 A new constitution will save Nigeria from total collapse says a senior advocate of Nigeria, Chief Affe Babalola. The Nigerian Senate has prohibited the payment of ransom after amending the Terrorism Act of 2013. This is Plus Politics and I am Kofi Bartels. Welcome, a senior advocate of Nigeria and founder of the Affe Babalola University, Chief Affe Babalola, has called members of the Nigerian Bar Association to support the crusade for a new constitution to save Nigeria from what he called imminent collapse. Babalola said that Nigeria would have caught up with Britain if the military had not suspended the 1963 constitution which it iscribed as the People's Constitution and in 1999 imposed one that could not address the issues of Nigeria. It's very interesting statements by the revered gentlemen. Now joining us to discuss this is a constitutional lawyer and legal practitioner Faisal Guccher. We also have Gide O'Logan but I'm told Chief O'Guccher will join us along the line. Gide O'Logan, thanks very much for your time and what are your thoughts? Let's start off from that on this call by Affe Babalola and to the members of the Bar in Nigeria. Thank you very much. The senior sword has been on this advocacy since around 2001 and based on his own argument that Nigeria is operating under an imposed constitution by the military when transferring power back to democracy and then for some of us we need to look at the basic need for the constitution. The constitution is about the basic principles and laws of the nation. State or social group that determine the powers and duties of the government guaranteeing certain rights to the people in it and basically if you look at section 14 subsection 2 of the Nigerian Commission Act 9 as amended for instance it says that the security and the welfare of the people shall be the primary purpose of the government even if that is the only provision in that constitution that the government has tried to implement up to seventy percent. I believe that today Nigeria should be the far richest country in the world. So for the likes of us it's not really about the constitution we have or about the drivers of the constitution. Even though we may have the argument that some elements of the constitution need to be reviewed but we have also reviewed the constitution from time to time and in comparison with the 1963 constitution that he's also making reference to right now. It is what we call the Republican constitution that swept away the hold of the colonial rule over Nigeria because in 1963 Nigeria became a true federation. We had four regions then that are autonomous and the influence of the Queen surrendered to the influence of Nigerians to govern their affairs and the big question is that what have we done so far with that privilege that we obtained in 1963 following the political independence of 1960. So you may give us a new constitution if those who want to drive the constitution do not have the mindset of developmental government approaches then we'll be back to square one and there were some very prominent features of the 1963 constitution that we may want to consider. For example it provided for an elected president, we still have that right now, that we no longer represent the Queen of England, the parliament-bested alteration of the constitution, the procedure for creation of new states were established and today we've been able to create up to 36 states and the parliament made up of the president, the Senate and House of Representatives was there, the Supreme Court became the highest court in the land and we still have some of it and basically I doubt if there's anything wrong with us having the Supreme Court at the highest court of the land and when you talk about the merits the elected president became the head of state to replace the British monarch so that handed over to Nigerians the management of Nigeria and if we have mismanaged it we may not blame the constitution so much and the constitution was an autotonous one that is homemade constitution considering the needs of the people at that point in time and of course the decision making process and the process in that constitution was vested in Nigerians and still vested in Nigerians but when you look at the 1963 republican constitution it also has the demerits also for example only the legislative and executive answer government were used effectively and there was parliamentary supremacy in the constitution and right now we have a replica of that we have the national assembly that is made up of one and nine senators and 360 house of rest member that are now calling them for the sake of service to you rather than proceeding on impeachment procedure if the president has failed to fulfill the mandate of section 14 subsection two of Nigerian positions so right now you sit by Nigerians at the messy of the the the national assembly so to say and I will say that really except we are saying we are going back to regional government that represents the true federalism where each region we have to manage our resources and make a contribution to the central government but that may be a difficult one because we've come to the point in Nigeria where those who may be beneficiaries of this presidential system of government we run we go ahead headlong to oppose the call for this true federalism and that is what we have been discussing under the call for a structure so that each region can manage their resources and develop because one of the the basic features of the national security condition under the true federalism that we the regional government we have that was a very healthy competition that was when you had the overtran industrial estate we have the the coal in the south-eastern part of the country the granade pyramids in the north and that was when we started the rest of the station in Africa you know a lot of great things happened pre-education and you know you know logo you've raised some interesting very interesting points I want to thank you for taking us down memory lane you seem to be saying that indeed you know the call for a new constitution totally a new constitution to save Nigeria is a good one but you've said that it seems you're saying that that is not the answer that this 1963 constitution that was suspended by the military also had its merits but it's the merits as well I think that's what you're saying that a constitution if we have a new one still is not the answer to Nigeria's issues is that what you're saying absolutely and I mean I may want to add this question what constitution does Singapore run Singapore became independent left Malaysia in 1965 as a little coastal region with little resources and by developmental leadership Lee Kuan Yee was able to transform that third world in quotes to a first world war and that is one of the best nations to live and work in the world today are they depicting constitution there what constitution do they run in the United Arab Emirates that now operates an autopilot to prosperity or I mean do they know how the constitution in United Arab Emirates that they they identified sponsors of Boko Haram in Nigeria they prosecuted them and jailed them and yet we are not able to run with our own laws is there any provisions that says that terrorism should be allowed in Nigeria that people should be killed that terrorists should apply and you know attack the train so it's just how we drive the system so you're saying the constitution as we even the one we have and the laws we have are enough to make Nigeria successful if we want the country to be successful absolutely if you read section 14 to section 18 of the Nigerian constitution as amended you'd be amazed and I'm challenging all our viewers to please spare some time for example if you read section 18 if we have a serious-minded governance system that is developmental in approach we should not have us to be in on strike today because section 18 says this government must provide education for all we should not be condoning fight against education you talk about the economic when we section 15 and section 16 that says that the resources of the country should not be managed in the way that we concentrate well to the hands of the few that wish you have a dependent economy that we should make affordable and available housing food care for the old reasonable living minimum wage you know care for the disabled available to all citizens in fact maximum happiness those provisions are then the constitution so it's about how it is wrong that we have allowed nepotism that we have allowed this respect to the rule of law and I think these are issues that we can confront and the national assembly can help us wasn't the electoral act amended recently have we not been having the review of the same condition so you if you give Nigerians the best constitution in the world except they have the mindset and the repentance period to make great things happen in this country they will still mismanage that constitution so for a GDO local it's not really about the documents we have even though I agree that I document needs a review to make it a full reflection of justice but then with what we have now we can see prosperity nation I'm asking now at the annual laws anti-terrorism laws in Nigeria don't you have section 15 of section five that says that the state shall abolish corrupt practices and abuse of office why do we have all teams in Nigeria why do we have people embezzling trillions of Naira why do we have a group of Nigerians claiming that it has spent a hundred billion Naira to turn around one country finally a general law to go out at them these are the issues that we have so I respect the yearnings of our state but yes yes but it's a lot interesting you've said you've said you respect the yearnings of especially the revered lawyer but it seems you're also saying that certain aspects of national life can never be carried on successfully and I am told I do hope that we can get Faisal Goche on the phone line as quickly as possible so he can be a part of this conversation but it seems you're saying that certain aspects of national life may not function if we do not fix or have a new constitution now what some people are saying is that these things you're talking about is it fighting terrorism is it fighting corruption is it good governance is it you know fighting insecurity you know providing healthcare for the people and then the benefits or the dividends of democracy to the grassroots that all these things are tied to the constitution because they say that the constitution is what sets up the structure and the framework for the country and the structure as it is like you've rightly said is flawed so if you don't fix that structure whatever you put under structure no matter how well intended will collapse so this is an example for you for instance you have a Lee Kuan Yew who comes into Nigeria and he decides to leave this country he comes back from the dead the school authorities that he will fail with this current constitution let me engage in prominent agitation now which is the call for state police because of the widespread level of insecurity in the country by asking a simple question if we have a president that wants to achieve a huge result that we position him on the golden side of history by diminishing insecurity in Nigeria are you saying he cannot engage the institutional police and the military by the powers confined in him under the constitution to diminish insecurity in the land or are we saying there are no provisions in the present laws of the country to fight the evil in the land so it's all about the driver it's all about the leader you see leadership and the constitution we are talking about is like a tea bag you drop a tea bag in a hot water then you bring tea that you drink and you throw the chaff of the tea away you don't swallow the chaff so there is no perfect document globally there is no constitution that is perfect for those who drive the constitution to implement the constitution go as far as ensuring that the fortunes of the people are enhanced that they deliver to the people and that is what we are saying and I believe I have studied our constitution I know there are areas we should review based on the concept of dynamism in governance but then if we implement what we have now up to 75% Nigeria should be the third richest country in the world and that remains my position I align myself if it is a possibility that we have a new constitution but who are those who allow it are those who are so greedy they have cornered Nigeria and they want to continue to manage Nigeria who are the ones that we make way for it that's the point we have the under the 1963 constitution we embrace the universal declaration of human rights when people protest in this country now you see is it a function of the constitution that gives you the liberty to express yourself so I am saying and that remains my argument that the drivers of our constitution are not sincere and loyal to the people and it doesn't matter the kind of constitution you give them except we change the key players for example it has spent so much in millions of dollars buying chukano jets have we been able to diminish terrorism against Nigeria and that is why the United States of America is even reluctant to sell to us more fighting equipment because they have not seen the seriousness of our past Alright, can you please hold the thought interesting and very explosive thoughts from you I would like to bring at this point Chief Fesuzoguche can you hear me thank you very much for your time Yes I can hear you a lot over there your colleague fellow member of the Bar he has been trying to make a case that Nigeria doesn't necessarily need a new constitution that will not be the solution to the nation's issues where do you stand on this and the basis for this of course is a call by Afebaba Lula SAEN for the members of the Bar Nigeria to jump on the train of demanding for new constitution for the country Yes I think the issue is quite very topical at this moment that we are at the crossroads of our national reality it's now beginning to dawn on us there are several so many issues underlying issues concerning our constitution that are not quite proper the Afebaba Lula was condemned seriously and wanted to find out what actually happened and maybe how he put his tone and I understand that he was saying that the president should constitute or compose an interim government and I think that is totally wrong but if it is for the call for a new constitution I think that call is quite imperative and that's the only way to go about it the present document you call a constitution is not a constitutional document if you are looking at it from the point of view of it's legitimate the point of view of it's acceptance from the point of view of even its walkability you know if you look at it from its entirety the constitution making process is quite a very, how do I put it, sacrosanct procedure it is not something you just come and impose the military of Abu Bakr Abdul Salam and he came in 1999 and said well this is the constitution and we are it is done by the people the people do not participate the participatory process makes it very important that a constitutional document right to have effect effect and force of law must have the imprimatur or the mandates of the people that's the whole essence of constitutionalism that's the whole essence of constitutional democracy so when you have a constitution that has a lot of gaps and inadequacies here and there in almost all its provisions you begin to ask questions you know if you now begin to point out these areas it will take a whole lot of the entire day but then if you look at the constitution you understand that part of the problem we are having now part of the reason why the country is just there on the floor down on its knees is because we have a constitution that is neither here nor there would you call it a constitution forget that it has been applied by the courts forget that maybe well they said we have a constitution do you really call that document a constitution you are lining with chief afebaba lola s.a.n. who said quote there is poverty in the land hunger insecurity narrow depreciation unpaid emoluments public universities have not opened for months inflation has risen the public and internal debt are rising while local production is appreciating the poor are crying while the rich are gnashing their teeth you are lining with the senior advocate of Nigeria it seems I may not align with him for his call for entering national but for his reasons he is advancing in this latest call on lawyers to put pressure on government to bring about a new constitution these are the reasons why we need a new constitution quite understanding from his perspective that one of the reasons why it has been difficult for us to make a way with this constitutional document is that each time there is a democratic system in place democratic system in court in parenthesis people will always tell you that you can always go for amendment of the constitution without necessarily creating a new constitution after all you have your members at the national assembly who are representing you hello we can hear you please there somebody is talking there you have some members at the national assembly who are representing you so why go through the hog of a constitution making and that's always the reason they advance so we want a situation that the national assembly can be kept in a bayon so that the new constitution making for black can be brought on it's quite okay I give total support from that anything that will entrench a egalitarian and perfect system of democracy a perfect system of constitutionalism I'm all for it because you cannot move forward I can bet you because you cannot move anywhere with that instrument with that document that you are banding about so yeah we're not doing the proper thing it's not just by overhauling it's amending it's amendments cannot take care of certain so you're saying we cannot move forward regarding the validity of the constitution I also talked about the issue of legitimacy I also talked about the issue of acceptance I also talked about the constitution that is a little skewed in one direction can you hear me please yeah can you hear me sir we also look at the constitution that sort of violates the sacrosanct our sacrosanct allusion yeah chief are you there all that so many issues revolving in fundamental rights directed principles and fundamental objectives of state policy all these are not perfectly pushed what is the status of local governments what is the relationship between the federated units and the center chief if you can hear me sir so you are saying the nation can't move forward not just in terms of the structure in terms of governance but also in terms of the impact of governance on the people you're talking about economic issues you're talking about social issues you're talking about insecurity you know these are all tied to the constitution our guest who is joining us says that it is not about this constitution as it is about the drivers of the constitution that with this current constitution Nigeria can still make tremendous progress in governance you know and its impact on the people are you asking me yeah so what are your thoughts to that that it's not about the constitution but about the drivers of the constitution it's all about the constitution it's not just a drive you know you cannot have a perfect society the constitutional document is a guiding authority that should generate the necessary input and output for the move towards a perfection towards a near perfect state that can be achieved it's not those that are driving it if you just out of those people who are there now in authority and bring in a new field of people you're going to see the same end look at the United States of America look at the constitution it's not a time document but it has certain principles and norms that are ineluctable they look at it as something that they attach to themselves and everything depends on the level of participation the level of involvement of the people in the constitution making process so that that loyalty cannot be questioned as far as I am concerned we have a lot of gaps in the current constitution that calls to question the validity of the constitution itself. Okay, okay, okay. Junior Oguchi let us come back to you you've had Chief Oguchi you know make his case for the constitution being the main problem and not the drivers. I just take your response to that before we round off. I quite respect the brilliant submissions of my colleague and I want to ask a simple question under the same constitution a president paid off our indebtedness so what was wrong with the constitution at that point in time under the same constitution the total indebtedness of Nigeria in 2015 match was about 12.12 trillion Naira today it's in the threshold of 39 trillion Naira and you know the inflation rate you know the unemployment rate you know the evil upon the land and that is why I am of the argument and I'm very happy he also admitted that no nation can present a perfect constitution it's because we have not moved in the direction of sustainable development look at Rwanda for example Rwanda is a brilliant example of democracy they were also in trouble and look at where they are right now you know one of the fastest growing economies and Tanzania is making progress Ghana is making progress so I quite agree if it's possible that you have a new constitution but my concern is that with the leadership that we have been having in Nigeria give them the best of constitution if they want to be corrupt and perverted they will pervert it and that is my own serious concern in all this and I believe that that is a jamming argument so having a new constitution and for it but will we implement the new constitution I just asked a simple question is it not written in Nigerian constitution right now that the primary purpose of government is the security and welfare of the people in section 14 subsection 2 of the same constitution go and read sections 15 and section 16 you will feel like fighting the government on why Nigeria should be a poor nation you see so and these are our own concerns I quite agree that there are problems in the land but I do not agree that this constitution is to be blamed for it I think those who are driving the constitution should be blamed for it and let me just anchor my argument on this position if you look at section 4 of the Nigerian constitution it says that the national assembly should make laws for the peace order and good governance of Nigeria I have asked a simple question if the country has come to this terrible situation as described by Chief Afeba Balala a land of hunger insecurity narrow deprecation unpaid emoluments public universities have not opened for months can we claim that the government has failed is there a provision for impeachment of the president under the constitution the answer is yes we have more than 970,000 and 60,000 members representing the people so for a GDO logo new constitution is welcome for me but the kernel of my argument is that with the constitution we have now even with all the shortcomings Nigeria can still be a better place than it is and that brings us to leadership I think we actually have about six letters the L stands for link we need someone who can link up with the people and link people up with one another the E stands for empowerment we need a leader that can empower the people make our infrastructure work energize the economy empower the industrial sector why should this be selling for how much is selling now why should our refineries not work is it a fault of constitution we have to quickly a round of yes indeed alright interesting final word very very brief from you chief of good chair you've had a colleague he says that you know constitution has already provisions for instance it says a primary responsibility of government is to secure the welfare and the security or to provide for the welfare and the security of the people these things are on paper so nothing stops them from doing these things so final word from you chief of good chair in response to that before we go very very short yes that we have structural problems the fact that our country is the way it is is on the shoulders of the constitution because our constitution failed to recognize the diversity of the country the uniqueness of the people and maybe the interest of the people it's not just writing in the constitution that the welfare secret of the people is the primary peoples of government if there's no constitutional limitations and directions that tend to make people empower to move towards a direction what do you expect we are looking at a constitution that will have much more value to the people that will create an electoral system that will stand the test of time and also monitor and implement government directives and policies with equal major in terms of participation of the people and not just the decision of the leadership okay okay I want to thank you very much gentlemen for your time indeed the Secretary of Nigeria said that even the law profession for it to be sustainable and in the interest of the majority of Nigerians and the country's sustenance as a whole he's urging you lawyers to support the crusade for a new concession he calls it crusade to save this country from total collapse thank you very much for your time thank you for staying with us we'll take a short break and we'll keep it at the payment of ransom to terrorists and kidnappers we'll look at this when we come back please stay with us