 Well good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to day three of genetic genealogy Ireland 2018 Dublin Big for thank you first of all to our sponsors for these DNA lectures family tree DNA We've kindly sponsored us for the last six years and continue to do so hopefully long into the future I'd also like to thank my colleagues and my fellow speakers who have kindly donated and volunteered There are free time to come and talk to you for the entire weekend We are all members of I saw the International Society of genetic genealogy and it's open to anybody So please feel free to join. There's an excellent Facebook group. There's an excellent Wikipedia page where you can find out anything about DNA that you were afraid to ask So it gives me pleasure to introduce our first speaker for this morning. It is Martin McDowell Now Martin is with the North of Ireland Family History Society where he is education development officer And they are doing sterling work in the North of Ireland Coordinating the activities of a variety of different branches and they have a DNA project that has over 2500 people which approximately covers about 25 percent of the Ancestors that people would have had in Northern Ireland in the 1750s absolutely incredible work Please give a warm welcome to Martin McDowell Hello, thanks very much indeed This presentation is going to be about Lazarus Can you just ask has everybody in here anybody in here uploaded to jetmatch yet? Yeah, and is anyone Given a go to Lazarus to try it a few people So what I'm going to do is give you a few tips about it explain to you how it works and the benefits of it So hopefully after this talk, you're going to be able to go back and use it and see if it is Is going to produce something new for you? Okay Before you start with Lazarus, you really have to do a bit of preparation and do a bit of work on your DNA It's one of the tier one tools on jetmatch And what it allows you to do is to recreate the DNA of deceased people But in order to do that you have to have people to compare your own DNA with So you have to test as many people as you can As I said, it's one of the tier one tools and what that means is that you there's a small charge for it It's $10 per month and that $10 charge allows us or allows you to Create Lazarus kits only you are able to see the Lazarus kit So it doesn't go on to jetmatch for everyone else to match their kit against Start the follow-up so it is a It is a very good tool But there is that small charge, but once you have generated the kit you can use it Anytime you want to so you don't pay to continually use the kit you only pay for generating the kit it works by comparison and and It's it's good to get as much information as you can before you start to use jetmatch So what I would recommend everyone does is to use tools to identify your matches Because you need to have common matches and get everybody uploaded on to jetmatch for Lazarus to work effectively for you so What is going on? Yeah Yeah, we'll try right we'll try again So yes using the chromosome browser Looking at your common matches and identifying how you're related to people is going to really help you Then you have to put all of your DNA and any kits that you manage on to jetmatch And you have to get other people to upload to jetmatch as well That's very important So upload your DNA on to other sites because if you go to other sites you're going to find other matches So if you've tested with companies then test or if you've tested with family tree DNA You can upload to my heritage. You can upload to jetmatch as I mentioned You can also put your DNA on to living DNA which don't currently produce matches But they will in the future So if you put your DNA out in as many places as you can you get more matches Then you can work at your connection to those matches and encourage them to upload to jetmatch And if you take that approach, it will help you to build Lazarus kits So in order to get a good robust family tree I think that's very important because if you're going to work with Lazarus And if you're going to work really just with your DNA because these earlier slides aren't all about Lazarus They're about trying to make a better job of working with your DNA your autosomal DNA So start to build up a family tree and use genealogy and compare that with your DNA matches So target a particular family and try to work them down to the present day Check your sources and make sure that you can find out As much about this particular family as you can add as many descendants And then look at online trace and find all those people who have tested If you find somebody on a tree and maybe you don't see a DNA match to them It's a good idea to send them an email or a message And actually ask them have they tested and if they have tested they may be able to tell you where it is And it may be under a different name that maybe you haven't recognized It could be that they also have A DNA match to you and they haven't uploaded a tree or surname So therefore you don't recognize that that is the person at the moment So get all that information together As I said these websites and DNA find as many of those people as possible DNA Painter is a great tool for doing that because it can help you to identify It helps you to look at your DNA and helps you to identify which bit of your DNA you got from specific ancestors That's really really useful and particularly if you're going to be working with Lazarus You're going to be trying to look at your DNA in a different way Because you're going to be building a kit for your deceased ancestor But DNA Painter is very good at helping you to identify the matches that then lead you to get in the good Lazarus kit So looking at other family members as I said That can be really really useful You don't only get matches from your own DNA You can also learn and get additional matches from family members So if you have tested a cousin or a sibling They will have got different blocks of DNA from different people That than you got so you may have got one particular block from a particular ancestor But maybe your brother or sister got a different block and that Would mean that they would have a match to a person that you wouldn't have a match to So you're not going to find a match to every fourth and fifth cousin But the more people you thoroughly test within your family the more of those fourth and fifth cousins you'll uncover And the more you can put into your Lazarus kit So you're going to be using your DNA to identify other relatives who don't match you as I just said there So once you have matches you're ready to do reconstruction on Lazarus But before you do that you have to get as many kits on to on to jet match as I said before It is useful if the tests are all with the same company But I they will work if they are with different companies as well Okay, I've just put up a slide here Which is going to tell you about a particular family that I've been working on This is my three times great grandparents And it's just to give you an idea of how many people do descend from one particular couple And this is just what I've found in my research so far That's probably a typical family But there's more descendants even for myself to find I'm one of those 192 three times great grandchildren But there's also people that are on different generations below me So when I decided to make a Lazarus kit, I wanted to make a Lazarus kit for one of their descendants And I was able to get DNA samples from people that were from the two times great grandchildren level down to the five times Now obviously when you're making the Lazarus kit, it's better to start with someone who is close in generation to you So you're going to start maybe with generating the DNA of a parent or a grandparent If you have your parents tested already, then you can work on grandparents But in this instance that I'm going to demonstrate today I actually managed to get a Lazarus kit for a great-grandparent And she is actually one of the great-grandchildren of that particular couple Sorry, she's one of the grandchildren of that couple because yeah, she is my great-grandmother So the advantage of Lazarus, and I'm sure you're wondering why you would go through all this It's actually to get a higher match because if you think of DNA Breaks down into smaller blocks with every generation And conversely what that means is that when you start to Reconstruct the DNA of a deceased ancestor It means that you're putting those blocks together again And it means that in theory your matches should have a stronger match to a Lazarus kit than what they do to your kit So it starts to give you extra opportunities to find new matches So this is how it works as I said start with a grandparent or with a parent One thing I'm going to show you the actual fields that you have to fill out on Lazarus But just before I mention that I just want to remember to say to you that there is a spice field Which you can put a well you're supposed to be able to put a kit into A kit number and that is supposed to help to generate the DNA of their partner But it doesn't actually work and it doesn't say that when you're using Lazarus So it's just something to bear in mind when you see the spice field just ignore that And when I mention that I just want to also mention to you that there is a new tool that you may not be aware of Called map s phasing has anyone heard of map s phasing? yeah There is explanatory Videos on youtube about how it works and I was having a look at them There's less than a hundred people have actually watched them yet So I think it's a pretty new thing and what it does is it allows you to use the DNA of descendants And one parent in order to produce a phase kit for the other parent So that is doing what Lazarus was supposed to do but currently doesn't do So it's something to use and to experiment with if you want to do that if you're in that situation But you have to have one of the parents and then some of the descendants and what it does is it will compare the descendants against the parent And allow you to see what DNA they didn't get from that parent And then it helps you to create a phase kit for the missing parent that you haven't currently got results for so that's very useful You need to have people in each group when you're creating A Lazarus kit or even on map s phasing because it works by comparison So what you're doing is you're comparing your DNA with other people To see which bits of DNA came from particular people and the simplest example I can give you is if you think of your grandparents Your grandparents gave DNA to all of their children who then passed them on to their grandchildren So if you're testing yourself and you test your first cousin What that means is that you and your first cousin share DNA Because you got it from your common ancestors who your grandparents and that came through your parents So if you're going to recreate a kit for one of your parents Then you can do that by comparing your DNA to your cousin's DNA Because any DNA that you share with your cousin obviously come through the parent that you're trying to recreate So it's a different way of thinking about your DNA, but it's very logical and it does work Okay, so you have to decide who you want to reconstruct a kit for There was two different groups and you're going to be putting them into two different groups The first group is the descendants of the person that you want to recreate or reconstruct So if it's going to be a parent, it's going to be you and your siblings So in that instance, it would be very useful to test as many of your siblings as possible Because that will give you a bigger Lazarus kit and help you to get more matches towards it So it's really worthwhile considering testing other people in the family And now's a good time. Christmas is coming up. People are looking for Christmas presents And you know, there's nothing to stop you from a couple of kits and giving them out to people There's also a Christmas present for yourself and it can be used to reconstruct this DNA So in group two Group two is going to be people who are not direct descendants Of the person who you're reconstructing. So if it's going to be your parents kit, you're talking about cousins Second cousins first cousins once removed Those are the people that would be really useful because they're close relations Who would still share a lot of common DNA with you and with your siblings So what Lazarus is going to do is collect the shared DNA And compare them between those two groups So you can put up to 10 people into group one and you can put up to 100 people in group two So it's extremely useful And that is how it's going to calculate the kit So a full kit on Jetmatch works out at 3,587 units of DNA or sently Morgans. So that's a complete kit So you're not going to be able to probably complete a complete kit straight away But you are going to be able to get a partial kit And that's why Lazarus is particularly useful You don't really need that many people to generate a kit I compared a few people just myself just to come out with a few numbers The object is to get a kit that has at least 1,500 units of DNA in it And if you do that you're able to run it through the Jetmatch database and see who your ancestor matches On the database you will be able to see their top 2,000 matches like you can for your own kit So when I compared myself my paternal uncle and my second cousin I was able to generate 2,027 units of DNA So it's really not many people here that you're having to test But by doing close relatives, it's given you that opportunity of producing that kit So I do hear a lot of people saying to me there's no point in me using Lazarus I haven't got enough people tested but that's all it's going to take Then I did a comparison with myself and just two of my own cousins And I still managed to get 1,730 units in a Lazarus kit for my mother So that's particularly good If you do generate over 1,500 units It's called an LL kit and it's given a number that begins with LL As you know every kit on Jetmatch has a prefix Family, 3D and A kits start with a T Etc and Ancestry or A and whatever But LL kits are Lazarus kits Now when you're looking at your list of matches you won't see Lazarus kits Because the matches on a Lazarus kit are only available to the person who generated the kit And the reason that is is because if I made a mistake And I generated a kit that was incorrect and it appeared in your matches list You would think you were related to one of my ancestors And it wouldn't actually be a correct representation of DNA at all So you wouldn't want to do that So it's very good that only people who know the kit number can actually check it You can also generate a Lazarus kit if you don't have that required amount of DNA Now 1,500 is probably between about 20 and 40 percent of a normal DNA kit But under that it would be an LX kit And what that means is you can only use it on one-to-one comparisons So you can still compare an unknown match to one of your ancestors And see if you're getting a hit If you're getting a match between those kits But you can't run it through the database and see their top matches In the one-to-many on Jetmatch So just to give you another example Now this is photographs in the death notices of my great-grandmother and that's our dates there So I decided that I was going to try to create a Lazarus kit for my great-grandmother I've already created kits for both of my parents and three of my grandparents So I decided I was going to go for a great-grandmother And in order to do that I was able to find some matches myself through the various companies Pursuaded those matches to upload to Jetmatch I also then tested members of my own family And in order to get an extra person into Group 2 I volunteered to pay for a third cousin to test And that meant then that I had an extra person in Group 2 That was going to give me the required comparison between Group 1 and Group 2 Don't forget Group 1 is the descendants And Group 2 is everyone else who's related to the person you're reconstructing But who is not a descendant So I was able to find four descendants And I was able to find eight other relatives that I was able to put into Group 2 And that got me 1,544 units Which just got me over the limit But it's been a really useful kit I've already been able to find some of my family 3DNA matches on there And some of those people I now know are related to a particular great-grandparent So that is really narrowing down your field of research And in one particular case it helped me to identify that One match did come through very strongly And I knew that they probably had either a McVeigh or a Black ancestor Because that was the parent in this case And there was nothing on their tree to tell me that I had found an email where I'd written to this person before They had said they had no knowledge of this But when I did a bit of research myself On their tree because it then was drawn to my attention I was able to find they did indeed have an ancestor called McVeigh And they were from Northern Ireland And I'm now currently working on connecting that up I have a theory of how you would connect And I'm very nearly there So Lazarus will help you to identify people And to identify matches that would otherwise be further down Your matches list that you wouldn't currently see Another example of that is a case where I found a third cousin twice removed When I looked at my dad match He matched me for 45 units and was predicted at 4.2 generations back in time When I looked at my uncle's kit He matched him for 78 units But when I looked and resurrected my grandfather's kit I got a match of 136 centimorgans So that was telling me very strongly that he was related on that line Again he had no information on So I found his tree on Ancestry And had the connection within a few minutes Actually had his parents on my tree But his parents had moved to England And I was able to subsequently then find this connection and prove it So this is just now going to show you exactly what you do with Lazarus Because you probably think there's an awful lot to do And there's going to be a really complicated process putting this together But it's not actually it's very simple You have to come up with a name for the kit So that's going to be the name Of the ancestor that you're currently reconstructing You have to take male or female And you have to decide whether you want to generate a kit or not If you want to play about with it And see how you do Then you'll do a trial run And that means it won't generate a kit If you generate a kit It will take 24 hours to fully integrate With the Jed match database Just like a normal upload does So that's the first section you have to do So that can be done in seconds Then you basically just put in kit numbers So for group 1 You put in the kit numbers of the people who are descendants And for group 2 You put in as many other relatives of that person As you have Now the one thing that you have to be careful about Is that you don't have people who are related In different ways to your family members That's very important If you do You should leave them out So if you have somebody who's related to you Through your father and through your mother And you're trying to reconstruct your mother's kit Then don't put in that particular person To the equation Because if you do It will bring through DNA From both of your parents Into that reconstructed kit And it's going to actually skew the results wrongly And give you incorrect matches to your Lazarus kit So you do have to test it You have to check every single Lazarus kit And make sure that it is matching the people you would expect to match And it's not matching people that you wouldn't expect it to match So when you do that You basically press the generate button And it does it for you within seconds And you get three different tables That is where you get the total amount Of the Lazarus kit It's at the bottom of table two And it's very easy to miss And that's why I put it on the slide there So as you can see where it is You can copy those particular tables if you want Because it's your only opportunity to see them But if you didn't copy them and you wanted to do them You could just run the kit again And take a copy of them then As I said, the size of the kit is shown at the bottom of table two The first table will show you a comparison Between each kit in group one and group two And show you which segments it is found Group two is then going to show you a summary Of all the different segments it is found on each chromosome And table three is going to show you How the people that you have put into group one Match the new kit that you have reconstructed So as I said earlier 24 hours to process a kit If you do manage to get over 1500 units So I just want to give you an example now Of just how this translates into Centium organs And how it helps you with your DNA So going back to the example The lady I put up in the photograph This is what I've been able to get just on that small kit Which just got me over the 1500 threshold This is in the first column You can see what people match to me In Centium organs on gen match And this is the match that I got on my great grandmother's kit So even though that's only based on between 20 and 40% of her DNA I'm still getting stronger matches to known relatives And that is also the case for unknown relatives The examples that I've given here are people that I do know But you will find that if you look at your kit As I did in the other example I mentioned earlier You will find that you in a lot of cases will have a smaller match Than you will get on a reconstructed Lazarus Match even though it's not somebody's full DNA The particular good use in this case for me Was that this is my father's father's mother And if anyone knows anything about X matches Males only get an X match from their mother They don't get it from their father So I was never going to know anything about my great grandmother's X matches But through Lazarus I'm able to get that information And this is what I've been able to get on X match I don't match anybody on X Because these people are related to me through my father But because my great grandmother is further up the tree She does match people through females in the family So you can see there that I'm getting some quite successful X matches The entire X match on our odd gen matches I think 190 And a female would have two of those And you can't tell whether you're getting a match on both sides or on one side So I would assume that that's at least 147 Out of one of those chromosomes I've managed to recreate on Lazarus kit So that can be useful Because then that means that I can go into GED match into her kit I can organize the matches by the X matches And see who has the strongest X match And that's given me another way of approaching my matches and trying to find connections So what Lazarus is doing is it's making the segments larger By adding together all the bits that their descendants inherited So bits will have come to you to your siblings They'll have come to your aunts and uncles But they didn't all come to you And this is why testing is very very important Gives you matches to a specific ancestor based on their DNA And every time you find a new match You're then able to rerun the Lazarus kit and add in their DNA So therefore that kit will become a bigger kit You will get a different number And what I would recommend to you is that you delete the old kit Because if you don't you will then have two Lazarus kit numbers for the same person And you will not know which one is the most current one And I have done it So yeah it's very good to delete a kit whenever you're producing a new one So as I said earlier the smaller kits are very useful too Because you can use them for under 1500 But when I'm now testing someone I'm thinking towards What use can I put this person's results Will it be useful in common matches? Will it be useful to paint on extra matches on the DNA painter? And will it be useful when I'm reconstructing a Lazarus kit? So it's a different way of thinking about your DNA And it can help you to make real progress One drawback as I said make sure each person isn't related to you more than one way When you generate a kit ensure that you do testing And testing means that you're going to do the comparisons I mentioned earlier Where you're going to be looking at comparing a kit to known relatives And to other people who shouldn't match the kit Because there may be unknown connections in your family That this could help to reveal There is a Facebook group on Lazarus And that is very useful for asking questions And for finding out more information But one thing that I've been thinking about recently Is what future uses Lazarus could be put to And one thing that I've been thinking of is phenotyping Now Colin mentioned that in his presentation earlier And what it can mean is reconstructing facial features from DNA There's only one company that I'm aware of that's currently doing that That's Powerbun in Nanolabs And they're only doing it for government and law enforcement agencies But it is currently being done And at the moment it's taking 850 SNPs in order to generate that But as technology improves It would be great to think that perhaps Lazarus kits could be used in the future To reconstruct facial likenesses At the moment it can be used for face shape For freckling For eye colour Her colour And it's particularly useful too So if that was able to be done I think it really depends on particular SNPs being present in the kit So I don't know where technology is going in the future But I know that currently we're able to do things with our DNA That I wouldn't have thought was possible a few years ago So I'm hoping that facial reconstruction is going to be possible in Lazarus kits in the future Okay that's the most of what I have to say Any questions? Thank you very much Martin Thank you Great, well okay I see that we have questions already Popping up from the audience I'm going to come down to Jim Hall and first and then Johnny For the Lazarus kit for my mother and father who had passed away I used My father's sister My mother's sister But you mentioned using your parent And trying to see how well a substitution will work So far I haven't been that successful But do you have any recommendations from actually doing that option? So who would you be trying to reconstruct? Well I'm trying to Well I created my father's kit with my three siblings Yes Myself and two siblings And his sister Okay Now I want to go back at least one more generation Well then what you can do is if you're recreating one of your grandparents You can then use all the people who are descendants of your grandparents So that means that your father's siblings would instead have been in group two They will be in group one So you'll be putting them into group one because they are descendants of your grandparents And you will also be in group one because you'll be representing somebody different in the family So you wouldn't be putting your father's kit in there You'd be putting yourself in So that's that's leading me on to another point If you have someone that you have tested and you have also tested their parent You don't need to put in the child in that case Because they're only getting their DNA from the person that you have already tested So if you're reconstructing a grandparent And you have one of the children of that grandparent You don't need to put in any children of that particular child That's making sense Okay so then So in your example you'll be putting in your the children of your grandparent That you're going to try to reconstruct You have to decide which one it is So if you're maybe going for your father's father You'll be putting in your aunts and uncles And yourself and your cousins into group one And into group two You'll be putting other people who are related to your father's father Okay I don't have those but I would have the grandchildren The grandchildren Right that's not going to be any good In a group two Sorry no you wouldn't put grandchildren into group two Because they are descendants of the person that you're reconstructing Everyone who's a descendant goes into group one Okay Okay In brief group group one is direct descendants Yes Group two is any other relative except direct descendants So it would be aunts and uncles of the person that you're trying to reconstruct Or it could be a great nephew of somebody who you're How you're trying to reconstruct I've got a very specific question I hope I can ask clearly enough And it's about the specific case of half siblings Yes My father has got a half sibling on each side tested So obviously if I was trying to recreate the DNA for one of his parents Either his father or his mother All of the DNA he shares with each of those siblings could theoretically be tributable to that parent But does Lazarus actually handle that and harness all of that DNA? Yes it will So I just put them both in group one So if you're reconstructing your grandparent again You'd be putting in the half sibling and your father Because you already have tested them and you wouldn't be putting yourself in because there's no need to Sure and then the people I put into group two Even if they're quite remote they'll still somehow that DNA that Is kind of proved via the half sibling relationship that would get into the kit Yes it would but you do have to have It's good to have as many people in group two as possible But they can't all be fully remote They can't all be fourth and fifth cousins You have to have somebody slightly closer because the closer they are related to you The more DNA they're going to share and the more DNA it's going to pull through into the Lazarus kit Sure and sorry to keep going on And because my father's parents have very different ethnic background There's a large number of unknown matches where even though I have no idea who they are I do actually know which side they're on So my right in thinking I can use them in groups Yes and people do do that I haven't done that myself yet because I like to prove the connection first And I would recommend that people do it in case there's unknown connections That people wouldn't be aware of But yes there's a lot of people that would make that assumption And maybe use their red and blue phasing on family trade DNA Work it out from that And then they would put those people into jetmatch If they can find them listed there So yes it is possible to do that But again I would test the kit very carefully To make sure that there wasn't any on toward results coming out of it Thank you very much Thanks Jolly All right we have a question back here That the gentleman was asking earlier So I'm trying to recreate my father's kit And I have my mother tested me and my sister and a number of cousins So am I right that at the moment there is no way to include my mother That's right there's not on jetmatch But if you use the MAPS phasing You would be able to do so That would be around Okay and do I have any plans to include that in Lazarus kits and get match? No I think the initial plan was From I have ever started to use it It's never worked successfully I don't think they ever really enabled it Cheetah didn't No it's never worked And that didn't work properly either So yeah it is going to be possible I think it's possible already To use Lazarus on jetmatch A genesis It is actually enabled Now yeah you can use it there as well Thank you very much All right and the tier one and the $10 price The good thing about it is that Those of us who don't get the opportunity to do this sort of thing all the time You can pay for the $10 for a month Use it like crazy And then if you can't use it again for six months You don't have to pay for those six months That's correct You can just pay for it again later A couple questions One question about putting your mother in When you're trying to reconstruct your father's Is that to eliminate any things that would be on your mother's side? Well that's what I said The spouse fee isn't working Right So yeah you wouldn't have to That would be the concept But yes that is the concept And that's what you do on the MAPS phasing And it works out I think at $14.49 per year So it's a very cheap price at the moment So it's well worth experimenting And you could use the spouse fee there If you have already created Lazarus You've done that for somebody And then you get a new match What are you starting over again And putting in people you did the first time You would be doing exactly the same Yes I keep track in just a word document Of exactly who I've used to reconstruct a kit And then when I find a new match I would then look at that word document And then build on from there I'd put in those people again And then I would put in the additional person as well Kidook, can we have us in questions down here from Dwayne? I generated an LL kit using Lazarus But when I tried to do one-on-one matching Or one-on-many using the kit It said you wouldn't recognize the kit And you can't see the kit numbers in your right Or chest, is there a trick? Yes, it could be that whenever you generated the kit You didn't tick the box for full processing Which means you have been experimenting with it And you have looked at the kit And you have been able to do something But you're only really doing a test You didn't actually generate it So I just saw whenever I had that screen up But I think you can go back there Yeah, you had the test to our members So yes, you have to go into full processing And then it takes 24 hours to integrate with the database Once you do that, it will appear in your list Of test kits on your home page on Jetmatch Yeah, that's a good confirmation Because it didn't appear in my list Yes, that's what's happening in that instance Thank you Excellent talk, Martin, by the way Thank you One comment In areas where there's a lot of admixture Does that not create a problem for the use of Lazarus kits? It can do And that's why it's very important to test the kit at the end And see if you're getting matches that you shouldn't be getting With regards to an older version of a Lazarus kit Would you not have the possibility to go in to edit the kit And the top page of Jetmatch? No You don't No, no, you have to rerun the kit again Every time you have to add DNA to it Or if you don't find that it's a successful kit Or something is on toward You might want to play around and take one person out And then test it again To actually see if you're getting proper results out of it I'm still relatively new about all this I'm going to give you a scenario that you can maybe answer So my dad is live I have his DNA He's in Jetmatch I wanted to know on a second cousin of his That I just discovered last week In Northern Ireland I've met for the first time She is the last remaining direct Direct blood link to my father's Father's brother Should I get her tested? Yes And then I didn't need to hear the end of what you were saying It's just a yes No, but if you do put that person That person will be in group two And it'll be particularly useful then If you're reconstructing one of your grandparents Okay Very much indeed, fascinating Challenges of only children I'm an only child I managed to do it For a couple of generations Uh, my father My father died in 92 My mother died in 2004 I couldn't test either of them I had one paternal uncle that I was able to test And two maternal uncles So, and again, yeah There wasn't very many people But I'm actually having success in getting further back I've got partial kits for even four times great grandparents I've managed to get maybe four or five hundred units of DNA That I can then use as a tester Whenever I get a new match coming in I can just put them in Compare them against this particular Four times great-grandparent And say I get a match So it can be used that way Even if you can't get to the 1,500 Question here from Pallie and Pallie Walden I have a complicated family My grandfather was an identical twin And just the other day I persuaded The other twins' granddaughter to swap And I've already got a Lazarus kit From ages ago from my grandfather And he reminded me I can have this new cousin when the results come in Yes And then you said make sure you don't include anyone who's doubly related The identical twins married two sisters But I don't think that's going to screw up If they hadn't been married to two sisters I would say that you could have put The identical twins' granddaughter Into group one as a descendant Because they would be duplicating Your grandfather's DNA So you could reconstruct further back And put them into group one That wouldn't work if there was also Cousin marriages within the family But surely as long as the people I put in group two Are related to the twins And not related to their wives Should it make any difference? As long as they're not, yes As long as they're not direct descendants You would really need to chart it out On a family tree check The actual lines of descent And make sure there's no cross-fertilization I'll be very careful when I'm doing it Very wise Any other questions? Yeah, we have a question from Debbie here at the front Here we go It's an observation But there is a consortium called Euro4Gen And they just recently released a panel of SNPs For forensic purposes For looking at things like eye color and hair color And I think it's even things like hair shape And it will produce a probabilistic estimate Whether it's green or blue or whatever eye color I'm not, there is a website I haven't actually checked it out To see if you can actually use it If we're not in the forensics community But I would hope that's something that Perhaps one day could be even Equated into gen-match That'd be excellent On that point How likely is it, do you think, That we will actually be able to generate Photographs of our ancestors? Well, would you notice this in the room That we were going to ask? Maybe Barbara, do you have any idea on that? Because Parabon had done that type of phenotyping With various cases that they're working on How accurate do you think those phenotypes actually are? It really varies a lot For example, I'm a Golden State killer I did not see the Parabon report While I was doing my stuff And so, as you recall One of my criteria for identifying Joseph D'Angelo Was blue eyes It turns out the Parabon report had him with red eyes So it's only going to be an approximation That was likely I've spoken to various people in the forensic community And they are actually very sissy About what Parabon is doing Equationally with the destruction And I think there's somebody in Australia Where they're trying to actually Re-replicate what Parabon is doing So, a sense about science Produced a thing called Sensor-Pact Forensic Genetics And they mentioned the Parabon work in there That it's not really been properly validated Or anything has yet But I think there are still possibilities in the future So it's a bit like ethnic estimates The photograph of your ancestor may change over time Fine, well I think it's absolutely fascinating What you've shown us And you've certainly opened my eyes To the possibility of recombining DNA From the people that have been tested To recreate these ancestors And then putting that into the Into jetmatch to find much more robust connections If you like With some of the matches that might be further down My match list and be lost In the morass of fourth, fifth and sixth cousins So I think you've given us some great ideas For thinking what we can do now With our own family tree So thank you very much Martin, you're welcome Thank you very much Mute you There you are, muted, I hope Again, that was all over the place I tried the other one Thank you very much for that So the next presentation will be from Andrew Millard In about 10 minutes time And just to let everybody know We are live streaming this on Facebook With permission of all of the speakers Oh, Martin Before you go away If I were you, that's for me and that Thank you very, very much Oh, no, no, no No, I'll go towards you You can start your last rest Exactly