 Hello everyone and welcome to our event this afternoon we will be getting started shortly. In the meantime, the chat space is open for business and if you'd like to chat with us, the speakers or each other, that is the place to do it. Have I been talking all this time with my mute on. Thank you so much. Welcome everyone and thank you for joining us this afternoon for hidden stories, illuminating the marginalized in historical fiction. This event is co produced with the San Francisco chapter of the women's National Book Association. My name is Taryn Edwards and I am one of the librarians here at the mechanics Institute of San Francisco. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the mechanics, we are an independent membership organization that houses a wonderful library. The oldest in fact designed to serve the general public in California. We are also a cultural event center and a world renowned chess club. I encourage you to consider becoming a member with us. We are right downtown San Francisco, very close to the Bard station, and it's only $120 a year. And with that you help support our contribution to the literary and cultural world of the San Francisco Bay area, including events like this one with partner organizations. So we are longtime friends with the San Francisco chapter of the women's National Book Association, and I'm so delighted to host them for this talk. Our discussion today will be moderated by Ginny Grossenbacher, who is an accomplished historical fiction author and editor, editor, and I want to thank her so much for lending her time to facilitate this. The other speakers today are all from WNBA, and that includes Cheryl Bees Boutet, Connie Matsumoto, Mary Volmer, and Diana Jovinatso. I hope I said that right. I'm going to include their full bios in the chat space. And I want before I turn this over to Ginny, I wanted to ask you to. We have a large group today. If you have any questions we will devote plenty of time to the Q&A section, but I want you to put your questions in the chat space. So that way we can try and answer all of them. Otherwise, I think we are ready to go Ginny. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Taryn, for introducing everybody. The Women's National Book Association, to which we all belong, promotes books and women in the world of words. In New York City on October 29, 1917, two days after the large women's suffrage march on Fifth Avenue, a group of female booksellers met for the first time, excluded from joining the all male booksellers organizations, and spurred by the fight for women's right to vote. They banded together to fight for equality for women. Since then, WNBA has been dedicated to supporting women and marginalized voices in the literary world. Our local chapter was founded in 1967 by Effie Lee Morris. Me Morris, Miss Morris was pioneering black librarian and the founder of this chapter of the Women's National Book Association. Among her many accomplishments, she became the first female chairperson of the Library of Congress, and was the president of the National Braille Association for two terms. She was dedicated to literacy for children, as well as children in underserved communities and those who learn differently. We hold many literary how to events for writers and authors, as well as mixers, where you can meet with other women in the world of words. Please go to our website, www, WNBA dash SF chapter.org for more information on membership and our events. With that said, we will move now to our panel discussion. Story is what, what happens internally, not externally. The protagonist's inner struggle is the story's third rail, the live wire that sparks our interest and drives the story forward by Lisa Crone in Story Genius. We are so glad you joined us for our compelling panel discussion with four noted historical fiction authors who give voice to the long silent marginalized peoples lost in the shadow we passed. Our panel will focus on ways the writers create fresh, authentic tales that mesmerize readers, engage their curiosity and give them in depth historical understanding never gained in school. These narratives transform readers hearts and minds about the unsung peoples of history. Each author will share their wisdom, tips and techniques for conjuring historical persons and their struggles. Writers may adapt these approaches to any genre that seeks to spark interest in the marginalized of the past, present, and future. So panel members. What motivates you Diana Jovenatso to write about the unsung people not easily found in historical records. Oh goodness. For me, it's a matter of finding women that I that were new to me. You know, Anita Garibaldi was somebody that I had never really heard of until I started reading a biography of her somebody told me about her father actually. And I started reading a biography about her and I was like well I'm going to try this whole historic fiction thing. And that just led me to just look into the stories of these women from the story of Anita Garibaldi came the story of Maria Carolina Charlotte. And sometimes it feels like I'm an investigator, like one of those private investigators or like even a touch of like Indiana Jones when it comes to finding this women's history and I love reading about women's history and women's stories through historical fiction and in through the works I get to discover and write about. Excellent thank you so much I needed Garibaldi was the daughter of the wife of Giuseppe Garibaldi. Yeah, she's basically, in a lot of ways the mother of Italy, Garibaldi is the man who made Italy what it is today and she was his wife who helped inspire a lot of what he did, and was very much involved in the early stages of a time unification. Excellent. Interesting I can't wait to read about her more. I would turn to Mary Volmer with the question about what motivates you most to write about the unsung people. Well, first of all, thank you for the invitation at any time to join authors to talk about books with book lovers in the audience is a time well spent. It was a loss of velocity but also I think it was a sense of loss from the voices that I wasn't seeing in history. At the time I was writing the first book I was doing history talks about the California gold rush. And they were quite dry and they were quite right from the textbooks and missing from those textbooks and those many dates and accounts was any account of women. So I started going back and looking for firsthand accounts of women and they did exist, but they didn't exist in primary tech or excuse me in textbooks they existed more in primary text. And so when I read Virginia will statement that the history of women lies at present locked in old diaries stuffed away and old drawers, half obliterated by the minds of the agent. You know, that has been my experience and as a fiction writer those holes and the historical record gave me an opportunity to imagine my way in two lives that were lost. And also still remaining sense of loss and you know for every revelation of a voice, you on you uncover three other silences that that that exist women of color people of color for example throughout time. And that's so so so those those two things both sense of curiosity, a sense of loss and a real hunger to to encounter, even in my own imagination, what has been lost. And I love that feeling of hunger because, because that is so true also for the majority of us authors working in the genre. And also the fact that for everyone that you uncover there are three others, because I mean their history is is full of the stories of the unsung. Now to Connie Connie what is your response about writing about the unsung. Well, first, I too would like to thank you for including me on this panel. And unlike the other accomplished authors in our company today. This is my first author panel, and I am a debut novelist. So, I can share with you what motivated me to write about the people in this first book that I've authored. And it's very much about opening hearts and minds to people and stories that are unique or overlooked about ordinary people who are actually quite extraordinary. And for me the starting point was empathy, and really caring very deeply about the people and the characters in this book, which really led to quite a deep passion for the project. And so I trust that my readers, maybe affected by the book, and that they too will feel empathy. So that is what empathy is basically what is driving you through your product process to to bring these characters and stories to, to our attention. It is empathy and deep respect. Right. Beautiful. I enjoy hearing that. Cheryl bees but a you write about many unsung people in your work so can you tell us about your motivation there. First of all, let me like the others. Thank you for inviting me to be on this panel. I to have a debut novel, and my motivation for writing that historical fiction model was twofold. One was the beating curiosity about my family lore and not having complete information and unable to get it because a lot of people had passed away and wouldn't talk about things when they were alive. And wanting to capture all of it and put it all down somewhere, but knowing that once I did it it was going to be fiction, because I didn't have a lot of facts. And being able to weave together what I did know, and, and put it into a story, depicting people's lives and the things that they had to face. And the other part of it was my continuing, I have to say irritation with the fact that a lot of history about certain people of color just is not told. I wanted to capture the free people of color in Louisiana that I knew something about from their origins in France with with ancestors who came from France, who settled in Louisiana, and having this town that that I made up depict all of the different lives that I could find the French life, the free people of color, but particularly the women, and what they had to deal with in terms of colorism and sexism and gender identity. And I guess the bottom line for me was depicting in that setting that all of the things that we see today in our lives and all of the kinds of people we see today in our lives existed back then, and beyond. And we need to always remember that and understand that the things that happen to those people and the things that they live through impact us today. It's true history is bound to repeat itself. And the problem is of course that we often make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, as a famous as a famous rapper once said history may not repeat itself, but it often rhymes. Yeah, definitely and people say when they read historical fiction and come to my book booths and talk to me that the sound this is so much like today. Yes. Well, thank you so much everyone for your wonderful responses and compelling ideas. We will move now to our second question, which will be this fact. You are all known for your fresh and authentic tales about marginalized peoples. What tips and techniques bring your characters and settings to life. So what do you do what kind of magic do you use to make this happen for your readers will start with Diana. Um, for me, when it comes to Maria Carolina actually for both both for Maria Carolina and Anita Garibaldi. There's an element of being able to connect with that person on the human this human skill as Cheryl had mentioned, history doesn't repeat itself but history is held as rhyme. I love, I love that quote as well I like to use it myself because it's really very true. And we, as much as we like to think that we are so far removed from our past, really not and there are elements within these that are so much like our own. When you look at the struggles of Anita Garibaldi the struggle for freedom this fight and craving to get out of the status quo. So many women in today's society are still and I say women I mean, not just women, people, regardless of their gender are trying to fight to get out of the status quo. The struggle and the subject of motherhood for both of the women with Antoinette or sorry for Maria Carolina and with Anita, they both have these various views on what they had to deal with motherhood where you have this young mother with Anita Garibaldi who wasn't sure about motherhood and how it would change her as a fighter. And then you have Maria Carolina who is a ruler which that brings a whole huge mess and kind of worms that she has to deal with. But one of the struggles that she has is the struggle of being ambitious and how that conflicts with being clean. One of the quotes that I used within the story was I am a queen before I am a mother and that was something from my mother Maria Teresa, the Empress of Austria had said that about, you know having to marry her daughter off and I don't really want to do this but I am a queen for I am a mother and that quote in of itself really just it hit me very hard, and that really became a lot of the focus within Maria Carolina and that and so, and also not to take too much time the historical record really helps bring some of that to life those those issues that they're having within those primary sources when you're reading it. That really does help bring those characters those those flaws and those desires to life. And then in terms of, you know, bringing your characters and settings to life that first you focus on the issues and then do the issues lead lead you to a thematic thread in the book. Yes, and it's not necessarily the issues per se it's the those desires when you're reading these historical records. When I was reading the biographies of Maria Carolina, for example, there were these desires these situations that were surrounding her and those issues stem from that and, and the themes and the plants also come from that they come from that historical records that reading those biographies and those primary sources is a huge part of the process of being able to write about these stories. So, you begin with desire. Yes, yes, human desire. So much of everything that we're made up of. In general is is desire whether it's the desire to go get yourself a pumpkin spice latte and your Starbucks is out of pumpkin spice latte to the ideas of motherhood and of achievement and, and those sorts of sorts of things beautifully stated. I love it. I love those tips to that that will help me as I focus on my next novel. So, help us, Mary Volmer what what how do you respond to that is that similar to your techniques and tips that you use in. I mean, Robert Haas says poetry, the poetry is in their longing, and I love and I love that the think about that that the poetry of the stories in the characters longing. I'm pretty practical in my approach, you know, once I finally choose a year and the year is very important to me. I then kind of start reading all around that year, 10 years back and 10 years forward. And then to get a much broader picture of what larger context the story is taking place in, and not just this history of the country but the global history to a certain extent. And then I get increasingly more specific. And this doesn't mean this doesn't happen back and forth sometimes I, I discover a wider broader global history and then I'm going to look at the kind of chairs that that someone might have sat in it that that time would do so, but I am looking at the circles of history and it's becoming more and more specific to a place in time, and anybody who's ever written a story set in a, in a town, there's going to be a historical society who knows the great grandfather's of every person who had been there so there's this wealth of information on the local level, but from there to I have to touch the objects. It's impossible. If I can go to the landscape, even though of course I can't return to the time and just sit and feel where that body has been. That's very helpful that gives me more of a tactile spiritual sense of what the character might might have felt that moment, but with women to especially the women I write about there's very little actual historical record. So what I'm doing is I'm going back to newspapers, from the time, I'm going back to journals from women who might have inhabited the same time and space. I'm going back to letters home, and I'm listening for in all of those different accounts voices, but I'm also looking for a voice that's built out of the amalgamation of all of those voices that might stand for, or just kind of, and it rises up, you know they start whispering and the voices of the character start rising up, and their products of a place in time very unlike mine. You laid it in an in an essay to to traveling. And at first when you land in a time, a place in time, you're, you're a tourist, you know you're distracted by the silliest things by the trinkets on the side of the road by, and you're missing what it's like to actually be in that time and place. But once you stay a while and become the next pat, you start to understand not only what that culture is about, but also have a much greater sense of where you came from. You know, this kind of double vision that happens. And after that, after I've kind of recognized my own ignorance about the landscape I'm inhabiting, and allowing that to give me new insight on my own time. That's when all of those other details that I've dug out of journals and libraries start to accrue themselves into into scenes. And it's, it's my making it sound neat, it's messy. It's not. Yeah, it's messy. And it becomes increasingly clear as you go along, but so I guess that's my three tips like start broad get get an understanding of what the world what where in the world they are where in time they are narrow that circle, and then as much as as possible, inhabit the physical space, even if you're going to antique shops and kind of holding the objects that someone might have held if it's a time that you can do that, and then find voices by shutting up and listening to the voices above the time. Yeah. Thank you reminds what you're talking about to reminds me of Zora Neil Hurston's quote, you got to go there to know there. You have to memorize your watching God, you really do, you have to go there and not just physically but in a lot of different spiritual realms you have to go there. Thank you so much, Mary, I'm taking notes. Connie, let's add to the discussion there. So what tips and techniques did you use in the writing. So first I'm going to start at kind of a high level. And I would say that when it's really important to write with great respect to the cultural norms and differences of races and cultures that are different from you. And to question everything assume absolutely nothing. And if you're not of the race or culture of your main character. I would personally recommend that people consider working with a co author or with a developmental editor, so that they have the benefit of the cultural lens with which that race or culture sees through while you're working on the page. So that's kind of at a high level that was something that surrounded the book that I worked on. So setting, I think it's important to take a really deep dive into place and history. If it's a historical novel as my book is. Buckle up for some real serious research. And if you can afford to travel like like Mary said, you never know what Pearl is going to be uncovered at the local level. When I was in Hawaii, the little tiny town of Waimea on the island of Kauai, I walked into the visitor center and met this 85 year old woman who grew up with the female character that is within our book. And her stories were just priceless and precious, and I was just so happy to have met her and to have learned the context of being a kid on this island, many, many years ago. And there's just nothing quite like walking on the hollowed ground of where your characters have blocked. What's a little different that I tried and really had a blast doing it is I role played a dialogue scene with another writer who is a friend of mine. It was something I knew where I wanted it to go. It was an argument, but I just really wanted somebody to have the argument with me. I role played it, and it took that scene into into an area that I would have never imagined. And I was just, it was one of the most fun things that I did, while writing this book. It was excellent. And once again, the importance of being there, and the importance of sharing the space that belong with the historical personage or people that that you are writing about. So I'm Cheryl bees but it does that beautifully in her work so I would like to hear some words for her about your tips and techniques. As you know I teach a class on character developing and during characters, and just to get to the whole point of that course is to enable writers to develop characters that are not forgotten that feel real to them that have life that they become invested in. And so I think there are some things that are required when you're writing historical novels and placing characters into that history. One is that you have to build the world that they inhabit. And the world that they inhabit is where your research comes into play about the time and the place and the idiosyncrasies and customs and war race of that time. And then your characters have to be people or places or things that have integrity to that world, and therefore will have integrity to the narrative that you develop. And they also have to have a lot of integrity to the time that you are in that you're writing about. For example in in my historical novel I, I develop a town. And people read about that town and they say, Wow, I had to go look that up I thought it was real. And so you, you know your ability to do that, and then have everything else you write and put into that world have integrity is very important. And the other thing that I that I think is important. When you're first starting out is to not try to invent a brand new character, try starting with a hybrid of people that you've known or encountered. It can even be somebody you've seen on the bar train that you don't even know just their physical description could be something that you use to start to develop a character. That way, life is already given to that character because if you saw them on the bar train, other people saw them on the bar train or on the subway in New York, because, quite frankly, we are not all that different. We do recognize each other when we see each other as humans. So, I think that you have to make sure that the characters you develop have either high comfort or discomfort or whatever it is inside the world that you historically build. Beautiful. Yeah, very much because readers will pick that out. Oh, yeah. And historical fiction is very popular but they want authenticity. Tell you that. Okay, let's return to another question and some of these seem a little bit overlapping but I think that's okay I think that lends depth to what we're talking about. So Diana, can you point to your particular novel. In your particular book you wrote that best exemplifies the marginalized and the oppressed. You know, some character or some situation in which you really show how a marginalized person or an oppressed person deals with her world or his world. I think I'd prefer that it would be the woman in red will be the best one for that because we have somebody who is from, she was a goucho. She did not come from wealth. In fact, according to historical records she kind of despised the wealthy. She was one who fought for freedom and I think I don't have a specific scene that really shows it, but there are, I think the battle scenes, I think are the ones that really show it because there's that passion and that drive for freedom. Yeah, I mean if you're oppressed and freedom is as possible you will often do anything you can to get it. All we have to do is look at Ukraine right now. Thank you so much Mary Volmer. What would be your response be to that could you give us an example. It's a good question I think the oppression is more subtle, because it's more accepted as normal in the landscapes that my characters inhabit. So in the gold rush novel there weren't that many women. So, what was rare was precious, but it was also exploited women were also exploited for that reason. Probably the Reliance Illinois, which tells the story of the children born into and the women left behind in a long shadow of the Civil War, and the great upheaval of the 1870s when a lot of the gains that women's rights activists were fighting for before the war went away after legislation overwhelmed most of their efforts and there was a huge, you know, disappointment among women reformers during that decade, which also saw the rise of Jim Crow laws and a whole bunch of other social backsliding, even after that great victory, that costly victory. How does it show itself well my main character in Reliance Illinois is a young woman with a wine stained birthmark, covering a lot of her body. If you're a woman in the 19th century you have one asset and that is your beauty that you can sell by getting married, you know and she's not going to be able to do this nor she will going to be able to do you know willing to do the other profession allowed for women for centuries. And so she's got to find a way of living in this world that is not dependent on her social capital. And how does she do that. And, and, and this is her struggle her mother was a camp follower during the Civil War, she was made very young at 13 when she had her daughter. And so these two are kind of trying to navigate post war America as women at a time when women had no rights to their own body. Well, we're heading in there now but with no rights to no autonomy no political autonomy no economic autonomy. And, and it was, it was, it was hard. So that book, and I don't know exactly one scene. The title itself will go that way reliance. You know talks about this myth of self reliance upon which the country is largely built, but women knew very well that it was built on the on the labor of women the labor of people of color, and that we are in fact interdependent and quite reliant on one another. So I made a town called reliance and right and set them all there and let them play together. Thank you. So I'm going to move to the last question here which because we have two minutes left before we have our Q&A with our group. Connie, what one word, would you want readers to take away from your stories, and then maybe add a quick why to that. My word is actually an emoji. Or the audible pause, the audible pause. And that's because I really hope when people close this book, they do say hmm, and they do reflect on the book, and they do think about it. And it, maybe just maybe changes a little bit of thinking. If not for them, then maybe for someone else that they might recommend it to. And what is the title of your book again please Connie. The book is titled of white ashes, white ashes. Okay. Thanks so much for sharing that was wonderful. Cheryl. So tell us about one word you would want readers to take away and why. I'm thirst thirst for more. Change thirst for equality. And the reasons being that in my book, the people the characters that are depicted who are dealing with the aspects of colorism and marginalization are not observers of it. They are the people who are immersed in the struggle of it. And their perspective, I think, is just not shared enough. When my main one of my main characters talks about being with a white male as her partner, and she is a free woman of color, and she tries to explain to him that even though she is wealthy. She is still not happy. And he doesn't understand, because to him she has everything. And the rest of her story in the book explains why she has to tell him in no uncertain terms that she does not have everything. Because she is a free woman of color, and certain things are happening to her in her life that he will never understand. Well, with that, I would just like to thank Diana Jovenatso. And I would encourage you to check out her wonderful historical novels, as well as those of Mary Volmer, a distinguished teacher professor at St. Mary's College as well. And I would also like to thank Matt Sumoto, who is joining us from the East Coast. Thank you so much and I can't wait to read White Ashes. And of course, my loving friend, Carol B. Boutet, with whom I have enjoyed many happy hours. And now I will pass this back to Taryn Edwards, who will handle the questions and answers. Thank you. I'm sorry that the chat space was closed. I wondered why I was just talking into a vacuum. It's resolved now, but I see there are a couple of questions coming in. The first one is by Eva, and she asks if you, ladies, dress up in period costume in order to get a feel for the characters that you're writing about. No, it's a lot of work for to dress up like Maria Carolina. She was a queen. She had it was the 18th century garb and I just, I don't have the attention span. I just had to watch one YouTube video and I'm like, okay, I'm good. I've seen I can understand it. No, I don't dress up like me in the period. I should dress up at least once in a corset just to get, you know, try to do a flight of stairs just to get a sense of really what people are talking about. I do the Renaissance fairs. I go to the Renaissance fair. So I fully understand the, the corsets and the way since and honestly I have to say it's wonderful for the back. It is wonderful. You have great posture. And it does align the back really well so there is that benefit to it. But there is such a thing as they call it a bodice case and when you get to take it off and it's like, finally, that is a very big that's a very real thing. And so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Does anyone else like to wear stockings or I would like to say that I love hats. And so I have a collection of hats and I love going to there's some festivals and having a booth. That's just my thing. And so I love wearing the hats, even if it's a fascinator, because it peaks people's interest it starts taking them away from the everyday of today and, and I think it peaks interest. And so the characters Miss Rose in the second book Reliance is an actress, and she doesn't quite know when to turn off the acting you never quite know when this rose is acting even when she's just talking to you in a given day. And so her, her attire is very important to her so I went and bought a period of dressmaking book that had that had all the different kind of styles that were relevant at the time. And I don't know anything about dressmaking but then I would just I would just go through this book and I could design her outfit from what I was seeing. And that was a lot of fun I can't say that I bought the clothing, but I had a great time researching the clothing and looking at it and being grateful that I was not required to wear most of it now. I would say that that is a very interesting question for me because one of my main characters is a clothing designer. And it would be really, really fun to figure out how to make one of the creations that I created her making in the book and dress up in it that that gives me a good idea that's a thought thank you so much. That's that question. Well, clothes and fashion are one way to understand the experience of women in the past, but Kim asks, if you agree that the emotional journey of women is what really carries the reader through the history back to history in the books. What do you think is that the actual thing that helps readers connect with the characters. Oh, I think I think yes it is the journey of the characters. And like I said earlier, if you frame a character that is enduring enough to readers they become invested in that character, and they want to see what happens with them throughout the pages and they will see the pages to make sure that they get the complete story. And so it is very important to be able to write a character that you can't say that people necessarily relate to, but a character that people have some investment in. Yeah, that's a great answer. What is it that makes a compelling character they're not always likeable. Why, what is it that's pulling you through a story. And any, and you know, the story begins when the world, as the character knows it ends. And, and, and from that moment forward, you have the you have an investment from the reader and you also have like a personal investment in that character forward. What, what are they fear. What are they, what is their limiting belief, what is it that they holds true that isn't that's holding them back. I mean these are all things that can inform every action of the character going forward to as as can clothing by the way going back to that to keep thinking about it. It's that the, the what is it that's restricting you whether it's clothing and social moors are often mirrored and clothing of women especially. And what is it that allows them to unbind to take it off to grow into another bash another form. Lisa Diana. I'm sorry. Okay, well, that was one of the, I wanted to bounce off on things that Mary had said about the compelling characters what makes you want to attach them because I know Maria Carolina did not do some very savory things. But it's one of the reasons why I think in society we are so invested in the villains, because there is something that we can relate to within the villains whether it's the desires or those, those ones but there's there's an element within a villain that we can see ourselves in. And I think that's one of the things that helps. One of the beautiful things I think about historical fiction is that there is an element that's been elements of the character that we can see ourselves in whether it's emotional physical what have you. There's an element to them that we can emphasize with and connect with. And I would like to add quickly that Lisa crown calls it a misbelief that character has misbeliefs that that have been accrued over her life before the story began. And when the story starts, then she's going to be in conflict with these misbeliefs that she's had throughout the story which creates the struggle of her against whatever the obstacles are in her path. I agree with everything that everyone has said on this subject, because you do need to be able to relate to your characters and see, you know, what's inside of them, what what internal trauma do they hold within. What makes them cry. And, you know, how through the story, are they may be able to resolve some of that pain and move on from the pain in a positive way, because a lot of history was hard. And, and people had an awful lot to overcome. They really did. One of the best craft books that I ever read on that subject is the emotional craft of writing. So for the person who wrote for who asked that question. If you're interested in learning more about that his book is excellent. The emotional craft of writing by Donald Moss. Some of your conversation touches on the next two questions which are really similar. Anjali is asking for pointers on how to build authenticity when your characters are not just from a different time, but a different place, and then carry also kind of asks the same thing in a different way. But she's curious about how to create dialogue and word choice to make her characters realistic from that time period so how do you how do you how do you make your characters realistic and authentic. Do you have any pointers on that or any, any sort of rituals that you go through in order to really zone into that characters time place and personality. Well, one of one of the first things that I did was my homework. What was going on during the particular timeframe that I chose in that particular place that I created that was based on, you know, something real, everything we do is based on something real. So we fictionalize it. So, what was happening then, and then to have authenticity for the, even the way people spoke. I pulled a lot of that from the way I listened to my relatives speak in Louisiana and Texas and California and in different places. I also pulled a lot from reading different elements of speech that people talked about had when they were in that time period. What how did they curse. How did how did they insult how did they praise. What words did they use, you know, these are, these are Wikipedia. They don't use that you can do. They don't take a whole lot of time, you know, and if your imagination kicks in you can you can use that. The other thing that I did, and I'm very fortunate to have this. I have a cousin who is French, who lives in France, and he was able to do the French sections of language for me. And I was able to ask him now tell me how did they speak French in this particular place in that particular time. And he was able to give me the French translation for the English dialogue that I was trying to write, and I was able to write the French dialogue. Based on that time and place and so I did every little thing that I could to make sure that I went right back to that time and place that I had created that in that world that I had built to make sure I did not have anything that slipped out, like having somebody call somebody on the telephone. When I knew that there was no telephone, and something a subtle is making sure that the person didn't have a mailbox, because during that time there was no post office yet. And so, those kinds of things, you have to make sure you you do every little piece of research on. And then when it comes to the authenticity for language. I go back, you know, I'm looking at, you know, 18th century, 19th century, and look at the language is much different for for us and looking at that time period. And, you know, I try to as much as I want to get the vernacular of the time there's certain words, the whole etymology there's a little browser that you can have add on into your Google that I use like all the time. There's like words that are like, we're like the word technology that's not really a word that's part of what have been the vernacular during that time period. So, I really had to look at what words would be used at that time and make the guess, you know, judgment based on the time period. And I really want to when it comes to that time period, I also will need to, I think we need to keep in mind. I'm writing some something so far in the past. They were also writing to people in the current time so this, the speech you need to keep your current audience in mind as well when you're looking so far into the past. And I have a kind of funny story where I actually had to get into science with Antoinette sister, and I was working with a volcanologist and it was that was a time period where they're discovering they were discovering the elements, they're discovering oxygen oxygen was what was happening with volcanoes and little minerals and volcanoes. And so I had to take working with the with this professor from Cal State Fullerton. I had the information that she gave me, and then I have to do my own research on those elements and what they decided like the oxygen, when something like what rust was they were still discovering what rust was during the time of my book. And so I'd have to go back and actually like research okay is was oxygen around is that a word that they would have used is that it's an element and they used a slightly different word from oxygen. So those little bits of the history and going, you know the that surrounded the setting also really helps with the dialogue. Yeah. That's fascinating to about discovering of all of these things for the first time, but I agree too that you are, you are trying to replicate a kind of language but you're replicating it for an audience. So keep in mind that if you're creating a dialogue or dialect, or trying to reproduce one less is often best in that case, and that you can suggest a way of speaking and a syntax that might fit, say a 19th century audience 21st century audience is not going to necessarily have patience for that. So how do you, how do you create the illusion of authenticity through that language that that both serves the subject that you're writing about, but is palatable and in fact enjoyable to a 21st century audience. And that's, that's, that's a tough balance. I think it does go back to something Karen Fowler says, and I think you've said it before it's a place in time. It's a very triangulated moment in the world place in time. And in my case I invent towns that might have existed but actually didn't. So I can, I can have some liberty and as long as it exists completely and fully imagined, and it and it could be true. And then, then it just simply must serve the stories completely and create that illusion that you are you are in a real place. And that's, that's fun. I don't know if you open a book and suddenly you're just engrossed whether it's set in, in, you know, the next town or the next century. That's the same art. Yeah. I'd like to tag on to something Cheryl said earlier about using people you know to develop your characters. And that is just a wonderful, wonderful place to reflect, you know what, what did they treasure. What unique things did they say, what was their personality like. So, for example, I'm a student of Myers Briggs I'm an ENTJ. If I'm writing about an ISFP. You know, and that you know, figure out what personality type is that person, and what are the characteristics and the behaviors and the quirks of a particular personality type and weave that into your story. And sometimes easier than trying to do this from the sky. I do, I do a little bit different, different methodology but you know I write my story first. Because I really focus on my character my characters drives my story. And then when I don't know a fact. I leave a blank, or I write a note to myself on the margin you know must look up historical reference for whatever it is whether it's the clothing whether it's the way they, the transportation for example. And I found out, as I was going through madam and silk that in 1850 people in San Francisco were writing around in carts not carriages. And I found that out through a historian. So, you know, it's amazing. But as you write because you don't want the history to, to overwhelm the story, you want the character to be there. We have time for one more question this one came up earlier. It's a question that comes up a lot in writing, writing events and discussions. And it's about finding an agent and writing a good query. And I'm just curious. I mean that's a topic for lots of discussion but I'm just curious if you have anything that you think works the best for this genre for historical fiction. I mean when you're looking for an agent look at your favorite books, like who's representing your, your favorite books and start a wish list of agents who handle the kinds of books that you're in love with reading and writing. And that's, that's a great place to start. And I can say that it was tough. Because Mary, I think you gave me that advice itself. That is fantastic advice I strongly recommend that advice because Mary gave me that advice and that helped me a lot too. Add to be sure to really research the agent that you're writing to, and be able to articulate in your very first sentence, why you're writing to them. Why did you choose them. Maybe you heard them at a conference. Maybe they were acknowledged in your favorite authors book, but why them, and why are they the right person for your book, and make sure that letters absolutely perfect. I teach a query letter. I teach a query letter class so if anybody wants to do that, you know, email me it's it's it's actually very formulaic, the letter itself you can be taught to do it, but it's still really hard to fit all that you need to fit into that letter. First of all finish your book first. I think that's important. Well, although sometimes writing that query letter can tell you what your book is about. If you don't quite know and you're trying to write a query letter that query letter can inform you what your what what it is you're actually doing to I want to thank the people for the question and the the new other ladies for your responses and the next time I write a book I will try that. The particular novel that I wrote is is independently published self published, and I did that because number one I had difficulty finding anyone who had an interest in the story that I was writing. The publishing world is notoriously difficult and particularly difficult for people of color. And I also wanted to protect my voice which I thought was one that had not been out there before the voice voices of women who are not necessarily different than the women that are with us today, but had different kinds of struggles and their voices had just not been heard. And I would also encourage people to consider small presses. Yes, that route. If you go to some of the bigger writing conferences like a wp. Many fabulous small presses are represented there and you can see the kinds of books that they publish the kinds of real quality books that they publish. And maybe they are the right home for your book, but the most important thing, whether it's the agent, or the press is to find someone who's passionate about your book and the right home for it. And yeah, of course there's always self publishing and that's absolutely the right path to take for so many people and for so many different reasons. Virginia was a self published author so don't think that there's. It's so important to have an agent who loves your book like you have to physically feel them love the book because by the time you're ready to get to that agent, you're going to be so sick of that book that you just want to throw it in the trash so you need somebody who's going to champion your work you really, really need that. And, you know, one of the things I want to add on to is that one, and I was taking Mary's advice and looking at the authors, or the agents at the back of my favorite books. I was also looking at their agencies and so sometimes, like the agent might be closed or there might be. You know, there might be other agents within the agency that might be a better fit as well so you can even research those agencies based on the books that you've read. They're sold lately. Yes. And that's a great, it's a great time to plug the San Francisco chapter of the women's National Book Association because you know joining groups like this are going to put you in touch with all different types of writing and publishing professionals and just looking at their website they know that WNBA has a couple of things that that look exciting coming up on their calendar. So I put that link in the chat space. And, you know, I just want to reiterate that never underestimate the power of the network that you create with writers and WNBA or the Mechanics Institute I can't tell you how many times people have told me great news about chance encounters that they have in the library, or at one of our events that has rocketed their, their writing career into one direction or another and it's usually good. So we are coming up coming up on time today and I just want to thank all of our speakers for sharing your knowledge with us and Jenny thanks so much for your adept facilitation of the discussion and ours in our audience. The questions and comments were really quite fun. So I want to thank you all. Thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me thank you. You're welcome. I look forward to doing more with you. Have a wonderful afternoon and keep writing. Keep writing. Thanks everyone. Bye bye. Bye bye.