommodating, but it takes our effort to get them to stop. This also occurs sometimes when there's outdoor dining and outdoor cooking. There is sometimes a barbecue and I know that the preparation of meals for this new use will probably not include barbecuing but sometimes the barbecue, the smoke from the barbecue floats into our backyard. And again, when we go around the hedge and say could you please move the barbecue it's all done very politely and accommodating and there's really no issue there but I guess I appreciate Justin's comments that he said they want to be a good neighbor and that he's already aware of the signs. I just would hope that any new staff members who want to smoke be informed very early in the process where they're going to smoke. And if there's any need to cook outside that it not be done so that the smoke enters our yard and I would say that our yard is actually quite small and it's bounded by the house and therefore it's sort of like an outdoor room and once it fills with smoke it smells like smoke. That is my comment from the borderline to the edge of my property and the Dewey Hall's property. Can I respond? Yes please Justin. Danny thanks for taking the time to come to this meeting. It's great to be able to hear from you directly and you know so you don't have to talk to people one after another. I think we can certainly address this. I would just like a little more clarity on, you mentioned a fire exit and I'm in my mind imagining the narrow strip of land kind of on the backside of Dewey Hall that comes out onto First Ave. Is that kind of the space where you don't want people to be? Yeah, you're correct. So the space where people smoke, there's the first avenue side of the property. If you traverse along the property line between my property line and Dewey Hall's property line there is sort of an alleyway and included in the alleyway is a fire access out of Dewey Hall but also a short flight of steps that goes into the cafeteria entrance of Dewey Hall. And there's sort of also like a bit of an alleyway to the parking lot where the dumpsters are on the loading dock is. There's sort of a space there that one could best describe as an unpaved alley or maybe it even has concrete paved for part of it. And it becomes a hangout space because it's out of the wind and there's a bit of a picket fence that also is on the property line and it's a delightful place to have a cigarette. The only problem is that due to the thermal patterns of the site all the cigarette smoke goes into our yard. So that makes it clear to you in your mind where that spot is. There's also signs that say please do not hang out here and please do not sit here and please do not wait here here. There are signs that actually stay it so that you can't have a cigarette and not see the sign. Yes I'm clear on where the space is. I just wanted to confirm it is where I thought it was. We do have a couple smokers on our staff and I will make sure they haven't been back there but I'll make sure they know that. And then additionally as we start to resume residencies if we see folks coming out of the cafeteria and maybe using that space we'll try to politely let them know that there are plenty of other spots on campus where they can go so that their fumes don't come into your living space. And also with barbecues. I appreciate that. We will not be lighting them back there and any fumes we'll do our best to be a good neighbor to you. Thank you I appreciate that. Thank you both. I'm glad we could air those concerns no pun intended. So I will clarify that those types of things that are unlikely to be part of the permit or conditions to the permit but this venue is a completely appropriate place for people to get together and talk about what changes to the neighborhood means. So thanks for doing that constructively. All right so we've talked about some of the character of the area standards including odors and waste production. The last couple things on the character of the area are architectural compatibility which the architecture is not changing. So we can assume that standard is met. And same is true for yards lot coverage and landscaping. So do board members have questions that they do board members want to ask questions to get additional information about character of the area and whether they're whether and how there would be impacts. Feel free to ask them now. Okay. All right I see Kevin Kevin is rejoining us and we've completed the review of the character of the area standards Kevin. I'm sorry I just everything just crashed all I'm just getting back on it now. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for letting us know sorry for the crash. But you persevere. These things happen. They do they do. They could happen more thankfully we're pretty lucky. Okay. So, at that we've been through the standards. Do you folks have any I will put it to board members of their any final questions or comments about anything in the application. Roger. I just have a question of interest for for Katie or Justin. How many meals do you prepare a day, Justin. The current state contract has us preparing today we made 111 meals for distribution in the Northeast Kingdom, but I would add that we will produce that number of meals seven days a week. The state contract was written to allow some flexibility depending on demand for these meals for people who are cold and need to come out inside or are having domestic problems or our first responders a variety of other reasons that people may need to quarantine for COVID and they don't have the situation at home where they can do so safely so that these hotel rooms are available to them. So we're anticipating between 700 and 900 meals a week that are being delivered to five or six sites, mostly in the Northeast Kingdom right now. Additionally to that, we just finished up a contract with everyone eats, which was much closer to home here in central Vermont and Montpelier on Berry Street and in very city for the Salvation Army and the Good Samaritan House. Also serving healthcare facilities where there were pop up breakouts where they needed their food service team had to collapse because of quarantine requirements so that they were able to continue to serve their populations. That was roughly an approximate number of meals per week varying from 800 to 1200 meals per week. As you may or may not know that funding for that program has ended at the end of the calendar year, but we are anticipating and looking forward to resuming being able to participate in that program. So what should we be invited in that funding is resumed. So I guess that would put us somewhere in the 2000 units per week range. Great. Thank you very much. Great work. Thanks. Any final questions. All right. Well, thank you for walking us through that project and answering some questions and concerns. As I noted before, we, we conduct our deliberations in a deliberative session that is a private session in order to reach better, better outcomes conditions and conclusions than are possible to do smoothly on zoom otherwise. That is what we hope a temporary, a temporary thing, but something we are doing for all applications now, just regardless of complexity. So we will do that this evening and issue written decision. So with that said, is there a motion to close the public hearing on this application and move into deliberative session at the conclusion of the public meeting. Okay, I move. I, I, I move that. Motion by Kevin. Second. Second by Abby. Any discussion. All right, I'll call the roll. Roger. Yes. Abby. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Gene. Yes. Michael. Yes. Rob. Yes. And I also vote yes. So we will enter deliberative session on this matter at the conclusion of the public meeting. Thank you all for, for participating. You should see me here tonight. And we'll be in touch very soon. Thank you. Good night. Good night. Thanks. Good night. Thank you. Great. So we'll move on to item nine of our agenda. Oh, sorry, Danny. I was just saying thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Good night. Thank you. Item nine. Our next meeting is Tuesday, January 19th, owing to the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday on Monday, the 18th. And as usual, our meeting will be at seven o'clock on Tuesday, the 19th. So what we have next is board member and public comments or discussion regarding the use of deliberative session for every application discussion. When we started doing this, probably in September or October. So that was a new thing. We, my proposal was that because it was new, we should treat it as a pilot to see how it helped or hindered our operation as a board using zoom during COVID-19. So we asked Meredith to put a note in the calendar for the new year so that we could review and discuss this as a group. And she did. And here it is. So this is our opportunity to talk and including to get Meredith's feedback on how this has been working, whether we think it is serving our process serving the public and ensuring better decisions. So I would open open it up to our discussion. Well, I guess in general, I would just say I think it. I think for the limited use of during the pandemic that it makes perfect sense. And we're making no discrimination between the really complex project and the really simple project. Everything is on an equal footing. We're not getting caught in that sort of twist, twist and shout that we sometimes do about, well, should we go into deliberative session on this or not, we've already we just removing that as a as an as a as an issue. And even in some of these which it seems like it would be a no brainer just to say to devote. I think that by doing it on the blunt in the blanket way we're currently doing it just eliminates any of that kind of conflict. I also think that that, you know, in that fine day when when the skies clear and we're allowed to act like real human beings again. It'll be great to go back to to the old, you know, system of deciding at that time, if it requires deliberative session. That's my thinking. Yeah, yeah, thanks Kevin. That's that. That's how I feel to Roger. I do to I think Kevin said it well. I think as a general rule it's good to do deliberations and public that my experience on the on the DRB. But that's really tough with this with this funny medium. And I think everything Kevin said is very sensible and prudent. Any feedback from anybody about the public, you know, from the public as to whether this is working not working now. Yeah, I haven't had anybody comment to me either way either applicants or anybody else after the fact. I mean, we also if an applicant is coming to me the next one or two days after saying hey what happened. We haven't had any situations where we've had to, you know, do multiple deliberative sessions or anything like that. I've been able to tell them look, you know, you got a yay or an a we're just trying to I've got to pull together the decision. We haven't had any weird surprises or anything because it's been really clear and I think you all have been really good about really being clear from the applicants about where what what possible conditions might be coming out of a decision. So I think as long as that continues, I don't think anybody's going to have an issue. I mean, it's not delaying the written decision, any problems with it. It was definitely an improvement with the going into private session and not keeping the public waiting for us to get back to the meeting. Yeah, just and for us to became such a time saver and in a relief for those waiting. So that was a good call and I think this is more comfortable way for all of us to do it with this such improvement. Yeah. Thanks, Jean. I think for those who weren't here what Jean may be referring to in part is there were a couple situations where we went into deliberative session and kept the public meeting open. So the public was waiting for us to return and say what had happened and that I that made the put a lot of pressure on the deliberative session and asked a lot of the public's time and created some uncertainty for the public. I'm having to wait. So, yeah. Okay, Michael Rob any, any thoughts. Yeah, I think for some of the simple applications I do wish to in a way we could just decide on the spot but you know I think that given the situation you're in, just doing it for all every single one is you know makes sense like Hopefully we're not in this for that much longer. Okay, Michael any thoughts. No, I don't like zoom or the pandemic and I'll leave it at that, but you know we do we have to do I guess. That sums it up. Good editorial comment Michael. For the record we don't like the pandemic. That is that I'll second that. Okay, well, we've had we've had a good discussion about this and one of the things I want to emphasize is that we we agree that this is a this continues to be a temporary approach to our work that it is something we will stop doing in less circumstances change dramatically it's something that we will stop doing when we resume meeting in person. And that, even though sometimes it feels like it would be very easy to just make a decision on the spot we're going to for the sake of consistency we're going to keep discussing all applications making voting on all applications in deliberative session. So that there's no hemming and high about which which to vote in public on which not. Does that capture what we talked about. Okay. Very good. So, now with that, I'll accept a motion to adjourn but before I do that, I want to ask Meredith if she is going to send us a zoom link to the deliberative session. I did it 809 so people should check their emails and let me know if they did not get it abby especially because you seem to have problems getting my email though the last time it worked out okay. And of course I forgot to do a read receipt. Oh, I don't see anything. I don't either. Yeah, Meredith. I don't have it. It's just me. Not tonight. Not tonight it is. Weirdest thing. I did it is in my sent folder at 809 p.m. I don't have it. Not here. Sorry. I don't have it. Oh, man. Okay. Hold on. Can we just be on this? Um, yeah, it. That is so bizarre. Would you be willing to try again while we're on the line here? Oh, no, for sure. For sure. I'm going to open that back up. So, give me a minute. No problem. I'm going back into zoom. I'm glad we checked. Before we all hung up. Let me try it a different way. I'm going to try to invite you instead. And I'm just going to send it to all DRB members, whether you're here or not. I'll try this. You should be getting a calendar invite to your emails. Okay. Title DRB deliberative session. Unless, of course, like the city emails are all went down or something. In which case, I'll log into my personal email and send it to you. Yeah. If you prefer, you could also send it to just. Well, one of us. If you want to try and forward it. It's easier. Abby has vindicated. Not the only one missing out. All right. Give me a second. Cause I got a pull up case. Is there any other other business? I think the deliberative session is our other business. All right. Kate, I just sent it to you from my Gmail account. Okay. Let me take a second to refresh here. I sent it to your Gmail. There it is. Okay. So if you can forward it to everybody else, that would be great. Cause for some reason my work email is freaking out. Okay. Yeah. Something seems to be going on with that today. Yeah. The whole server when I was trying to get on to the documents. Right. Well, thank you for letting me know that I will make a note and reach out to our tech people tomorrow. So Kate, you got my email. I got an email from you at six 53. Yep. Yep. That was working. Yeah. All right. So that Abby, Roger, Meredith, Rob, Dean, Kevin, Michael. I forgetting someone. Okay. I'm going to send along this invitation. Let's confirm receipt and then we'll, we'll adjourn this meeting and move to the other. Okay. Let me know if that arrived. Not yet. I just got it from you, Kate. I got it. Are we good? Unfortunately, not I. It's okay. Okay. Let me try again. I could just walk up to your house and get a slip of paper that has just come in and walk back to my house. That'd be fine. Okay. It looks like I've got it. Okay. I've got the link. I'm going to try to load her, load her, load it up. Anybody who has gotten the link, you can get off of here and go get on the. I think I'm going to adjourn. We do need a motion to adjourn. I'm in trouble. Send it to my work or my personal. I sent it to your personal. I'll send it to your work. Okay. Good. Send it to work too. Okay. Here it comes to, to work. Okay. All right. Okay. Is there a motion to adjourn? Move. Motion by Rob. Second. Second by Roger. Call the roll. Roger. Yes. Abby. Yes. Kevin. Yes. Looks like Jean's already gone. Michael. Thanks. Rob. Yes. And I also vote to adjourn. The meeting is adjourned. See you in a deliberative session. Thank you.