 G'day, welcome to Bootlossophy and if you're new here, my name is Tech. I acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that I live and work on here in Perth in Western Australia, the Wajik people of Nungabuja. Now, today I'm very excited because I'm bringing to you an interview with an experienced podiatrist to talk about how boots fit and what we need to know about our feet. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Mr. Anthony Cox. I'd like to introduce to you Anthony Cox. Anthony, thank you for joining us. No worries, you're most welcome, Tech. Good. Now, you're a podiatrist. You reached out to me. Tell me a little bit about yourself. Well, yeah, Tech, I suppose I reached out to you after being swept up in the boot craze, if you want to call it that, in recent months. I've been a podiatrist for over 25 years and practicing here in Australia. Primary work was actually with the Australian Department of Defense. So, I've handled quite a few boots over the years, mostly in the combat-slash-tactical sort of boot side of the house, but always been a boot lover myself, worn boots to work and always had a good pair of work boots and casual boots, etc. So, yeah, that sort of sort of piqued my interest earlier this year. I don't have the collection that you have, but I have plenty. Yeah, I enjoy getting outdoors, taking hikes and things, and so it's always good to... I've got a couple of pair of Red Wings, Parkhurst, Grantstone, Thursdays. Yeah, yeah, so right now in my life I'm not working as a podiatrist due to a sight problem, but yeah, that's a bit of a summary there for you. Yeah, terrific. The YouTube rabbit war on the thing is very real, isn't it? I think you get sucked in a lot and then you go to the next one and you go to the next one. Oh, totally, yes, yeah. And that algorithm is quite powerful and you find yourself maybe, sometimes it's very interesting, but maybe sometimes you want two hours of your life back. It's easier to waste time, yeah. So run through some of the boots that you have. Do you have any favourites? Well, I do like them all, I have to say, but for various reasons. As you know, we tend to favour ones for different reasons. And we might come to that a bit later when we talk to the whole topic of maybe why we wear boots or why we wear footwear at all. But yeah, as I said, I like to take walks with my little dog and things. So I find that the more ruggeder style, more rugged style boots rather than the fashion style, if you like. Yeah, this morning I took a walk in my Parkhursts in the Rustwaxi. And I love that 602 last. It's very good, yeah. We'll go into a bit of the last, because I'd be very interested in your opinion on the different lasts and whether they're good for you or not even, yeah? Yeah, sure, sure. I think there's a lot of time spent discussing fit and break-in that I've found. And ultimately, I think if you get a last that matches your foot the best, that's really key. Really key, yeah. So, you know, you're very aware, I'm sure, that there's no foot's the same as your neighbours or your cousins even. So it's about, I know in Australia we tend to have relatively wide forefeet on mass. And then some people have very skinny feet. And I find that there's also trends where people will say straight out, I have high arches. And what I find is that it's not always the case. I've seen true high arches and they are very high and very distinctive and very rare. And I think it's the lack of a flat foot, then people automatically delve in to say, well, I have high arches when really they're more neutral. Right. Do you think because we're outdoorsy in Australia, you know, we wear thongs bare feet, does that affect fit, do you think? Oh, yeah, for sure. I think, you know, as children grow, you know, and a lot of kids in Australia will run around in bare feet. Being outdoorsy, as you said, you know, I don't know if you've had a really good look at, I say, a person who surfs a lot, you know. Yeah, they have some of the most amazing feet, very muscular feet, you know. And by that, I mean the muscles in the feet itself. Yeah. Because they're stabilizing on the board, I suppose. Correct. That's right. Yeah. So the muscles in the feet control the toes. And they develop them through balance and grip and, you know, walking on sand a lot. And yeah, they can be quite distinctive. But I think, you know, I have to say that nothing impacts your foot health more than footwear. So, you know, it's certainly wearing bare feet or thongs and this sort of thing will have an effect. When you emailed me, which I found really interesting, you said that boot reviewers would sometimes use biomechanical terms like incorrectly or loosely. What are the sort of examples that you've seen of that? And what are the right biomechanical terms? Well, yeah, that's sort of one thing I'd observed. And I don't want this to be a criticism of some of the wonderful reviewers that are out there. More of a me being a bit of a pedant, really, because of my background. But, you know, I hear anatomical terms and such as, say, instep, you know, thrown around and arch support sort of broadly. I think I saw somewhere the other day where there was a claim that having a too narrow a toe box could cause plantar fasciitis. And, you know, this is professionally frustrating for me, you know. So that's sort of more what sort of sprung me to reach out and just have a chat like this and make it what you will. Like I said, criticism, you know. Well, the more we know, the better. I mean, I found you earlier when you're talking about somebody identifying with high arches, not really having a high arches. I mean, I'm not even sure if I have flat feet. I have very low arches, you know. And my feet, is it caught pronating when you turn in? It is, yeah. So it's difficult for a non-professional, you know, we all wear boots and I have a feel for my boots. But I don't really know why certain boots feel certain ways, you know. Okay. Yeah. Well, to explain that a bit, I suppose, I'll start by speaking about some of the facts regarding how the foot functions, how it's built, why it's built the way it is and how it works with things like pronation, etc. But essentially, you know, I find that the foot is an engineering masterpiece. You know, it's something that I think if you handed some clever people these days the bottom end of a human leg and said, now you design something that has to be an adaptive lever, sorry, an adaptive shock absorber and then a rigid lever all within 0.7 of a second. I think that struggle to do it because that's the reality of what the foot does. And so the best we can do, and it's very good, the poor need prosthetic lower legs is some sort of a spring or a cam that they can sort of roll over rather than land quite firmly. And then, you know, there's no function to pick up things and that sort of thing. So it's very hard to replicate. So I suppose what I might do is talk about some of the facts that it is indeed that adaptive shock absorber and then a rigid leader. And so, firstly, we'll talk about a force line on the sole of a shoe. Now, this could be hard to imagine, but essentially, if in terms of the foot striking the ground, what would be a normal force line? So no foot's really normal because we're talking about human bodies here. Yeah. But hang on. So if we were to talk about a force line, this is a right boot for a right foot. And where, if you like, should start here at the outside of the heel. Then the force line would go up the outside of the foot across the ball of the foot and then out through the big toe. Right. Okay. So, yeah, as I said, striking here up the outside of the foot and then across the ball of the foot and then out through the big toe. The big toe is the big toe for a reason. It takes a lot of force and the big toe joint, if you like, where it joins the first metatars. So it's very important joint in terms of gait and stability and things like that. So that's a start and that when it transitions, when the force transitions across here, that's when the foot is rolling in or pronating as you spoke about. Now, just because to look at standing up, say in the shower, you have flat feet. It doesn't necessarily mean you pronate excessively. Pronation is a normal process. So everybody has to pronate a little bit. It's one of the five major shock-absorbing methods that we have between our big toe and our hip. And also to stop pronation is virtually impossible unless you put the foot in a plastic cast. So you can limit pronation. You can change the timing of pronation. And as I said, if you pronate for too long or for too hard or at the wrong time in the gait cycle, then that is linked to certain problems. But it's not all dark and bad, that's for sure. So that force line, if I translate that into layman's terms and physics, because not biomechanics. So you basically strike on the outside of the heel and roll for stability to the ball and then push off with the toe. That's why the line goes that way. That's right. A little bit of roll for cushioning and then as the foot then rolls out ever so slightly, that's the stability to propel you forward. That makes sense. Yeah. I hadn't thought of that before. I always thought your foot went plump, plump, plump. It's actually a twisting motion. It's not really a collapsing motion or a turning out motion. It's a combination of, we look at things in three planes. So three anatomical planes and there's movement in each of those planes. So it's not as simple as one might think. Just on that note of the force line while I remember, because it's normal to strike on this outer border of the shoe, this lateral border. That means that if you get excessive wear here, I would consider that completely normal. Right. Yeah. So if I was to divide the heel of the shoe into quadrants, it would be that upper outer quadrant, which would be normal wear. Right. And that is actually because we don't all stand with our feet directly straight in front of us, if you like. We all turn out a bit. We're all sort of five to one on the clock. Yep. So that means that we're always going to strike on that outside. Yeah. However, if you have someone who is what we call an intode gate or pigeon toad gate, they will actually wear on the inside. Right. Because they are striking on the inside. Right. Yeah. So that's a query that I've had a lot over the years where people say, I must walk funny or I must roll too much or something. But it's completely normal to have that wear on that upper outer quadrant. Yeah. So not wanting to go off track completely, what do you think about these barefoot soles or barefoot shoes? Well, Tech, that is a tin of worms that I'm not sure we should open right now. I'm not sure how long we've got. But I will say that I'm not totally against the barefoot shoes. I mean, again, being the pedant, that is a contradiction in terms. But what I would say is that they will work for some people and that's great. And that doesn't mean that it is good for everybody. The facts are that the sale of barefoot shoes or barefoot runners or minimalist runners are on the downtrend. If you do a search on it, it is on the downtrend, has been for some years. I view it as a bit of a fad, if you like. And the premise that a lot of the believers in these sort of footwear come from is that it's natural. And to that, I might say, well, so is uranium and so is butter. Yeah. So that is quite different from walking around barefoot or walking around in loose thongs that I imagine. Is that right? Well, thongs are different again because you have to grip with your toe to keep the thumb on your foot. But what you're doing is essentially just providing a very thin cover over the foot to offer a very small amount of protection and allowing the foot to function as if it were bare feet. Right. Yeah. And there's no evidence out in the scientific literature to say that it will make you run faster or more efficiently or anything like that. Interesting. Yeah. But if it works for someone, and I've had people who've come to me and said I've had problems with my shins or my knees or my ankles and I changed to this style of running and this type of shoe, and I have no problems now. And I said, well, that's great. I don't say you're doing it all wrong. Of course. Yeah. But often... Yeah. I think that's one of the things that you said at the beginning that everybody's foot is different. And it worries me sometimes that people do message me and say, oh, do you think I should take a size this and that brand? I'm like, look, all I can do is tell you what last fits me and what size fits me, you know? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So the fit side of the house is tricky for everybody because some will work better for some and not for others. Yeah. So just going back to the biomechanics in terms of that force line, what about the top of the boot? Is there anything in that that we should look for? Well, do you mean in the top of the upper and the vamp and where the eyelets might be? Should the support should be where the eyelets might be? Should they close tight or loose? You know that across what I call the instep? Yeah. No, well, that is the instep. That's right. Yeah. But yeah, it has to be, I suppose, what we call snug. So you want something that's snug without being too firm. The general rule, if I was giving advice to someone about, excuse me, footwear in general or boots, but we do like a small gap between the eyelets. I know that there are some of the dressier boots which will come quite up close when you do up particularly those last two or three eyelets. And you know, if that happens and it feels firm everywhere else, it's a good fit, nice and snug everywhere else. That's fine. But as a general principle, you know, I was taught many years ago that say you're buying joggers that you would be looking for a 25 mil gap between the eyelets. Okay. All right. Yeah. As a general rule, but then that can become very hard if you have a very skinny foot or something like that. So, but generally it's, I suppose, while we're talking about that, I'll just mention what makes, I suppose, a good shoe or boot from a biomechanical standpoint. And I'll do that grandstone diesel. Yeah. So, but number one, we look for what we call a firm heel counter. So, obviously the counter, we're pretty on the same page there. So that's really very quite firm if I squeeze it. And if I push here, then I'm getting next to no movement. You know, it's very stiff leather. And there's that would be reinforced with leather or some such. I'm not particularly fair with what's inside here. So that that's very important. And that the reason for that is because if you control the heel, you can control the foot. Right. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Stability. So that rolling in or rolling out excessively will be limited. It won't be stopped. It will be limited by a firm heel counter. Okay. So that's number one. Number two is what we call torsional stability. And I've heard you refer to this before. So that's where you have, you know, a stiffness in this, in the, the, um, usually the midsole and to a degree, the, um, the outsole where it's, it's very stiff. So if you grab your, your boot and try and twist it on itself, you get just a fraction of movement. Um, and, and so you want a little bit of movement, but not much, you know, um, now the third thing is what we call a brake line. Okay. Yeah. So that's when we, when our foot breaks, it needs to line up where our shoe breaks. Right. Yeah. Or where the shoe needs to line up with our foot, you know, so that means if you, if you press on each end to break the shoe like that, you will break in the, in line with that joint. Is that before or after you've broken the boot in? Is there a natural brake line in a boot? No, that's a good point. Generally there would be, um, that would be formed after you've broken the boot in, in this sort of footwear. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and fourthly, the presence of a heel, I think is important from a biomechanical standpoint. So, you know, you look at this, you know, the heel stack as we call it and, you know, so there would be a drop of some, you know, 16, 14, 10, even as little as six or eight mils between the ball of the foot, the ball of the foot and the heel. Right. And that's important. Yeah. Because the analogy here, Tech, is that if you imagine a lady's foot in a high heel shoe, um, and you could even do this where you mimic having your foot in a high heel shoe with bare feet. What happens is your, when you do that, you raise that heel off the ground, your arch comes up by itself. Yeah. Okay. So the presence of a small heel will actually naturally raise your arch. Right. So there's no need to jam it up using a funky insole or any sort of special padding or thing. So the presence of a heel will actually do that to a degree. Yeah. Sometimes when I was practicing, people would come along and we'd do various tests and all we would do would put an extra small heel raise in their shoe. Okay. Yeah. And then so... And that works with a wedge sole, obviously, as long as there's a height difference. Correct. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And what about... I bought a Nick's boot recently. Great. And it has quite a built-in sort of leather, slivers of leather built-in under the arch. He told me that eventually as my weight compresses them, my foot actually slides further into what I thought was a long boot. So what they're saying, I guess, is that the arch support gradually conforms to your feet sliding in. Is that sort of match what you're saying, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not sure that sort of all links up there, Tika. I don't think... Do you mean because of the heel? You're asking because of the heel your foot will slide a bit? Yeah. Yeah. Because it's a slightly higher heel than I'm used to. Yeah. Yeah. Well, no. The heel should... Even if it is relatively high, what we see in the loggers or that sort of style, that means the foot just assumes that position. It shouldn't be moving in the boot forward to back or in this case, sort of forward. It's more that the actual heel will wear down to a small degree, in which case the support from the shoe will come up, if you like. Right. Well, it doesn't come up, but it's there and because it's leather, it's moulded and fashioned more towards what is nice for you. So what are your thoughts on arch support, whether it be built-in or orthotic or whatever? Well, yeah, this is one of the terms that is thrown around a lot. I think that generally, number one, not everybody needs a lot of support. And in saying that, some people need a lot of arch support because it's a human foot and the variables in how the foot is built and the degree of flexibility and then what you're doing in the boot. You're loading a lot of heel to toe walking and a lot of arch support. But yeah, I think what I was trying to say before about the features of the good footwear, then you'll get a degree of arch support from a shoe alone, a good shoe. Whereas if you have a shoe that doesn't meet those criteria, then you're not going to get as much arch support. I suppose I'll just show you on another shoe. This is just an old work boot of mine, but soft heel counter, really soft, very easy to twist on itself and pretty much breaks wherever I want it to break. So for me personally, I wouldn't be walking miles in that. I wouldn't wear them, but I wouldn't go off on a big hike for that because I have quite flat feet and I'm also very flexible. So I suppose to answer your question, then you're getting arch support from that torsional stability, the firm heel counter and the right break line and the presence of a small heel. Yeah. Yeah. Having said that, as podiatrists, we intervene fairly regularly with things like insoles and basics and things like that. And that can vary. I think if someone is seeking out the services of a podiatrist, then you're getting a customization, whereas you or I could go to the pharmacy or the sports store and buy an off-the-shelf orthotic or insole. It's interesting what gets called an orthotic these days because often it's soft and squishy and, you know, and I think that's because a bit like Shoemakers, I think if a medical company or a sports company decides to make, you know, the savior orthotic that will help you with everything, if they give a lot of arch support, then they're going to hurt some people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I bought somewhere, oh boy, it hurt. It's like something digging into the foot. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, digging in too much, setting up new pains that you didn't ask for. And then also things like blisters, et cetera. Right. Right. Just some experiences I've had with boots. I think like my parkers, and we'll talk about lasts in a minute, my parkers I feel very comfortable in, even though when you feel inside there's no particular buildup in the arch, nothing like that. I put on oldens and again, you feel nothing in there, but they feel more supportive. And I'm told it's because of the experience they have of that sort of cantilever part of the sort of leather sole. And then I've worn Pacific Northwest boots where they do build up the arch with slabs of leather and it feels really supportive. So, three different styles of boot making and all three make me feel very comfortable. What's wrong with me? Well, I'm not sure if there's anything necessarily wrong, but that degree of arch support you can achieve in different ways. Like I said, the features of the boot itself and then particularly in the midsole or even the insole, if they can achieve where there is even a small amount of extra, let's call it rays within what would be the immediate arch of the foot. They can achieve where you feel like you're standing on a tapered pipe. So, the higher diameter on the inside of your foot and the lower diameter on the outside, if you imagine that tapering down and then that will just mean your foot will function a lot better. Right. Generally, if you have flexibility and flexible flat feet, yeah. Generally, yeah. Let's talk about lasts. I mean, obviously, there are on one extreme the very fashionable skinny last, right through to the round months type last. Are there good ones across that range or are they all good if certain things are done? I think a lot of thought and preparation and design goes into a last because if you get it wrong, it's huge problems if you want to sell lots of footwear. And I think in terms of lasts being better than one or the other, it's more towards whether your foot appeals to that last, if you like. So, yeah, I think that one we mentioned before the 602 is essentially an e-wit at the forefoot, but then it's quite narrow in the heel. So, that will suit certain people. Other ones that will be narrower will suit a narrower foot. But it's not as always as simple as width or because that toe box particularly, what happens there, it's basically volume because if you were to take the insole out of any shoe or boot and then stand on it, you'll find that the edges of your foot almost inevitably will spill over the edges a bit. Yeah. However, when you put that insole in and then put the shoe or boot on, you find, well, it sits and it snugs that handshake feel they speak of in that. So, it's more about volume inside that toe box. Yeah, that's certainly for that end of the boot and then with other areas, you know, the heel, as I said, there's variances where you can have a narrow heel and it tapers out to a wider forefoot or one is relatively wide all the way through that sort of thing. Yeah. Usually generally in medical footwear and I know we're not really talking about medical footwear, but the last is bigger, if you like, because then that translates to a shoe that's ever so slightly deeper and ever so slightly wider. So, I suppose it comes back to fit for the most people, if you like, and that may vary from country to country or something like that, but then also it will be a function of what you're going to do in the boot and this comes back to what I was saying before about why we wear boots. I tend to have a boot to walk in because when I've got a boot on I feel a bit bulletproof, quite frankly, whereas when some of the guys in America speak about being on ladders all day, then the boot's doing a different thing. Ultimately, we wear footwear for protection and support and then the third factor, the big factor is fashion. Yeah, and in terms of, I mean, I know what you're saying about bulletproof, in terms of the support around your ankles and so on, that's an important part of bootery, isn't it? I think so, yeah, I think it is and I think a lot of that it's probably a feeling you get as well why people will choose to wear a boot often even if it's relatively warm climate because of that support. However, I'll point out that people will say, oh, boot will give you more ankle support but if an ankle wants to sprain, it will sprain, okay? And I know plenty of people who've sprained their ankles wearing what would be considered quite supportive boots but what it is, is it's the contact of something different to what's hitting our skin. So something's almost wrapping our foot up almost like a handshake, as we say and that gives our brain feedback that everything's good down there. Yeah, and you spoke earlier about having that foot flexibility so is there some danger of having too much ankle support that you're in a moon boot almost? Well, yes, I think you'll find that footwear that requires some sort of activity or movement, say hiking or trekking or working then you need a certain degree of flexibility. The way moon boots work is that they take the total load off your ankle and foot complex by providing a cam to walk on. Yeah. I do have some eight-inch boots which I actually find quite uncomfortable because they don't give me that flexibility when I take them hiking because I'm thinking ankle support in a good and rough ground but I do find them uncomfortable like they're almost keeping me too stiff. Yes, well that comes back to where I was saying before that in my view a heel on a boot is a good thing because we pivot over our heel but then our ankle joint itself and this is where the ankle joint being where our leg joins our foot essentially we have to have that motion of being able the leg to pass over our foot so if a very rigid boot is going a fair way up your leg and it's laced fairly hard and it's got rigid leather then it's going to limit that motion. Right. I wouldn't mind talking about sizing because particularly for us in Australia buying American boots it's a bit of a gamble when you're buying online. So in terms of sizing we spoke about feeling snug and wits and so on what should you be looking for because some people you see in these forums they're saying oh you know it's a little bit snug I'm usually a D I've decided to go doubly and it fits really well and it kind of worries me about this sort of pot luck sizing. What should you be looking for? Well it is I agree it is a bit pot luck particularly when you're buying them online and you know my advice would always be to try it on in person before you you know commit your heart earned however that's not always possible for whatever reasons but you know I think you know the best I think it's been covered fairly well out there when people speak about that firm handshake and first step and knowing that you know these good quality leathers will stretch up a bit you know they will open up a bit and your foot will feel a lot better than say the day you get them you know keeping in mind that you should probably try on boots you should probably try them on in the afternoon when your foot is a little bit bigger yeah so yeah but I mean I think I think that has been covered fairly well in this firm handshake if you're feeling pinching across your forefoot that's not right if it feels too tight and even if it feels hard you know a hardness being like a relative lack of shock absorption when compared with say a jogger well most cushioning well pretty much all cushioning comes from what's outside a boot yeah so yeah the heel and the sole that's right that's right yeah so if that's a firm compound or you know material it's going to feel firm underfoot and that's just the nature of it and it's a bit like tyres you know you can have a soft squishy tyre that will ride beautifully and be really good in the wet quickly whereas you have a rugged old truck tyre in the last you know 15 years so because it's harder more dense rubber so but yeah fit it's tricky and it's very personal it's very personal I know that the sporting footwear companies or the running shoe companies will actually design a shoe so it feels quite amazing in that first step yeah they actually refer to it as that first step comfort and often that will make a sale if someone's tossing up between two or three other bands whereas whereas in the boot side of the house it's a different feel and yeah I think you have to I'd just say number one ideally try it on in person and then fit wide last and generally it seems that you know if you use the brannock device and you know your brannock size then generally it's a half size lower when as far as fit using the US system yeah don't get me started on half size low why can't they bloody name these things exact same size that your brannock is well this is it I mean it's quite incredible because you can look online for any number of boot size conversion tables and then you can go to a website of a boot supplier and you might really like their boots and you look at their sizing and it actually doesn't add up with anybody's system you think well where are we here so thankfully a lot of them are very good in liaising with you I'm currently in having a few email exchanges with the guys over in Bordon and very supportive very supportive fantastic yeah we might wind up with some of your thoughts on intervention because your experience with Australian defence forces you must have had guys come in with boots that you just can't find the right size for something's not right what are the types of interventions that you might be looking at well if we refer specifically to the patients that were from the defence force they had a few restrictions on what their boots they're allowed to wear so that made it hard for them that's for sure I can't speak too much about what goes on in the army of course and the forces but you know there was always a desire to have a relatively inexpensive boot which was supplied that would be capable of fitting every foot type now unfortunately that's virtually impossible and so sometimes it was a matter of just getting approval or advising them of other models that they were allowed to wear and even the concept of sizing I wish I had a dollar for every time I've said to someone what size is your foot and they'll say oh 10 or 10 and a half and I said yeah but what's the rest and they go what do you mean and I said well an E or a 2E and so sometimes it was simple as saying well you need a 2E in your joggers for a start or something like that and then yeah sure we did various other things like as I said sometimes adding just a simple heel raise sometimes adding some padding in certain areas I'm not a huge fan of say stretching footwear or but I have had some experiences have been successful for some people in that regard and then using insoles or orthotics in there can certainly help a lot of people yeah for sure keeping in mind that in my view that's more of a clinical intervention rather than to aid fit for example or you know I don't have an orthotic here but some people might say oh let's just start support well let's not just start support I can tell you now you know they have various features designed there's probably 12 to 15 major parameters that we go through when we prescribe an orthotic so you know in my view it's very customised and so there's the risk of getting all of that combination and variables right and then also being prepared to adjust it if needs be afterwards you know so I had various materials tools grinders little buffers and things like that and so I suppose an analogy might be like false teeth you know if it's not right it's just going to annoy you if it's great it'll work well yeah but yeah you know and one of the major interventions as I mentioned before was just just good footwear advice like doing that what I said picking up the shoe bending and twisting it and coming from that engineering slash physics background yeah I guess people like me who wonder into a pharmacy and buying in souls would be in must grate your teeth oh no I think it's that I'm sure they help a lot of people really it's very cheap it's very immediate and if it helps well that's great but it all comes down to why you're doing it I suppose I get a bit annoyed when you see what is a mass produced device being called custom again it's it's a contradiction in terms so that's all but that's the pedant in me as I said yeah I think it's custom because you can cut it at the top to size that that's right that's right yeah so one feature yeah yeah so Anthony thanks very much for your time do you have any final thoughts for us um no no not really I think I think it's it's been great to chat to you today tech and hope some people get a little bit out of this um you know um I think that generally the the whole genre or family of footwear that we're all enthused about sort of en masse is very good footwear and that's great and you know we enjoy the build quality the choice of materials and things like that and I suppose I might just point out that you know it's interesting that here we are in Australia um you know adding to cart for companies in America or um uh you know Bolivia as I said before and then having a a boot pair of boots turn up that's been made in Spain or Mexico and things like this and I suppose it's a bit disappointing in terms of the local the local side of the house um just just just personally I haven't worn an RM Williams boot for over 10 years now um a little boot held up before that one there that's I don't know if you know that's Harold footwear oh yeah I do know them yeah yeah yeah so um to me that's a little bit better made um yeah a little bit better priced for what you get um yeah Harold it's a very small company and then yeah uh wouldn't wouldn't choose another one have you heard of it I have yeah I'm visiting your store next month so that I'm looking forward to that yeah yeah that'll be great um but I mean that again that's another tin of worms of why don't we manufacture more things in this country that are good on the Americans quite frankly yeah well we used to and and I think the Americans also went through a phase where it was definitely a dying art I think and it's only since I think that the um late 2010s when it re re was again because I think small bootmakers like Parkhurst were seeing it um and bringing it back and then I think the Pacific Northwest boots kind of rode the crest of the wave you know point um so I don't know why well like we've lost a lot of a we've lost a lot of boot brands in Australia and be those that survived have tended to go overseas yes that's right yeah but we we do make cochlear implants yes and we invented most things that other people took advantage of correct correct correct so that's terrific Anthony um that was very informative and thank you for reaching out that was that was fantastic thanks for your time you're most welcome take yeah goodbye um so viewers um I hope you enjoyed that if you do don't forget to click on like and of course if you're not subscribed please do so and I'll see you again soon