 if we make a difference locally, we can see that difference. And one of the big issues we have with the with the climate crisis and the social crisis, particularly climate, is that there are no immediate feedback loops, you know, so I go out and recycle every day, climate change is still happening, you know, that you can't see how you're making a difference. So there's something really interesting. It's almost like we're being forced down a different route as entrepreneurs, I would argue, that is very exciting and that leads to this idea of a regenerative society or economy. Louise Keller-Up Roper is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media Innovators Magazine and sponsored by the Aloha's Regenerative Foundation. Louise is the CEO of Volens. She leads the team and is responsible for Volens entire mission, programs and strategy and ensuring Volens has the biggest possible positive impact through what we do and how they work with anyone everywhere. After leaving her native Denmark to study PPE at the University of Oxford, Louise started her career with leading-edge software companies such as Cisco and Checkpoint Software Technologies before focusing in on the role of business for good, launching cradle-to-cradle and B-Lab pioneering companies like Method and G-Dipers into Europe and bringing circular economy business models and scale to ambitious small businesses. Louise is a guest lecturer at both Cranfield University and the University of Exeter and part of the Ellen MacArthur Foundation's CE100 network. She also mentors young change makers via the Aspire Foundation and the Aspire Trailblazing Women's Network. Now with cradle-to-cradle, that's William McDonough, Bill McDonough, one of my good friends, my mentors. He's also an architect on one of my projects and his companies and it happened to be that Michele Browngart is actually at the Leuphana University here in Hamburg where I live and so it's wonderful to see your connections to those and I'm sure there's a lot of cross-cutting friends and acquaintances that we have over the years. But Louise, welcome to the show. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you, Mark. It's really good to be here. It took a little while to organize, huh? But yeah, no, it's great to be here and actually as you're reading that out, the cradle-to-cradle piece has been really important and I sometimes think we don't talk about Michael and Bill enough because they've really created a systems change that I don't think anybody had anticipated by, you know, with the book, with the movement and then, as Mike would say, letting the anarchy begin and letting people own it and push it out into the world. I think there are amazing leaders in systems change really. Absolutely, they are and it's crazy what a small world we find ourselves in. A lot of cross-cutting acquaintances and people that we work with, these sustainability movements, these circular economy movements are, believe it or not, pretty small, even though it sounds, you know, world-changing, very large movements, they're actually pretty small groups and everybody's kind of connected. And we're just trying to get the word out of there. How, with your involvement with Ellen MacArthur Foundation and CE 100, Bill McDonough basically kind of led the way on the whole circular economy. I mean, cradle-to-cradle is very circular in concept and I think a lot of that came with that. How was that going? How have you found that development and why do you think we're not talking about us enough? So, oh, so yes, absolutely cradle-to-cradle was the foundation of circular economy and I think the Ellen MacArthur Foundation did a great job of saying, oh, we can take this and actually commercialize it a little bit more and make it understandable and create a network of companies that could learn about this, which is, which I was really lucky to be involved in quite early when they started. And I don't think we're talking about it enough because it's complicated and because there is in this very small community really of change makers and sustainability type people like you and I, there is a hesitancy sometimes to push an agenda onto normal conversations and to start explaining, oh, this is a circular economy. People say, well, you mean recycling then. It's almost the first ever, you know, well, no. Circular means that you are designing something with a systems lens so that it can be reused. But yeah, I'm amazed at how many intelligent people who are not in this space don't really talk about it or know what it is. So I think there's still a huge job of communicating. I think the last time I heard from Andrew at the EMF, he said that about less than 10% of the economy worldwide is still circular. So we've got a little while to go. I'm glad that. They've got a long while. They just came out with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, just came out with Circulatics. It's kind of an analytic system and I've had a couple of great people from them on as well talking about this. So there's constantly new reports, new data analytics and tools that are out there to spread the world. But I'm finding the exact same thing. We're not talking about enough. There's not enough understanding. I advise a company, a couple of companies out of Israel, but they really want to take care of all their scope. One, two, and three, take care of their reporting. They want to do recycling. They want to make sure that they as an organization are structured in a way that's good. There's no recycling in all of Israel. It's all cradle to grave. I'm running into this more and more. The reason I'm bringing up, I kind of want to see how you're running it. You guys advise numerous companies out there that we have these great innovators, these great startups, great companies that really want to start out on the very first foot or the beginning of what they do in a very sustainable, environmentally friendly way. They come up with super innovations, but now as they go to scale and get to market and apply those, they're realizing that an infrastructure is not even there. The policy, the laws, the labeling, the infrastructure to get it to scale or to kind of convert it. That's not even there. And now they're having to be lawmakers, policymakers. They have to create the infrastructure. They have to create the recycling system in their whole community. I mean, the same company as well. They had to create a whole bus type of electric bus system just for transport to kind of have a sustainable way to get to work and back. That's exactly it. Exactly. And funnily enough, what you're describing is actually the reason why I went from working with two, so cradle to cradle, product companies, so method products, so the soaps and so on. And one of the issues we had when we introduced the refills for the laundry detergent into Europe was it wasn't recyclable, the stuff in the system, in the European system. So had to create our own, literally our own way of getting the materials back. And then what were we going to do with them? And that is seriously the story that took me from cradle to cradle into circular economy, because it was so obvious. You had to think about the whole system. And similarly with G-dipers, diapers, nappies that compost in the soil within three months, most nappies never disappear because they're full of plastic. Yeah, so you could in theory put them in, I live in London, so you could put them in the food recycling bin and they would actually be good for the composting there. But I couldn't, and I couldn't convince the council to allow that to happen because of the risk of contamination. So that means you have these beautiful products invented that are just as bad, let's be honest, or close to as bad for the environment effectively because there's no system to make use of the attributes, the cradle to cradle attributes or the circular potential. And so it means that entrepreneurs now, I think there has been a huge shift from, oh, you can create this and isn't it great and rely on policy, etc., to having to think differently about scale and think, well maybe if I could in this area, get a local change in the policy or convince or whatever, work with a local ecosystem to make something work, whether it's recycling or something else that can make the product perform at its best for the world. So you have to do that locally and then replicate rather than think, oh yeah, we're going to just scale this up, which has been this model for years and years. If you're a startup, what you need to do is scale as fast as you can and sell. That has been the model. So it's interesting and in a way it's a different challenge for entrepreneurs, but it's also, there's something really good about it because that is where we have to go. We have to stop thinking that everything is about efficiency and scale and look at quality and use the word proximity the other day, which I love. We have to think about the proximity of our products to the local community, to the local environment and we can then overcome a different problem for climate change and social change, which is we get much better feedback loops. If we make a difference locally, we can see that difference and one of the big issues we have with the climate crisis and the social crisis, particularly climate, is that there are no immediate feedback loops. So I go out and I recycle every day, climate change is still happening. You can't see how you're making a difference. So there's something really interesting. It's almost like we're being forced down a different route as entrepreneurs. I would argue that that is very exciting and that leads to this idea of a regenerative society or economy, which is what we at Volans are working for all the time is trying to nudge those conditions in the right direction. I agree. We don't see those feedback loops quick enough. But what we do see if the products are done right is that it doesn't go cradle to grave. You never see your products in the graveyard or in the landfill or somewhere laying on a curb or in the oceans or somewhere where it comes back because you've pre-thought of that where's it going? Where's it going to end up? How's it going to come back to me? How can we keep it in that technical cycle or that organic cycle and keep it in kind of a closed system? Now, I feel in some respects for those who maybe are unaware of Volans that we might have gotten ahead of ourselves and I have to caveat even though we know each other, maybe there are some listeners that are out there who are like Volans and Cradle to Cradle and Ellen MacArthur and what is it? You are the CEO of Volans and which is affiliated with John Elkington. It's an organization that really has regenerators. It's really advising businesses and everyone that you could probably tell us better than I can to push transformations, to push training, education, to get people thinking about the topics that we've already jumped into in advance, to prepare them to be better businesses for good, to prepare them to think of a lot of things and it's really a lot under the guise of this is one of John's latest books, Green Swans, where he talks about the recall of the triple bottom line which he did in 2018 which was a 25-year process or was around for 25 years before he recalled it and so I want you to tell us a little bit more about Volans and about that mission, a little bit about the regenerators and then I want to go in to this recall in 2018 of the triple bottom line and kind of go a little bit more because with a recall there should always be something that replaces or fixes that recall, a little bit more history there. Okay, I can do that. It's all beautifully linked. Thank you. So yes, Volans, I'm the CEO. I joined in 2017, so five years ago. It was founded by John in 2008 and a couple of his colleagues from his old company Sustainability as well as someone who was very senior at the World Economic Forum and the Schwalck Foundation, Pamela. So they founded it and we still have to large degree the same mission which is about catalyzing systemic change. The way we do that tends to be through businesses. We work with other organizations and straight businesses but mostly through business and we do two things. One is we have a sort of think tank work stream which tries to look further into the future than any sensible business should to look at what's coming and start thinking about that which is always interesting. So we had fun with, did a big piece for the World Business Council for Sustainable Development which came out October 2019 which was 10 big disruptors. One, economic crisis, two, risk of war, three, global pandemic, etc, etc. So those kinds of things. Not very, very deep research but synthesizing and looking at disruptions and what's coming trends and then the other piece which is closely linked they're not separate at all is we then work with ambitious businesses to help them think through what that means and get on the front foot in their personal transfer or sort of organizational transformation to create the system that's needed for them both to be successful but more than that to have a world that's going to exist for further generations. So that's the whole piece of it. It sort of links together so the work we do, we test it with clients, some of our thinking, we learn from doing things in practice and then we feed it back. I always say that we have three kind of pillars. One is we're always based on research and insight. Secondly our approach and I think that's what distinguishes us from others is very creative and very focused on humans, on unlocking the insights that are within an organization and really we've got some fantastic tools and processes we run with which are fun. And then the third piece is that we try and be really practical in our application. So we do do books, we do reports and so on but really most of the work is kind of under the radar in that it's practical work for organizations and there's a lot of it. My thesis has been for a few years that every single company, however good it looks on the outside, is in need of a bigger transformation that we can even imagine, even volans, even though I've set it up to create a regenerative conditions for my team and for our clients. There is transformation needed across the board. So it's quite fun and we have to pick very carefully. We're very small, we're based in London but we work globally so we try and pick things that have that potential for systemic change that is regenerative and that it's people that we can work with and we really like. We're always surprised if you're like well surely you have clients you don't like and we really don't. I genuinely think they're all marvelous people because we can't do this difficult work and look into the future and take a whole organization with us if there isn't mutual respect, trust and fun. Climes are too tough to not have fun at work, it would be my view. That's absolutely beautiful and I know you guys have, I mean before we get to the triple bottom line and kind of that, you guys have really worked with the who's who's of organizations and you, although we spoke before and you said you know I haven't read that book or haven't read that, you guys read a lot and you read a lot of reports you're involved in a lot of front running things. I know John just had not too long ago a podcast with the founder Panagonia and wow the new announcement that just came out there was amazing things and so and I could go on and on you have a fellow Daniel Christian Wall designing regenerative cultures and he's now a part of the fellow of you guys and the other accolade that I really have to mention is that you guys received the B Corp Best for the World Governance Recognition which is not only do you do the work, you have the podcast, you're connected, but you're also receiving the accolades and the recognition as being a front runner in the thought leaders and the distinct tank movement of what's going on and John has been doing this a long time and has made it, hopefully has made it a little bit easier the path that has went there to set up everything and his connections in that, but it's just trying to get humanity on the right side of history and businesses especially what can we do and so I just am astounded every time I see what you guys are doing and who's there and we'll talk a little bit more about that but it's all kind of led up to this thought leader, this front runner in the triple bottom line that in in 2018 was recalled and I know that you have a strategy or a plan that was there and I found it but I think some others might be hard pressed to have seen that in the past. Yeah, no, we haven't actually published that much in detail on it, it's mentioned in John's book from 2020, the Green Swans book but really it all came out of inquiry, one of these thought leadership projects we took on which we were lucky enough to get sponsored by Unilever, Aviva, the Body Shop, Kvestro and a couple of others and the question we asked ourselves was what will it take for businesses to catalyze systemic change? How can a business become a catalyst and there were lots of conclusions and I can touch on some of them and one of the things that we as we dug into this because John had coined this term the triple bottom line people, planet and profit 25 or 24 years actually earlier when we started the project, we also looked at that because that has been and now it's sort of reflected in the ESGPs right, environmental, social and governance, you and the triple bottom line had set off this movement within sustainability around reporting on the impact not just profit but reporting on social impact, reporting on environmental impact and that was all great but when we looked at it as a tool for catalyzing bigger systemic change which is what's needed now, it wasn't really doing what it should have done, what you know John had intended it to do, it was being traded off people saying yeah yeah we'll have profit and then we won't do any harm to the environment but we'll really focus on our social aspect or sort of rather than looking at it as three things that really must work together and and so partly and this you know it signals some of the playfulness I guess that we have in our work this recall came out we and through the Harvard Business Review there was an article where John said well I'm going to try and do a product recall because this isn't working for the world let's take it back and and it was astounding the the response actually I saw one woman who heard it live in a conference started crying because she built her whole life and her whole career around the triple bottom line and people plan a profit and there was a shock and John well how could you do this but really what we discovered was that there's nothing wrong with the triple bottom line as a systemic tool but you have to use it in a bigger way than how it was being used and maybe I can explain so we now talk about it as it has highlighting the three Rs the three Rs are responsibility resilience and regeneration and and most companies really have focused on being responsible being good companies and they're the ones who've used the triple bottom line well you know minimizing negative impact is how it had been used which is great and it's great we have so much more data and transparency from businesses than we had 30 years ago before the triple bottom line came into play in all the reporting you know we've now got so many EU directives and US laws now and in the UK the same that are pushing reporting and pushing this transparency so we can make real choices which we didn't have before so it's great responsibility is fine however it doesn't as we've seen and we saw strongly it was interesting strongly during COVID and the whole pandemic and now in this crisis it doesn't make you for a resilient company because we've we might have just slowed down the damage we've done both to society and the environment by treating the triple bottom line in that way and and actually reminds me of a quote from now we talked about cradle to cradle the cradle to cradle book opens with a quote about sustainability um not being good enough because you're just slowing down your drive to the cliff edge of the world and basically just try you're still heading in the wrong direction you're just going slower exactly that and and it was a little bit of that and responsibilities a bit like that you know we'll just slow it down and we'll do better than we did last year and really good companies would you know pick up on like the future fit foundations benchmark and say oh we're not benchmarking against our industry or ourselves we're benchmarking against the future and yet still too slow let's be honest and then so when you then look at okay so we're going to be resilient so resilient the mindset of that really is let's then protect ourselves against these awful climate or social disasters let's have a great diversity policy or or you know or a um let's onshore our supply chain so we're not so affected by what's going on with if Asia burns or you know that that's the resilience mindset it's still this mindset that companies and business and and humans are in one place and then we're we've got an external nature an external environmental biosphere an external society and the resilience has the same output but it's trying to just protect ourselves so not do less damage to the whether that's the responsibility then you've got the resilience and I see them by the way stacked so that you have to have one and then the other the only way we discovered through our work to really be have a resilient business um is to shift that mindset and to look for regeneration and the reason why that's a different a qualitatively different mindset is you are accepting that you are part of the system that the business the organization the human beings are part of environment and part of society it's not something external that that you can can damage or not damage because if that is damaged you are damaged and and and so so so we then really started digging into this what does that mean that regenerative peace um and and really it means that the financial we've come back to the to the profit the value creation under the line of profit has to be directly and inextricably linked to the value creation for the environmental system and the social system um not oh I'm gonna you know buy one pair of shoes and I'm gonna buy some shoes for somebody in Africa that's not an inextricable link um your business models have to be set up so that the systems win and everybody you know and and you win and that's really different so so that for me um and for for our clients has been a real really interesting play um because it's still hard we are so used to seeing externalities to seeing this outside businesses here we've got some stakeholders out there somewhere and we can be nice to them or not um breaking that open and seeing seeing businesses within a system is very very different so those are the three Rs I hope that was a clear enough perfect yeah um but there's been a little bit more progress as well so there's some other things that you've done in this true transformation that's also going on at the same time can you tell us a little bit more about it yeah yeah so just um so I guess so once you start there then you say okay so so regeneration is creating the conditions for the system to flourish for life to flourish actually um and and and how do you then transform um what does that mean for a company how do how do you transform for that so we've been working with um some really wonderful very ambitious companies for example the Spanish Athena which is an infrastructure company they do everything from build um water sanitation plants to um the Sao Paulo metro you know really big things um energy systems and so on and they've really um they have taken this on board and said okay so how do we do this and all their former sustainability targets you know they've gone okay so what does this look like with a regenerative lens as well as a responsibility and a resilient sense what does it mean for diversity and inclusion because if we say that the let's say that the gender balance is 50-50 on a on the management that's responsible but what does that mean how do you do that regeneratively what what's the difference here so they've really helped them dig into some of those things which are super interesting because the regenerative angle of course is how do you continue to feed so that never stops being an equal gender balance for example but more interestingly and that's um I think what um what you know I spoke about previously was they are looking at their projects so saying okay instead of taking an order or being part of a tender that says let's build this bridge and and and those tenders from a local authority tend to be the speed the quality the price and and you know more and more maybe a little bit about the carbon emissions but but not many other criteria are set up so what does it look like if you want to have that as a as a regenerative project well that means you look at the context of that local area and you're saying well what do the what does the population need what's the demographic what is the biodiversity needs what's the financial needs and jobs for those people and what is that going to be in 10 years so we had a fun one that was a bridge which was you know if you put a bridge in this this town in Spain and then that's all fine but Spain is going to probably be 10 degrees hotter in 10 years so if you put more traffic um cars um and even if you have EVs actually most of the pollution comes from the tyres not the not just the the tailpipe if you have that combined with heat and 10 degrees hotter you're creating a real health risk for that population so obviously you have to look at that system in a completely different way than responding to a tender and that's what some company like Athena that's what I get excited about because then they're they're taking that responsibility comes back to the entrepreneur right they're taking the responsibility and saying let's have the bigger conversation with three of the silos in the local authority the health as well as the the planning department um and let's let's take that long term view and that broader umbrella anyway that so those kind of projects we're doing for some really interesting companies around the world which is it's great fun I don't know if you've run into this but I run into it all the time it's very difficult when you you have a company like that who's now coming up with a great solution for the the bridge of the future or what does the that that crossing crossing the river or a waterway look like for the future that now they've come up with a very regenerative very resilient solution but they are involving three or four ministries a ministry of energy the ministry of transportation the ministry you know and and so in that process they go to the ministry of transportation we've got this great thing we're thinking about the future but we also need to involve the ministry of health or the ministry of air quality or environment there and they're like oh no no that's transportation stay with transportation none of those infrastructures and this is what we talked about earlier is none of those ministries are on the same page they're not communicating with each other they're not sharing monies they're not sharing that vision for the future and they don't have no have a unified operating system to to communicate so this is where the stifle comes in with these organizations they have this beautiful things very regenerative very resilient future thinking and they get caught up in this bureaucratic trap almost to to move forward what are you seeing policy wise what are you seeing to help with organizations is that when we talked about it as well earlier and I wanted to kind of mention that is that where even though we're creating these regional local projects or businesses that are coming up with these things is that where they can then go to a big organization like us uh Ellen MacArthur Foundation or to Cradle to Cradle or to the B Corp or something say hey I want to do this I'm dealing with it locally but now look at I've got this big infrastructure big system can you help yeah what are you seeing so so I'm not seeing that because I don't think um at at this point um I am seeing what you as in I'm not seeing what they're that they're going to to those organizations what I'm seeing which is really interesting is that actually this is where finance comes in finance and policy in my mind um what I'm seeing is that funding this and wrapping it becomes essential so one of the things we've actually done as a spin-off of this project with Athena is create a not just a playbook for the Athena new business guys of how to have different conversations about regeneration but a kind of toolkit or workshop um sort of for development banks because a lot of this stuff is actually within the remit of development banks so to help them understand how do they um how do they navigate these local things how do they make sure that they could fund truly regenerative systems projects in a different way I think I think that's one of the keys um the other piece that I'm going to jump to a Scottish project we've been working on actually in the Levenmouth um so Levenmouth is a place in Scotland where um which is terribly deprived in all ways um with jobs education the environment and so on and the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency which we've been working with for four years now I think maybe five um they have they took a lead and said we're going to create not just look at the environment but we're going to create a partnership that um with private companies like Diaggio who's got a big um plant up there with this this Scottish Railways with the local council and create this as a whole system where we we regenerative we regenerate everything at the same time um which has been in itself super exciting and to see some of those projects are coming coming out now but the um the thing that gets me even more excited than that is well you can you get investors to look at this as a different asset class so instead of saying yeah we're going to we want to fund the river banks being better or whatever saying well actually we're going to fund this as a whole system because we can see that having 12 projects rather than one is going to have a synergistic effect and give us more back on our investment money than if we were just funding one little thing so that's yeah and and that's one of the financial pieces which I think is not underestimated but sort of um I should meant I actually I could make a connection here because the the tomorrow's capitalism inquiry I talked about which led us to the three hours one of the other big conclusions from that was that even companies who wanted to and were back in 2018 early 2019 that even big companies who wanted to transform had a plan to transform to something different to being more regenerative um they didn't know how to explain this to the finance and to banks at all um and my caveat is last couple of years the finance sector has has shifted quite substantially but what we were able to do was to create a an initiative called bankers for net zero which we launched in 2019 um with um the UK parliament one of the parliamentary groups for fair business banking and we brought together industry and banks to try and figure out how might the regulations and we did this for the UK specifically to start with how might regulation policy shift the amount of money flowing from banks to in this in net zero businesses or those types of projects and that was a really interesting piece because you need the three pods of that chair you need you need industry you need the banks and the finance and you need policy and regulation to back up around this um and that's been really successful we just spun it out um earlier this year into its own company um the bankers for net zero which is now part of sort of under the umbrella of the UN global banking alliance for net zero but those again it comes back to collaboration in a really different way um than what we've seen before there's always been collaboration of course but but kind of always with a knife in your back pocket as far as I'm concerned pretty competitive and yet it's a very competitive collaboration yeah and and now um it seems that businesses are in such we are on such a knife edge of a situation and businesses are under such threat from this uncertainty that it's riskier not to collaborate openly um with the whole industry and and with your with your competitors and and beyond far beyond your your industry than it is to to try and hold it on at least sensible businesses will be doing that um and we're seeing more and more of it um we're just again launching a another project around which will be peer supported really how can companies um be better advocates um in policy for for big systemic changes a little bit I always joke about it and say we're trying to figure out how the fossil fuel industry the tobacco industry and the sugar industry in America in particular what did they do to have such a stranglehold for so many decades and and why and how can we use that for good so that's another little project but again it will be it's a lot of it the knowledge is in those corporations and we can um we can unlock that and and have them support each other as peers in a safe environment so we do some of that as well um which is exciting because the the scale of transformation we need is so enormous and you mentioned I have to go back to you mentioned Yvonne from from Patagonia who's just announced that he's given the company to a trust to fight climate change which is extraordinary and yet you know it seemed impossible thing for anybody to do and yet I could see why he as somebody who's been leading on this for so many years would think well this is inevitable we we have to I think and I think we will all be called in the next five years if not earlier to do something we would never have imagined um in the like you know five years ago or today that the the change is needed is is so incredible and um and and and giving away your company to fight climate change you know and if you've heard the the web the the podcast or the video on our website so because one of the things we found actually after we did we did all this work was people don't know what regeneration is so we did so we've done a series of of interviews and articles just to to help beef up the that movement and it's the same reason why we were lucky enough to I've known Daniel Christian Val for a few years and I love his work and so it's the fellowship is not a it's not an acknowledgement of what he has done which has been great it's in order to enable him to work more on this and to think and to help companies um really flourish um with this regenerative thinking because yeah we've got to do a lot of it absolutely he's not only did he get your fellowship he got another award oh yeah the RSA he got a very he got a very RSA he got a very special award from the RSA um the the bicentenary medal which is amazing um and so we do somewhat with the RSA and that it's wonderful um our award is more financial because yeah I really wanted it to be something that would take the pressure of him um he's a you know a brilliant thinker but he's he's he doesn't have a company behind him to support him gets asked to do a lot of things for free and and I wanted him to be able to to write his next book actually and and continue to do that thinking so I agree I'm so glad you guys did that I think it's fabulous not and that that's what I mean that the type of work you do the transformations that the people that you have are just um it's it's bottom up it's so it's organizations who really have the power uh to change at all different levels and so I I'm I'm really glad we could speak again even though I've talked to to John I think you bring a whole beautiful breadth into what you do on the day to day and and other activities uh for volans there's a lot more transformations going on in your organization than than I I think that we know about besides the ones I've already mentioned and I think it's pretty bold to say we're not doing projects or not we're doing different changes we're actually working on transformations can you tell us more why you've chosen that why transformations are so important and what's the direction behind that oh um that's a big question uh I guess it's it's partly necessity um it we did a we did quite a lot of work just when I was joined volans on sort of exponential change and and and how innovations could could drive exponential rather than incremental step by step change and and it just became apparent that we we don't have time for incremental change we have time we should all be doing incremental change but where we felt we could contribute most so that's my dog snoring um that's fine we um where we could contribute most as an organization and as individuals was to really push ambitious change um into the world and help people do that and and it might be worth just talking you talked about our organization so we're we're small we're not 20 people um and the way I I set it up I guess was as a constellation where we have people like Daniel as a fellow we have some amazing associates who are wonderful people in their own right and do their own projects but then come in and help us at certain times for specific projects but we work incredibly hard to they find the good right people who have a resilience and a playfulness that they can they can deal with this despair that we're we could be surrounded by really because the the outlook is really bleak um and yet have the optimism and the strength to to act um and to and I the moment I think that is a quality that we have to have in this time it's the most important thing it's not problem solving it's not being creative it's actually just being able to hold that and still move forward this this you know potential despair and so so we work quite hard at that with the team in the best possible way um to allow them to grow and to learn and and obviously it's a privilege to work with john um but but equally it's a privilege to work with with all of of the team because they're all from you know we have 20 year old students who are just brilliant and and and so to be able to to forge that I think is really important and and maybe I can you know the next for me how how I lead that and how everybody leads wherever they are in the team is really important and the and what I would like to see next is really a shift in how we train educate and how we allow people to learn and unlearn some of the things that there is and this is what we're seeing in the transformations in business by the way we are seeing that the insights and the wisdom is there not that we you know we are not standard consultants who come in and go why let's explain to you how you're going to transform at all which is sometimes quite troublesome because people would love the answers instead we try and ask and the the really important questions and the questions that allow people to dig into their wisdom the wisdom they've had from working in the organization but also from life and if we can do that at a broader scale so instead of focusing so much on on certain skills and actually removing from young people the ability to tap into that wisdom because they're so focused on the grades and the next bits they have to learn off by heart if we can acknowledge that this is uncertain and nobody knows what it's going to be useful to know we know that Google's quite good at it but digging you know holding that uncertainty and being able to really um lead with uncertainty lead your own life and still tap into a strength that's where that's the next transformation I would like to to to see happen in the educational space um you mentioned you know I work with several business schools as does other people in the team but really going further down than the business schools into to younger people who who need it most right now absolutely love that and I mean with transformations um a lot of people really haven't been made aware of this or don't understand we we find ourselves in the Anthropocene deep in the Anthropocene and we really need to kind of progress uh into a new epoch a new epoch that has positive narratives and positive futures for humanity I'm calling that the symbiocene and others have as well um um through the book Earth Emotions and other people talk about symbiosis and symbiocene and and regeneration economic or regenerative economic models and things like that but before we even had the millennium development goals humanity has always needed to make six major transformations and one in business and I don't know about you that I've heard about the most is always the digital revolution the digital transformation you know are we prepared for that new pioneering technology you know blockchain and and uh uh big data and all the other buzzwords but it's really the digital transformation well that's the sixth transformation that's needed to to make to get us to that new epoch the other one is you know transformation of sustainable cities and communities transformation of food and water and land you know um there's there's the transformation of education health and well-being you know just those simple transformations that there are six of them but those are all required to reach the sustainable development goals the sustainable development goals paved the way for ESG so did the triple bottom line and and the whole taxonomy from the EU those six transformations whether you believe in the goals whether you don't believe in those they still are required and uh so when you use the word transformations and in volans you also call regenerators as kind of another form of transformers or transformational people trying to get us on the right side of history there's a lot of work to do and besides projects besides that change I see transformation as something that takes us into a new epoch once you've opened that door you can never go back to the Anthropocene you're in that new epoch you know it's like that um imaginal cells from Kim Polman and Paul Polman and that beautiful book that you go from that caterpillar into the chrysalis and emerge as a butterfly and you can't go back to that chrysalis absolutely absolutely and no I think that's really interesting um and very true the the danger I I see if I can if I can be frank sure please is that we are so set in our mindset that most people when they hear I think that those six transformations which are exactly right you know we need to transform education and cities and so on and the digital transformation they still see it as a mechanical transformation in a sense that oh okay so we move x y and z and then this happens um where they they don't see the that it's actually a qualitative shift that transformation as well and and that's where communicating in in different ways becomes really important it's similar when lots of people are talking about systems change lots of very good people are then you know drawing big my own mind maps and saying okay so the intervention points are here here here and when you look at it you say well that would work if this was a machine but actually we have to acknowledge that we are part of a dynamic living system and we cannot predict um we cannot predict what's going to happen when you touch that intervention point and we have to and again is that thing we have to see it both as the system but also as the individual so I would argue that the big transformation um without sounding um too soft about it but I do think it comes from there is the transformation of of our I guess our confidence let's call it that that that we we start trusting what we are as humans um that that we we are part of something bigger and that we have to forge that path kind of on our own despite the fact the system is telling us for example that we should just focus on profit and that's the only way to be successful as x y z I had a sweet really interesting experience the other day where I met some young people and I chatted with them and we it was great they were fantastic and then afterwards they said you can't quite believe that you're a CEO and I said well what is a CEO meant to be like then you know and so I think I don't even think it was gender it was just the there is it's so strong and we've we've we've had decades of a certain image not just of CEOs but but of of what is needed and what success looks like um and we have to shift that quite significantly and and I hope we can do it without going into an apocalyptic situation for humanity I really hope so you know but and that is my deep hope but but somehow we have to we have to flip that switch where we we can start thinking differently and transforming ourselves so that when we look at the transformation for cities when we look at the digital transformation when we look at the educational system we are doing it from a different place than where we are now inside and I think Paul Pullman would would agree so one of the things you didn't mention and I probably didn't mention it too is we have this this book club called we call it the green swans book club and Paul Pullman came a few months back when he had just come out with his new book and we talked about love angels that humans are actually love angels was his the thing that's not in that book which I love so much um we talked about we talked about faith and and how important whatever faith you have how important some kind of belief system is to to this transformation actually um yeah it's a great book yeah that part so there's a great book but I'm glad that he talked about that um I mean you have to also say that it was uh in conjunction with Andrew Winston on that book so there's a lot of yes Andrew's amazing obviously and Andrew has as it poured all his expertise into it he's a good friend um really I admire him so much it was only because you mentioned Paul and it was that that quote about faith that was it was really interesting um so so I think that's there so I think transformation is important I know that some of the business leaders that I've worked with have said well I've I've tried to figure this out and then people tell me I have to go and sit in a forest and meditate before I can transform my business what how can that be and and I say well you don't have to because I think that's our job that's our job as Volans that's your job um as part of the sustainability regenerative movement um the UN is to allow fight allow people to come in through the doorway they can come in through as fast as possible without watering down the principles without letting them get away with greenwashing etc etc but we have to we have to push people and to the door that is most comfortable for them and then they can go on the journey and and and start transforming both themselves and their organization so we do a lot of that I think is when you talk about what Volans does is it's about catalyzing but it's also about bridging um from this old system that we are standing in and every leader now has been successful in the old system and now we're telling them to shift that's pretty hard right um because we don't know and some of the you know I've we've been doing some work with the the Selfridges group you know luxury department stores all over the world and the CEO of that group one of the things I admire most about her and there are several things I admire my own picture she she's born and bred retail since she was 16 she's been on a shop floor but she knows what she doesn't know necessarily and she has the courage to to bring other people in to listen to them and to take leaps um in that uncertainty and so for me that is that it's the courage in uncertainty that is incredibly important um for leaders as we go forward I think that's part of this transformation as well we need to meet everyone where they're at and understand where they're at to help them on the journey the rest of the way that maybe is very alien to them um of where they're going and where they should go now with with responsibility resilience and regeneration I think is a set of a beautiful standard moving forward in resilience and that's really going to be the next iteration after the sustainable development goals it'll be the resilience development goals we already began working on them in 2019 yes uh there's a there's a huge mistake or a huge misunderstanding of the definition of resilience and you mentioned one one of the definitions in the beginning is kind of of of uh how a lot of people see that you know there's a the resilience of emotion and mentally if somebody swears or hits you or spits on you that you have this emotional mental physical resilience to bounce back then there's the very dystopian resilience where humanity you and I are still surviving but we're wearing a gas mask or a space suit or an oxygen mask to to enjoy what little beauty there could be or just to survive it's kind of a dystopian resilience and it's very competitive and it's also you know kind of what we see in a lot of the media today or there's this other form of resilience that has a lot to do with what we talked about as well in the beginning of this we're building that infrastructure we're preparing that path to have no matter what the climate catastrophe no matter what the conflict and the things that come down the road the policy the infrastructure the ways been paved that we can bounce back the very next day the very next hour with resilience to have clean water and sanitation to have clean air to have food to have have business and so when I hear resilience that is really important for me now having said that what I've experienced I want to see if you've experienced as well before the pandemic before the economic downturn before the brexit before the Ukraine war before all this craziness we've just been through sometimes I felt like I was talking to I was blue in the face with with organizations and companies like oh that's expensive that's hard to do I'm used to this old model and are you sure and just that was never there and I hate to say any of these things were a blessing but boy people are knocking down our doors I would imagine for you as well saying we wish would have listened we would have had that resilience we would have had a little bit more stability we would have had a better plan can you help us get back to that are you also seeing that and how do you feel about that thank you yeah no that's a great question the I think you're right I think it's we have to be careful with language and resilient as you say resilience can be seen in in in several ways and I what that brings up for me is is actually this is when I say we are approaches about being creative and human and unlocking that's exactly it because if we can just start from accepting that uncertainty is going to happen that means that your transformation unlike as an organization unlike a digital transformation from here to here is is about transforming the capacity to deal with whatever comes next knowing that you're not going to have a clue what comes next but you can set up the systems whether you're talking the global systems infrastructure water etc or whether you're talking organizational systems of supporting each other diversity so you know you've got all points of view all those kinds of things is really important so I think that that's an extremely important point and I sometimes get sort of quite animated let's say about people when people say oh you guys are consultants and I'm like yeah but the consultancy model of age is broken because it does not build capacity within organization that doesn't build resilience because it's built on the consultancy model the sort of general consultancy model is exactly the opposite is give people something so that they need to come back not to to build and you know generously build capacity in the people you are working with so that's that's the one piece so the question but the question you really asked which I shall answer as well is are we seeing that yes we are seeing every organization of weird kinds that we are some of many of them that we would not work with because again we're we have to pick very carefully because we are small wanting to understand how can they do better and that's you know that's fantastic is it great it happened because of the situation we're in now no I think if it hadn't been a pandemic and an economic downturn it would have been something else potentially something potentially something much worse because we have been heading into this U-bend for a while and and our job now as we are I think hopefully about to go into the last worst bit is is is setting ourselves up for how to come out and and the if we pick if we pick the right work we do now then likelihood is we can come out as a better world versus the opposite but it is heartening to see that that everybody is so many organizations and and and yet and yet I'm going to hold it it's still not everybody I still have people in if I'm at social events nothing to do with work who say oh sustainability oh yeah yeah that's becoming quite popular now so you know you're making lots of money off it and I think wow what you know but they they see it as a new business opportunity rather than that personal but the people who allow themselves to be I guess whole humans and this is why the school strikes were so important they they are experiencing the issues in the world and and and hearing from their children where are you on this dad and what normally is dad I have to say you know or mom but but normally it's you know what are you doing so what action are you taking with the power you have you know I sometimes fall into that trap last year when cop 26 was in Glasgow I I really wasn't sure I wanted to go because it sometimes feels like quite a big circus I know you were there as well and it was a big circus and it's a big circus and I sort of said well you know do I want to have the you know go and participate in this is it really going to make the difference and then I have three children from the you know at that time there were 14 to 21 and and I was chatting with them and they were talking about how they were going to go on the you know one of them was going to go to Glasgow for the strikes or the marches one of them was going to do it in Cambridge all different places and they were talking about how they feel they have no other way of making a difference they you know they're vegan and buy hardly anything new and all those things you that are sort of the you can do but they don't have a voice and it dawned on me that who am I to say no I don't want to be part of the circus if I have a voice and I was invited to all these things and actually there were so many conversations that cop with people who had never thought about these issues before in a real way and who had decided to come to learn and say and a few of them you know they were sort of said you would have had the same oh have I just been asleep at the wheel for 40 years of my career when I thought I was being successful and so you know I went because I feel we all have to really step up and make our voices heard and it's a beautiful circle back to the beginning where we talked about communications we have to figure out how to have those conversations with everyone whether it's you know on the bus if you're in a country that where people speak on the bus no don't do that in England but or or or at work or with your hairdresser or whatever and and we have to signal that that things are transforming and if we still allow ourselves to have obviously you know don't have to have every very serious conversation but if we don't use what we know and our voices even in questioning the status quo on a day-to-day level then it doesn't matter if we work in sustainability you know we can't we can't not be activists now I think that's the biggest thing and and the joy is that there are so many people in the corporate world who are beginning to take that on personally and in their in their work lives where they have an awful lot of power I totally agree and I mean for me it's like a habit it's just it's ingrained it's a daily activity and it just never ends it's it's also I can't turn the light off anymore I can't crawl back in that Chrysalis it just is there once you see the world in that way once you understand the bigger pictures and you understand that in some respects it is right there is an opportunity there so I hate to when people say oh that's a sustainability is a big business opportunity some kind of a profit making thing no it's just a better business model when you help a million people who are suffering with their global grand challenges you're not a millionaire in a monetary sense but you're a millionaire in a much deeper sense of seeing the world if you help a billion people with their problems you're a billionaire but in not a monetary sense in a much deeper way that really comes back multiple fold and it is a better business model it's a better model for life that's it's the model that works that's what symbiosis is it's the way the world has always worked in collaboration and cooperation not in competition not in in this only the strongest survive natural selection severe competition that's not how the world works we somehow thought it was but it just isn't it's a nice house everywhere yeah we bought into economic man in a all the way didn't we yeah I mean and I think it's it's not the reports it's not the graphs it's not the books that really help it's the good stories and just in your own personal life on on on a on a local way or in an organization on a small very local one-to-one story that's how that transformation happens it's not this big huge global monster that's overwhelming it's kind of small transformations that happen on individual basis um you know before this time I would always talk about the stern report or the stern review and how you know it's just absolutely proven that it's a better model let's apply it and the outcomes will be much better than business as usual than doing it in this old way because a lot of organizations say boy it's expensive to be sustainable it's expensive to be regenerative it's not I think that that's and you're hitting on exactly why it's now it's it's they're realizing it's expensive not to be prepared for this it's a huge risk supply chain food everything across the board it is it is a big risk and and if we can start it's fine to start acting differently because you're seeing a risk because eventually you realize that actually it is a huge opportunity um in so many ways including for the economic man and the and the profit line so um you you you guys have really started in not only with your green swads book club the podcast and kind of discussions you've talked to many different people but you guys have also started to get involved in um some education and trainings uh kind of to prepare people not only organizations in different levels and there was this um course with the capital institute in john florton you also participated john participated um and many others that i'm gel i'm jealous i wasn't asked to participate jeremy land uh you were uh hunter levin's alan savory laura store i mean there's a second cohort starting there's a second cohort starting i'm like drop my name please i was so i'm so jealous i wasn't but it was you know wonderful you you guys talked about regenerative economic systems thinking the eight principles of regenerative vitality one i want to know how how it went but i also want to know our uh what your feelings are on these new economic models that are emerging we're seeing the club of rome we're seeing um all these new economic models and saying hey these old systems this old way looking at capitalism or economics extractive neoclassical or or um you know classical economics it's just not working for us anymore we need some new ways of looking at it and you're actually not just talking about those you're joining forces with these people to create these courses and participate to have those discussions so one i want to know more about that and kind of why is that why are we seeing that give us the insider haha um so first i would say that i feel our part whilst we are a strategic partner of the capital institute for the regenerative economics course you know we we're a very small cog and part of that and and john fullerton and the team tomas anesto um alexandra are brilliant and have pulled it together i think in a brilliant way so it went very well um i think the first cohort had 250 or 300 people to online um and those people are still and and i put our whole team on it as as participants so we we did some of the um the podcast or the the the learning sessions modules but we um everybody got an opportunity from the team to to take part and and it was heavy there's a lot of of content there's so much fantastic stuff that you you know you almost want to go on holiday and and have it and um and um and and then go through the course but um what what's interesting is it's really it was obvious that there was such a hunger to build a community around it so people are still in conversation on the on the course platform now four months later i'm still getting always i saw this i thought you might find this interesting you know people want to collaborate and and again it's it's one of the great hopes and sort of sources of optimism um is that people want to make a difference and people want to learn um so that was what that's one economics um course obviously before that and we've had Kate with do not economics mariana matucato and and the mission-based um economy who's um yeah one of my favorite people to interview actually on the book club so mariana came on uh she is a wonderful wonderful woman um and and i think just for those on on on the podcast or her listening mariana matucato from mission economics and she's written several wonderful books but she's uh she's really great kate real worth donut economics so as well so you've had the best of the best out there yeah um really they are both you know trained economists who've kind of gone rogues to some extent and come up with these models that work for the planetary boundaries and and for the for the future um i'm so thrilled to see that they are gaining traction it is still very small um and but i think there is a lot of hope for it to grow exponentially primarily through the EU and this is where policy again comes in because several EU policy makers have really paid attention to both of those sort of strands of economics is it enough no um but it but it is growing because it's so obvious you know we have we have let the world slip in the standard economics to a point where it's really clear it's not working um you have to you know the fact that there is a million people in poverty in the uk um really it just it's becoming so obvious and that's where the joy of having the younger you know the millennials but then gen z and alphas coming up behind them um they just won't accept this world like this and i think that's when we'll see those economics go further um john fullerton's course again oh the capital institute course was is fantastic and john has all this experience as a banker for you know decades so he knows ins and outs of that and he's really worked hard to to learn and apply that to these principles of what could a regenerative economic economic system look like um and there's lots to learn i would highly recommend it as a course for anyone but it is there's a lot of content is what i would say um i've still got a couple i haven't watched yet um for the um but there are also other pieces and some people might be overwhelmed by the economics part of that there are lots and we're seeing this and and it's interesting as i said i work with several um business schools i'm on the board of of extra business school uh which has always been um focused on sustainability and innovation and is and is doubling down on that but um there's a lot of competition from from other types of of learning so you have laura storms uh regenerate regenerate leadership i've got that whole year which is which is a great course again it's more it's more personal um and you've got a few other courses um and i we can put the links up with Jeremy yeah i can put it up as well Jeremy Lentz in there yeah the web of meaning that's a great generative leadership i mean it's just one after the other superstars i i'm a student of herman dally so um basically i'm a i studied ecological economics and steady state economics with Herman at the University of Maryland and have um how lucky really yeah i'm very lucky so i'm a big fan of that and and i think that's the direction we're going most people don't even know and i've talked about it before that there are more than 21 different types of ecological economic models uh out there you know the ones you just spoke about mission economics donut economics uh there's now the emergence of planetary boundary type of economic models regenerative economics shared economics platform economics on and on i could more than 21 there's probably more popping up all the time um and and so we really won the reason they're popping up is because we're we're sick of neoclassical micro uh macroeconomics that just aren't working for us anymore we wait till the next bubble bubble emerges and it pops or it doesn't pop and we get a bailout and we go right back to that same system that never worked for us in the beginning what what's new what is working and then there's there's a little added confusion because do we do circular economy do we do donut economics do we do regenerative economics or is it all of those in the same thing and how how does that look like how does it work so it's really good that we we understand it we kind of get into that and that's hard because like you said it can be you you might need a vacation from the course or you might need to go on vacation to absorb the course but most people don't realize that how much our lives are impacted from economic models wherever we live in the world whatever and we don't we feel like we don't have anything to do with it that's wrong we have so much to do with that and to shape it that's why it's important to kind of understand that because even if you don't adhere to certain models or to to the way certain governments or organizations or or um things are working you can create your own internal family economy your own regenerative self organization that absolutely doesn't break any laws but it creates this new thing yeah exactly so first of all i am really jealous so i did the classic i you know i did ppe at oxford so that's micro micro straight down the line economics snooze um but um i guess one of the things that again makes me hopeful is you've got people within the finance industry looking at some of this so you've got people like the wonderful steve waygood of aviva investors um who is basically looking at what are the tools that are being used every day that is a reflection of that economic system um and if we can change those little those little pieces of tools that the analysts are using to value a company um to something better then we're dismantling the existing economic system and so so i think that's where uh at least that's where i think oh i can see the hope in that because as you say the economic systems of i love that i think the amsterdam has taken doughnut economics and said right we're going to apply this brilliant um my home city of coban hagan is looking at the same thing fantastic but as a human being that's really hard to to deal with uh you know what what can we do it just feels so big and and should is it doughnut should you do something else um what where's the ecological side of that is planetary boundaries included in doughnut economics or not that yes lots of debates going on but if people in the finance industry can go okay so this tool actually i know that this tool you know um discounts the future when i'm when i'm looking at um the value of a company then and if we can shift those things those small things and and i think there's a resurgence weirdly in those small quite boring things that we don't notice that similar to contracts law you know how contracts are put together make a huge difference to the world and and how we behave to each other so those kinds of things are really interesting and i think i think lawyers and accountants and and sort of bankers who are not the people i would normally um put lots of faith in because they're they work on the plumbing um they have a huge role to play now um to a spot the opportunity for shifts and then start start agitating for some of those shifts somehow so i think that's that's really interesting um b-cops of course is one one sort of way of of taking that governance piece but there but there are others and yeah everybody has a role to play you i don't know if you we've covered it or if you you mentioned it you guys have a strong push now or corporate advocacy projects or transformations that you're doing did did you can you tell us a little bit more about that exactly what that means um yeah i don't know if we covered it already but the um it really is for companies to explore how can they best have an influence in the world we all know that companies have an influence in how they produce and sell things of course how they advertise but also most companies are involved in trade associations and in direct conversations with government either on policy either national government or local um government um or or pan-eupian for example with the EU and most of the people who are working within that space um feel quite alone and they don't really know what other people are doing and so what we're doing is bringing together a group of of companies that have ambitions to have a bigger purpose and impact in the world than themselves and and allowing them to to learn from each other looking at other frameworks that could be created from those experiences and from what our research has shown of what is effective so that they each of those companies at least are more effective and we can spread something to a bigger group of companies so it should be quite exciting it kicks off in the in the autumn I have um four more questions for you until we're done and this next one is actually be the hardest one that I've that I've asked you so far but I've prepared you long time ago whether you remember or not um what does a world that works for everyone look like to you Elise what does a world that works for everyone look like for you oh uh so this I'm gathering references to Bucky Fuller very spot on um and I don't remember you preparing for this so um but it I think it's quite simple because it links directly to what I consider my personal purpose in life which is about allowing and creating the conditions for each human being and I would kind of I wanted to I want to extend it beyond human beings potentially into the animal kingdom to the natural world but for each person to flourish and be at their very very best um uh as a as a human that really is it um I I know we I could describe it with this is what a city would look like and this is but but that is what it is I believe that that will require or will lead to abundance abundance of everything right now we we have lived for many many years in a sense of and a society that accepts scarcity which is where I think the competitiveness and economic land comes from we've convinced ourselves that everything is scarce when really everything in life is abundant um and and if we can tap into that and allow every person to be at their very very very best that doesn't mean you can do everything and that we can all fly or whatever but that then I think that's the word that I think that's I think Bucky Fuller would have liked that too I love it that's that's great now I already in this kind of showed you my favorite book of all time this I I love green swans but I have to tell you this is my favorite book ever I've I've read it those times of Jeremy wrote a section in my book he's a fabulous man but I've been looking for years and I've even asked John this question when he was when he was on there is there one place out there a university a book um a place to to gain this systemic this complexity knowledge of the world and how to make sense of it how to move forward what what tools can we do some some sense of empowerment or understanding of of this world of all the things that I'm pretty sure you studied as well I've studied you know I I'm a graduate of Capra courses from Fritz Hof Capra I'm a big fan of Bucky and the list goes on and on who are all environmentalists great business leaders great people around that but I never found a book that really brought it all together or made sense of it and then left you with a good and that's this so the question is is not really telling you my my favorite book but I want to know what's your favorite book that you've ever read you've interviewed a lot of people you've taught I'd like to really know what your thoughts and feelings are what's the best book you've ever read oh my goodness that's hard and so first of all look I've got it here on my um on my table because I'm rereading it at the moment the the best book ever it it's hard isn't it the hardest question I think it's much harder than the view of the world the um before this one mine I don't know if you've ever read Richard Bach illusions but before Jeremy's book that was that was probably I would have to say that was one of my favorite illusions was one of my absolute favorite books I gave it to everyone everyone me too gave it to everyone just fabulous and then the other one you kind of you kind of mentioned this as well because in your answer of what does the world that works for everyone look like you you said your purpose for existing or your why and and one of my good friends the very first podcast I ever did was John P Strelike the big five for life the purpose for existing uh it was today a museum day a fabulous book oh my goodness great read easy I always call out the toilet read but so deep but yeah anyway I don't want to I'm trying to give you time to think I know I know you are um maybe I can actually um the I've got a copy of it here this is not my this is a copy to give away so this is not the best this is not the best book I've ever read but it's one of the best books I've recently read and I think it's it's really I think it's really important it's by Julia Bell and it's called radical attention and it's about the battle for attention in this age of distraction it's it draws on so many other books to to be incredibly concise and easy to read in fact my daughter stole one of my daughter stole it from me and read it within sort of 10 hours when we were traveling to and from from the Netherlands on a train um really really easy uh yeah and it shows that because it has both that systemic piece and it's got the personal piece which I love so it's attention and what we pay attention to and and how we spend our time matters so it's it's less systemic than all those books that you mentioned which again I love and and it's funny the illusions really was my favorite book for many years um also the Daniel Quinn book uh what's it called yes I love Daniel Quinn's book um so a couple of Daniel Quinn's book I I love love and sometimes and I think this is an interesting point potentially sometimes um those novels um non and fiction books can give us a lot another one I would I would mention which is not to much to hand right now which I would wave at you is I do think also the ministry for the future um fans book was but not yeah um yes and he one of the things I did at cop was co-organize an event with Club of Rome for Nigel Topping and and he came as part of that so so I'm a big fan of that book not easy read though I think Julia Bell would give get my vote for the moment but yeah that's not an easy read he's a nice person but it is a good book it's a great book um but this one I would highly recommend Julia Bell the radical attention um short but very very punchy and I would argue everybody would get quite affected by it um trying to think what else uh I also had the pleasure of of meeting and spending time with sister to dedication from Plum Village the Buddhist monastery in and several of the monastics there in in France this year and she co-wrote a book with her now passed away teacher Tai or Tich Nhat Hanh and Kul Zen and the art of saving the planet which I also think is a book worth reading for most people but yeah I I'm not a one one horse person as you can tell I'm not either I do like three to four books a week that I read and and I've started to go into academic books now because I'm running out of other books but I just submit I have an addiction it's really bad I feel ashamed sometimes no I think again I think this is I think this idea and again comes back to learning and education that that it has to be continuous and by continuing to read we nurture our humility that we don't know everything and sometimes we read books that just enforce that we know stuff which is also wonderful but but the to nurture curiosity and to nurture that idea that that things are moving I think is just it's just so important yeah and I really I listened to all the book club podcasts or the videos that you guys do on the book club and I love it I thank you guys for that work and I'm so glad that you and John both have taken the time to to really speak to me and spend time it's not only did I learn that but my audience really appreciates John appreciates what you guys do for the world and we need to let them know about what tools who's out there who's supporting who's kind of carrying that banner who's there to help because you I don't want to downgrade you but you guys are humane your people per people people and in reality and you're you love to see us all get on the right side of history the last two questions are really if there was one message that you could depart to my listeners maybe even two two messages as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change our life what would those messages be oh that's a good one the I think it would be and I know this is a contrary to one of the podcasts I heard because he said the opposite but I think we all have to be activists now and we have to be stubborn activist optimists is where I would put it that is the most important thing to really continue to to work and it's fine to take time off and you shouldn't feel guilty for for relaxing or watching TV but but we cannot afford the slumber anymore and we cannot afford to drug ourselves with um nonsensical television sugar alcohol drugs shopping and not see and not act I think that is it's hugely important um that we all just take just a little step in that direction if we're not already acting I love how you phrase that because I do believe that some of those things that you listed there make us numb they desensitize us they keep us from even being able to see what's going on around us and that's something that in my travels and that I just see that our infrastructures our models the things that they're just sorely lacking they're they they're still stuck in the dark ages or the industrial revolution in many respects and that infrastructure needs to get up to speed with a sustainable future with a regenerative future and so I I totally agree with you what have you learned or experienced in your professional journey so far that boy you say I wish I would have learned that a long time ago or that I wish I would have known that experience or had that much sooner oh this is a good one I guess uh we think leaning that leaning into who I am specifically earlier I wish I had had just had the confidence to to know and that it was okay just to be me and not to try to live up to other people's standards ways of doing things and so on uh really because the more I do that the more impactful I am the more fun I have happy I am and the world around me equally Louise thank you for letting us all inside of your ideas it's been a sheer pleasure that's all I have unless you have something you want to ask me or that you didn't get to say it now it's your chance well um I have a couple things please please please one was I thought of something um you said I could have two messages the other one was sure it sits a little bit strangely with me because I am a city girl like I really very urban in my upbringing and so on but I do think that being quiet in nature is an is a message that I would encourage everybody to just try and have for a while just being quiet in nature and that can be the park or you know two inches across somewhere this never fails um and to ask you I would love to ask you what you you know you do so many diverse things um and how how you would like I guess people to engage with the podcast and this part of your life you do you know you do so much with companies with the UN all of and then you're still taking the time to to chat to people like me and and and to to get these ideas out so what what would you like the listeners of the podcast I guess to do or to change um when they listen to all of them it doesn't have not just mine of course so I can tell you a bunch of things so I'm very um I take a very systems approach to life I think it's it's sheer freedom so a lot of people think oh boy that's a lot Mark does a lot of things and must not ever sleep or whatever but by taking a systems view approach to life and addressing multiple facets of a of a what could be called a complex system not only do you solve more human suffering but you also start to address global grand challenges and so why I do the podcast why uh speak and work for the UN why um work on you know future projects or work with companies is because I I want to empower global citizens anyone I can reach to with to live an adaptive lifestyle of health and sustainability to see that there's much more beauty in this world that there's models that have been around for a long time that if we apply them and even do them in a systemic or an autonomous way life just gets better again not only do yes the profits become more but the the internal rewards of how your life goes just feels feels a lot better and I want them to learn how to live that adaptive lifestyle of health and sustainability within the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries and so the advice that I guess is mainly for the podcast our brain processes information and language a lot faster than we can speak it so put the podcast on 1.5 2.0 speed because I'm a slow talker I might say oh and I'm a lot time but the wisdoms of of many of those who are on the podcast you Louise John most are author CEOs thought leaders trying to put us on the right side of history and those questions that I ask you specifically the one um what does a world that works for everyone look like for you has been different from well over 2800 people that I've asked that question it's always been different which is very telling yes we're not cooperating we're not collaborating as much as we should be we're not always on the same page are we all moving in the same direction does that diversity help us to reach that goal I think is so vital for us to think about that question for ourselves and and start to formulate our own local economy our own world in in the way we want to see the future to the way we think that it'll work at least at first for us and then hopefully for everyone else and then start looking around you and if those models and the things you're seeing in the world aren't that way start having conversations like you said let's let's have those conversations let's communicate and let people say hey I disagree let's be activists let's change those policies let's try to shape those let's change the way our business works so that that outcome that roadmap those plans or goals to get there will be the one that we decide because if you don't know the answer to those questions if you've never thought about it it's most likely that you'll never get to that you'll someone else will push you in that direction you're kind of like a ship without a rudder or without a plan or roadmap that's a great answer thank you no you're most welcome um thank you very much for for doing this and all the work you do and um I'm very proud to be included in this bit it's been a sure pleasure it's a great great podcast and I've really enjoyed it I'm sure it's going to go really well thank you very much Louise take care tell John and everyone hello I will do see you soon