 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-created conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show with myself, Jackie Jones, and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. I introduce you that way, every single podcast episode, the wonderful Bob Cook. It's good job I haven't got much narcissism. So this, this, the title of this week's episode is working with a depressed client. Yes, yes. If you go to Google and put in the word depression, you'll get lots and lots and lots of sites. And in fact I looked up the most common mental health words put into Google is depression. Yeah. It's interesting now, eating disorders, anxiety, panic attacks, whatever you like, but depression is the number one word in other words that's been used the most. Which I didn't realize I thought anxiety might be, but no, depression is. And certainly... In case the word that people band around an awful lot now, if they're just having your law moved that they use the term depression. Well, I think depression is on a continuum. Yeah. Between what you might just call their low mood to, you know, with the people who've got quite a sense of grandness and they may feel down at that sense, but they're still able to contact themselves in the sense that they're here and now and take ownership of the mood and perhaps it'll pass. Are the other end of the continuum, which is right at the other end, is more sort of psychosis, you know, or intense depression, which will stay around and people incapacitate themselves and impairs functioning. Yeah. So that's that level. Yeah. Right to what you just said there, the other level, which we could call working with the worried a while or working with low mood. So when people have enough adult or here and now functioning abilities to get out of that position quite quickly because they've got a sense of being grounded in this all the way up to the extreme end of depression, which is really where they may stay in bed for a whole day. Yeah. Yeah. And it impacts on the working life and the social life and family life and everything. Yeah. Yeah. You are correct. People might use the word depression when they when they may mean low mood and feeling down. If I think of the number of clients over the last 38 years that might have come into my practice, talk about depression, more of them, it's more towards the middle of that continuum, where it's more than just low mood. It's more, I would say it's intense depression where you've got psychosis, but certainly where the functioning is impaired. Yeah. So I see, I suppose people more or did in the middle of that continuum. Yeah. What are your thoughts on antidepressants and therapy? Well, you know, you could get a thousand therapists and I suppose they might say, say different things. But I see medication very much as a functional tool. In other words, that they help people function. And I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not a therapist, you know, says before they take people on for treatment that they have to be off depression. And I'm in tablets completely because it can affect the mood swings. I will work with people if they're using tablets for a functional reason so that they then can look at the depression or they can actually function. So I say it in that that sort of level. The problem is, of course, medication in my head is that the body gets used to it. So the actual intense amount of milligrams will go up. So if you start on 40 degrees, 40 degrees, I mean, 40 milligrams of medication might go up to 100 and 100. And before you know where you are, if you're 150 or something, the side effects that become more intense. So the important thing is to whether you're taking medication or not is to look what drives the actual depression. But if they're so incapacitated, then I'm okay with them, you know, being on medication so they can function so we can get to perhaps what's underneath it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's what I say to clients. I'm not pro medication and I'm not anti medication. But sometimes it can just quieten things down enough so that therapy, you know, is like you say that it's accessible, they can be more in the here and now and, you know, get something from the therapy. Yeah. Yes, some therapists, of course, that's the well, they don't take clients on with medication because they would argue that it's more challenging to do psychotherapy when somebody's under medication. So it depends where you come from, but I see medication more functional. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing that people sometimes talk to me about is that, you know, getting off the medication, they kind of think that it's the medication that's helping them. And as soon as they come off the medication, they're going to take a massive backstep and go back to where they are. That's that's a lot of people's fear around medication. The most important thing with medication is to come off very slowly. Yeah. The help of a professional doctor or mental health professional where they can have a supportive program to come off the medication, you know, and it may take three to six months to come off it. Yeah. And then they need to have support, I think, to work at what was originally driving the depression in the first place. Now, I think with depression, it's never just one thing. No, I was just going to say that's that's kind of like, I don't know, trying to catch water to work out what it was that started the road of depression. Yeah, I mean, actually, I never say I suppose 100% either psychological level. So there might be some occasions where that the person has such a traumatic experience that leads to psychological processes, and then leads to depression, but usually, it's quite a few things. Yeah, the drives of depression. Yeah, good. Sometimes I see it as kind of like the body resetting itself. Could you say a little bit more about that? Well, some people are really fearful of depression, whereas, you know, maybe one way of looking at it is that it's it's the body just saying it needs time out, you know, to it's it's different for everybody, like you say on that spectrum, and whereabouts they are on that spectrum. Well, yeah, on the on the lighter side of that spectrum, I can see the way you're thinking with that. It's almost like what you're saying, it's the person's process about withdrawal to cut off from, you know, the hecticness of the day or the day to cut off, which then they might call depression. Yeah. On that side of the continuum, as you go along, though, and to the more intense levels of depression, where functioning is impaired to a to a high degree, I think that is driven in and from a different process altogether. Okay, say more. What what if you talk about psychotherapy of depression, especially at a more intense level, then there's certain things that need to happen happen. You know, and it's not about simply looking at coping strategies. Now, coping strategies are fine. I mean, it's really important to talk about coping strategies. That's how people survived, you know, whether it's whether they go walking for five miles, five miles every day, whether it's they go to the gym, and intensely work out, whether they use exercise, whether they use mindfulness, whatever Kobe mechanisms, I mean, it's important to talk about those things. However, you know, if it's still persists, we need to go to a deeper level. So we need to really do a what I'm calling analysis and talk about what's been happening in that past, you know, a little bit more about what's been happening under the surface. So they can feel understood. So in other words, the first step really is to listen to their story. Yeah, of how they reflect on the causes and the drives, if you like, behind the depression. And nine times out of 10, they will go back to certain times in their history. Yeah, often, they probably go back to adolescence and talk about teenage years. They may go to, you know, later times in their life when they've had traumas, when they've had loss, when they've been sexually assaulted, or whatever it is, they may start there, but they often then will go back. And it's very important for the therapist to give the opportunity for the person to talk out what they've often been suppressing for a long time. Because it's the material that's been suppressed, that is part of the problem. Okay, does that make, is that clear to you? Yeah, yeah. That's why I suppose therapy is often called a talking therapy rather than say a physical therapy, for example. Yeah, you need to talk out. It's a bit like, have you ever picked up a honeycomb? Not picked one up. No, seen one. No, it is. It has lots of compartments in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when we're talking about depression at the level we're talking about on the right side of the continuum, what an intense depression which interferes with functioning, it's usually linked to trauma. Yeah. And what happens is that people in their early history, when they've been traumatized or shocked or something has happened in their history, which has been particularly harmful, they moved to what I call a compartmentalized system. And they put that trauma into that compartments. Yeah. About a honeycomb. Yeah. They close the door. Yeah. But it takes such a lot of energy to keep the door shut. They then feel depressed because they're using up a lot of energy to actually keep that door shut. So part of the therapy of depression is to actually help the person talk about their history, their traumas, their life. So we might, might over time, with the clients, you know, willingness of course, open that little door, that door a little bit to start dealing with the trauma which could be driving the depression. Yeah. So first step is to help them understand their story and to talk with the therapist so they feel unstubbed for the first time. Second is to talk about the belief systems and the decisions they've made. Yeah. In response to other people in the world, as they've been growing up in life, and to see if those belief systems are actually part of the problem with the depression. So if they are, if they made a decision that world's not to be trusted and I'm a particularly nasty person, then most people will get depressed with those belief systems going on and on and on and on and on and on all the time. And if they've got a highly critical narrative which is bearing down on them, it's not surprising that people feel down. Yeah. It's not rocket science, but the therapist needs to get to or enable the client to discover that critical narrative, which is often, well, it's led by decisions they make about themselves, which come from elsewhere. So would you say, when, when would depression start as in age wise? Is that something that teenagers suffer from? Is that kind of? No, I picked on the teenagers because quite often people will remember their teenage years and they often, they often think of it as a time where there's a lot of peer pressure, where their oppositional sides is more energetic, where there's been a lot of conflict with the parents around and they often find that time highly conflictual and a time where they can remember themselves feeling down. However, that doesn't mean all depression starts then at all. In fact, you know, you know, we can go right back. I mean, there's no such thing as a depressed baby. I've never seen a baby being depressed, by the way, and I've done quite a bit of infant observation. So it's not, we're not talking about somebody, you know, a baby being born and you're depressed. It's not like that. So things can be happening, of course, where, where a baby, a young toddler will close down. So for example, if you're born into the world to a depressed mother and father, or particularly depressed mother, and depressed mother might be someone who's shut down part of themselves, actually, they aren't able to spontaneously interact with the baby, then the baby themselves might shut down. So if you're born into a depressed family, you could work, you could, and usually do take on that depression in some way. Yeah. So it's not about, you know, at a certain age, somebody, six, seven, eight, nine, 15, 19, or what age you want to pick out the air. You know, there's, there's many developmental ages where people will shut down, withdraw and cut off part of themselves and feel down. Yeah. According to the level of trauma around that will be how severe the withdrawal is. Let me give you an example of somebody who came into my office and I do a lot of the assessments and passed them on to other therapists. And she came in and she said, I've come for my doctor to try some therapy. This is my last chance. I've never had therapy before, but I'm going to try it out because I hear that it might be useful for me. So when somebody comes in to for assessment like that, my first step besides hearing the story is to find a little bit about what happened in their history and how the past might affect the present. Yeah. So when I started to explore very straightforwardly, like, you know, tell me a little bit about, is your mum alive? Is your dad alive? And, you know, that sort of thing. She said, yes, my mother's alive and my father's dead. And then she went to explore it a bit more. She shared that her mother had been depressed all the life. Now, as she said that, and I said, I said, gosh, she suddenly said she started to make connections in her head really about, you know, Jackie, whose depression is it? Yeah, that's an interesting thought. Yeah. And then when I said, oh, that's interesting. She said, oh, what's interesting? And I said, well, I exactly, I'm saying to you, Jackie, I wonder whose depression it is. You know, you've been depressed for 20 years. I wonder if really the origin of your depression isn't in yourself, but comes from somewhere else. And she suddenly stood up and said, yes, that's what it is. I've taken on my mother's depression, haven't I? I said, well, we certainly be good to explore that because the important thing is then if you come to that place, then you can give it back to her. And you can be free of this depression and live in a way which is more spontaneously to yourself and more healthy. So I sent off to a therapist and I bumped into her about six months later and she said to me, Bob, she said, I want to tell you, I've given the depression back to my mother and I'm much happier lighter. And I feel like my life can start again. So it's really important this concept that a lot of what people report is depression isn't their own depression. It's either it's either being one model down to them as a way of solving problems. So that's what they take on. Well, they actually do psychologically take on the depression of the people around them. The significant people around them. So one really part of treatment of somebody is depressed is for them to take charge of the depression. Now, in this case, she took charge of it and gave it back to her mother. And once she did it, she didn't have the depression anymore. For people listening to this, that might seem like a very easy solution to depression. Well, I think it's not easy because she'd been going to doctors for 15 years, she'd been pro-sap for 18 years. She'd done a lot of things that the doctor had said. She'd been on medication for 10 years. And it wasn't until she did a talk in therapy that she started to realise that actually it wasn't her depression, but it took her a long time to get to that point. Oh, yeah, yeah. But sometimes it is just looking at things from a different perspective or a different point of view. That one thing can change everything. That's what I mean by the people listening might think that was a really easy solution. But we get attached to a way of being. It becomes part of our story that I'm this person or that person. This is just how I react to everything. When the reality is that's not who we are. It's a story that we've built up around. That's right. And so it's actually really important that the therapist takes some time, which is where I started with this, understanding the story of the person who's coming to the room. Now, of course, if they come from a place most therapists do come from, is that the past affects the present. Then it's through an exploration of the past that we can get to these new perspectives. Yeah. So you are right. It's how we get to them, though. Again, I wouldn't want to listen to just think, oh, we wake up one morning, go to the therapist and suddenly we get that new perspective. It doesn't quite work like that. You have to be, A, at the right time to hear it anyway. And B, the therapist needs to have a certain way of thinking, which is either way I believe, anyway, is that the past affects the present. Once you've come from that place, we can then start thinking, oh, why? How does the past affect the present? And the most important question is whose depression is it? Yeah. Now, if we look at depression, if we look at the medical, you know, classification around depression, they usually talk about two different types of depression. One is reactive depression and one is indigenous depression. And reactive depression is what it says is reacting to the circumstances around you, developmentally or in present day. Indigenous depression is that you are born with it. Now, I see no evidence, by the way, of a depressive genetic gene. So, you know, I know there's plenty of research to go on and depends on what research you read, but in my readings that I, in my clinical practice, I've never seen a depressed baby. So, I don't come from that place of looking and thinking about depression being genetic. So, I think about depression in terms of a reactive depression and decisions the person has made developmentally in response to what's happening around them or they've taken on the depression as a way of solving problems or they've taken on the depression as a way of relieving the psychological burden from the significant other people and then they carry the depression for the rest of their lives. Unless somebody starts to put in new and new, help them look at the whole process psychologically from a different perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, the indigenous one, the gene or genetics and, you know, having depressed babies and things, that's an interesting one, that's kind of nature-nurtured stuff. Well, have you ever seen, I know you've worked this area a lot, I know you've got children here, I know you're talking this area in your parenting process, have you ever seen or any observed a baby that's born depressed? Not born depressed, no, but I think from the moment we're born we start to make certain decisions, you know. Yeah, that doesn't mean it's genetic, it's been passed down or modelled to them. Oh, 100%, yeah, and it's like you get a baby that cries a lot and you get a baby that cries and nobody comes, so it learns to not cry anymore. They're not born that way, 100%, yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm dealing with and so I see the psychotherapy treatment depression at the tense level about looking to have the past effects of present to all things I've just been talking about with you. At the more worried wealth section I might just, I'll be looking, not only at that, but I'll be looking at coping mechanisms and helping people build in things like mindfulness, helping people build in things like going to the gym, eating well, all these sorts of things, developing different more healthy coping mechanisms, but even then I will tend to look at how the past, where it has come from. Yeah, do you think for some depression is a coping mechanism? It's a way of surviving all these things, yes, all these psychological processes, a way of surviving in the world they live in, and we live in a very stressful world and you started off the podcast in an interesting way really, which is, you know, could we be in a position where as adults it doesn't have to be, you know, with 10, 12, 15, whatever it is, we may want to switch off part of ourselves because the stimulus from the world is so demanding. Yeah. Is that called depression? Well it may appear like that, because somebody might incapacitate themselves, or they may have problems in concentration, or they may switch part of themselves off, or they may appear listless, or they might even have what was called, you know, awakening depression, where they wake up early in the morning. So it may appear like that, but is it, is it at this level a conscious decision to shut down part of themselves because there's a stimulus from the world is so hectic? It's an interesting one, but it certainly lives in the area of the worried well, that it doesn't live in the area of what I will call the intense depression. No. It's, I think, much more trauma-based. Yeah, and depression is often linked with other issues as well. It, you know, sometimes it's seen as a side effect of other things, you know, if, like you say, if there's a trauma or, you know, a grieving process, then depression can also be part of something else. Yeah, I think psychotherapy treatment depression, you have to look at the developmental history of the person in front of you, and help them explore that, because it may well be part of something else, you're correct. Now, depression in its, you know, its simplest form is we depress part of ourselves energetically. In other words, we withdraw and cut part of ourselves off, and we deprive ourselves of energy to actually spontaneously react to the world around us. So we will appear cut off, withdrawn, listless, passive, and lacking energy in general. Yeah. Now, we do those for reasons, and we could call them, you know, their survival mechanisms, and then we cope in the best way we can to get by in life. And we may cope in a way which actually doesn't mean that we interact with the world much, but we sort of get by. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, some of the things that I say to clients is that, and I don't know what your thoughts are on this, we're not depressed 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there will be times within the day where I were mood lifts, where we smile, somebody distracts us, we go out to work and come back and, you know, kind of pick it up and put it down. So it's not always an intense feeling, a hundred percent of the time. No, and again, you're going back to this continuum model. Yeah. So in the sort of blank side, which I think is more lighter, depression, or change in mood, or however you want to describe it, then I would agree with you on the, as we go over the continuum, though, where we have more intense depressive episodes, they last longer. Yeah. That these types of people have narratives in their heads, which are a hundred percent of the day telling themselves off, that they are people who have made decisions about themselves, which are very, very negative. They exist on negative recognition, and they find it hard to switch moves, and they will think of depression as something external to themselves. So the concept you just talked about is quite alien to them, and that is, they can see you're coming from a place that a person can take charge of the, let's put it in inverted commas, depression and change their mood. Yeah, to a certain extent, but not that it's a conscious thing, that it happens anyway. Well, they're now into the realms of unconsciousness and consciousness. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. And I think if somebody smiles at you, I'll give you an example of something. In the cafe across the road, which you probably weren't, I think, training before, I think that cafe had actually disappeared, but it was a, it was a cafe I used to go in a lot. And on a Thursday, I realised that there was quite a lot of people just sitting there, walking backwards and forwards, drinking their cups of tea, and actually they were depressed. And while they were depressed, they were people who had come in and they were waiting for their, their money from social services, because next door, above the cafe, was, was where they used to go and sign off for the doll every Thursday. And the times that I sat down with some of these, we'll call them depressed, at the moment, depressed people with low energy, and all things we're talking about here, when I walked away from them, I felt depressed myself. Yeah. Because if you ever sit with somebody who's depressed, you will probably feel bad about yourself when you walk away. Because part of the psychological process for somebody who's depressed is to project out to you their depression so they don't feel so bad. Does someone who's depressed think about that in that way? I think it's probably an unconscious process around projection they will do. So if somebody smiles with somebody who's depressed, I agree with you, they may smile better and they may have a shift of mood. I don't know. They may adapt socially and feel slightly better because they've had somebody smile for them in a day. So at one level, I think you're correct, but is it, is it actually a decision? I think, I think, I think for somebody who's depressed, they need to really understand that if they think of controlling, that they can control the depression themselves rather than seeing it as an external process, then they're able to move towards changing their mood. If they always give up control to an external body, which is this dark depression that comes over them, they will always stay depressed. Interesting. Yeah, so at one level, I agree with you that if you smile, if you smile with people, so for example, you go, like I've just said in that Captain Smart or somebody who's depressed, they may or may not smile, and who's to know? That smile might mean they feel, they have some relief from the internal critics in their head, so they're able to lift their mood. But do they think about it that way? I doubt it. I think it's like an unconscious phenomenon was, if you talked to them, they just say, I just felt better because June or Bob smiled at me. But they don't, I don't think they think about in terms of taking ownership of the depression, and as a psychotherapist, I think the number one position is to help the person move to a place where they can think about the depression in terms of that they're in control of the depression. And once they get to that place, then they don't have to stay with the depression anymore. Yeah, I get what you're saying about the external environment that causes or lifts it. Yeah, yeah. So, so go back to that example I gave you, once that person had realised the depression wasn't hers, and she could take ownership of the depression and give it back to the external frame of reference, she felt thousand times better. Yeah, yeah. It's, all the psychological stuff is very interesting and it all depends which side of the fence you're sitting on and your own belief system to a certain extent. Well, if you're a psychotherapist coming from a psychedelic viewpoint like I do, that means the past affects the present. A hundred percent, yeah. With depression you will explore the past. Yeah. And by exploring the past, you will get to the belief systems that the person has about themselves and the others. And if you can help them change those belief systems and take responsibility for the depression, you can help the person change their mood. Yeah, yeah. And the only place really that, you know, a lot of us spend very little time in is in the present when you were saying about using mindfulness and things. A lot of our suffering is either in the past or trying to predict the future. That's why when you start to help somebody understand these links and change these things, you need to then help them change their quite often destructive or put another way of unhealthy coping mechanisms even though they pick those coping mechanisms to help them get by, understand that, but they usually out of date. So you need to help them do mindfulness properly, go for, do exercise, take time out. You need to help them integrate these new helping mechanisms because otherwise, you know, they'll just revert back to what was unhealthy. Yeah. Mindfulness is a really good grounding exercise, I think, to help people take stock in this world. I love mindfulness. Yeah. And walking is another one. So these healthy, but the healthy coping mechanisms, we need to certainly encourage however, until you get to what's driving the depression, it's only half the story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be hard work if you're putting all the coping mechanisms in and not looking at what's underneath it and what's driving it, then it's, it's hard work because you're just doing lots of stuff and not actually looking at the reasons why and where it comes from. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why talking therapy and a therapist that thinks the way I've just said, can help a person cure an inverted commons depression? Yeah. Wonderful. Is there anything else on depression that you wanted to say? No, except for that. I'd really like anyone listening to this to think about people who are depressed. They feel powerless. Only they feel passive. They feel lacking in self-esteem. They feel lacking in confidence. And they usually believe the depression is like a black shadow that comes over them. The therapist's duty is to help the client reverse that whole process. Yeah. So they can take control of this depression themselves and are part of the relational process and change. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really important that they are part of the change. Like you said, it's not an external thing. It doesn't just happen to them once they take control of it. And yeah. I think that's really important. So those are my last words on depression, Jackie. Yes. Definitely. So it's about reversing the process. Yes. But they have to get to a place where they take responsibility and ownership of that. And they can only do that if they understand how the past has driven their internal processes. If there was a new client that came to you, would you be able to... I'm not saying that you're a magician or anything. But can you tell physically whether somebody is depressed? Yes. So if somebody... Oh, I'll give you... The way that they talk, the way that they sit, stand. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. So somebody comes in and they are walking slowly in the door. They have very low energy. They appear lacking in energy. They talk fairly slowly or they talk very flatly. They are quite monotonous in tone. They sit down as if they have no energy. And they talk negatively. That is... That will be a picture to me of somebody who's depressed. Yeah. And when you were talking earlier on about sitting in that cafe, I think that was where my mind was going. When you said that you moved away from them feeling flat and depressed yourself, I think we've all been out on a work to do where there's been somebody... Yeah. ...that talks like that, that we actually feel I were... Yeah. ...flattening. That's right. And that's not a conscious decision by the other person. It's an unconscious desire to get rid of those feelings. So they project it onto somebody else like osmosis. Yeah. Does rapport come into that? You know, when we talk about getting rapport with the client and moving at the client's speed and things like that, does that come into it? Because I know not talking about a depressed client, but if there's an anxious client or somebody that's kind of in the hurry-up driver, I can feel myself speeding up to match their pace. Yeah. So you need to slow down. Yeah. But look at the anxiety in a minute. If we're in depression, somebody who's going to be withdrawn, somebody who's lacking spontaneity, somebody who's passive, all the things I just described. Now, I'm not saying as a therapist you go to that place yourself, but you need to, I believe, slow down, be quiet, give the person a long time to explain things, to reflect things, to talk about how the pastor fucks the president. So you slow down the therapy, especially at the beginning, to get some aspect of rapport, pacing, or whatever language you talk about here. It doesn't mean you go to a depressed place yourself. It means that energetically, there's some clinical thinking about matching them at an energetic level. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking the opposite, really. You know, whether they would pick up from the external energy that would bring them up. You know, would you switch up the therapy in the room to do behavioral stuff rather than thinking stuff? No. Okay. I'll tell you why, because often they will feel patronised. Okay. They'll feel out of sync with you. And the worst is they might feel patronised and you'll just lose the relationship altogether. Okay. There's a medium where I'm not saying you go right to the side, but I'm not actually saying you match their hopeless position. I'm not saying that, but you find a way to come alongside them, not mainly in that depressed place, but certainly not the other place which you were talking about. Finding a way where you can at least give them the person in front of you time to explore their hopelessness, to explore their lack of self-esteem, to explore how they feel like they want to kill themselves every day, or to explore, to have the space to do that. And the problem with going to the other place that you actually can destroy that space in a moment. Interesting. The worst thing you can do with somebody who's depressed is go what you said. I know where you were coming from that, so because, you see, the other person on the other end of it, A can feel patronised, and more than that, they can feel that the therapist just doesn't understand them. They don't understand how serious, how this is a life and death process. This isn't just to be frivolous with. So, the therapist's attempt for a clinical process, which is why I think you were coming from, can be vastly misunderstood if you go to another place, in my opinion. Yeah. Interesting. Yes, it's an interesting subject and it's something I could talk about. We should have a podcast one and two on it, but I'm quite happy to stop here. Brilliant. Okie dokie. Until the next time, Bob. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. 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