 All right, welcome back. It's still the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa Security Crime. He's our focus right now on this particular discourse. And we have Dennis Amakri. He's a former assistant director at the Department of State Services. And he's going to join us as we discuss in a custom season container laden, yes, with guns. That happened on Friday at the Tink and Island port in the Papua area of the state. You know, this is actually common days after the IGP, you know, charged the police managers to brace up to the anticipated internal security, you know, following 2022 and all of that. Good morning to you, Dennis Amakri. Good morning, Justin. How are you today? I'm doing okay. Bright and early. We're doing good. All right, let's talk about this particular development because it is very worrisome, you know, that, you know, this particular, I'll call them illegal arms or weapons as it were, you know, being imported into the country and they actually concealed in containers. It is actually very worrying because the Inspector General of Police have actually hinted over some internal security challenges towards this particular time. What do we have on our shoulders right now? Well, like they said, it is illegal arms being concealed and they brought it to the country. This is not the first time it's been coming in through that same Tink and Port. But unlike what the headlines are saying, it's not a continental load of guns, yes. The one in 1917, 2017, 2017 was the one that was a full continental load of pump action. But these particular ones were concealed in cars. So they are not a continental load, but all the same, they are in different form of AR-15s that are coming in, most likely from that American gun, coming in to Nigeria. But what is worrisome now is that these guns are infiltrated into Nigeria and they are regularly, regularly. Okay, so another concern now is, like you have rightly mentioned, this is not the very first time we're having, you know, these guns coming to the country. And maybe it might not just be the last time it would come in through that particular, you know, port. So the question now is, because looking at the reports, I mean, the Nigerian, they are saying that the reports they are yet to, I mean, there's a press conference that's going to happen sometime, you know, this morning or so before the end of the day. And we're hoping to get all of the information because everything is still very sketchy according to, you know, the report. But they're stumbled on the container. My question now is how come we just have to wait for tips because it feels like it's another tip-off or it's another stumbling, we just stumble. Are we not supposed to have equipment and gadgets or devices, technology, that we can dictate if we have all of this container coming, you know, rather than depend on manual pattern of finding out or waiting for somebody to tip us off, or, you know, just stumbling on, you know, this container. And then you just realize that there's a gondor or you have ammunition there. Are we not supposed to, you know, have some form of technology and equipment to help us dictate the things that are coming into our country? Maybe contraband. Yeah, of course. You're right. There should be having a very, you know, new technology profiling that they could use by running the container through them. And then, of course, it will tell them what is inside the containers. But I don't think they have that type of profiling at the time. So what they do is either by people trying to give information or by just taking random samples, because when you go to the port, the containers, there are too many. You have thousands and thousands of containers being offloaded. Now, how do you go through them one by one? And that is a problem because I know that the port's authority have been trying to make sure that containers don't stay in the port for too long. So they want everybody to clear their containers and go away. So in this hurry, you usually allow things to go out and then, of course, they are being caught. Sometimes by, well, if there are snitches, even those with arms and ammunition are being caught on the way after they've cleared the ports. So for now, that's what they are doing. But I agree with you, they should use a better profiling system where they could see what is going through the container and it should be automated. That way, things will be faster. All right, Dennis. The concern right now for me is that lately, we've been having the proliferation of small arms and ammunition in the country. With this particular seizure, getting into or being made by the Nigerian customs, what would have happened if they were not intercepted? Because we are still battling the war against insurgency, banditry and disambandit and insurgents. They have all sorts of sophisticated weapons. Do these weapons come through the port? Or what do we, I need to understand what we have in our hands because if these weapons were not intercepted, what would have happened really? If they were not intercepted, they would go into society, into the Nigerian society. And then, I will tell you right now, there are many that have come into the country, either in private hands, because some people, I'm not talking of the shipload or container loads. I'm talking of these sails or triple arms that are coming concealed in cars. Usually, they belong to Nigerians who are either living in the UK or United States. And then, of course, some of them are very worried about the security situation in the country. So they feel that, well, I'm going to get an AR-15 and keep it in my house. But that's an assault rifle. You are not supposed to carry that. If you want a gun to protect yourself, you can use a pistol or you can use a double barrel or a pump action. But when you have an AR rifle, which is being used by the American military or SWAT teams, then you are thinking of a different kind of assault. But these things are in the country. And many people are trying to buy and keep them because they feel that if the society is very insecure, if anybody tries to break into my house, then I might want to deal with the person. But this is not supposed to be because it's illegal. You have to legalize any arm that you bring into the country. So in verbally, it's all actually a fallout of the security situations we have faced with right now as a country, not as in Nigerians trying to protect themselves and not necessarily maybe the bandits and their sponsors trying to bring weapons into the country. No, I think for the kind of weapons I've seen, I think they are mainly for protection. Bandits are usually the weapon of choice. It's AK-47. AK-47s and then AK-47s are also very, very expensive, which is right now, if you go to the black market to get an AK-47 for at least half a million, that tells you that somebody is sponsoring these bandits and amending them. And that is where we have the problem. When you have AR-15s coming in, I think basically they are also for protection of self. But at the same time, because they are assault rifles, they are illegal. You cannot keep such in your house. Okay. I'd like to ask you, do you think that we have been very sincere with the fact that we have been making efforts to curb control of small arms and proliferation of these arms in Nigeria? Have we been sincere enough to fight all of this? Because we know where these guns are coming through. I mean, maybe through the land borders or what have you. I'd like to share your thoughts on this one. Is there any sincerity in the fight or in trying to curb illegal arms importation into Nigeria? Yes. I think there is a lot of sincerity. The one that was intercepted in 2017, which was handed over to the DSS. And the DSS went ahead, processed them, arrested some people that are involved in it and handed it over to the courts. Because, you know, where you cannot deal with it all by yourself when it comes to this kind of thing. So when it goes to the court, our court system is so slow. 2017 till date, we don't know what is happening again about those arms, about what happened to those people who imported those arms. So it is a very serious issue. And when you look at all those lackadaisical laws, slow movements of justice system, many people will think that the country is not sincere. But I don't know. There must be a reason why it takes so long to prosecute. And then, of course, give them the same publicity that was given when the arms were arrested. Give them the same publicity that these guys have been found guilty. And they are going to appeal some kind of punishment for that. So, yes, to answer your sincerity question, I think the government is sincere, but it's very slow in achieving a deterrent factor in this particular issue. All right, Dennis, if I follow your postulation, I'm thinking that we have a lot of challenges and them issues or problems I'm trying to avoid, you know, right on our plate. Because even Nigerians are actually trying to find ways of protecting themselves and they actually resorting to importing guns. And if that way is actually blocked, they might resort to other means, maybe getting locally made guns here in Nigeria. So what do we do in terms of the issue of gun control and ensuring that if you actually are in need of a gun or if you should be able to use a gun, you can get the guns legally. But then again, even if we start giving arms to Nigerians, what are we expecting to see in the next couple of years? Yes, that is between the WC, you know, and the ROC, you know, we cannot give guns to Nigerians just like that. I believe strongly, I'm not an advocate of gun handling in the sense that individuals, the society should be structured in such a way that the police should take care of everybody. And we have seen all these things because the police have failed in trying to get, you know, the society secure. And you don't blame them too much because they are thinly spread. You have 400 or so thousand policemen policing 200 million people. It's not just possible. You know, it's not just possible. So when you try to say, okay, let's give arms to people, for instance, let them go ahead and protect themselves. And number one, some of them don't know how to handle arms. That means you have to open up gun shooting ranges all over the country where people can go buy guns and then of course license it and go and try on how to use it. Otherwise, people will use it to kill themselves. And then think of it, Nigerians with a very high temper, even if in the traffic, traffic accidents, you know, you find that people will want to shout at each other or even shoot each other if they have guns. And also people will come back home and there is no food ready for them. They want to shoot their wives or something like that, you know. So guns, even in America, you'll find out that they are trying to call it because the National Rifle Association in America is trying to push it that everybody has the right to own a gun. But at the same time, you cannot use your right to just go into shopping mall and start shooting other people or go to a school compound, university compound, and then start shooting people. So there are pros and cons, but I think the disadvantage when it comes to allowing people to just own guns randomly like that. All right. So recently, the president transmitted a bill to the National Assembly and the bill seeks to control arms and proliferation and regulates the importation of arms into Nigeria. Also, there was an establishment of, you know, a center for small arms and light weapons. I'd like to ask you, as a security consultant and expert, do you think that this will go, you know, a long way in reduction of arms importation, understanding that we have an issue of implementation of the law or following through persecuting, and even with the fact that the justice system, like you have mentioned, is very slow. Do you see this contributing anyway to, you know, reduction of gun control or access into our country? Yes. I actually followed that committee on small arms and light weapons or do really proliferating about proliferation. And you find out that, yes, what they are trying to do with that committee is to make sure that they know why these arms are coming into Nigeria, how they are coming into Nigeria, and how to stop them, you know, not how to make sure that society is safer. They believe that if they stop it, and question is doing a very good job, they are anyway, because they keep on arresting or intercepting double barrel cartridges, arms and ammunition coming through our porous borders. Now, if we really want to do something about this, we have to go back to the root causes. How did the arms come into this country? When we know those systems, we block them. If they are coming through the border, block those porous borders. If they are coming through shipments, now you have, like you started earlier, use a better profiling technology whereby containers will just run through and then, of course, you will know, you know, even if it is broken down, it should be able to identify certain parts of the gun, you know. So these are the kinds of things that we could do. We are not usually very serious about this, but the technology is there. You know, if you look at black countries, they are using them. So why can't we? All right, thank you so much. I'm Deniz Amakri for your time and your thought. Indeed, we need to really look at the issue of gun control and the proliferation of small arms and the light weapons in Nigeria, because as a teaser, we are not ready for the massacre that it could cause if Nigerians are giving arms readily. Thank you once again. I'm Deniz Amakri for your time. Yeah, we do appreciate it. Okay. All right, Deniz Amakri is actually the former assistant director of the DSS and he is a security consultant. I don't really think I'm going to have a gun because if you don't prepare my food, just on the light, I'm going to say a very big thank you to all of you who have actually sent back to watch. We'll return again tomorrow. My name is Justin Akadoni. And I am Masibopo. Do have yourself a great morning.