 It was a little boss in... Hello, welcome to Going Deeper. I'm sitting with Rich Michelson, and we're continuing our conversations with the local literary and otherwise award recipients for the SAMI Awards for 2019. So, welcome. Well, thank you. Glad to have you here. Pleasure. Yeah. So, I was looking at your work. It's nice to have the table full of your children's books. 19... Every table should be full of my children's books. Exactly. All right. It's 19 total. Is that... Yeah, I really don't. I don't really keep track. Yeah, that's what I got. And all your other adult poetry, your beautiful gallery, and all the ways that you have contributed to art and literature and children's literature. So, my first question I want to get to is, what is it? What was it? What are some of the themes of your childhood that kind of informed and influenced this work that you do today? Well, it's funny. You know, probably most people know me for my Jewish-themed children's books. But in fact, I grew up with no religious education of any kind. I did not go to Hebrew school or day school. I was not part of Mitzvahd. In fact, my mother was very anti-religious and atheist to the extreme. My dad was working all the time and had no interest. So, I grew up in a household with none of the trappings of Judaism whatsoever. We didn't celebrate the holidays. And I kind of joke is the first synagogue I ever stepped in was when I started getting invited to speak in synagogues. Sure, yeah. But my wife, on her own behest, decided to convert to Judaism after we were married. And you'll have to bring her in for that interview. Sure. It was not my idea and I was actually against it. But it was really during her conversion, which she was part of a class of two, the other being our mutual friend Julius Lester. And really when I went into the JCA, the Jewish Community of Amherst, the first person I saw was Julius, who I knew really from his first book, Look Out Whitey, Black Power, Gonna Get Your Mama, as a Black militant. And I was surprised to see him there. We developed a friendship. And it was really through that friendship and also my wife's questions. She would ask me things as she was studying like, well, why does this happen? And I would say, how do I know? But I started reading along with her. And I realized how little of my own background I knew. I knew I was interested in history. I knew the kings and queens of England. I knew Russian history. But I had no idea where my own family had come from, where my grandparents were from. In a sense, the lineage debt brought me to who I am. So I'm a writer. And so in order to figure things out, I started writing about my past. I'm trying to give myself a relationship with my grandparents that I didn't really have. And the more I studied, I was writing things down. And some of them, not all, but my first children's books are all children's poetry. I consider myself a poet first. But a lot of my work was related to that. Probably my best-known books actually would be as good as anybody about Martin Luther King and Abraham Joshua Heschel. That's this one right here. And I grew up in a neighborhood that when I was born was 90% Jewish. By the time I left, it was 95% African-American. We were really the last of the white families to leave the area, not for any social reason, more for economic reasons. And so the other things that a lot of my books and my poetry and my children's books have to do with race and social justice. Yeah, that actually was my second question. So before we get into that, I'm curious, was your mom's aversion and it seems like more of an aversion than just neutral secularness? Yes, when I started speaking in synagogues, she said, where did I go wrong? I was going to ask, was she alive that she had to respond to your... Yeah, I mean, my mom passed away last year. We were very close. I think she was certainly proud of me and she liked seeing the books out there, but she had no... So was it her parents who immigrated from somewhere? Yes, her parents came from Poland. Were they religious? They were very religious. So she was kind of responding. She rebelled against that, against the Orthodox upbringing. And she was very adamant in her non-beliefs. It's so interesting. I have to say that even though I'm steep now in the Jewish culture, I still share most of her beliefs. Yeah, but it's so interesting that somehow Jennifer, your wife, was able to do some healing, inadvertently with you and for your mom to the extent that it helped her get less detached from her past. And I think both my children actually relate very strongly. My daughter's a composer and she's doing very well. We're very proud. And she's had a number of pieces off Broadway. One, Tomorrow of the River was probably had a long run and was based on the biblical story of Tomorrow. Her most recent work is called Song of Songs of Songs. So my wife actually went into labor while in the mikva for your non-Jewish readers. That's the purification that you go into when you decide to convert. So our daughter was Jewish by about 20 minutes. Wow, that's so interesting. Wow. Well, yeah, the segue about Julius is important because I see in your books, your children's books, there's a theme about Jews and Blacks and how the relationships between Jews and Blacks. So are some of these autobiographical? It sounds like they are. Well, Across the Alley is probably the most autobiographical book. That's it. Yeah, this is the one I was looking for. And that's about a Jewish boy and a Black boy who aren't allowed to play with each other during the time of segregation. So did you have a friend? Yes. But their bedroom windows face each other and they become best friends at night. Of course, I'm a writer. I'm not a biographer. All the stories have bits of truth and bits of fancy. Julius actually recorded my book as good as anybody. Wow. And he was able to do all the voices. The African American voices, the Jewish voices. He had a beautiful voice. Yes, we listen to his song every time we open a show. That's right. That was the canter at both my daughter's Bartmitser, my son's Bar Mitzvah. Yes. We had a Black canter and a woman rabbi. Right. And most of our audience had never been in a temple and they just figured that's the way it is. Right. Nobody thought that was unusual. I have a great story about the JCA that way that there was a child who leaned over. This was years ago when Rabbi Sheila was there. And then some man was on the Bima and the kid says, they let men up there. That was such an anomaly to have a male person which is very sort of ironic given the history. Well, I started out as a poet and in fact Julius was very central to my writing for children as were a number of other factors. My gallery of course represents a lot of wonderful children's book illustrators. But my dad was a victim of gun violence. I do write about that in my adult work, not in my children's work. And it was racial. And I had written an essay about that. I forget for what magazine at the time. But Julius sent me an email afterwards and said it was a wonderful essay. It was very moving to him. And he thought I had a lot to offer as far as healing and bringing people together. He said, you know, you can either get bitter or you can try to heal. And he thought that I should try my hand at writing for children. So he was central in my life in that way. I should say it already were in a couple of books of poetry for children. But I hadn't really started writing what probably more people are familiar with are the books on race and social justice. Yeah, wow. That's really very moving about your father and that whole, you know, the whole thing with Julius and Jennifer and you and your mom. It's a really beautiful kind of... And let me just say, you know, again, since it's not something I often talk about, but the gun, we need to get a handle on that. I mean, for me, it's been many, many years. I see it every day affecting other families. And we really, you know, it's time. It's time that we came together and made a difference in the world. And it's so interesting now that we're talking about that but in New Zealand, this 33-year-old, 38-year-old, I think she was, mayor, or what, no, prime minister. Right, the prime minister now. In six days, she's changed the, you know, they've really acted on it. It is possible. It's a possible you need the will. People need to come together. And you need the absence. In this country it's a shame because most people are of the same opinion. No, I think the lobbyists have a lot to do with the money behind it. Well, yeah, that's a very important story. I'm glad you shared that. Why don't we talk a little bit about your adult poetry? Okay, always happy to. What are some of the themes? Well, the themes are really not that much different. You know, my poetry tends to be narrative-based. It tends to deal with current events, racial problems, you know, some Judaism and the world that we live in. So, you know, it's not a big stretch for me between writing for children and writing for adults. I think a big difference is that when I write for children, I really know ahead of time what the book's going to look like, what I want to say. And when I write for adults or really for myself, you know, it's a different process. I'm never quite sure where the work's going to take me. You know, it's much more of a discovery for me with the children's books. You know, I'm interested in language. I'm interested in making it. You know, with all this talk, I want to say that the books are often funny. They're fun. I don't want to look, you know, over heavy. There's nothing worse than writing a children's book with a message. It has to be a story or kids are not going to be interested. They're not going to want it. It's got to have some humor. It's got to have some movement and excitement. If you're writing with a lesson, you're not going to write a book that kids are going to be interested in. But still, you know, it's not as free-flowing for me as the poetry is. So you talked about poetry that has sort of current event kind of meaning. Did you bring any poetry that you'd like to share? Well, I did bring a poem. Most of my poems are longer. I think my next book is very heavily based, as many artists are dealing with these last few years. Current events, I think, is something that I'd prefer it the other way, but is blossoming in the poetry world, in the theater world, in movies. We're all trying to take back some semblance of sanity in poetry. We're trying to take back the language so that it means what it says, not this George Orwellian lingo that is in the government now. And my good friend, the poet Martina Spada, has an anthology coming out in the spring. Poems that have to do with Trump's world and election. And what poets can do to try to change the tide. And I'm happy to have work in it. But I brought, which I hadn't meant to be talking about my dad, but since it came up in the conversation, I'll read a poem that is in my book More Money Than God. I have it, you'll notice, printed out in 18 point type, because I can no longer read my own books. I've read it at that age. But this is a poem that I think touches on a little bit what we spoke about, the neighborhood I grew up in, which was very poor, and my love of art, which developed somehow from that. It's called More Money Than God. More money than God, my father said, again and again, shaking his head in disbelief at any ostentation. The neighbor's gold-plated knocker, we still banged fists, or my own lust to own the autographed edition, or the waxed bronze bust. It is not only the idea which should hold all the pleasure, but the poet's pencil marks on paper, which we treasure above the memorized poem. And so I fan my flushed face, signaling the fast-talking auctioneer, who has traced the provenance and picks up the pace, multiplying offers. And who now does my father's bidding? Heaven's coffers, perhaps, are for the destitute. But why did he have to die to escape the lousy, crime-ridden, never-to-be-gentrified neighborhood of both our births? The cost of living, he would argue, is not the worth of being alive. But still, he checked each lottery ticket, which littered the empty lot next door, praised their silver latex glitter, praying to the beautiful unscratched, like little gods. Money talks, he taught me, but nobody beats the odds. So that's from my book More Money Than God. And... And how totally poignant nobody beats the odds, and he certainly didn't. You know, we have to change the odds, right? We have to move things to a different angle. I brought a very short poem from one of my children's books, too. That's here. And this is from a book called S's for Sea Glass, which I think you have right over there. We're coming into this spring and summer. Yes. And I'm pleased I have a little gingerbread cottage in Oak Bluffs. Oh, very sweet. Where I got to sit on the porch and write this book. It's an alphabet book for young kids going to the beach. Very sweet. And again, a little different than most of my work, but I was commissioned to write it. I was happy to do so. And actually, if you want to open it to tea, we'll do that. Tea is for tide. And while you're doing it... Oh, wow. That's good. Right there. This is just like the way things happen in a library, given that you're getting this award. Each day the tide's high, and each day the tide's low. The world's full of mysteries we'll never know. The moon orbits Earth, and the tides are affected. No matter its form, all matter's connected. As sure as it ebbs, the tide also rises, and each day the world is full of surprises. Very good. So that's a beach book for some young kids. You're right. Very upbeat, happy book. Very nice. And notice the white kid and the black kid playing together. Well, I don't do the illustrations, but they're wonderful illustrations. So we have some time left. I want to talk a little bit. You're getting this award. The Sammy's are April 25th. Yes, please come. Everybody come. Yeah, please come. Support the Jones Library. Exactly. That's what we're here to say. And I know that they are actually auctioning me off to come to your book group, to talk about children's books or adult books. Nice. And as part of that, we're also giving an original limited edition of G. Clay print from one of my children's books called Bussing Brewster. I didn't bring it here. I didn't give it to. And it's about a black child bus to an old white school. And you also get a wood engraving by Barry Mosier. So come, bid. You can bid online. The Jones Library appreciates your support. It's a wonderful library. I stop in almost every day for something or other. Yeah. And it's an able to treasure. Bruce Watson, the other recipient this year, is also a frequent. He does a lot of his writing there at the library. So that's very sweet. And your relationship to the Eric Carle Museum is also connected because the Eric Carle Museum is also a recipient. They're getting the Institution Award. Institutional. And the Eric Carle Museum, you know, so talk a little bit about that. I own and started our Michelson Galleries in Northampton. We had a branch in Amherst as well. I remember very well. I'm getting a little old and tired of running back and forth. So when did the Northampton Gallery open? In 79. Really? Yeah. I've been here a long time. And then the Amherst one was from when to when? Well actually, let's see. One of my dates. I think maybe Amherst opened in 79 in Northampton in 80 or 81. Oh, okay. But I am Amherst. Northampton, we just had a larger space. Sure. Beautiful space. Everyone should go over there. Yeah. We have three floors, 60 foot high ceilings. It's gorgeous. And represent a lot of wonderful nationally and internationally known artists. Both fine artists. Leonard Baskin was somebody who was very important to the gallery. Barry Moser, a dear friend was the first artist we ever took on. The photographer, Leonard Nimoy, who many of you know, my dearest friend, also wrote a children's book about Leonard called Fascinating. The Life of Leonard Nimoy. The other person who is probably most important in my Jewish education, Leonard came from a Yiddish speaking home and lived long and prosper. His hand signal of course is an ancient hebraic prayer. I didn't know that. Well, you'll have to read the book. It talks about it. Yeah, wow. But I also represent probably the major gallery in the country representing original children's book art and handle the original work of numerous children's book illustrators around the country. We often work very closely with the Erochoral Museum. If an artist comes into the area, we'll do a show at the same time. It helps everyone to get a broader range of the work. Sure. I think their first exhibit was Maurice Sendak, who blurbed one of my books and was somebody who we represented. And Jules Pfeiffer, we worked together with, Kadir Nelson, many, many people. And we continue that relationship. It's a very wonderful relationship and has really helped make the Pioneer Valley really the center of children's book illustration in the country. It's amazing how many people live here. How many of our wonderful artists. I'll start mentioning them, but then I'll leave somebody out. I know. But go to the website, Regalson.com. You'll see we just had a Mo Willems exhibit for people who know Elephant and Piggy and don't let the pigeon drive the bus. We'll have our 30th annual illustration exhibit this November. Okay. And the authors and illustrators from all over the country come in. It's just wonderful. Do you do any international work? Well, we curate a lot of exhibits around the world. I see. I was just with my wife in South Korea for a show we did in some museums there. They actually have a wonderful collector base of American children's books because that's how they learned to speak English. Sure. And yes, I've been fortunate to travel all over the world both with my own work and with the gallery. Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay. This is great. I'm so glad you came in. That's it. Did we breeze through? That was easy. We did. We did a lot. And I look forward to your talk at the Sammy's. Thank you. And Barry Mosher. It'll be short and sweet. My dear friend Barry Mosher is going to introduce me. Yeah, that's great. For people who don't know Barry's work, you should. Also, like myself, he does work for adults and work for children. He's run the gamut, his Penny Royale Caxton Bible, I think, which came out in 2000. It was the first fully illustrated Bible in a century. And he went from that to a picture book of three little pigs. Again. Quite a range. You know, it's a wide range. Yeah. And he's a wonderful speaker. That's great. Thanks, Rich. Thank you. Thanks a lot. And thank you all for coming. I hope to see everyone at the Sammy's. Come join us. Today. Thank you.