 Just do a brief introduction and then I give the floor to you, just for all the MBA students. Full-time MBA, this is a 12-month program that Michel and Velika are part of and we have these sessions in the parties meet the CEO, but also in view of innovation and digitalization and actually fall in both categories. Because of course as digital minister I mean what more can we wish? So you are so welcome and well especially because you're not only minister but you also have the experience of the let's say the business side as a consultant of Apple on computational linguistics. You worked for Oxford University Press where you worked on cloud lexicography. I mean what a we well I can only say we are just very eager to learn about your experience and of course COVID-19 gives it an extra dimension. I don't know how it is in your country but here we have been trying to use digital instruments to track down COVID so we've been talking about developing apps but try to see it all the time in a way. So there has been a big discussion in this country on yeah if we are going to use these apps what is the government going to do with the information and in the end we don't have an app. So I'm sure you have similar challenges so thank you so much minister for joining us and thank you for Michel and Velika to make this possible for all of us. Thank you so much the floor is yours. Excellent hello everyone I'm really happy to be here and share with you this is a ask me anything and we have two hours and so just just feel free to to start thinking of what to ask me and we will be using something called Slido. Can you see my screen at the moment? Yes we can yes yes we can see great right so using computer you can go to slido.com slash 605 without a pencil or with the pencil actually works both ways but if you are using a phone you can also scan the QR code either way so either way we will enter this chat room where you can ask synonymously anonymously or with your real name any question and the main reason of using the very the chat room is that you can vote each other's questions so the question with the most number of votes will float to the top while the latest question will appear on the bottom right slide and so if you just start asking questions and are voting each other's questions this will be as if I'm having a real time conversation with the entire class but of course also feel free to unmute yourself and speak your questions if you feel that I have not answered something to your satisfaction so this is very dynamic please start putting whatever on Slido now and maybe as simple as saying hi or things like that just to make sure that the system works on both ends so oh here you go you're a very reactive bunch so an anonymous person would like to say not hi but rather who which is great and I'll just say who not sorry anyway why not and then so it would go like this where I highlight one question and go to another and so on and someone says oh that which is great as well right so just a brief introduction of where I am that's great please keep it going so just a brief introduction of where I'm at I mean the social innovation lab in Taiwan so and hi this is in Mandarin characters and here you can see that this is actually a park so I'm holding this cam and you can look outside of the window and there's just random people I think they're holding a digital opportunity class outdoors you can see some Lego blocks showing the global goals I think that's 11 3 and 17 if I'm not mistaken you can judge by its color and then outdoors there's a basketball also many people are trying out new extended reality and stuff like audioscape so the main point is that I am literally working in a park and I walk to to work every day every morning and walk back and everybody can just drop in and have 40 minutes of my time and just chatting about pretty much anything the only thing I ask is that everything that transpires in this room and indeed in all the meetings that I hold is on public record and so you can see the public transcripts of everything that I work as a minister there's in the past three and a half years more than 1000 meetings with more than 5000 people over 200 000 speeches including internal meetings and this is called radical transparency and it makes sure that when lobbyists come to me they argue only on public benefits for example David Kluf visited me early on and argued for Uber to get introduced in Taiwan and the very first thing you know is doorbell because this thing is not only on textual record it is actually on 360 video record you can put on v-heart glass and relive the conversation and then at the end of it David said I do think there's some details that we can work out I said as the local team to send you stuff I'm like just not everything is in my will we will make public and so this is very interesting because then all his arguments is based on you know reducing traffic jam reducing pollution mitigating climate change and things like that better utilization of public transportations by the public roads open data different collaboratives and so on because in this setting there's literally no way to lobby in a way that only benefits your company at the expense of other companies that's how radical transparency works and so in the digital social innovation we use the same principle to counter the coronavirus and this is not the wrong slide this is actually the right slide with cute dogs and that explains physical distancing cover your mouth and nose when sneezing don't put the head to your mouth remembering to pre-order your medical mask and all these are just creative people making their variations on the same using creative commons materials including mine picture and the dog's picture the dog is not shutter stock literally is a companion animal of the participation officer of our health and welfare ministry so in each ministry with an extended team of people who are in charge of public engagement and the health and welfare one lives with this dog so whenever we have a daily press conference and introduce a new measures to counter coronavirus they just translated into an internet meme with the dog where people can very freely translate and remix and so that's another part of it in addition to radical transparency this also produced tons of creative commons materials that people can freely remix and increase the R note value the basic transmission rate of good ideas that they are ideas worth spending and that is that our basic counter disinformation strategy which is called humor over rumor and so the main idea of humor over rumor then is to make sure that we proactively share scientific knowledge you already saw my meeting transcripts and scientific physical distancing stuff and we also react within a couple hours whenever there's any trending rumor with a higher basic transmission rate than one for example back in a couple months ago in April there was a conspiracy theory there's an internet rumor that says because Taiwan is ramping up medical mass production from 2 million a day to 20 million a day we're going to soon run out of tissue papers because it's the same material of course it's not but the rumor says it is so it provokes outrage and have a higher basic transmission rate than one so within a couple hours our premier our prime minister who looks like this that's our prime minister Sudin Chang posted this on the social media which is the backside of our premier and he's showing his bottoms weakling it a little bit and then was a huge caption that says each of us only have one pair of bottoms which means that it doesn't make sense to stock pile of tissue papers and so this is hilarious I mean this this whole picture is packaged like a tissue paper box and so it went viral and people saw this table this is an important table that says the tissue paper I've made out of the South American materials while medical mass are made of domestic materials so that's the payload of this meme but people who saw this and laughed about it gets vaccinated it's literally impossible for joy and anger to coexist in the kind of control panel of the mind if you have watched the film inside out and so when this colored tissue paper yellow mean that people associate with humor and joyful mood the conspiracy theory stops being viral it reduces the R0 value of that conspiracy theory and indeed we can see through social media that it decreases and the conspiracy theory dies down within a couple of days just as with pandemic and so we counter the infodemic by making sure that our humor versus rumor have a higher transmission rate and that people who contacted this meme you know gets vaccinated inoculated against this information so we don't have to resort to takedowns or lockdowns to counter the infodemic so that's the humor over rumor part that is also a lot of engagement strategy broadly based on this so I'm just beginning with this kind of random five-minute talk so that you have time to enter your questions so like by now is there anything anybody who want to talk about you can also instead of using slide it just start speaking I would have a question but I wanted to give the students first but could I ask it now yes so so how do you cope since I'm looking at the Netherlands and we have I think using digital tools is really difficult at this time of COVID where we see clear advantages just like with the electronic patient file we see clear advantages but time over time we fail to implement them in the Netherlands in a yeah in a smooth way because all the time privacy is in the way and then even though people see the advantages and they share probably more with you know on Facebook and in all kind of other social outlets social media outlets but if it comes to doing something as the government is always opposed how do you deal with that how can you actually implement as a digital minister I'm sure you you have this on a daily basis how do you do that well by making sure that it is the people who develop this technology and people who control those technologies we are in not in the business of state surveillance we are in the business of making a state transparent to the people not the people transparent to the state and because we're a liberal democracy and so if you look at the co-hack which is the counter coronavirus collaboration hackathon co-hack you can see easily that all the top winning teams from seven countries are privacy enhancing technologies for example let's just look at logboard logboard is a system that records the health information of individuals before they arrive at hospitals so they focus on building your kind of self-reported symptoms temperatures we're aware about or whatever but it works in airplane mode it never transmits anything to anyone not even bluetooth or anything so it's purely your kind of electronic diary however if the contact chasing medical officer come and visit you and ask where have you been in the past 14 days then this generates a one-time link and and this is exactly with only the precise information that is needed by contact tracing and none of the privacy information of the other people that you have met or anything like that and so basically this proactively protects privacy by acting in the citizen's best interest because as opposed to traditional interviews where you can divulge more private details of all your friends and families than this kind of tools this actually helps you safeguarding your friends and family's privacy while still getting the kind of absolutely minimal information that the contact tracers need and so this serves at the best interest of the person and it's open source everybody can take a look at it and there's an international organization called my data and this is the taiwan chapter of it and autonomy uses distributed ledger to do this on the neighborhood scale where people who care a lot about each other's house can share data between them but it never goes to a cloud that is to say it never goes to a centralized database and gemini makes a visual storytelling of the transit visualization so that people can get themselves informed again without involving a centralized state or capitalist multinational and so there's a kind of theme to the taiwanese model of social innovation is what i call data collaborative is variously called data trust data coalition data co-op data there's a lot of words for that but the main idea is very simple is that the social sector keeps every stakeholder accountable and so this is one such example the real time medical mask map right anywhere in taiwan you can see your nearby pharmacy how many adult masks are in stock and how many children's and you can use your national health insurance card to go there and swipe it and collect nine if you're adult and 10 if you're a child every two weeks but this instead of being published every day or every week is published every 30 seconds so this is precisely like a distributed ledger because everybody can go to a pharmacy collect those nine masks wait a couple of minutes refresh the map or 100 tools like chat box voice assistance and actually see the number decrease by nine or 10 and so if it rather increases you will call one night two two right you will call that see see something wrong it's going on and so is there something written on the taiwanese model so to speak is there something that we can read about it because i would have to send this to our government there's a website called taiwan can help that us i pronounce taiwan can help us and the main picture is who can help taiwan and and this is even more interesting because this is not a government website this is just going through a lot of iterations by crowdfunded youtubers and crowd sourced content so if you do go to taiwan can help that us you can see that this is entirely in this in the social sector and and this is this shows all the people who crowdfunded to make it a reality acute animation that ask who can help taiwan can help in a time of isolation which is solidarity a timeline of the pandemic and a crash course and this crash course is voiced by a famous youtuber dr chen jian ren the top epidemiologist at the academician that literally wrote an epidemiology textbook and also our vice president if you know the idea i'm fair advantage this is a fair advantage literally the person who knows the most about epidemiology was the vice president when the coronavirus outbreak happens so the epidemiologist just doesn't need to convince the vice president because he is the language is to share with and then the people with the russian mask they can also dedicate their uncollected quota maybe they have some to spare to international audience so we gave out like five million masks in the name of more than 600 000 citizens half of them chose to be anonymous half of them chose to review their name so you can see exactly who dedicated how many masks uh so for international humanitarian assistance so i have a question for my a look uh a look can you please unmute and ask your question hi audrey good morning uh sorry i don't know what time it is in taiwan can you hear me yes yes yeah uh good morning interestingly slido doesn't allow big questions so so i have to switch on my mic uh it's very uh interesting to see uh rumor uh oh sorry humor over rumor i think it's very creative uh and it looks pretty good uh i have a question uh when you were talking about how to discourage lobbying uh in the country and making it public my question is how far do you go to make it public uh i'm sure there are deals involved there are pricing structure and there are some confidentially clark confidentiality clause and there is a fair practice clause also involved how far you go in the public and uh and how far you do that to win the trust of the people because at some point of the time i think people get engaged hooked on to it and when they don't see uh those data points because that's the expectation builder you're building also expectation for people right in the public so that's my question how far you go there yeah so great question so if you go to visit.pedis.tw visit.pdis.tw you will see exactly how we do it is a protocol of handling official visits to main and it says that there's only a few exemption uh exemptions like um elected public officials uh and foreign nationals that are professional diplomats other than that um everything should be made public and the verbatim transcript is to be published it allows 10 days of co-editing and that's when if you bring up an anecdote about your acquaintance who have not cleared that for public uh you know reading then you can read that that but everybody can only edit their own part of the speech so on the most extreme case you will see me talking to myself because the other party have removed every single thing from the transcript and that is allowed i will essentially rephrase their question uh to me and so um you will see then for example recently there's such a visit and you can see um there's this person with the name question and where i essentially just repeats their question uh and then but in a way that doesn't compromise their details because there may be some whistleblowing involved there may be some power imbalances involved and so this is a very considerate um um protocol but i always publish everything that i said within the context so so i think that is uh the protocol feel free to uh console the protocol we we put a lot of care in designing that um do i go to yeah yeah no thank you so much i think it answers my question but there are a few questions but i'll park it for later so maybe i'll go to the slido questions yes are okay with that i mean there are three votes so okay so um the question trending now uh is quote when you make decisions to tackle a particular situation let's say the rumors about the tissues or if it was any internal oppositions and how do you tackle it unquote no there's no internal opposition uh back when we complain that people the government doesn't respond quick enough to people's uh questions and trending uh issues we occupy the parliament back in the 2014 to demand transparency uh that's called the sunflower movement um and so because of that uh at that time taiwan was deliberating a trade deal the cross-strait service and trade agreement was Beijing uh and more than 20 NGOs mobilized this uh occupy which is completely peaceful over three weeks half a million people on the street many more online and every day we inches toward the rough consensus using deliberative technologies including digital and analog and so after the occupy everybody who is for this kind of uh real-time conversation uh gets elected as mayors sometimes to their surprise and uh people who oppose this kind of um you know uh humor over a rumor or open government or whatever they lost their election uh and so that uh marks a shift in the political norm uh basically everybody is for it this is uh open government is one of the very rare thing uh that our parliament all the four parties agrees on that of course i'm non-partisan uh of course agree on that but i'm very happy to see that is one of the least divisive issue in taiwanese politics in that the government should respond in the here and now to the people through radical transparency and participation um any follow-up questions or i'll just go to clemont's question um um i i i think first those questions um perhaps the next question on that's yeah that you have um i think sabri as of clemont clemont yeah clemont yes then one said do you find radical transparency that can push some people or organization off from discussing with me or does it generally always push them to be open um suddenly uh there are people who just refrained uh from discussing um these issues because the things they were gone is essentially uh to their own profit but to the detriment of other people uh and these people do not come to my office out for obvious reasons uh it's just like my office uh half of my office are delegates from each ministry who are second months in in essence uh to my office so from each and every ministry there can be one delegate uh and so well they are a very cheerful bunch but in the case so what i'm trying to get at is that um so this is actually a a police from the ministry of interior uh and from the national development council uh and from the ministry of culture um national communication commission ministry of education of law of foreign affairs basically all the pretty much all the people facing uh ministries have uh dispatched one circumference because we don't allow for more than one uh in the team and so this is a entirely cross functional team and they still report to their ministers i'm not their kind of new boss rather i ask them only to work out loud that is to say to share their innovation with the public the civil society and so even internally this way of radical transparency breaks silos because then they can share their best practices uh and they can find that their values do align actually on sustainability and many other things with other ministries they don't have to invent everything alone within their ministry and so that changes the culture so that when i tour around taiwan in addition to my um you know weekly uh wednesday office hour i tour around taiwan uh every other tuesday or so and sometimes also weekends and go to the most remote places the indigenous nations uh the remote islands the places that are fall from taipei and i just live with the people there maybe for a night or two uh doing a ethnographic um hanging out uh with people uh and then people would just uh learn to trust me a little bit and then start speaking their hopes and fears and worries and when we do that it's entirely local it's just me who travels but everybody in the social innovation lab all the 12 ministries i just mentioned their section chiefs and above are in taipei or other municipality joining through extended reality this virtual meeting room so that is a town hall for local people they just show up to the town hall but the central government respond to them in the here and now and that also cuts through a lot of bureaucracy because then people can just innovate and see their innovation getting amplified through this continuous integration of social ideas and we attract everything as social innovation to taiwan the gov that tw and the best ideas if they're against the rules then actually they get a year or half a year usually a year to try out that their version of the rules is better than our version of the rules that's called a regulatory sandbox it could be around self-driving vehicles fintech platform economy 5g you name it other than i think money laundry and funding terrorism because we know how that would turn out everything else is very game and you can challenge any part of the rule making so this is open innovation right if it the new rule around e-school tests for example or whatever fails then we thank the investors they paid a lot everybody learned a little bit it's like reverse lottery but if it wins then they have the first mover advantage and so it's a very flexible with regulatory co-creation with the innovators while ensuring also this is the front door of this my office social innovation lab while also ensures that when people bring in like self-driving tricycles they can work with the nearby market literally anyone who walks into the park to co-create the norms around self-driving vehicles for example people said that because there's a flower market nearby they have a lot of heavy flower pots they want to use it as shopping carts as essentially things that follow them around rather than that they sit on it so they can do hand-free shopping and if they get that fool then the platooning kicks in and then this steps back a little bit summon another one so you have a fleet of self-driving shopping carts that can help you navigating the flower market and so this norm first approach interacts with the market sets the perimeter for code and then very regulatory co-creation making sure that people can modify it however they want like in a flower market you will want this to have two eyes not to see it use LiDi it doesn't really need those eyes however it shows who they're following and things like that there's social code domestication of immersion technologies so to answer your question anyone who want to break the law can go to meet me but only if they're breaking the law to create a better new law if they're breaking the law just for black hat purposes that is to say to their benefit and other people's detriment then of course they do not need a sandbox application just like you know if they're funding terrorists or doing money laundering they don't come to see me I have a question because you're also a filmmaker how as a minister do you still have time to to and do you and if not do you miss it because these are two different worlds and I can imagine that they can inspire you at the same time but do you miss it or do you still have time to make films I have time to code I have time to to make creative work and also even translate some poetry because I'm a politician I'm not a politician so as a politician that's a new word as a politician my main work is poetry and so a film whatever is just extension of that poetry so I often said I'm a lower case minister means that I advocate and preach about sustainability and digital innovation but I'm not an uppercase minister where I order you around and this is important because I believe the power of art really moves the social innovations around that cute dog picture and many cute dog picture films is the key to get people into the very good hand sanitation habits the short films that prompts people to wear medical mask as a social signal to sigh I'm washing my hands I'm not touching my face that is even more effective than say you know wearing a mask respects other people or some other altruistic incentive so if you do your incentive design right in a very short film like 15 seconds or a minute you can get the idea that's worth spreading spread and that is how we fight the pandemic together by getting everybody to say oh we can improve on it that's remixing that's also part of the contemporary culture about video making sure and what is your latest work I mean I'm sure love but what is the last thing the last thing is is literally me speaking to the camera in a very short five and a half well almost six minute video about the fast fear and fun and we play that video in the mini lateral meeting of 14 countries I think three days before the world health assembly and so we have talent health is own mini lateral of top health officials where we share the fast fear and fun principles and that was the film you can find it on actually the homepage of p this public digital innovation space if you go to p this that tw as I just did this is actually the latest film where you can see me talking about digital social innovation is also properly captioned and stuff oh wonderful thank you we'll have a look at it yeah so I guess that there are some questions uh from uh let me see I see no screen or is that not a question uh yeah it's a is a question it is a question it's just lacks the question mark is a unmarked question so um the the question is around uh digital identity and uh the ids in particular distributed uh self sovereign uh digital identities so uh do you think it will be solved by governments existing tech giants or attack startups all of the above the the great thing about the d i d is that everybody can be part of the ecosystem uh and it's just like the open web or the internet that's the inter in the internet whereas each network operator is free to operate their own local network they have to agree on basic like the border gateway protocols the internet exchange protocols of course the internet protocol itself whether the fourth or the sixth version to participate in the inter part of the internet and because the internet engineering task force where I also contributed has no army or navy we really cannot force any telecom operator to use our solutions so we need to do what I just shared with you which is through uh radical transparency radical participation to show that there is some shared value among all the different positions among stakeholders so actually my work in a taiwan digital public innovation space is to take internet governance and just project it also on the you know good old bureaucracy and it seems to be working and so distributed identities is one such issue that internet lacks that layer at the very beginning because it used to be a very small network and now we're kind of building that part in using the latest w3c and itf specs and the great thing about those specs is that is a multi-sector approach where you can see the editor be a tech giant actually the main work may be done by a tech startup or vice versa and the great thing about permissionless innovation and into the innovation is that any spec doesn't preclude a better spec from happening bitcoin to don't stop ethereum from happening and so I think that will continue to evolve and I think the main thing that we the policymakers need to do is to follow closely so that the algorithms they may lead the society a little bit but ultimately it is the social norms that lead the technologist so that for example AI become assistive rather than artificial intelligence so that's my main reading it's a multi-stakeholder approach time management so two people three now so I used the good old pomodoro method where I work you know 25 minutes at the time and I internalize that so I have a kind of gut feeling that I'm inching toward the 25 minutes past the clock or 55 minutes past the clock then I take five minutes off and do some social media stuff and so my point here is that the pomodoro method is less about this 30-minute chunks although they help but rather this is about getting up in the morning and setting your priority straight for the day and if you continue to do that then you can make sure that you delegate everything including the active delegation to other people and then you can focus on the creative work that you enjoy that's how I remain a politician even becoming a digital minister and so in a sense we're making a film together because it's a recorded session but at the point here is that if you do not feel like you are the best person to do something you can take 25 minutes to delegate other way and that applies even to the act of finding out who is the best person to delegate I think that is management so then what is best exercise I don't know I mean I walk sometimes quickly to the social innovation lab and back that's pretty much the only exercise but I regularly do that and the trick of getting up early in the morning even though it's raining and do that walk is because I put all my devices in my office in my home there is no touch screens the only phone that I keep is a landline and then Nokia 8 1 1 0 where there's no touch screen there's the phone that Neo uses in the matrix movie so anyway so the point here is that by depriving myself of touch screens and broadband connectivity and in my home I get up and I need to get some work done so I better start working quickly to the office so that's how I motivate my daily exercise routine it may or may not apply to you so Sabry has a compliment and thank you for the compliment do we move on or are there follow-up questions I think the question what is your ambition for Taiwan I see I find an interesting one what is it that you are going to what is your vision for the next year or the next few months next year so I predict and with some accuracy and firmly it's my conviction that a year from now the peak of Taiwan the severe the jade mountain will raise by three to five centimeters and that's a geological fact Taiwan is rising toward the sky and and this is because we're caught between the tectonic flights of the Eurasian plate on one side and the Philippine sea plate on the other and they bump into each other all the time so we have earthquake all the time but because we're very resilient we build our structures in a way that survives earthquakes both physical ones and ideological ones and so that after each earthquake Taiwan rises a little bit more toward the sky and that's my idea around transculturalism Taiwan has more than 20 national languages each representing indigenous Austronesian new immigrants all sorts of different cultures including multi-stakeholder internet culture hacker culture and so all these cultures just bump into one another because we're a place with absolute freedom of speech according to the only country in Asia with absolute freedom of speech sometimes they create innovations that no other cultures can see for example when we legalized marriage equality a year ago we legalized all the bylaws that is to say the rise and duties of marriage but none of the in-laws that is to say the family relationships and that's the Taiwanese innovation that take care of the cultures of the more old people of people of which to them the east Asian marriage is rather a marriage between two families like Romeo and Juliet era stuff and for the younger people it's mostly about two individuals so we create a hyperlink act and hyperlinked the same-sex marriage only to the bylaws and not the in-laws and that's after two referendum and one constitutional court ruling pleased everybody the vast majority of people are now happy in Taiwan about marriage equality unlike many other jurisdictions so that's a real example of how this ideological earthquake ends up letting us rise toward a sky and on a higher shared value vantage point so I see Taiwan continue doing that among all the different global goals you want to answer one of the questions there I hesitate because most of question now only have one vote I don't know whether it's other people maybe you want to vote on the questions a little bit anyway so the next question says from the government perspective how does the government gain trust from citizens when using digital tools and how it to be developed in the future after the crisis so we gain the trust from the citizens by trusting the citizens to give no trust is to get no trust and by trusting the citizens we remain not only radical transparency that makes sure that people understand why of policy making not just a what of the policy we also make sure that anyone who want to improve it can do so because it's open api and or open source that is to say when people want to tweak those ideas they do not have to ask for a patent or a license or anything they can just work on the data collaborative so I will use one example to illustrate the point this is called air box so this is what you're seeing is the pm 2.5 level I think of Taiwan and each dot is a measurement station of micro sensor from a person's home balcony or more likely than a primary school because they use it to teach data stewardship and so I think this picture is quite out actually three years out of that at this point there's close to 10 000 measurement stations like this so covering pretty much all parts of Taiwan that has people and so people can very easily see what is the temperature or pollution or whatever like in the civil iot system which is entirely led by the social sector and when they built this the environment minister only have less than 100 measurement points even though very precise they're very far away from people so if you have two numbers one from very far away and run by the government and one run out by your primary school teacher in the nearby primary school we're probably going to trust school teachers numbers and so there's strength in numbers and because they published every real-time measurement to a distributed ledger so it keeps people honest right you cannot go back in time and modify the time the measurement numbers and so they gain legitimacy and in Taiwan we always say we can't be the social sector we must join the social sector so we sat down and found out what they need and turns out they allow the government the environment minister to calibrate their senses to produce it in a more cheap production facility while remaining stable in all humidity levels but in exchange of the government using their numbers they asked us to complete the puzzle to put measurement stations on some noticeable gaps and those gaps are in industrial parks these are private properties and so they cannot just break and enter and install those measurement stations and so it turns out that we own the lab the municipal and certain government own the lab in the industrial parks so we made an agreement made a deal so that we make government data using also micro sensors and we share that in a I think top 20 supercomputer in the world the national high-speed computing center so that people working on elliptics models and algorithms can do in place computation to predict the weather and the pollution level and that has been extended to water box and so on so the main point about data collaboratives here is that when the social sector knows exactly how it works it controls the data or at least is part of the distributed ledger then of course they trust each other more and they can choose trust the government or not but the government gets legitimacy by saying we're joining not replacing the social sector work and that is that the trick of gaining the trust from the citizens by making sure that we maximally trust the citizens so after the pandemic because we never closed any schools there's been zero lockdowns in Taiwan and it's been like 30 days or so with no local confirmed cases but we're now moved firmly in the post-pandemic the CEC is now touring around Taiwan just as I do and enjoying the local food and live streaming a lot of it and so we're firmly moving in the direction we're even giving out the stimulus coupons so the same like mask map and civil society made mask distribution visualization it's now being repurposed for our stimulus package which is also a very interesting mechanism design you can just spend I think three thousand Taiwan dollars which is around I don't know 100 euros 90 euros and if you spend 90 euros and the government understand you have spent it not on e-commerce but on like real face-to-face consumption then you can go to a nearby tele-machine a nearby ATM and then out of those 90 euros you get 60 euros back as cash like a cash back program it will probably also spend that cash and so that's the stimulus package because we over rely on the e-commerce and delivery and contact with delivery and so on during the pandemic we're now resuming face-to-face commerce and the stimulus package is basically participatory where people just engage in working with each other to choose the kind of values that they do for example I'm going to focus on the social enterprises that can maximize this transparency like the human rights watch or whatever and if they have services or products I'm going to spend my stimulus 90 euros there and maybe actually adding a lot more to it and I'll get the cash back and use that as a social signal to say oh I'm then spending this to another pro-social enterprise and so this offers plenty of chance for people to brag in social media how much public benefit they have caused by their stimulus consumption and again this is all of society mobilization process so that's where we're going after the pandemic it's not like all all over but it's been very healthy and safe in Taiwan there's more votes I'm happy to see more of us eight people would like to know can you throw some light on the string relationship with the PRC with China I understand recently China blocked Taiwan's seat add to the WHA for the COVID discussion well as I said we held our own mini electoral and hosting the virtual meeting from the Ministry of Health and Welfare and I would say with a much higher broadband video quality than the actual WHA but in any case what we found is that the international community really likes the Taiwan model because we strengthen democracy strengthen liberal democracy while countering the pandemic whereas many jurisdictions being faced with this false dilemma between say you know human rights on one side and public health on the other and so any part of the Taiwan model is kind of automatically applicable to a liberal democracy ranging from the daily press conference to the medical mask to the local CEO humor versus rumor and so on and so it's a epicenter to epicenter collaboration and it doesn't matter whether we're a member observer or whatever because the seat order you can't really see them when you're on a teleconference actually you can rearrange the window however you want once so the diplomatic protocols are being reshaped and the top medical offices previously very difficult to invite to online conferences are now you know trapped in their home anyway and so we can very easily invite them to join our online conferences but actually I've been doing this very regularly now so in IGF the internet governance forum which is part of the UN we gave a talk in UN Geneva in the IGF but entirely through tele robotics so the digital double of me basically spoke in the UN in Geneva however because they check the passports they cannot allow people with Taiwanese passport in but I went in anyway as a robot as you can see here that's me yeah so and then and then the robot can turn it can walk around it can talk to people and can share our ideas around this opportunity and so on and so it's a new diplomatic norm and while the people from the PRC on their data protest at the end it's just playing a movie even though the movie was recorded two seconds ago but it's still just playing a movie and my words are on the record and the PRC ambassador did not leave the room meaning that they think it's okay with a certain UN resolution so I've been doing this pretty regularly since then to now I'm just very happy that the top medical officers and many other officers are now embracing the same technology as I did in 2017 but I chose that back at the time not only to challenge the diplomatic norm but also because I adjust my job like very slowly I generally don't like long distance travel and also I want to reduce the carbon footprint by air travel so we'll continue doing many laterals over internet and our multi-stakeholder forums so seven people would like to know which advice would you give future leaders of bureaucratic organizations either private or public or social or to initiate a culture change toward co-creation and agility so I'll share my HR policy first so as I said every ministry that's facing the society now probably wants to send dispatches and segments to my office and when I do my HR evaluation there's only two things that I look at first this person need to bring a fresh perspective need to complement the existing team members on a new way of looking at things which means they probably have a different background different training different you know intersectionality of neurodiversity and things like that so if they are too much like one another then that doesn't work so there's a fresh perspective and the second thing is that they need to of course still serve their minister but they need to be willing to share to give at least as much as they are taking from the team back to their ministry and that's it and so that ensures a culture where giving the gift economy works and there's no free riders and everybody benefits from a fresh pair of eyes and there's no kind of virus of the mind no ideology that can overcome peter's because everybody is so neuroly diverse so just like biodiversity protects against contamination pandemic what our ideological biodiversity political biodiversity ensures that whichever petitions sandboxes presidential hackathon topics that throws at the scene there's someone at the scene who can take that person's side so that enable our office to take all the sides and when the office can take all the sides within a large organization the entire organization will support you in your mission it's only when you're perceived as taking one particular side at the expense of the other where you'll be in trouble so the key of co-creation is taking all the sides and a key to agility is to assemble a maximally diverse team that are as much willing to help as they're here to learn seven people would like to know as i know you're a civic kaka still am before and after becoming the digital minister happy to see the lowercase minister will trigger you want to promote information transparency and system participation well that's that's literally how i i learned i mean that's my native culture um so back in 1996 when i was 15 years out i did a few science fails and discovered this great website called archive.org where people publish their preprints they're still around there's many archives now and the future of human knowledge is being created on the preprint service and all my textbooks were out of date so i just told my teachers that i want to quit junior high and start my education on the world web and surprisingly all my teachers agree with that and and the principal even said okay from tomorrow you don't have to go to school anymore and so basically uh the bureaucracy was very innovative that supported me uh in doing my startups and doing my ventures and doing my university studies co-creating uh with professors over the internet over the preprint service and because i work with those innovative bureaucrats for lack of better time i'm remain very optimistic about the innovative capacity of bureaucrats and of course the web itself is a open multi-stakeholder political system so i immersed myself in that system for six years before i even have the right to vote and and so for me that's my native political system i only know that political system before the legal age and by that time i'm thoroughly naturalized uh in the internet hacker culture and so for me it's literally the only way of doing politics which is poetics and then the only way to promote engagement which is open multi-stakeholder engagement and i think it's a rare point in the history where people who occupy the parliament successfully agreed under four demand not one less uh at 2014 during the sunflower and it's very rare that the head of parliament agreed with all of them it was a successful occupy and one of the demand is to build a grassroots civic forum on constitutional reform that enabled our rethink on how the government works with the people not for the people and so i'm very grateful for that so five people would like to know how do you ensure the new sandbox laws are not detrimental to society during the six and 12 months while they're being trial well we ask for the best white hat hackers uh to give them a try um and so penetration testing very important we dedicate five to seven percent of all our it budget just to cybersecurity and in the next four years we're expanding that to five to seven percent of the entire budget of all new endeavors which is a huge amount of money and so if you're a white hat hacker in taiwan the ethical hacker in taiwan you get very well paid there's pen testing opportunities everywhere and you get recognized as national heroes you meet with the president and minister all the time so that you don't fall to the dark side which has more cookies and so by working with the white hat hackers we ensure that the cybersecurity even for our proving ground at the shaolin taiwan car lab out on the striving lab is pen tested for six months before it even opened to the fifth self-driving vehicle so that's for the cybersecurity part and then for the social norm part just by making sure that those vehicles drive very very slowly and so if they run into things or people they just run into things or people they don't hurt things or kill people and and then we look at the post more than and see how to improve and so I think next week or so type of city will apply what we have learned during the tricycle and start the post midnight self-driving bus I think capacity is around 35 people and they use the same dedicated bus lane so it's like software defined tracks and of course people have already plenty of time working with dedicated bus lanes so it doesn't create any new social norm and it basically always can stop quite quickly when they detect something in front of it and this of course there's still somebody on the car at a very very beginning as a trainer to push the brake if not you know speeding it up so that that is all a kind of gradual way of making sure that society expects what to do when they're self-driving vehicles instead of top down way where the government think oh this must be a smart city you know what we're saying is that you're all smart citizens you can help figuring it out so for people who would like to know I have experienced both in business and also in the government how do I think those rules can cooperate with the law related to digital development great question so by law there's of course code is law but the textual normativity that the law as we know it have a kind of human judges that provides access to justice so you can break the law for example occupying the parliament and then the judge will find that oh it's civil disobedience so that it's actually not a crime however in algorithmic law often there really is no way to break it it's like the physics law if the internet protocols are designed in such a way that all the partnering ps need to adhere to a set of protocol it's literally unimaginable to be part of the internet while breaking the protocol while breaking the internet protocol because by definition internet is the ps that adhere to the internet protocol and so it forecloses possibilities which is why permissionless and to an innovation is so important because otherwise the algorithmic normativity can preclude certain innovations from happening and there may be capturing ways of essentially just buying all the companies that produce better technologies that actually are detrimental to the evolution of new ideas and so I think the state at the moment the government can help breaking the octopus breaking the the kind of institutional investments and other kind of defective controllership defective monopoly over the development of technology to empower small and medium enterprises and social innovators to create their own visions of chartered cities or chartered social innovation labs that run by their own rules and work with the people to show that it's bad or good and businesses can help scaling out such developments and work in a way instead of just doing social responsibility one can do business development by proving that one can work in circular design in other pro-environmental and pro-social ways because not to avoid social sanction although in Taiwan mostly they do it to avoid social sanction but also social preferential buying which is what we're doing with our stimulus coupons and so I think the state can design the mechanism such that each participating business in order to maximize their self-utility also incidentally maximizes or at least optimize a little bit the externalities and that is how we mean by participatory mechanism design one example which is very quickly following up the on the air box of the same team in the presidential hackathon did a water box and the water box is given to all the businesses that manufacture things in agri-cland because we have a law that says if you are in the agri-cland for farming use and you produce anything that pollutes the river the waterways then the ministry of economy can actually shut down your electricity and water directly and so this is a pretty powerful mandate and of course what the business said it's not me who pollute is my upstream that pollutes and so just like the air box the water box is a solar powered small box that you can just drop in the waterway and it uses a zero g network to ride to a distributed ledger the top three pollutants in the water is very cheap and so the farmers can just use it to detect pollutions from upstream or the business that are not polluting are incentivized to also install these in their waterways to prove its upstream that is polluting at the end of it everybody have a distributed ledger that shows and it's easier than air because the air has different dissemination models in water you can pinpoint which place do the pollutions happen and once you have a shared landscape like that of course the business will be pro-environment and pro-social because really that is in their best interest and there will be incentivized author to help guarding the waterways again that's because that's in their best interest so public governance using distributed ledgers has such a possibility to transform digitally the incentive structure around externalities and businesses Audrey here's Velika and I think now is around 10 o'clock in Netherlands and around four o'clock in Taiwan and I find there's still a lot of question on the slido and thinking it's a good to have a quick coffee break then we will beg around the 10 after 10 is it okay to you it's cool then we will yeah and we're back sure um I think most of our partners um on the online now yeah I think we can resume the session yeah okay um the anonymous person or maybe an AI that there are two camps of AI development uh and to work what they consider singularity how do I see the concept of singularity and how do I position my role uh to control okay or ship uh or I don't know escape uh innovation uh or camp for so um I'll read you my job description and and that uh is why I call myself a politician uh and some of you may already know my job description but I'm going to read it um so um back in 2016 when I first become digital minister I told our HR department that this is my job description uh 17 18 17 17 that is to say reliable data effective partnership and open innovation and positioning you know at this midpoint in the vendor of the clinical goals and um because SDGs were very fresh at that time right it's rolled out in 2015 so by 2016 it's a very new thing uh and HR people said minister this is too new nobody's going to uh know what you mean by 17 18 17 and 17 6 you have to speak in plain language and so I just translated that into plain language as my job description which I'll read it to you now my job description read uh when we see the internet of things let's make it an internet of beings when we see virtual reality let's make it a shared reality when we see machine learning let's make it collaborative learning when we see user experience let's make it about human experience and whenever we hear that the singularity is near let's always remember the plurality if that's my job description uh and so to me uh this is my answer to the question the plurality it's yeah the transcultural republic of citizens which is my English translation of the country name um is actually very uh plural in the sense that there is really no single driving value that mobilizes the social movement the maybe only thing that we can agree is that we're a liberal democracy and we're here to help the world otherwise we disagree on pretty much everything and so any vision of singularity um is um ineffective in taiwan's political and social landscape people would want to augment to assist each other and their intelligence but they want to be smart citizens none of them want to be smart city residents uh and um people don't want to be just users we don't teach in the school media literacy we teach media competence which makes sure that people are producers not consumers of media so on and so forth and so that is my answer to the question i i do not think there is a single singularity i think there is a plural of pluralities and that is the reality here in taiwan um four people would like to know probably as well yeah excellent yeah uh do you have a concern in terms of like okay well outside entities uh let's say in other nations or other developments of ai and iot's uh do you have a concern that their agenda may deviate from your agenda uh of pluralities of course not only deviate they're working in completely opposite directions right uh when we say radical transparency we mean making the state radically transparent to citizens uh whereas in some nearby jurisdictions when they say transparency they mean making the citizens transparent to the state um in so same word different meaning uh and the coronavirus pandemic only amplified that so now the state is even more transparent to citizens compared to pre-pandemic but in some nearby jurisdictions namely the prc the citizens is even more transparent to the state than before the pandemic and so it's a great amplifier and amplify the core philosophy of all the jurisdictions and i think there there's room the earth is big enough for different governance mechanisms to to grow but of course we want to make sure that our creativity can flow freely without any you know threat of extinction or things like that and we also provide a safe harbor for nearby jurisdictions which previously we rely on their journalists to keep our uh government accountable uh like when there was still martial law as to remember the days of the martial law we rely on the journalists from hong kong and sometime from thailand uh to keep our um uh government accountable now of course their journalists are looking up to taiwan and specifically for hong kong there's many international journalists as national students are now seeking humanitarian aid here in taiwan which we're providing and so the point here is that we're happy to contribute to our vision the pluralistic vision we're not saying that this is the only one in the planet but we think this is a better one and we invite everybody who think this is a better way of innovation to participate in the coalition of the willing of the open innovators so html my favorite technology so the next question is in my opinion what are in what field with the next big digital technology breakthrough something on the same level as the internet cloud the html and so on and so forth so first of all html doesn't work without the http they're equally important uh sorry i have this nerd immunity thing but in any case the point here is that um i think it's not about the next big thing um previously of course uh people would say oh universal computation through ethereum that's a pretty big thing and building all of the digital ledger that's the bitcoin which is pretty big i mean i i'm a co-board member of radical exchange is a international NGO uh working on quadratic voting other social innovations and i'm working with glenn wilde and also uh bitterly puttering in which who knows something about ethereum uh and uh in making sure that these ideas develop in the ethereum like quadratic funding and so on gets projected even more to the liberal democracies um that is to say we incorporate them into our national regulations and policies and so on uh so i think the the next big thing is still democracy it's just that democracy reimagined as a set of social technologies and everybody can be a social technologist that apply such day-to-day decision-making listening scale mechanisms and create a pro-social rather than an antisocial media landscape so i'll just use one example i'm not saying this by itself is a next big thing but it's a pretty big thing uh and hoping you think it's quite successful yeah and this is called polis it's a very small weekly survey um machine learning uh toolkit that allows for people to find almost magically their consensus on pretty much anything rough consensus anyway so it's AI powered listening at scale so what you're looking at is a real conversation uh we first use it in uh 2015 in taiwan um and to deliberate about uber uh when uber came to taiwan they work with those professional drivers and amateur drivers and the amateur drivers of course is against the law at a time so but their idea is that algorithm dispatch is uh better than law so you should you know work with algorithm not work with law civil disobedience all that disruptive innovation uh and so uh we use rec tech regulatory technology uh polis uh to listen to everybody uber driver taxi driver passengers associations whomever uh and they can see their friends and families on all the different clusters which identify the different feelings that resonates intergroup and also intergroups about the uber so we shared all the open data about traffic data congestion data and so on uh to data journalists who do sense making and with four weeks uh we run this polis conversation and we ask a very simple question what do you feel what do you feel about this and then there's no right or wrong about feelings but there's resonating feelings and less resonating feelings and then we ideate using face-to-face live streamed uh broadcast meetings to make sure that the feelings that resonates the most become the best ideas and the idea that take care of most people's feelings ends up becoming the regulations that we use to regulate uber and it was a wild success everybody is happy with the result um so at a moment uber operates in taiwan through the q-taxi but search pricing and all those innovations are part of the law and every other taxi company also above that as well which improved the overall experience so um the listening skill technology works like this you get into the website uh you see this uh one statement from your fellow citizens um this one is from me saying i think passenger liability insurance should be meant okay so you may agree in which case you move to arming because i'm right here uh or you disagree in which case you move apart from me um and the software automatically calculates the most divisive point uh which is the x axis and the next most divisive point which is y axis and you see the next question the next sentiment from your fellow system and then you agree or disagree and then it goes on and then you will share what do you feel and then you share and everybody else vote as well so this builds a literally 100 dimensional space uh of sentiments and we run some dimension reduction uh algorithm uh to project it to the two-dimensional canvas and use k-means clustering to find the common sentiments so this is just standard machine learning stuff and then um it reflects the crowd back to the crowd everybody can see what their friends and family feel like they're not anonymous trolls on the internet these are your friends and families it's just you didn't have a conversation about uber over dinner uh and so people learn to empathize with all the different slides and people literally see them merging together into the middle during the three week conversation because there is no reply button there's no way for trolls to control the conversation if you don't have the reply button you cannot make personal attacks uh if you see something you disagree like with slido you can just propose something else and hope that it gets more upwards and that's it and so at the end of each uh politics conversation we'll still see those ideological divisive statements maybe five of them but they don't consume 95 percent of calories rather with this huge amount of things here the consensus statements where most people agree with most of each other on most of things most of the time and that's true for any liberal democracy it's just a filter bubble the social media and even some institutional media makes us forget about the consensus and make us over concentrate on the polarization and so a pro-social media like world is is bringing this sense of polity back this is a real conversation a virtual town hall that this one is run in bowling green canopy and no matter whether group a or b identifying as republicans and democrats they agree on some very simple things like the most consensual one says instead of science technology engineering and math stem it should be steam art should be part of stem poetry i think should be part of stem because it's the same creativity in it and i mean it's essential component everybody across the political i agree with them so when the mayor takes that into account their popularity the chance of next reelection just magically grows because they offend nobody by taking on this crowd consensus of course more brabant access more diversity in telecoms always a good idea and so this enabled not only people in the same township but rather people of different jurisdiction even across the world like we use it to run a us taiwan conversation on how to mitigate this post pandemic technologies and so on so it can be used on any scale and then it always deterministically actually find the most consensual parts of the population and reflects this shape to the polity which reassures people that we are a polity despite our cultural and non differences and so the common values out of different positions that is i think a very powerful democratic tech we use a lot of technologies a poll is just one of the many but polis is the most visually appealing so i'm demoing that but there's many like that and i think democracy is the next big thing um okay so german line uh we'd like to know can i share and talk more about the 17 sustainable goals apply in taiwan give us the holistic picture we just finished course on circular economy and sustainability great glad to um so the 17 sdgs in taiwan we have our voluntary national review like pretty much everybody else and we have the voluntary local reviews as well so if you go to a social innovation platform si that taiwan that gov that tw you can see this presidential hackathon promo movie that encourages you to participate in all sort of different sdgs and the colors each and every one of it so you can see a map of taiwan you ask for a holistic view let's give you a aerial view and you can click each municipality and each county and see in their voluntary local review which sdg they are focusing on and so i'll just you say something about circular economy so that's 12 and then 12 is new type of city in gaussian city and if you click v vlr well it opens an issue link which may not work live demo that actually works so then you can go to the circular economy chapter in the vlr there's a Mandarin version i believe they have an english one as well and then in gaussian city as well and so if you go to gaussian city which is having its moment right now in taiwanese media you can see everything oh actually you can switch to english ah much better and then you can see their local social innovation organizations what sdgs they're working on and you can click in these sdgs and find the other you know networks and there's also special topics around its independent makers of like this one is about telemedicine which is sdg 3 and 10 and also the different topics where we unite the more than 400 social innovation organizations co-ops enterprises universities and so on and it's all sdg indexed so university that participate in the university social responsibility program they get their cast on projects indexed through specific commitments like something that's something within the sdg and then they can find their natural allies and and their partners throughout this network for social innovation organizations and when any enterprise or large organizations procure like buy from the dm there's a dm where you can see not only the beautiful sdg pictures but actually if you buy more of these things how much social return of investment you get and this is sdg 3 which is good for your health but also good for the health of the planet this is circular economy how you can work to reduce waste zero waste full circular while supporting i think these are excellent mushrooms or something like that but in any case so that if you buy a sufficient number of those goods and services then i personally go out and give you an award and so that is the way that we encourage more responsible consumption and also make sure that people integrate these socially responsible products and into their supply chain so the first year we run it which was three three years ago people make one time purchases but by the second year which was last year more than half of them have integrated these into their supply chain which means that they understand that procuring from things that have a positive instead of a negative externality actually not only enhance the brand but actually results in better quality because people participate more and give them more ideas they essentially crowdsource their research and development and that is what's needed for circular economy to grow so that's a holistic picture you can check it yourself on the social innovation platform uh SI that Taiwan that GOV that TW um German also sorry yes please uh keep going thanks okay uh German also would like to know which would i please share the experience sorry sorry Audrey uh uh sorry i have one question follow this uh the the uh sustainable goals because i noticed that different countries have different goals so how they set uh which one is their target how they define the their sdgs yeah and then uh also because as as i understand uh uh sustainable you also have to involve uh citizens so uh how you educate the people what's the value for buying this uh this circular circular products um yeah thank you all great questions so um Taiwan is is pretty um interesting in the sense that the environmental and social groups have a higher legitimacy than the government so this is not about the government teaching people this is about the uh pro social and pro environmental groups teaching the government uh and and we developed this because um after the lifting of the martial law there's many uh very large charity organizations community building organizations that are still around uh and we only get to directly elect the president in 1996 but at that time there's a decade or more of those social sector organizations growing the csa is growing and so the csls have a higher legitimacy even to the state when there's a natural disaster if the charity reports a number and the local government reports a number people it's going to believe that's the g-number people is not going to believe in the county number right so so that's higher legitimacy for you and and and the same goes uh to the home makers union jufu lian mong uh to the uh keras foundations xi hang er for for each of the sdgs they're working on they have higher legitimacy than the respective uh chief of the office of the municipality and so because of that we can't beat the csa is we must join the csa is and when they say oh circular economy is the next big thing we've added to our national strategy uh that's uh initially uh in 2016 uh when the new government comes in there's only five uh topical industries but the csa was mobilized and forced the government to include uh circular economy and uh new agriculture the the agric innovation act tech uh into the priorities and so this is literally grassroots and so i think the more pertinent question in taiwan is how are we making sure that people working on pro-social issues can also get amplified by people majoring in business and economy and how people working with uh environmental issues can benefit from the latest of only material science uh and for example in fashion design how to how do we promote that these things are are more hip to people and uh if we have regulations that harm uh this for example um we have a national identity drink maybe you have try it it's called the bubble tea uh and uh there's many people who think that our passport should change our national logo to the bubble tea and everybody will know that we're from taiwan but in case uh the bubble tea um if you see the iconography it usually comes uh with a straw right and the straw is usually straw in a transparent manner which means it's probably plastic uh and so that actually harms the circularity of things because plastic straws you can throw away and you know very easily right so um three years ago there was somebody on the national participation platform joined the GOV that TW that proposed that we gradually ban plastic straws and other single-time use utensils in our you know national identity strength like bubble tea and of course they use a very provocative imagery such as a sea turtle being choked you know with the plastic straw and things like that and so um that petition garnered 5 000 signature in very short record time and the person because we'll have pseudonyms is only known as um I love elephants and elephants love me so I have no idea who they are but uh they can get so many signatures in no time so we have to vote all our participation offices vote every month on top two issues to face do a face-to-face collaboration with and also live streamed uh and so we meet with the petitioner and she's just 16 years old senior high school student and she's really good like Greta Thunberg at you know mobilizing the social media and we're like okay but why did you propose this in the first place and she's like it's our civics class assignment our my teacher just tell us to find something that resonates with the e-petition crowd and we think plastic straw you know not good and so we invited all the stakeholders including the makers of single-use utensils and they sit down and they're maybe in their 60s and explained that back then like 30 years ago 40 years ago when it first entered this business they entered out of a social responsibility because at that time the hepatitis b is prevalent in Taiwan and only single-use utensils can protect one another from the happy now of course happy is cured is easily cured so you don't need that anymore but the kind of ritual still remains in older generations so then they brainstormed aside from obvious solutions like class straws also straws made out of circular material that by itself reduce carbon footprint because it's reusing the agricultural waste and so on and so the young people who petitioned point out a new direction but more senior people now seeing the new direction actually participated in the material science and design of the new things so they can collaborate on crowdfunding events so now we actually found plastic straws for takeouts but we'll see in Taiwan and you see all sorts of circular design coming up and that's all because of a civics class assignment I think this this is not only a good international case of intergenerational solidarity but also a great way to think beyond that you know old generation linear new generation circular the old generation may also be very socially responsible you just have to help them to clear their browser cache so to speak to clear away their misconceptions and preconceptions so do I go on yeah I think we have time for one more question so let's say you pick which one you would like to to answer no no no the crowd picks the one so the top one says but there there's the top one I thought they were all four okay yeah yeah there's a clear winner so um or maybe somebody figure out that you can use private browsing to vote for yourself but in any case so could you please share the experience last year when you visited the Niederland, Danhag and Bratitan and Germany sure um so there's a lot of ministerial level visits um quite a few and I'm really happy to see that we align on circular economy sustainability and so on it surprises me that in Germany they at that time did not consider broadband a human right it generally surprised me and there's a lot of kind of debates around whether broadband is actually good for democracy or not which from coming from Taiwan it seems very alien to me but I gradually started getting into the point of their culture of basically a just like Taiwan mobilized for the pandemic very quickly because we had prior exposure to SARS 1.0 in 2003 so we are so good at mobilizing against SARS 2.0 which is the novel coronavirus the the Germany of course had their history about pentopticon right that the East Germany Stasi and so on and so they very much do not like anything that tracks them including cell phone towers signals and things like that and so I think privacy enhancing technology is something that unites Taiwan and Germany together while of course in the Netherlands there's less of that and of course still a lot of debates and I'm really happy to say that the Taiwan AR Lab have a not privacy infringing design of the contact tracing app that we're not using because we don't have committed spread but we're already working with the UK so if you want to check out I think it's called arlabs.tw they can also help you at I think it's called Covirus.cc easy to remember domain name right so if you're interested in that I'm sure that we have plenty of AI researchers and privacy enhancing technologies that can help you in developing that not necessarily branded Taiwan it's just GitHub so I think that's something that we both care this is a great thing to unite our sub together to fight not only the pandemic but also the infodemic and so on and I particularly like the Netherlands culture of everything is deliberative even intergenerational issues and things like that even the pension reform which is not our deliberative in Taiwan I tell you it could be deliberated in the Netherlands I think we have to learn from that deliberative culture and using digital technology to help amplifying that culture to the rest of the world so that's I guess the answer to your last question great questions by the way really good questions so I think now because it's almost 1040 so I think it's the almost the close time for this session so I'm Michelle I like to represent my classmates to thank for sharing your experience and your insight of the social innovation for us today and especially now we know you are really busy on COVID-19 prevention and also you have to launch in the stimulus package so it's a it's a very good for us to learn and reflect from your how you how the government can transfer from work for people to work with people and to use technologies to serve people and also because I I'm from Taiwan so I would like to take this opportunity to invite my classmates Villica and German they both from Taiwan because we want to thank you because of your contribution now we know our families and our friends now they are in Taiwan live safely and healthily and in the end we hope we all can use the humor to against this crisis thank you yeah thank you joy takes us further and have a safe and good luck for time yes yeah yeah thank you thank you thank you thank you bye bye bye bye bye thank you Villica and Michelle thank you so much really great session I think lots of insights for all of us I mean it could have easily gone on and on and on and German with all your good questions and I think your interaction of everybody thank you so much I would love to to invite to invite Adria once to let let us know when when she visits the Netherlands because we'd love love to have her yeah to have her for a session at the university or anywhere else I mean it doesn't matter where but just to have other people interact with her I think there's so much to learn from government I'm really going to see if I can go to government and inform some people on this because I think there's so much to learn the way they use the open source and they interact with with the community with people really impressive so thank you so much for having brought this to us and all your effort to do so it has been quite and it was so nice to see all of that and