 This is Bill Doyle in Vermont Issues, and it introduces yourself, but Sophie. Sophie Bettman-Kurson, and Bill and I are here to discuss our new book, A Lasting Impression, which comes from Bill's long studies of Vermont and the people of Vermont. And so, we're very, very lucky to have the information, the story, and the storyteller all in one place. And I want to just note that the book review that you wrote about this book has a wonderful concept behind it, which is that the constitution of the state of Vermont sort of gave you a broad sense of ability with this book. And you've taken it right to town, in my opinion. There's a great amount of information in here. So, I'll just read the first sentence because it says a lot. The purpose of our book is to leave a lasting impression about Vermonters inherent strength and independence. So, that's something that's beautiful about Vermont. It requires us to be strong and independent. And do you want to say a few words about Vermont's constitution? Well, I think the Vermont Constitution, Sophie, is an amazing document and sets the table for what goes on in Vermont history. Because early on we, in our constitution, said that slavery is outlawed. And that determines our position in the Civil War, how people who fought in the war responded and the people who live here. And so, I'm struck as a Vermont and I think it's the Vermont towns are the heart of our state. I mean, the town government is very important. The town meeting is important for the 250 towns we have in Vermont just past a few weeks ago. But I'm going to mention a few towns that are in the book, the Middlesex, known as Bear Town because of the number of bears. I love that. More town, Worcester, Waterbury, the home of three governors, Berlin, the home to heroes, Bennington. And all the towns are important, but I'm just mentioning some that have been mentioned in the book. Barry and Montpeer, Washington County, and East Montpeer did mention. And the special events that we have is the Flag Day and the... So, do you have any general observations about the town meetings from these towns? I mean, you are the creator and the purveyor of our famous Doyle Survey, which has been a stronghold in my whole life here. And I'm sure you've gained huge wealth of knowledge out of that conversation with the specific towns. Do you have general observations that you've come out with? I think it's a real addition to democracy in action, and not all states in our nation have the town meeting concept. It's so important that as a teacher, I encourage my students to go to the town meeting questionnaire and write a report on the town meeting. And so that's why I've listed...in this book, I've listed several towns, but I can't get them all in, but Middlesex and Moortown, Worcester, Waterbury, Berlin, Bennington, Warren, Wasefield, Northfield, Duxbury. So, where do you come up with the questions? Are they questions that people ask you or things that you hear in legislative conversations? I'll start with the Vermont General Assembly. I might say that when we talked about the Vermont General Assembly, having served a significant amount of time in the legislature, I'll go on record and say it's one of the best legislatures in the nation. I've traveled all over this country and gone to at least 20 or 30 legislatures that attended what they were doing. And I would say that the Vermont legislature ranks very high in, as a debating, debate the great issues. And the legislature helps bring forward leaders that often would become our state officials like the governor and the lieutenant governor. And U.S. senators and so on. So, I want to make sure we pay tribute to our towns and we pay tribute to the Vermont legislature, which I think is one of the best in the nation, as I've said. And the towns I've enumerated because I think that I didn't want to redot 250 towns, but I wanted to name some of the towns that are in this book so that the reader will have some sense of what the book is about. And the significance of our Vermont constitution went slavery right from the beginning, 1776. Slavery is outlawed. And that sets the table for how Vermonters feel about the Civil War and many of the events. The importance of the individual is borne out in our constitution. I think it's one of the best constitutions to recognize as one of the best and shortest in the constitution in our country. Was it used as a model for other states? I think for many states. Oh, that's interesting. So, you have seen everyone's comments for years in these surveys. And are there important comments and opinions that have changed your perspective or made things come forward for you in a way that you were able to work with the community to change situations? In addition to some of the questions on the questionnaire about water quality and population and family leave and questions of that sort, I think that's as significant as the results. And I might just say, since I mentioned the question, I'll just say a couple of words about each. The opioid crisis is 90% of Vermonters deeply concerned about it. Water quality is very important. Great support for increasing the minimum wage. Most Vermonters don't think that Vermonters are an affordable state in which to live. You hear that a lot, I think. And we get that in comments. And those comments that we get in addition to the opinions are put in the book because I said I want the people who wrote them have a recognition. We don't do it by name, but we do by quotes. The four-year term for governor, the bottle deposit, the ranking if a governor's got. Now, four-year term for governor, this has been a long-term question, right? And the bottle law as well, right? I mean, some of these questions have been on here for quite some time, right? And have you seen traction with them? Well, the bottle deposit is very popular. In fact, people wrote me and said, make sure we know you've asked the question about bottle deposit. Would you put the question in on bottle deposit? Put it on again. Would you do it again? I honored that. That's neat. So on the four-year term that you mentioned, Sophie, is the fact that there are only two states in the nation that have a two-year term. And the argument for the four-year term that if you're dealing with profound issues, difficult issues, and you're asking 200 people in Vermont to make comments on these, and the four-year term would give the governor more time. Some of the issues are extremely different and can't be accomplished in a two-year term. And so the four-year term is to give the governor an opportunity, the time to marshal support for something that is extremely important. And most governors have an agenda when they're elected. And I think that we should give a governor a four-year term to make sure that that agenda, he has a chance to make sure that what he said he'd do when he or she won the governorship for them to have time to carry out their program. So today it's a tricky day for Governor Scott, right? I mean, he's in a situation where some people would consider him a liar, right, because he's a gun supporter, but he also is a father and supports safety in a learning environment. And I can't blame him for that. Do you believe that Governor Scott's doing a good job in his first couple of months here? Well, let me say something with Bill Scott in the beginning. He knew him as a legislator, as a lieutenant governor, and as a governor. And he takes positions thoughtfully and calls them as he sees them. So I definitely think that Governor Scott has done a good job. I know he's under fire because of the position on the gun issue, but it's an issue that he spoke out on. A lot of governors would not even have made any comments going on the record about the gun. But I think he's done a good job. So should Vermont have paid family sick leave? Yes, that's a very popular, and that's another question I put in because of demand. And families obviously are pretty crucial. Well, and that's sort of a hidden point when you're sick. You're not going to the state house to rally. And if you want to encourage people to live in your state with laws that respect families and families have difficult times in getting on financially. And so, yes, I think that's a very popular, and again, that was by request. Does Vermont rely too heavily on property taxes for funding education? The answer overwhelmingly is yes. And it's yes because the taxes are high. And as I read all the comments, that's the most frequent comment, Sophie, is that taxes so high leads some to myself. I'm going to leave the state because of that. So many people have said I'm going to leave the state because of high taxes. And so I think one of the key issues of the legislature this past session and the past ones is to be aware of that. And I think efforts were made during the recent legislative, past legislative sessions to try to keep property taxes under control because if property taxes are going to keep, I'm going to lose people because of property taxes. Losing people is not a good way to conduct a state. Yeah, well, right, our GDP hasn't changed in 30 years, 25, 30 years. That's right. I'm all right about it, you know. But probably some people aren't. That's good, that's what it's all about. Are you satisfied with Vermont's health care? Generally speaking, most people think we could do better. That's the sum and substance of the survey on health. Okay. Are you optimistic about Vermont's economy? Again, it's a question and most people are worried about whether our economy is pumpkin as well as it could. And when competition was 49 other states. I have to say though, in my opinion, Vermonters have always been so self-sufficient. I think sometimes our economy boots them out of the cycle because they're not part of a corporation. And then that, I wish there was some way to make that more economically viable for Vermonters because I think people have the ability, right? I mean, anyway. Just to carry on. I'll put in a question like that that conveys your thought. Excellent. Thank you. Do you believe that Vermont values are a reason that many people choose to live in Vermont? Most Vermonters believe that they're here because they believe in the Vermont values of good government and participation. And a lot of people who affirmatively have lived in states which they like to squish states but they've never had a chance to participate as much as in Vermont. Vermont is a participatory state and that's getting right to town meaning again. I think you're so true. That's a great line. So I think the Vermont town meaning is, gives Vermont a chance to participate in their town meaning, participate in their government. And I know a lot of people, because of that participation, choose to live in Vermont. To stay. Was that the case with you? It was one of the contributing. The first case was that the first case was that operatives have a job in Vermont. That was very important. And getting a job in Vermont was in part because I knew in advance, I'd known enough about Vermonters, seeing them perform in other states and have a great admiration only for Vermonters as individuals but as a Vermont legislature and the town meanings. And I think Vermont does well. I rank Vermont high grades on local and state government. Okay. Next question. Should we reduce Vermont's prison population by using alternatives for nonviolent offenders? Well, there are people who, and the result is most Vermonters think that nonviolent offenders should be given more consideration than who are violent, obviously. And I think that the legislation, our legislature takes that into consideration and I think I'm pleased with the way the legislature deals with that issue. And I think it's a good idea. Me too. Are you satisfied with the quality of education in your local school district? Well, first of all, I'm very happy. As a former school board member and a service school board in Montpelier, I think that our local boards perform very well and it's a thankless task. There's virtually no compensation, maybe one or $200 a week or something. But to be able to serve on a school board gives an investment of time and effort and I publicly give credit to anybody that serves on a Vermont school board. And I think it's, again, it's part of our process and governmental process and I rank Vermont school boards, the work that it's done, our school boards perform well. So I just want to show off, this is the Doyle poll from 2018. It's known as the Doyle poll, but we prefer to call it the Doyle survey. Yes, I do. It is a survey, not a scientific poll, it's a survey. And I just want to show you, this is the collection of Bill's surveys starting in 1969 when he started, you know, taking the pulse of Central Vermont. Vermont, I did even 10 back if it was all of Vermont. All of Vermont. All of Vermont starting in 1969. So this was the 50th anniversary of it, right? That was kind of a big deal. Well, so half of this book is a study of that work, of the outcomes of the surveys over the years, the changing of the questions and the sentiment and the outcome for the state. And I have to say, Bill, this is one of, I think, the most innovative ways that you could come across to really understand, you know, how your community feels about things. And I am very grateful to you personally for thinking of all of our opinions. Well, you do mention just opinions a minute ago. It has to do with opinions, and many of the most important opinions which I put in the book come from the people who fill out the forms. So the survey would be less important if we didn't have the wonderful comments that people write in their own views on various topics. Some topics I don't know about. Oh, right. I'm sure you've gotten a bit of education yourself on this project. It's really been an education. Huh. So I have a couple of other questions. Do you want to discuss the importance of those comments and opinions a little bit? I mean, like, are there ones that really changed your mind about your vote or were there points in the survey where you sort of readjusted your take on things? Well, it does influence my take on things as you point out. But obviously, it depends on the question. You can imagine the first question, the opioid crisis, many, many comments on that. A deep concern. Water quality or the many comments. The minimum wage gets support in Vermont in the survey. Most people don't think Vermont is an affordable place to live. Many of Vermont is expressed concerned about the decrease in Vermont's population. We already talked about the four-year term for governor. That's probably not going to happen right away, but sometime in some years, Vermont will have a four-year term every state in the nation, but two, New Hampshire and Vermont have a four-year term for governor. The bottle deposit was greatly supported and by comments. We already talked about Governor Scott. Paid family leave, we've discussed that already. Too heavily, too heavily on property tax, we've discussed that already today. The Vermont's economy is, the survey returns, there's Luke Moore among the Vermont's economy. We could do better. We talked about Vermont values, the reason why people choose to live in Vermont and people, that's a very strong support and deservedly so. We already talked about the prison population by using alternatives for nonviolent offenders and are you satisfied with the quality of education in your local school? I think that most people are satisfied with the quality of education. You'll get, every town will have a different opinion, their own opinion as they should, but I think in general, Vermont is trying to work for quality of education and can be proud of some of the many of the school boards. Now you wanted to talk about apportionment a little bit. Does that come in with that part of the budget? Education? I mean, is that... I've served on committees that do the apportionment and it's an extremely... a government operation is an extremely important committee and apportionment is one of the keys things we do on that committee. So, obviously, apportionment is all about fairness and giving equality to each individual. If you give certain segments of influence in a particularly town or a county or a nation, I mean, I must say that that Congress itself is... it's a major issue for Congress and it's a very key issue that you have and the influence that you have as a state. So, as a committee, our committee felt that no issue was more important than with apportionment because you have to treat individual fairly and with equality. I'd hate to say it, but there are many states that don't exactly do that. But you believe Vermont does? I think Vermont tries to do that. But all states grapple with apportionment and it's a matter of fairness and being fair to treating people equally. One thing I will say that it was... I think it's on the top of Vermont's agenda. I think at this point, right, with the economy so odd and things like with the opiate and depression and all that stuff being so rampant, I think apportionment's really key in this particular time. Do you think local government is able to affect that through your survey being vocal about what is important to them? I think on the question of apportionment, treating people equally is a key idea. And as in Vermont, I think we treat people and the equality of people extremely important. And I think with... And there are federal laws that you can't have directly out of the loop apportionment plans because that would be a court in the Supreme Court. You could lose the Supreme Court. Actually, the Supreme Court just recently has thrown out many laws passed by states because they haven't counted people equally. Interesting. That's why I asked the question. I give Vermont high grades on the apportionment issue and what's on the committee that deals with apportionment takes it very seriously and it's a very important committee and I'm very proud of them. So, do you think Vermont, by not doing a lot of gerrymandering, we're making the apportionment more accessible for ourselves? Or do you think states that are dealing with that, do you think they're miles behind us, rather? I think that states that don't treat people fearly and that's what it's all about, certainly lose that on the process because if they're cited by the Supreme Court and the laws that they passed, no Congress wants them, laws thrown out that they've passed, it's a key issue in many, many states and I think that no state tries harder to treat people fearly and I think Vermont ranks very highly on our ability to deal fairly with the apportionment of people. I mean, education's your subject so I'm sure this has been a really tough one for you as far as, you know, watching from both sides of the table there. Do you, I was going to ask you though, I don't, well, tell me what you're thinking. Go ahead, you asked a question. Well, I was thinking maybe we should talk about some of the heroes in the book and the people that have come before us that made Vermont what it is already. Well, the one that I was, the one I was thinking was, well, there's the spitting lion. The spitting lion of Vermont. A person with a great personality, a fierce temper and again, it's not treated very well by history. But an exceptional example. An exceptional example. I mean, he was hired, should I tell the punchline? Go ahead. He was hired from Chittenden County jail to represent New York in Congress. Did I get it right? You did. Totally crazy. Go ahead. There's some really wonderful biographies in this book that sort of show, I think what you're talking about, this strength of people from this area maybe given by weather and defiance of weather, I'm not sure, but Senator George Aiken was another one that you actually worked with and maybe you have a comment on him There's no person that served this nation for whom I have a higher regard than George Aiken to know the person and know the depth of his knowledge and the fact that he was as good as a legislator as you'd ever find and since he represents Vermont we obviously felt he should be in this book so we do have high commendation for George Aiken's work. Now, you've gotten to work with several different Vermont governors, right? And he was the first on that list? Well, of course, he was never governor, but he was a... Oh, he wasn't governor? I thought he was governor. Maybe I got it wrong. Aiken? So, do you remember a lesson that you learned from him? Just common sense and hard work and getting out into the country and getting to know the people he represents. No one ever did that any better than George Aiken. Okay. So really knowing the people? Yeah, getting out and getting to know people. And you took that pretty seriously, huh? I tried to model myself like him in terms of the hard work and getting out to know people that you represent. And I mean, I followed you in the last campaign round. You were serious. There was no backing down. I mean, you were going to get the votes. And so, I mean, back then, I think it was probably harder to communicate with your whole community, right? He didn't have a survey. And so would you say that community participation is about at the same rate as it was then? I think community participation with our school boards and local government and so on is as good as any state in the nation. And as far as legislators are concerned, the way to run for a house seat, for instance, door-to-door, no, nothing can be more representative in getting out there than that. So I commend the state of Vermont that probably as much as any other state or more than any other state doesn't depend on the party strength, but depends on going door-to-door and talking to people. That's the strength of Vermont. And I salute particularly this House members who have to win have to go door-to-door. I know the people they're going to represent. Humbling, I bet. It is humbling. It's the right thing to do. Yeah. Are there some other people in your legislative experience that you think exemplify the characteristics of Vermonters that you think give the endurance to the state and the constitutional concepts? Rather than pick out individuals, I would just say that the Vermont legislature and traveling around the nation over the years to many different states, I think our legislators work hard. They get out there. They see the people. They show up at meetings. And so I think that's why I think Vermont has one of the best legislators in the nation have always said that. And you think it's because of the physical going into the communities and discussing stuff with the towns? Yes. In Vermont, you expect it to show up. If it don't show up, then you may lose your seat. Yeah. I bet that's true. Are there little sayings like that for legislators? If you don't show up, you'll lose your seat. I think it goes unsaid. Oh, well, that's a good thing. You might understand that without having it said. Right? Yeah. I bet that's true. Famous favorite Vermonters? Well, I would say, in general, the people who served us as governors have invariably served in the legislature. And I think that I would stack up our Vermont governors against any other group of governors over, you know, a 200-year period. Uh-huh. So I show up at Bokeh and give credit to our governors and I give credit to the people who service in the Senate, in the House, in outstanding legislature and our governors who have distinguished themselves. So I won't... Well, one I remember is Robin Roberts. Yes. Right? Who was a baseball Hall of Famer from Vermont. Right? And then another one was our courageous and very quiet Calvin Coolidge. Silent Cal. Who is a fabulous Vermont character and representative, and that he really was morally sound due to, you know, his upbringing, I think, in Central Vermont. You said it's something that... Something that goes wrong in this nation of Vermont. There's more than people in any other state would find ways to solve that problem. The stores of Vermont would keep them safe, right? Yes, the stores of Vermont would keep Vermont in the right track. And another character I wanted to bring up was Abby Maria Hemingway, who was a like-minded historian to yourself. Yes, and she ran for office. She had virtually no money, but she went everywhere. She was a brilliant person, and that's why as a very outstanding public servant, I put her in the book because of her outstanding writing and her performance in office. But she went town to town and collected information on the different individuals, right, in each town. She knew her town, and I think on that score, I think that our representatives, particularly the House members, because they're closer to the people than senators are, our legislators are exceptional people who do their homework. And that's why I would rank again the Vermont legislature way up there as you take a look at the other 49 states. So, a lasting impression by Bill Doyle and Sophie Betman-Kurson here, printed by Leahy Press in 2018. I guess it was printed this year. And many thanks to Sophie Kostin for asking the good questions. I will have to disclose it to one of the star students that I enjoyed having you in class. I loved being in your class, Bill. It was fabulous. And I have to thank you for doing your homework and studying and learning about all these wonderful people who you've brought to the forefront and that we as Vermonters need to embody their energy and foresight and continue the struggle for solid moral ground in this beautiful state, huh? I simply have to add to what you've said, which you've said very well, is to make tribute to the Union River Community Access, who's done a phenomenal job in the state of Vermont. We could say it's improved the quality of discourse in Vermont because of the wonderful program that they have. I agree with you 110%. Thanks, Sophie. Thank you, Bill. Best of wishes now. Yes. Keep up your good work. Bye, Bill's book.