 Hey there, I'm Drew and you are definitely listening to the anxious truth. This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery. So if you're struggling with things like panic attacks panic disorder agoraphobia or health anxiety, this is the place for you. This week on the podcast, we're talking about one of those weird subtle nuanced parts of anxiety recovery, which is the difference between being afraid during a panic attack and being afraid of a panic attack, which sounds strange, but it matters. So let's get into it now. Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. I am Drew Linsalata, creator and host of this fine podcast, and this is episode number 250, 250. We are recording in March of 2023 in case you're listening in the future. If you are new to this podcast and you just stumbled in or you just sort of accidentally stumbled upon the YouTube channel, welcome. I hope you find this content helpful and I hope you stick around. If you're a returning listener or viewer, we'll welcome back. I'm always glad that you're here. Today, we're going to talk about one of those really weird subtle and nuanced parts of anxiety recovery. And that is that there is really a difference and an important difference between being afraid during a panic attack and being afraid of panic attacks, which at face value sounds like the same thing, but it's really not hear me out. But before we do, I'll give you the abbreviated version of this. Head on over to my website when you have a minute at the anxious truth.com because there are a ton of cool resources there. There are workshops and courses. There are three books that I've written about anxiety and anxiety recovery. There are 249 podcast episodes that are completely free before this one. And there's a link to all of my social media platforms. I produce the material to try to help. So I would urge you to pop on over there, take a look at it all and evaluate yourself of the resources. They're there to help and hopefully they will. And if you're digging this work and it's helping you in some way and you want to find a way to support it, all the ways you can do that can be found also on my website at the anxious truth.com slash support and financial support is always appreciated, but never required. However way you support this work, whether it's just listening to the podcast, writing a review on iTunes or liking a YouTube video. I appreciate you very much. Thank you very, very much for your support, your time and your attention. So let's get into today's topic and that is the difference between being afraid during a panic attack and being afraid of panic attacks. Because the way we define recovery, and by the way, if you are not struggling with panic attacks, this episode might not necessarily completely apply to you, but I promise to keep it as brief as I can. You might get something out of it anyway. If you are struggling with panic attacks or panic disorder, then this is definitely aimed directly at you. So being afraid during a panic attack and being afraid of panic attacks are actually two different things. Recovery from something like panic disorder, which was my own personal experience, has nothing to do with having a panic attack and not being afraid during that panic attack. Even completely recovered people like me are afraid during the panic attack. That's just baked in physiologically, psychologically to human beings. We call it a panic attack for a reason, panic fear. It's scary. So during a panic attack, even a completely recovered person will experience fear. That's normal. And if you are working really hard to try to not be afraid during a panic attack, you can stop doing that because it's never going to work. And I see far too many people in this community aiming to that. They hear me say that I don't care if I have panic attacks, which is true. I do not really care if I have a panic attack today, tomorrow, next week or ever again. I don't know, but that doesn't mean that I don't have moments of fear when I do experience a panic attack, which can happen once or twice a year, maybe randomly. Who knows? I really don't know. So why do I say that this matters? Well, number one, it matters because some people are pointing at an unrealistic goal. They think that somehow you should be able to have a panic attack and feel nothing. But if you felt nothing, then it wouldn't be a panic attack, would it? Like you will feel the symptoms. You will feel the sensations. You will have scary thoughts. You will experience fear. For me, what it looks like is during those initial moments, when I when I know that it's going to bubble over to panic and that can happen to me. Like I said, maybe once or twice a year, maybe. But it's inconsequential in the end. And we'll get to that. But there's always that moment of, uh-oh, there's still an uh-oh moment. I can have that moment. That's normal. I can't get rid of the uh-oh moment, the oh-no moment, the OMG moment. Like it exists because I am alive. I am human and I work like every other human being does. So it would be unrealistic for me to think that I could experience panic or that anybody could experience panic and not have that uh-oh moment. Yes, I can think for a second. Oh my God, what's about to happen? Uh-oh, what is this? Maybe it's not a panic attack. I can have all of those thoughts and I do. You know, the last time I had a panic attack was going back months and yeah, for a couple of seconds, I had those thoughts because that is normal. That is natural. That is to be expected. That is part and parcel of the process. I cannot get rid of that nor can you so you can stop trying. But the difference is that for me, once I recognize what's going on and I recognize those OMG thoughts and that interpret that catastrophic interpretation, I have enough experience with this and enough practice and enough of a skill set where I can just take out half a step backwards from that and put a little bit of air gap between me and those thoughts. So I can disengage with them, let them race, let them run their course and then I'm basically in a non-reactive mode, although still feeling afraid. There's no doubt about that. The fear doesn't last as long as it did when I was really struggling. That's true, but initially I am as afraid as you would be. So just get that clear. I think anybody in the world that experiences a panic attack has that sense of fear, especially in the beginning of the panic attack. So why do I say that there's a difference between being afraid during a panic attack and being afraid of panic attacks? Because being afraid during a panic attack is a universal experience. And if you checked out my panic attacks workshop, which you can certainly find on my website at the anxious truth.com, I went through in that workshop. I went through statistics on the number of people just in the United States alone who will experience at least one panic attack in the next 12 months. And it's a lot of people. We have a lot of people here. So if we go by the most generally accepted and vetted sources of statistics that tell us roughly 10 to 11% of the US population will experience a panic attack or more in 12 months. That is well over 27 million adults. There's a lot of people here, which means a lot of panic attacks. And every one of them, there will be a sensation of fear. That's just the way it is. It's a universal experience. But the difference is that of that large number of people, a very small percentage of them will develop panic disorder. Now it's still a large number of people just because we have a lot of people here in the US, but a very small number of them will develop a small percentage of them will develop panic disorder. Even though they will have a panic attack or multiple panic attacks, there are many people walking the earth right now that have multiple panic attacks. They happen to them once every few months, a couple of times a year, once every few weeks. There are people who have regular panic attacks who, for whatever reason, hate each one, but do not develop panic disorder, where they become completely focused on the attacks, worried about the next one, trying to avoid the next one, making their lives smaller and smaller, trying to never be triggered. They don't wind up there. But they do share the universal experience of, wow, it felt like impending doom, something terrible was going to happen. It felt dangerous. There was a threat. My heart was pounding. They have the same experience that you and I have. They just never developed that fear of the attack, only during the attack. And why it matters is because in recovery, we are aiming to lose the fear of a panic attack. And you might say, okay, Drew, you're eight and a half minutes into this, but I still don't understand the difference. The difference is I am simply unafraid of a panic attack, even though during the attack, I recognize that I will be afraid for some amount of time because the panic attack to me is a discrete event. It starts, it peaks, it comes down, it ends, it's over. There are no ramifications beyond that particular event. So therefore I can look at it as an unwanted situation, something that I don't want to happen. It's disruptive. It's annoying in the moment. It's frightening and rattling, but when it's over, it has no impact on my life. So therefore I do not have to be afraid of the next one. So what we're working toward in recovery is not somehow being able to magically panic without fear. It's to panic with fear, manage that fear differently, relate to that fear differently, react or don't react to that fear differently than you do now if you're stuck and learn that like when the event is over, it is over. And it was really unpleasant, certainly impactful, but not anything that you have to worry about going forward. If it happens again, I guess it'll happen again. If it doesn't happen again, it doesn't happen again. Now, admittedly, that as you're going through the recovery process, the first time you do that, you'll feel like a huge superhero, which is awesome. It's a really great feeling when you just drop all resistance and let it run its course and you discover that, oh my God, this dude was right. It actually ended faster that way. It doesn't mean that's the last panic attack you'll ever have. But when you begin to have those experiences piled on top of each other, strangely, paradoxically, when you stop trying to prevent them and you know that, like, I don't like this, but I'm capable of moving through it, they do start to happen less and less. So I always say, the elimination of the recurring panic attacks or the breaking of the panic cycle is not the primary goal in recovery, it's the happy secondary effect. So when you learn that you can be afraid during the event, but don't have to be afraid of the event, then things change and then they do begin to happen less and less. And then if a panic attack does pop up now and then, which can happen, some recovered people will have them sometimes. They are still 100% recovered. You can disagree with me if you want, but I've answered those questions a couple of times. I'll answer them sometimes when they come up, but I'm not going to debate that. Somebody who is not afraid of a panic attack anymore, even though we're afraid during the attack, can be justified in saying that they are fully recovered because their life no longer revolves around panic in any way, shape or form. If I'm going to take a trip to Los Angeles and get on a flight to take six hours across the United States, in no way, shape or form is the word panic or anxiety ever even entering into the dialogue either externally or in my own head when planning that trip or considering it. It's a non-factor. I consider panic and anxiety when buying my plane tickets, just as much as I consider, I don't know, white rhinos. They exist, but they aren't terribly impactful in my life. See that? I mean, it's a crazy, I'm not trying to dismiss anybody's problems. Believe me, I was you, but the difference is when you are not afraid of the attack because you've learned a new way to relate to the fear during the attack, then things begin to change. But you have to point in the right direction. Put yourself on a path that gives you a chance to succeed. Putting yourself on a path that somehow is supposed to mean you panic without being afraid during the panic is not realistic. And then you will get frustrated and you will think you're failing and then you will give up, which is a shame. You don't have to do that. You're just asking something of yourself that probably isn't possible. Now, I think operationally, if you asked, am I as afraid as I used to be? Probably in small moments, but I think I would say that those moments last much less than they used to. So the peak of my fear is probably as high as it always was, even in the days when I was struggling and not leaving my house and afraid of everything. I'm probably just as afraid, just that that level of fear is much, much shorter in duration now, but it still exists. Does it, it can it ever get to zero? I mean, we could probably make the argument that given the fact that I can have, say, an anxious day now and then, and it could start to bubble up, but then short circuit and never make it to panic. Well, that is because I'm not afraid of the attack. So since I'm not trying to stop it, I'm just going to let whatever happened happen that day. It doesn't come. So that could be, so you might argue, we'll see, you're not afraid. You're not afraid. Well, you're right, because I'm still not, I'm not afraid of the anxiety at a low level, at a medium level, at a rising level. I'm not afraid of it. I might feel uncomfortable. I just, I just understand I don't have to treat it like it's like it's dangerous. I don't have to treat it like it's an emergency. And that's what changes things. I'm not afraid of a panic attack possibly happening. I prefer it didn't, but I'm not afraid of it does. So I understand I'm not giving you a lot to go on in terms of like, here's step one, step two, do this, do that. It is, this isn't about that. This is sometimes about a framing about conceptualizing about how you approach these things. And I think it's important to look at recovery as the process of learning to not be afraid of panic. Not being unafraid in panic or during panic. And it might take you a while to get your brainer in that you might finish listening to this 15 minutes and say, I still don't get it, man. Like, you know, how could this not be the same thing? And I understand that when you are on the thick of it, and this all feels so incredibly important to you and so urgent and so dire and so impactful and so scary. It can be hard to tease these concepts apart. So it might be hard for you to see the get the clarity on this through that lens of the intense fear and urgency that you're looking through today. But I promise if you at least try to conceptualize it this way and give yourself a break. Oh, I'm allowed to be afraid during a panic attack. That's not the problem. The problem is that when it's over, I will continue to resist the next one before it even happens because I'm still afraid of it because I consider the fear I just experienced a real danger. If I at least start to make that change, I give myself a fighting chance of actually getting better and changing my life and getting the life back that I want. But aim at the right target and understand the concepts at least intellectually, even if emotionally, you have a really hard time buying into what I'm saying today. You might think afraid during panic, afraid of panic, same thing, man. This is just word salad and you're not helping me. I understand that. I really do. But if you think on it a little bit, especially in your more rational times, when you're not feeling super high levels of anxiety and panic, you may begin to see what I'm saying here. Aim, it's always aim at the right target. And we aim at the right target by allowing the fear during the panic and working on new ways to relate to that. It's not the it's not the sensation. It's not the thought. It's not the symptom. It's the relationships we form with those things that we work on changing in recovery. And that makes us less afraid of a panic attack, even though we're afraid during. So how's that for just a whole lot of words in 16 minutes and 15 seconds full of conceptualizing and framing and subtlety and nuance that doesn't have a lot of steps. It doesn't seem very programmatic or myth, you know, methodical here. I'm sorry I couldn't give you particular things to do. But sometimes you just need to sit and think about these things a little bit and try to reframe things just a little bit in this way to help sort of point you in the direction you want to go in. And that is it. That is a relatively short episode. Finally, have the anxious truth episode 250 in the books. You know, it's over because the music that is after glow by my friend, Ben Drake, who wrote that song inspired at least in part by this podcast several years ago and lets me use it in the podcast ever since. I'm eternally grateful for that because it's become kind of an identifying factor around here. And if you want to find Ben and his music, you can do that on his website at bendrakemusic.com go tell him that I said hello if you do that. And I will ask you a favor like I always do. If you're listening to the podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts or some platform that lets you rate or review the podcast, leave a five star rating or maybe take a second and write a little review. If you like the podcast, because that's how more people find us and more people get the help that hopefully they are looking for. And if you're watching on YouTube, which this week you're watching a still image and just listening. Thank you anyway. But like the video, subscribe to the channel, hit the notification bell so you know when I upload new episodes and leave a comment because at least twice a week I look through and answer YouTube comments. They're always good. And that is it. Hopefully you have found this helpful. I appreciate you spending your time with me again like you do most weeks. I hope I'm being useful to you. Keep going. Keep moving forward. Little tiny steps matter. I used to end the podcast with every step matters, no matter how small and I'll just remind you of that today. And I think I'm going to abandon my Mandalorian saying because no one cares about that anymore. I'm tired of saying it. So I will just say thank you again for listening and I will be back next week with another episode about, I don't know what, but I'll be here. I hope this has been helpful. See you next week. You're right or wrong.