 by Dale, this is Think Tech, where how many days we're several days into the Biden administration, you can feel things changing for the better. But we still have to, you know, we have to report on things. We have to watch things. We have to see how our society and our community are doing. And for this purpose, we talked to Roseanne Freitas every now and then from the Business Bureau and she tells us, you know, she's like got her hand on the pulse of how things are working in the business community and the consumer community, very important. So we're talking about scammers and COVID today. But before we do that, I want to just give an introduction to the BBB, the Better Business Bureau, by asking my friend, Alexa over here. Alexa, what is the Better Business Bureau? According to Wikipedia, the Better Business Bureau founded in 1912 is a private nonprofit organization whose self-described mission is to focus on advancing marketplace trust, consisting of 106 independently incorporated local BBB organizations in the United States and Canada, coordinated under the International Association of Better Business Bureau in Arlington, Virginia. Wow, I like that for an introduction. So with all of that, welcome to the show, Roseanne. Thanks so much, that's the first time I've had Alexa introduce me. That was nice. Well, I mean, I'm very troubled about, you know, the people taking advantage and making an opportunity and a really evil opportunity out of taking advantage of people about COVID and about the vaccines. I mean, we're so, all of us are so vulnerable. And I want to get a handle on, you know, what's happening, because you're going to have stats on that, you're going to have your complaints and be able to give us a kind of rundown about how this is affecting the community and what kind of parasites are coming out of the woodwork to do such things. I also want to say that I believe that during the four years of Donald J. Trump, somehow our moral fiber in the country was weakened. And somehow more people, it's a tipping point thing, more people can come out of the woodwork and feel that they can lie and they can deceive and they can do scams. And I suspect that if you took all of the BBB nationwide, you would find a kind of correlation between these scams and this past administration. But let's not dwell on that. Well, any thoughts on that? I should ask. Actually, at the Better Business Bureau, we are an independent third party, so we don't take any stats on politics. We get to stay out of that arena. Ours is about consumers and business. Okay, then we'll just leave it as my contributed opinion. So let's talk about the increase in scams. What kinds of scams are we having on COVID? What kinds of scams are these people thinking up on vaccines? Well, since COVID started, the scams and all of the fraudulent activity, most definitely has increased. And part of that is what we know about the psychology behind scams. And some of that has to do with they prey on our emotions. So that's how a scam works. Whether it's happiness, sadness, fear, all sorts of emotions, they play on those. And there has been nothing more emotional, I would say, than this pandemic between our fear for our health and our safety, but then the economic crisis on top of it. So you had so many layers of that. Then we go into a complete lockdown, and now people are isolated and they're lonely, another, again, emotion that they can take advantage of. And that's what we saw. And because of all of the answers that everybody was trying to do to help and assist people, they found new ways to even scan that. So let's talk about the latest one, and that is that vaccine that we have going out. Of course, we all see the news. We know that the vaccine is very well controlled, and each state has its processes. That won't stop the scammers. And what they're going to do is they, and we already seen it. I don't actually have the numbers for you, Jay. However, we are seeing different things every single day. Actually, the one that came in today was somebody on the mainland who received a call saying, we're going to pay you to get the vaccine. And we're going to jump you ahead in the line. Now, that's not the case. They're not going to pay you what they're trying to get is your personal information. So that's what we have to really educate people on. There's no one that can help you cut that line. No one is going to pay you to take the vaccine. You don't need to pay anyone else to take the vaccine. What you do need to do is look at the state guidelines. And the state of Hawaii has been very transparent on that. They are very straightforward. This is the guidelines. Here is who's getting the shot now. And they've put it in phases. And that part is really important to help us protect us from scams. But that won't stop the scammers. And they are going to keep reaching out, whether it's via a phone call or a text message or an email, trying to get people's money and personal identification information. I think my favorite one is where they ask you if you don't qualify because you're in the wrong tier, for example. And they know you're afraid. You're vulnerable. You're at home. You're isolated. Your nerves are raw, worrying about getting COVID. So now they're playing on that. They come and they say, I can get you a shot. I can get you. I have angles into the government. I can find corruption in the government or the public health system or the hospital, wherever it may be. And I can slide you in there. And all you have to do is what? Send me a check. How does that work? How are they going to take that money from you? Well, a lot of times they're still going to ask in the way that you can't track. So they're going to ask you to send gift cards or wire transfer them money or more important, just give them information. They're probably not going to ask for a check because that is, you know, traceable transaction credit cards they could ask for, but that also is traceable. And of course you can dispute that. So they're going to try different means where you can't trace that. I wouldn't be, I don't know this one. I haven't heard this one yet, Jay, but it wouldn't surprise me if people use cryptocurrency because we see that used a lot too. Oh, that's always very suspicious when they ask for cryptocurrency or wiring funds where you have to put the cash down and it's an irreversible transaction. It's very, very bad. And the reality is no one is going to be able to buy you to the front of the line. So you are going to have to go through the proper channels. And it is the right thing to do. These channels are set up for what's best for our current situation and those that are at higher risk getting that vaccine first. Yeah. And the, you know, the organizations that are offering the vaccines here are not inflexible. I mean, until recently they were allowing you to bring your companion or your driver or your caregiver around. And they would be, you know, my observation, they would be very flexible about that. It's not that they were putting bureaucratic, you know, walls in front of you. They were just trying to follow the tier system as best they could within reason and with a certain care and kindness. So, you know, this isn't an Eastern European hard notice bureaucracy here. This is Hawaii where people are basically friendly in Aloha. And if you tap into the vaccine system as it exists here, it's friendly in Aloha. It's quite good. I mean, we have excelled in the way we handle our neighbors in that system. So somebody comes around and says, I'm going to break that system anyway. You know, they're making you afraid that the system is really tougher, you know, and more brick wall than it is. So you have to be very suspicious of that. But as you say, a lot of people living alone are vulnerable. They're paranoid over getting the disease and dying over it. So they're great targets. Exactly. And you mentioned, you know, we do have the Aloha here. And, you know, everything I'm hearing from people who have gotten the shot is that the state and the hospitals right now are running that very smoothly, that it is a really smooth process going in. They are keeping people social distancing, even with all those people, they're getting the vaccine, but it's very well organized and very well run. So I just think we need to understand that they are doing a great job out there. Our turn, whenever it's your turn, it'll be your turn. And they're hoping by summer to have the whole vaccine rolled out. It's not that far away. Not quite. I mean, they could still have the supply line problem. And that's, we're gonna see how that plays out next few weeks. But you know, if you examine this as a scam, as a study in scams, you know, call it a case study in scams. And you mentioned earlier that, you know, let's be careful about, let's assume the scam is semi-money, I'll get you in the line. That, you know, to me, that's a pretty good scam because people are vulnerable for that. So what are the telltale signs? I mean, one is this person is approaching you by telephone or email or something out of the blue. You don't know this person. If he pretends to have a connection with a health organization, it's going to be flimsy. And if he tells you they got to send the money by some very unusual technique of sending him money, that's also flimsy. So tell us the telltale signs that a, you know, that a sentient person who's not really in fear of life, you know, who's rational, would be able to see and act on. Well, Liza, you've gotten a call or some sort of connection unsolicited. That right there, somebody reaches out to you that you didn't initiate the connection. I'm always nervous. Why are you calling me? How do you have my information? And while you can't just go by the assumption, they're asking for money. Obviously, if they're asking for money for the COVID, that right there is the telltale sign. However, if they start to ask you for your personal information, your name, your address, your birthday, you've got to put up a bit of a red flag on that because as valuable as cash is, so is our personal information because cash is a one-time thing. But personal information, they can actually fill your identity and start opening accounts in your name. So that really has really long-term effects to everybody. So the key is if that person called you, first of all, ask a lot of questions. Who are you? Why are you calling me? And I really do not see that right now people are getting called to come take that vaccine. You know, we're seeing it online, they're asking you to register. So you need to know what that proper protocol is to get that. I've been with all the interviews I've been doing on this subject. I really recommend people reach out to their doctor because your doctor is going to be able to tell you where you stand in that line and give you the best information, especially whether you should or shouldn't take the vaccine depending on your own health issues. So again, just reach to the people you know and trust. Check the state of Hawaii and that timeline. But also talk to your doctor and don't take that information from a random person over the phone or if somebody messages you on social media. We see that a lot of a friend will message us to say, oh, I got this great deal. And they may say that, hey, this way to get the vaccine early, but you don't know if that friend's account has been hacked. And that's what we're seeing is a lot of people's social media accounts hacked. So when in doubt, pick up the phone, call your friend and make sure you ask them a lot of questions as well. Yeah, I want to visit that with you for a minute. So, okay, so you listen to Roseanne on this show and you say, I think I'll ask a lot of questions. So there are telltale signs in the way the individual answers the questions. What should you be looking for when you ask multiple, you know, questions? What happens is they start to get upset that you're questioning their authority because they don't want you to question it because they know that it will start to unravel. So from there, they get a little hostile towards you. And then they might even start to threaten you that, hey, well, if you're going to be this way, I'm not going to put you on the list, you're not going to get the vaccine, you'll know they will try all sorts of different techniques to scare you or make you think you're missing out on something. And anytime somebody is pushing at you like that to one, make a really quick, fast answer, right? You want to be super nervous because there's no need to be so quick on this. It's not an emergency. As I tell my children, unless blood or death are involved, it's not does not constitute an emergency, right? So you should have time to think it through. And so when they push at you and they try to use fear and intimidation, that is a risk. How about the technique of say, look, you know, I'm a little tied up now. I got to have a bagel right now. Can I call you back in a few minutes? What was your telephone number again? What about that technique? Well, that's going to be good, but here's the key. If you ask them for the phone number, they may give it to you, but don't call that number back because sometimes they'll do that. They'll give you that information. And they're on the other end of that phone, right? So a lot of times if they're impersonating an organization, and we've seen that on sorts, all sorts of things, whether it's the IRS or whatever, they will impersonate them. I usually will say, you know what, let me call you back. You called me, I didn't call you. So let me call you back. And I will verify all this. And if it's a legitimate business, they're not going to have an issue. They understand security. But if it's a fraud, they're going to be so upset that you want to do that. And they're going to really want to give you that phone number and just say, no, I know the phone number. I'll call it myself. And usually you'll start from what I've heard from people who also have this done to them. They may start cussing you out. They may all of a sudden really show their true colors. So again, it's really not just believing everything you hear on the other end of the phone or the email or the text. Just because they say the CDC or the hospital, it doesn't mean they are. You know, it's almost like, it's almost fun to see if you can bust them. You know, like when they get angry, you know you got your man. You know you found him out. Or my favorite one is when you ask a question that they can't answer, and they just hang up on you. Now, you found him right there. Exactly. So you've busted them. But we usually tell people don't it's really best not to engage because I've had some people tell me, oh, I love to keep them on the line and tie them up. And I can understand that there's some fun in that. However, we always say best thing to do is not answer, don't engage with them. Because once they engage with you, they know you'll engage again. And they're hoping that one day they'll catch you on that off day. And we all have off days. And so that's why it's just best never to engage from the start. Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. I think you know, the good news about the scan that we're talking about, I'll send you a place in line. The probability is you won't have a place in line through them. And you won't be going to a place where they inject red dye number two into your arm, you know, and hurt you. It just won't happen at all. It's illusory at best. So that's kind of good news. Even if you pay what they want, you're not going to get a false injection anyway. Let me turn the cards around. Let me turn the cards around, though, because I think this is actually the most important part of our discussion. I mean, just academically, philosophically, to try to figure out the human condition here. You know, I have a theory about Mr. Potato Man. And when you're, when you're looking across the media, whether it be, you know, on video or radio or a telephone, you always have to kind of imagine who's there, who's on the other side. If you don't know him, you have to have a picture of him in your mind. And you have to, you have to draw it out of the Mr. Potato Man game from years ago, with the eyes and the mouse and everything. You have to see this individual so that you can, you know, actively appreciate him or her. So my question is, who is Mr. Potato Man over there? Who's doing this? Can you describe a profile of somebody who would, who would take advantage like this? It's really doing awful evil things. Who would do this? Well, I know that during COVID-19, some of the scams that we saw, especially those with the unemployment checks, they were done by an international crime ring, not located here in the United States. So we, we do know that there are these organizers that do target us. And they're not necessarily in the US. That's not to say we don't have some things like that in the United States. We do. However, a lot of these are professional. That is exactly why they're getting, you know, targeted is, and that's working is these people know what they're doing and they're masterminds and they're professionals at dwindling people. And so it is, that Mr. Potato Head is not who he said, or she said they are, but they're the master disguise and the master of manipulation. And so, I mean, I know there are places where you can actually go to school for this, you know, school for scoundrels, school for scammers. Okay. So now I'm a real pro and, you know, you can't get a beat on me because I pretend to be somebody else. I give you, you know, a Mr. Potato Man that's completely unreal. It's a deception. Okay. Now I get information from you a little bit, just a little bit before you hang up on me or you ask me a question that stumps the chump. What then? They keep that information. I imagine if this is a, you know, a collaborative effort, a group effort, if you will, where these guys are just working scams, they're going to have other scams. It's not a scam limited to COVID. It's not a scam limited to vaccines. It's any number of scams. So you'll be on the blackboard for this one, but you'll also be on the blackboard for that one before you know it, you know, you'll hear again. Am I right? Exactly. Once they have you on a list, you become targeted more and in different ways. It's not the same scam over and over. They can target you in so many different ways. We saw, even through COVID-19, that romance scam that we're so used to seeing that increase because one people were lonely. And they use those victims to help move their money. But they also target those same people for the same scams everybody else's. So whether it's the romance scam, it's anything to do with COVID-19, PPE, stimulus, money, vaccine, you name it. If they can find a way to scam you, they're going to and they know. One, if you follow it for once, you'll probably follow it for twice. And if you've picked up the phone and made a connection with them, they know at some point they will wear you down. You know, in my life, however narrow it may be, I get anonymous calls from undisclosed callers every day, maybe five times a day, every single day. Yes, what I usually do is I just listen. I don't say hello when it says anonymous caller. I just listen. And what happens usually after about 20, 30 seconds, it hangs up. An honest person would say, hello, Jay? Jay? But they don't say that. They just hang up. They figure it's a dead end or it's a machine. That's another. I'm sure the machine is playing all of this to catch you like a fish hook. But here's the thing. We do know, like we do know a lot about cyberterrorism and cybersecurity, we do know what the industry out there is like. And we do know that there are these rooms with the blackboards and people trading off marks, one to the other, and using various kinds of scams over and over again and characterizing them and using databases and putting their characteristics and variables in the database. So we know when to go back and how to go back and what they might be vulnerable. But what about the authorities? For example, the authorities doing anything to stop them, anything at all? Sometimes it feels like they aren't however they are. And you see it. A lot of times, I will get the information where the FBI has tracked down some of these current criminals and they do try to prosecute them. Also, sometimes if they're in a foreign country we can't access, that makes that far more difficult. They do catch them. However, you catch one and as soon as you're catching one, you've got five to 10 more right popping right back up behind them. So part of that is not just catching them, it's stopping them. And that's where they have to look to us, the consumer, and to say, okay, we have to help prevent this from happening to us. Yeah, I know it shouldn't be that way. We shouldn't have to be the only one protecting ourselves and technically we're not. We're getting that information out. However, it is, it's hard to keep up with all of the new ones that come up and go on. And that is something they try. But yeah, you're right. It is really tough to keep up with the scams, with the scammers, with the con artists, and with everything that's going on. But they are trying. Yeah. Well, our system of justice is, you know, it's not really, it's not really organized for this sort of thing. So I suppose you catch them. It's very hard to show how many people he was ripping off. Very hard to show damage, very hard to show that he's as much a criminal as he really is. What are you going to do? He's overseas. You're going to get him into an American court. You're going to get him into a Hungarian court. How do you do that? And who's going to put the bill for an international, a global effort to drag this guy into court and prosecute him and then have a jury sit? And, you know, it's very hard to do that. So it's not our system, globally, not only the US. Our system isn't really made for this. And the solution I suggest to you, and I want to share this, is not necessarily in the courts. It's in the technology. For example, you know, we have the First Amendment. And this is the whole issue going on with the internet now about, you know, the social media repeating things that are, you know, they're bullying or threatening, you know, inciting violence, what have you. And there's an elegant little solution which Congress has not done. And the elegant little solution is that the Facebook of the world are liable. They become liable for claims by somebody who's been ripped off or bullied or threatened, you know, through the Facebook system. That's all you got to do. It's a little, tiny little thing changes the world. All of a sudden, you have, you know, 300 million Americans who have a real claim against the real defendant. Facebook is going to be very, very, very careful. It doesn't require regulation, just a liability, a new way of doing liability. It'll change everything. So I'm saying maybe the same kind of approach exists here on the scammers. Maybe it's some little, tiny, elegant little thing like you can't make a call. And we do have the technology. You can't make a call on any carrier, any cell carrier, for example, that's operating in your area without we knowing who you are. You have to show your number on my dial, you know, and maybe make a record in my phone database about the fact that you called me at 2.201, you know, the afternoon. And so now that may not stop all of them. I mean, as you say, and you can switch phones, you can get a throwaway phone on it, but you have some control over it. It isn't a, you know, restricted number. And maybe there's some little elegance thing that's possible through the technology. Well, I think the thing, technology is a blessing and a curse all at the same time. And the challenge for everybody, doesn't matter how big your company is or how small, is keeping up with it. And even for the experts in the field, it's also keeping up with that technology and what's coming. I know with the numbers, a lot of times they can spoof them now. And, you know, now you've got to find that technology that shows, okay, this is a spoofed number. So for everybody in that industry, which is why cybersecurity is an up-and-coming field, is staying at top of that technology. So you can stay on top of those criminals who are doing the bad things. So yes, it is. You're being more reactive. I believe they are doing preventive ways, but then they find sneak around. It's a hard answer. I don't know if there's such a very simple answer, Jay. That is why I do what I do and what a lot of people do, and that is educate. Because I know if I can at least educate people, hopefully they won't fall for this. Hopefully they'll have that mindset to question and say, no, this isn't going to happen. I think it would be great if they could find a way to stop it. But until they do, we just need to make sure we keep our garden. Well, you know, it strikes me that the Better Business Bureau is a great spot to get the complaints to hear about the scenarios. It's not just a raw complaint. It's the scenarios. This is the MO that these people follow. Just a minute. I've got my little technology going over here. And by doing that, you can warn us better. You can post it and distribute information about it or make it available. But the other thing is you, and going back to my Alexa definition, stop Alexa. No, stop Alexa. You can keep a national or even international database of these cases and scenarios and even maybe even the scammers and the spoofers and the like, so that when I call you, I can get content. I can get real data about what's out there and whether I'm on somebody's list. And I can develop intelligence by tapping into what you know about what's going on, right? Well, a lot of what we do and a lot of the data that we share, we share with the Federal Trade Commission. Because a lot of people wonder what we do with the data that we get. We don't just keep it to ourselves. We do actually share that information with the Federal Trade Commission. It's not necessarily everybody's name and number, however the scams that we're seeing. And that allows them to have that data so that when they do catch these criminals, this is evidence that they can use to help prosecute. It's not a simple, easy thing to do. We do track that information. Of course, we have to rely on people reporting it to us. So that's probably would be my big ask out of your your viewers is report that information to us. That is the only way reported to you. How do I report it? You can go you can go a couple of ways. Probably the best is to go online, especially for all this tech savvy, right? Go to bbb.org scam tracker and you can fill out the form and it will just walk you through that system and report it. If you don't feel comfortable using the online, you can actually call one of our customer service reps and they will actually take in that information. So there's a lot of different ways you can report it to us. You can also report it to the Federal Trade Commission as well directly. So again, it's just staying on top of that. And sorry for my dog barking, Jay, during our interview. This is our new working from home interviews these days. Let me ask you one more question before we go, Rosanne. I always enjoy our discussions. I learn a lot from you. You know, we know that we're in COVID for a while. You keep hearing news stories about, you know, the vaccine may or may not, you know, flatten the curve. It may not get us out of the pandemic anytime soon. You got to do it, of course, but it's not necessarily going to save the world, sorry. So the question is, what's the dynamic on this? You know, it seems to me that a lot of people who started out a year ago as potential scammers, something in their life or personality, something in the way they, you know, their mind works. They weren't scammers before, but they saw the opportunity. They got into it. Nobody stopped them. Maybe they made a few bucks and they did it more. They refined, they perfected, they joined forces with other collaborating scammers. And before you know it, you know, this is my guess. So I'm asking, really, are we seeing a dynamic here? Is this increasing and will it increase going forward? Well, we know there was an increase during COVID. Whether that increase was related to people jumping into it, I hadn't done it before. I couldn't tell you that. I do see that there was far more opportunity and more fear, which is what they need to pull off the scam. And that could have just been the people already in the loop doing it. They have far more opportunity and they took advantage of that. As far as people jumping into the scamming world, it's a possibility. However, I don't have any direct correlation to tell you that because of COVID-19, more people started scamming. But I can tell you that people were scammed more during COVID-19. You know, I don't know if this exists. Maybe you too. If there was a book on this, you know, like we see, you know, in Amazon and the New York Times, we see all these books coming out about what's going on. Always open your eyes a little wider about things that are very now, you know, happened last week in a book. You know, if anybody wrote a book about this and sort of tracked on it and gave us the scenarios and the personality types and the tricks and the way of dealing with it, you know, and the global effect of it, that would be an interesting book to be a bestseller. I think it would, actually, as COVID continued and the stories kept coming in daily into my inbox, I felt like it was a Hollywood movie. Like I was maybe reading a mystery novel or a Hollywood movie. It really seemed strange that it was real happening. And I think that, I think to make a great book, I'm probably a great movie. The sad thing is it's the real thing and people are losing a lot of money. That's the fact. People who cannot afford to lose money losing money. And that's the social injustice of all of this. And that's why we have to talk about it and then take steps about it and stop it somehow, whether by, you know, legal things or electronic things or just making people aware. Thank you so much, Rosanne. Great to talk to you. I hope we can do it again soon. Of course, Jay. I love my interviews with you, too. Rosanne Freitas, the Better Business Bureau, saving us, protecting us. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jay.