 Thank you. This is the Friday, May 6 meeting of the elementary school building committee. And the first thing I need to do is call the meeting to order. We do have a quorum and a recording has been started. We're going to be sure we double check each time. Do we do our sound check? So we are being recorded. And so I'm just going to call out the names of the committee members. One person Phoebe has emailed me that she won't be here this morning, but we'll record as people join. If they're not in this first call, it will record whether they were present or absent. And I'm calling out to make sure you can hear and be heard Paul. Present. Mike. Present. Jonathan. Morning. Sean. Present. Rupert. Yes, I'm here. Tammy. Present. Morning, Ben. Welcome, everyone. I'm going to turn the meeting over at this point to Margaret who will. I'm going to turn it over to Margaret. I'm going to turn it over to Margaret. I'm going to turn it over to Margaret today. It is a packed agenda. And then. She will be leading into Donna. As we have guests with us this morning, consultants who have done the traffic study. So Donna will be introducing. The other people you see on the screen. Margaret. It's all yours. Okay, everybody. Hopefully you can see this. So. Just quickly. I'm going to make a couple of introductory comments. I'm going to turn it over to Margaret. I'm going to turn it over to Margaret. I'm going to turn it over to Donna. We're the main point of discussion as Kathy just noted, as the traffic study. Donna and her team are going to talk some more about. Teacher feedback that we've received this week. And we're going to talk a little bit about the cost, estimating process and timeline. Kathy is hoping because we've bumped it a couple of times to talk about the cost of estimating. The cost of estimating. The cost of estimating. The one invoice to review, which I emailed you last night, which is Dennis goes invoice, which was just received yesterday, but I thought we should. Take it up. And then just to recap going forward. We have scheduled right now. A meeting for a week from today that is not a presentation, just a discussion. But we're going to talk a little bit about the cost of estimating. And we'll talk in more detail about that process today. Then on the 20th. We're going to have a regular meeting with public comment. That is going to be focused on. Looking at the estimating materials and providing any comments that need to get folded in. To the estimate. Then we have. We're going to be moving towards the decision. There's a final community forum on June 9th for this. For the preferred schematic report period. And then June 17th meeting was scheduled. We need to reschedule that because it is the last day of school for some of our committee members who will be very tied up. And then a regular meeting on the 24th, which is the vote to submit this document to the MSBA. And then we're going to have a regular meeting on the 24th. And then we're going to have a regular meeting on the 24th, which is that. Let me just make a couple of comments. I know it's up here. Margaret, I just want to acknowledge that Angelica has joined us and Angelica. Just if you could let us know what you can see here and. Be heard. Yes, I can hear. Thank you. Good morning. And Allison. And Allison is with us also. Hi, Allison. Thank you. My name is Allison. My name is Allison. And her team will talk more about this, but. Obviously the cost of these projects, these options is kind of a big deal. The on our meeting on the 20th. You know, we'll have a chance to delve into them. It's quite a bit of material to look at, but I want to reassure everyone that. It's about a two week estimating process. There will be an opportunity. I don't want anyone to think. That because they haven't looked at the materials before they've gone to the estimator that the any comments or questions that come up from the committee will not be able to be acknowledged and if appropriate folded in. So that's one thing to note. One thing I wanted to mention is that we Kathy and I have been working on how best to accommodate comments that are being made written comments we're receiving and I don't know if you had a chance to look but what we decided to do is figure out how to pull this up. We actually put responses to collecting the comments at the end of the meeting minutes, and we're putting responses in red, we're taking those questions and answers off, and folding them into a separate document that will be in the meeting packet each month so I'm not going to pull that up because I want to make sure we can get on to the other things. When we get to the matrix I just want to note that. Denisco has been able to update the buildable usable area which was a question that came up in an earlier meeting. And then also, just because there isn't enough going on at one time we did receive the MSBA comments, just before the last meeting and Denisco has worked mightily to respond to a lot of very detailed comments, and those were shared with you I think yesterday and are posted in the packet. I don't believe there's anything that you need to respond to, but perhaps just to be aware, as I noted in my cover note, you know that they're fairly typical the level of detail that there won't be any further back and forth until we get received comments on the next set of documents. So I think that was all I wanted to say before I turn it over to Donna and her team to talk about traffic. And Margaret just for your record I also want to make sure Alicia Walker has joined us Alicia can you hear us. And if you could just acknowledge and say, you're here. Alicia's Sharon mute. I think she'll, we'll check with her later but she's, she has logged on Margaret. Okay, I got it. Okay Donna. Good morning. With us this morning, we have to guess we have Tim Thompson from power engineering and David Loring from power engineering and there are traffic consultants. So, they were also present last night so for those that maybe watched the presentation last night. You're going to hear the same but hopefully this will also allow us an opportunity for a little more dialogue. So I'm going to just get right into it based on the agenda that was issue. I have a little screen today. So, talk just from from our perspective talking about the topic study, the conversation about two versus three story building, and then the cost estimating process which I think Margaret pretty much covered but we maybe have a little more conversation about that. So I am just going to turn this over to Tim. Thanks Donna. Yeah, and so I guess I just would like to say, maybe it maybe it makes sense, Tim, after each site that we pause and let folks ask the questions as it pertains to each site that might make the most sense today. Sure, make sense. Well good morning everyone. Again, my name is Tim Thompson with Park Corporation. We have completed our traffic study for the two sites. So this morning I'd just like to give an overview of the results of our study and some potential mitigation options we're looking into at each site. So, just to start off, a quick review of the existing conditions at each site for the Fort River site that you see here. This site operates with two loops for pickup and drop off the bus loop that's shown in yellow on the right side operates independently from the parent loops which are denoted in blue. The parent loops also have two locations where students are picked up and dropped off so it's separated with younger students being loaded and unloaded separately. So, this system works fairly well, it works pretty efficiently. A lot of that is due to the fact that the buses and parents are separated and there are those two parent loading locations, but also due to the heavy staff presence on site. And that's not something that's unique to Fort River or elementary schools in general, we usually see especially with younger students that there is a large staff presence on site to help with those drop off and pick up operations. At Wildwood, it's actually a fairly similar operation with the bus loop being separate from the parent loop and again there's two locations for parents to load and unload again separated by grades. Again, this site works fairly well and efficiently and safely. I know that there's actually at both sites there's been some modifications to the site operations with COVID and the increase in parent drop off traffic that the schools have seen. But again here, there's a heavy staff presence that helps with that loading and unloading operation. So, for our traffic study. We, we project our conditions out into the future and we actually we look at seven years it's a mass DOT standard to look out that far. And I just wanted to highlight that, you know, looking out into the future. We do acknowledge that there are other potential developments going on in town. And when we look in our study area, and we project traffic conditions out in the future we do account for background growth beyond that just associated with with the school work. So you can see on the right, all of the study intersections that were included in our traffic study. So, you know, the, the total study area, you know, encompasses both the Fort River and the Wildwood site. It's a rather large study area, given the extent of, of this, this work here. And basically we're looking at, you know, two scenarios one with student population increasing at the Wildwood site and then a second scenario where it's increasing at the Fort River site. And we used to help us determine how traffic would be rerouted through the study area was the school district maps for each of these elementary schools, and then also we took a look at housing distribution throughout those district areas and assigned to and from each school based on that assessment. So when we complete a traffic study the the most critical piece of it is what we call a capacity analysis. And that's where we're looking at each intersection within our study area individually. And we are assessing the specific impacts associated with additional traffic at those intersections and how that compares to a situation where, again, we're looking in the future with some of this background growth. And specifically adding the traffic associated with the with the school project. So, when we perform a capacity analysis we, we look at what we call a level of service, and a level of service is it's a rating system that we assign to each intersection. You can see it's a rating system that goes from a through F, and it is determined by the amount of delay that each vehicle experience is going through the intersection. So it's an average amount of delay in seconds per vehicle. So you can see that there's a in this table there's a difference between an intersection that's signalized versus unsignalized. So, again, that's broken up as you can see here by the amount of delay that a vehicle experience is traveling through the intersection. So, I know that there's a lot of information shown in this table here so I'll try to give you just the highlights from these next few tables. And what we really wanted to show by showing this whole table is really the level of detail that we get into with the traffic study so you can see that. Along the left we actually look at each intersection, but not only the intersection as a whole but by each movement for each approach to the intersection. So, the first few tables here are going to highlight some of the intersections that experience the greatest impact from the project and as would be expected they're the intersections that are closest to each of the sites. So the first few that I'll talk about are a couple intersections that are close to the Fort River site. The first intersection here is Main Street with Northeast Street and Southeast Street. This is specifically looking at the morning peak hour. So they're in the school arrival period and typically when we look at schools we look at the morning arrival period and then the afternoon dismissal period. The morning arrival period is generally the worst of the two conditions, given that that peak period tends to overlap with general commuting traffic to which which we see is, you know, hi during the morning as folks are heading to work. So what I just want to highlight here, if you look over to the top right you'll see for the condition of with the build at Fort River. So you can see a couple of level of service apps with high delay associated particularly with the northbound approach to that signalized intersection. Next slide. This table here we're looking at the afternoon dismissal peak period. If you look at that same location in the in the table, you can see we're we're looking at season D's as opposed to apps. So as I mentioned, traffic conditions generally during the dismissal period are a little lighter, since it's not overlapping with a typical commuter peak. Another intersection that's that's close to the Fort River site that we looked at was the Southeast Street and College Street intersection. You can you can see here during the morning peak. We do experience a number of ease and these along the right side under the build condition. And really if you compare that to the future no build condition, which again does not include the school traffic. This is really what what we're looking at when we're making comparisons to determine traffic impacts that no build scenario versus the build scenario. And you can see that there's really only a slight increase in delay, pretty much across the board with a with a few seconds so less of an impact that this signalized intersection than the one to the north. Conditions at that same signal with college at College Street during the school dismissal period. Very similar results we're seeing season D's but again, just a moderate increase in in delay per for each movement here. So, again, a smaller impact than compared to the intersection to the north. Then looking at the, the driveways to the school itself under the condition where there's the build that at Fort River. You can see in the bottom right of the table we're seeing level of service f's for the at the school driveway. This is the condition that we looked at for the Fort River build was actually allowing movements out of the southern driveway. So existing circulation pattern at Fort River allows only entry movements at the southern driveway and exit movements for both lefts and rights at the northern driveway. And as a way to help us reduce the impact that that signalized intersection just to the north of the site has on the driveway where that northbound queue spills back past the intersection can cause some some some conflicts. We wanted to eliminate the safety concern associated with left turn movements out of that by moving those left turns to the the southern site driveway. So, again, you can see that during this morning peak hour again when traffic conditions are higher we are seeing a level of service f at the at the site driveway. Same intersection for the school dismissal period you can see that that is at an E. Again, this is really associated more with the the general amount of traffic that's on E street. Just given that it's a doesn't coincide with a typical commuter peak. Looking at the the other Fort River driveway, you can see what this is the driveway where we were allowing only right turns from the site. Much better level of service lower delay under both the morning and the school peak hours. So, given some of the locations that we've seen where the addition of school traffic, we're expecting to have an impact on adjacent intersections and the school driveways themselves we've, we've looked at a couple of mitigation alternatives to help improve traffic conditions at at at these spots where we we see congestion. So, this diagram here on the right shows potential improvements at the main street. Southeast Street signalized intersection. So what we're showing here is some intersection widening to allow some more stacking space at the intersections, given that where we would be anticipating more more traffic at this intersection, the widening of the intersection and the extension of the turn lanes would provide additional room for vehicles to wait at the signal. We'd also be looking at replacing that traffic signal equipment. One it's it's it's a slightly older traffic signal equipment and to there are some signal timing and phasing improvements that we'd want to make associated with this intersection as well. So, right now that's that's one option at this intersection that we're looking at for improvements. So you can see here in the table, the two columns to the right show conditions with the potential intersection improvements at Main Street and in East. So you can see that those those apps that are shown for the northbound approach, improved to ease and ease with with the intersection improvements. So maybe we stop here Kathy that works and see if anyone has any questions for the Port River site. Jonathan. Good morning. It has mostly to do with what. So this is a well known knock off traffic in town, you know, especially for any of the parents like myself who have kids at Fort River. None of this is really surprising. And it wouldn't surprise me that that you know it gets worse with more students or that there are ways to improve it. This is much for the for maybe for Paul or others in the town about whether other improvements have been studied to this in the past or there are other things that are happening in parallel with this. And then somewhat related to that. The second question, how much of this becomes project costs versus other town costs when once we start getting past the street or past the property line I should say. Thank you. Oh, do you want to respond to that at all. Yeah, I mean, I think any kind of improvements we would want to factor in and where the funds come from is a different is a different question. I think I might as head of distraction so I didn't hear the beginning of your question, Jonathan, I'm sorry. I'm curious as to whether or not, you know, as the DPW looked at these two intersections in the past other other things that have been thought about that have, you know, haven't moved forward for whatever reason. The way of improvements in this area because everyone kind of knows this is an authority not first thing in the morning particularly. Yeah. So the intersection with College Street is just a mess it's designed poorly. We are making sidewalk improvements there but nothing we don't have funds to do a major improvement in the intersection. We have looked at it around about on the main street intersection. I think, you know, I wanted about that. Yeah, I think the engineers have met with the DPW so they probably are aware of what what they've considered. Okay. Thank you. Margaret. So Jonathan I'll answer the part of the question about funding so the MSBA won't fund anything that's outside of the site and they typically won't fund traffic improvements because they think and it's hard to disagree with them that it's a town piece you know with this project in general and Jonathan mentioned this before I believe there's the MSBA does not limit the amount of money you spend on the site but they would cap the reimbursement for what is on the site at 8% of construction. But the things that we're going to be looking at today in terms of mitigation I would say at once they're outside of the site or totally outside of it now that being said, these mitigation measures are going to be estimated. They're going to be part of your consideration of the sort of potential overall project costs, but I, my presumption is if they were undertaken they would be undertaken by the town and probably outside of the project. You know, I was just going to add a little bit, as, as Paul said, this has come up before and it's come up particularly with the belcher town development, the affordable that is now not just an idea but it's moving forward. And everyone identified these intersections as needing some work with out any. What are we going to do about it yet so it's been on the town's radar screen for both pedestrian bike and car that if we're bringing in more people in housing in this area. We're going to think about how people bike and car flows work outside to I had a question on the onsite with the, the, the, the, it looks like one issue is there's an issue of getting into the school in the morning and then leaving the school there's a that delay. The amount of space that the Fort Riverside has. Is it enough to allow the queue that is happening with that. It looked like it's as much as a three minute or more weight to get to leave. Tim, I, you know, I was just, you know, I was just trying to get a sense of what happens to people when they can't leave right away. We're actually, we don't have a mitigation concept shown at the, at the site driveways but it is something that we're looking into to help alleviate that. You know, I know then the tables we were showing some level of service f's for the exiting movements from the, from the site and and that we're continued to continuing to assess. So we're trying to, you know, improve, improve a condition there where we where we aren't seeing backups into the school. Yeah, so, so Kathy just to add to that, we're looking at, as Tim was saying, making sure that we maintain separation of cars and buses for any option that we increase the queuing on site to alleviate, you know, it's spilling on to the street. So as, and again, you know, the parking lots that we've identified and the, I guess, the circulation on the site will continue to be refined as we, as we move forward with a preferred solution. But I also just want to mention to everyone that we had a great conversation with Guilford and Jason earlier this week, and they to, you know, we went through, they agree with the, all of the data that's been presented everyone understands it's a challenge in town we talked about other other possibilities for mitigation at the intersection. We did study roundabout here, and there's just added challenges with that, because of the properties that are associated with it but we're also we can continue to study that if that's the preferred solution there. And they do recognize the other thing is as far as growth out of all of the developments that are in the work so to speak, there's only one development that has, or is at the phase where they've actually brought forth kind of a traffic study Tim is that accurate. That is true. So a number of those studies that were listed up up front and my presentation, where, yeah, as Donna mentioned, they they're early on in their design stages. Alison, see Alison and Rupert Tander up. Alison. Yeah, I apologize if this is asking you to repeat something. I'm trying to make sure I understand in terms of funding. Since this has been an issue in the past, and it sounds like improvements need to be made. This is part of the building's problem like is this something that our budgets have to cover if it is a part of our budgets at the end must be a covering this kind of stuff are they contributing to it. I just want to understand how it fits in terms of categories in terms of budgets. Margaret, you need to unmute. Sorry about that. Alison, the MSBA would not reimburse on improvements that are outside of the project site. And it is, you know, a question for the town. I guess the way I would think about this is that the town can decide to spend money on these things. We certainly want to and we want to and we will include the costs as part of the estimates, but they will be identified as being an additional cost that would need to be funded by the town outside of the base building cost. So the MSBA won't look at this or opine on this it's completely the town's decision, whether to go ahead with the mitigate these possible changes on either site and to fund them. But the way to think about this would be, it's an option, and the important data to grasp is both what what the functioning would be like, if no intervention was done, or with the intervention and you have to really kind of think about both, because the intervention is a sort of a separate project essentially. Does that make does that answer your question. I think so and in terms of the types of site work that me or not site work with the traffic work that needs to be done to either Fort River or Wildwood. It seems like the costs associated specifically with the school for Fort River need to be documented separate from the improvements that are what the town needs to do anyway because I think that could make the Fort River site be inflated. When there are problems with that area anyway, so I just want to be clear about exactly. I mean the town can choose to fold them into the contracting of the project, but you know you should think about it as the bank is not going to help with that costs, or it may treat it as a separate project. And just for everyone's benefit we are going to have separate line items in the cost estimates for the improvements off site. We will include them as part of the cost estimate but we're not going to fold it into the overall project costs will just have those as separate line items. Rupert. Thank you. As I'm sure you guys are aware. The custodial staff also goes off site to help direct traffic and keep pedestrians safe at both sites. I know at Fort River. Once the pedestrians have successfully crossed they sometimes intercede with traffic down at the exit to exit from Fort River to let the buses out. I'm curious whether changes to the timing and phasing in the in the signalizing would have any impact on that or do you see us continuing to need to have a human intervention out there. Thank you. Well the the signal at at Main Street it currently has a what we call an exclusive pedestrian phase so all traffic stops when the pedestrian signal is illuminated. And yes the custodial staff out there just ensures that students are waiting properly and abiding by the rules of the signal to make those movements. So with the phasing improvements that we would look at including as part of that signal reconstruction. We'd likely have an exclusive pedestrian phase there as well operating in a similar manner. And you know there could be some geometric improvements at that intersection to help shorten crossing distance and generally make it safer for pedestrians. But if the, you know, given what we've seen with the how the custodial staff operates operates out there, it may still be beneficial to have them out there just to ensure that students are abiding by the, you know, the rules of crossing the intersection. And if I could just add the existing equipment doesn't allow for right it's it's old. So it doesn't, you can't make certain adjustments based on the existing equipment. So one of the, one of the things that we're looking at is allowing some protected left turn movements, particularly for the northbound left and that would involve equipment replacement to be able to add that movement in Alicia. So I'm wondering the northbound on southeast shows us for both Wildwood and for the Fort River build. And so I'm wondering why the impact for Wildwood on slides 12 and 13 are listed as an a. And I'm wondering if that implies that there might be mitigation needed for both the Wildwood and Fort River built. Donna, could you go back to that table. So, is this the table. Yes. Yeah, that's one. So yeah, you do see an increase in delay for that northbound left. And that's really a result of parent traffic that's currently going to Fort River. There's a portion of that traffic that originates at the southeast portion of town. And currently that traffic would go to the school drop off their, their child, and then likely distribute south of the school so they wouldn't be actually traversing through the main street signal. And under the condition where everybody's at at Wildwood, that portion of traffic is going to have to go through that signal to make it up to the Wildwood site. So, there is a increase in traffic at that intersection under both scenarios. So I hope that clears that up. Yeah. Sorry, thank you. I was thinking so, but I just wanted to clarify because the families that live southwest of Fort River will still need to travel the same route regardless of which site is chosen. Correct. There'll still be a portion that has to traverse through intersections that it is today. Thank you. So what we can I guess that I think that was the question. If you have students, you know, south of Fort River and the new school is at Wildwood. All right, you're saying that they have to go through this intersection to get over to Wildwood. So, regardless of the solution. Okay. So, we Kathy, I guess, we'll just keep going. Bring up. Is this the slide 10. I think so. Yeah. Sorry, I was muted there. So, again, at Wildwood, we again see the greatest amount of impacts associated with intersections that are closest to the school, as we would expect. The results that we're showing here are East Pleasant Street and Strong Street. And again, we're looking at that morning peak hour and then the school dismissal hour. So this intersection you'll see here under the the Wildwood build condition, which is the column second from the right. During the morning, that intersection, the westbound movement, which is the stop controlled movement moves from a C to a D. And then in the afternoon, we see that that moves from a C to an F. So this one makes a little bit more sense compared to the Fort River site because we're having more traffic exiting the site in the afternoon with a, you know, combination of parent traffic and then school staff that might be leaving just after parent traffic as well. And then looking at the the Wildwood driveway on Strong Street. During the the morning peak at northbound movement, which is currently stopped controlled would be a level of service C. And then in the afternoon, we would be looking at a level of service B. So, a mitigation alternative that we've been investigating at the Wildwood driveway site is the conversion of that stop control that comes. You reach as you're exiting the site driveway converting that intersection from that stop control to to a roundabout. And you can see a concept of what that roundabout might look like on the right side there. One of the advantages, well, a couple of the advantages of a roundabout at this location. One is it would help traffic exiting the site. And as you'll see in the next slide, the level of service improves under this condition. But roundabouts also have a benefit of reducing vehicle speeds. And we know that speeds along Strong Street have been brought up as a, as a concern, and, you know, really with the placement of this roundabout and the traffic calming effects with it right in front of the school. You know, we see as a safety improvement as well as a opportunity to alleviate congestion exiting the site. And I should also note that we don't have we aren't showing a diagram but we're also looking at improvements at the the Strong Street Pleasant Street intersection as well so we're considering adding turn lanes at that intersection or we're even looking into seeing if signalization of that intersection may be warranted. So, we recognize that that, you know, is is a could be an issue with the the build at Wildwood and we're trying to come up with alternatives to address that. So I would also just like to add that this roundabout, while it will improve, you know, kind of the speed and safety, it won't change the level of service at the intersection or coming out of the driveway. And then we did also to maybe talk a little bit about at one point in this go was saying maybe we could get another secondary means of access or egress off the site. And when we started looking at Strong Street coming down the steep slope maybe maybe you want to talk to that. Yeah, so, as Donna mentioned, there have been discussions about what a second driveway to to and from the site might look like and looking towards the east side of the of the site. There's of course, great challenges there that would have to be overcome. You know, there's there's quite a great differential between where that parking lot lies now and then Strong Street itself. And there's also some curvature in Strong Street to the the east and both vertical curvature and horizontal placement of trees that type of thing that might limit the site distance available from that driveway so it might. We might be limited with where exactly how far east that driveway could go to to allow for proper sight lines exiting the site. And I think what we were hearing is that the issue that probably wouldn't alleviate a lot of the congestion anyway, and part of it is, because a lot of people actually go out to East Pleasant Street so is that accurate. So if we were looking at a scenario that had the second driveway we would probably look at having one of those driveways be entry only and the other be exit only, and just to simplify circulation on the site. So we would still have the majority if not all traffic exiting from from one location. So Donna's right we would still experience, you know, a level of congestion exiting the site. Tim, didn't we also talk a little bit about the speeds reached by westbound traffic on strong and maybe some other traffic coming east of the driveway might help. I mean traffic coming along this stretch of strong street could certainly be, you know, considered, whether that's additional signing or some geometric improvements to help slow traffic. David, I'm not sure if you have anything to add to that effect with some conversations with DPW as well. David learning from power corporation as well. We had talked a little bit with DBW but the traffic coming concerns or more to the, yeah, to the east with the horizontal vertical site distance restrictions that we just spoke of. As you approach putting in the roundabout there that would tend to slow traffic as they approach the school zone and that turning movement. So, the roundabout becomes really a traffic coming element in of itself. You know, from westerly coming out of the roundabout as you approach Pleasant Street. That's such a fairly short distance we didn't really have the speed concerns, especially with a roundabout in place interrupt that speed along strong street as they had westbound. Thank you. I have a couple questions of on other kinds of. This is from not knowing much about this. But if you didn't have a roundabout but you had speed bumps. I'm seeing down by UMass, the speed bumps they have as you circle around them they slow you down a lot. You, you, you're warned that a speed bump is coming, and you, and you go too fast over that your peril. A question because the roundabout is both expensive and it looks like it's a little tricky. And, you know, I want to make sure Rupert speaks up about sight lines on this. So, so that's a question, and, and I don't know what staff currently does, can we stop traffic, can there be something just because it seems to be mainly when people are leaving at the end of the day. So just trying to think of, there's the flow off issue as well, and then over on the East pleasant and strong intersection. If there were a light there could the light be set up so it's only working when it's time for school to be you know school morning hours school evening hours you know so that the rest of the time it's a blinking orange, because that the the thing about that street that I've observed is, you're going down if you're going downtown, you're coming down a slight hill you're going toward a traffic circle but people ignore the speed limit on that road completely. So, come into the traffic circle too fast, even though it you know and if we, if the town changed the speed limit for example way up further north to 25 miles an hour, rather than its current speed limit and just slowed the traffic down so you know, again I'm looking at with with more flow added at that some, are there other things that aren't as expensive as around about or a major signalization. Thanks Kathy. So, to address the first item you had about traffic calming and what you've seen that you mass with the race speed tables. When we look at traffic calming along an area we have a number of different tools at our disposal, and each of those tools has a different impact on speed, but it also has an impact on other items as well so we really, we really try to use the user tool to make sure that it's going to satisfy the needs of a particular area to the best of our ability. So a raised speed table is at the higher end of our toolkit as it relates to reducing speeds so it's very effective at reducing speeds. Generally placing a speed table on a roadway like strong street could come could result in some other impacts that would have to be assessed as well speed tables can impact drainage patterns. They can also impact emergency vehicles. So, we want to be careful when we're selecting our traffic calming measure that we are not creating a situation where it's causing hazards in other ways. I would clarify just the difference between a speed bump and a speed table because people often get confused with the two. A speed table generally allows traffic flow perhaps up to 20 miles an hour. There could be a wide flat surface with gentle approach slopes on each side whereas the speed bumps which commonly see more associated with a commercial type parking lot that are rough abrupt vertical changes along the vehicle path so the speed tables perhaps could be another tool to be complemented with a roundabout so that it improves pedestrian passage, as well as slowing the vehicles down. I think the UMass ones their tables that what you just described is what they are there their rises they're not a, you know, jarring clump as you and I think the snow plows over them really easily. Yeah, sadly by sadly by owns college is an example of a speed table. I'd say Rupert, Sean and Tammy. Thank you. Yeah, just two points. One is, I have the impression that the rotary up at the driveway entrance actually does improve our exit times from the school it just doesn't affect the exit times from strong street on the East Pleasant is that correct. So the the roundabout at the driveway, it, it would improve delay exiting the school but it would also increase delay along strong street. So when you're looking at the the intersection overall. That's where you don't necessarily see the improvement in level of service if you will. It does help the driveway but at the cost of some delay on strong street, and that the roundabout at the driveway would would not have any impact on the the Pleasant street. Strong intersection. John. Yeah, you may have said this already is there like a typical score for a school. I know the goals probably to get a's across the board but I guess what do you see at most schools and what is sort of, you know, if we can achieve a's either these sites as or, you know, typical target that most schools try to achieve. Yeah, Sean that's a that's a good question and there's it. Generally no there's not a there's not a rating or a level of service that we're necessarily trying to achieve in quite frankly a's across the board. Generally, it depends on the intersection the amount of traffic that the intersection is is handling. You know, in an intersection where you're really handling a lot of traffic volumes to get a level of service a you really have to over construct a location. It come at a great expense. That type of thing. So, to answer your question it kind of depends. And it's, it can be relative to when we're interpreting level of service, you know, a very urban area we might interpret different than a more rural area. Again, it has to do with the amount of traffic volumes that an area is seeing in general. So, you know what you might see in, you know, downtown Springfield might be different from what you and the way you interpret it in Amherst. Okay, thank you. And while I completely understand the traffic study deals with motor vehicles, because that's sort of like the greatest amount of traffic I am concerned about and I don't know if there's any thought to pedestrian traffic and students that walk in red bikes, we do have a percentage of students that will walk in red bikes and they don't know if there's a grading system for that because they do think that that should be made really clear for both sites around that and I don't know if that's something that is addressed in this. Yeah, that's, that's a great point and this was something that was brought up in last night's discussion as well. The traffic study, given the scope of the area that we were looking at. And, you know, given that the majority of students at both of these schools are driven to school whether that be by parents or by buses. So that was the primary focus of our study. I think when we look at pedestrian bicycle connectivity. It's at a little bit of a smaller scale, seeing that it's, you know, not trips that are happening across town it's more localized to the areas right around the school. So, as we look at the, the adequacy and improvement of head and bike facilities it's at a smaller scale more targeted towards the site in the area immediately surrounding the site so for instance at, you know, at Wildwood. If the improvements with the roundabout were to be implemented at that driveway, providing adequate bike and pet connections as part of that improvement would certainly be something that is implemented. I'm just looking to see if there are any other hands up. You know, what might be helpful, Donna. Not, not immediately is that, you know, a sense of I tried to walk around the Wildwood area and I did a little bit down at Fort River of a sense of where the walking paths are and where the sidewalks are, you know, different crosswalks just, just a similar kind of you know, if, if people were to walk. How can they walk and how can they buy because one of the interest Wildwood has got a lot of other kinds of pathways that aren't necessarily along the street that allow people to come in. And so does Fort River it's got this back really long trail. I just have no idea how many people bike or walk it, but you didn't necessarily have to be on the street, but depending on where you're coming from, you might have to be on the street to cross an intersection. I think, I think, I think it was Mike Morris who talked about how the students actually do walk to the school and I don't want to paraphrase Mike but maybe you could give your personal opinion. Sure. Yeah, I'll just do brief that at Wildwood there's a number of different residential I don't know if you can bring back the map of Wildwood it might be helpful to talk through with the map up there. But if not, I can try to do it. There's a number of residential neighborhoods that are sort of behind Wildwood. And so historically, there's been a significant number of walkers from, you know, you're not going to receive. There we go. There's Wildwood. So if you look at where Hills Road is sort of in white. So the neighborhoods behind Wildwood. There's a number of there's a long history of students walking there the other neighborhoods are sort of near the regional middle school so every morning. You'll see students walking through the middle school complex past the tennis courts up to get to Wildwood. Because it's there. There's a number of residential neighborhoods that are in there so it sort of does come from all sides but primarily the streets behind Wildwood, and then further out from middle school walking through so those are the typical paths that we see students on if you drive by in the morning you'll see students in the sidewalk up strong street, pretty decent hill but good exercise for folks in the morning to get there and you'll often see a number of students and families coming when we had more extensive groups to school programs which we're trying to resurrect. We tried to think about where students were coming from multiple angles. We historically have had an event where folks got together in the north. Yeah, I think the north end of downtown and had a group walk to school day with families and students and it was a huge success and we had many many participants in that so I think it's as a site it's very prime for walkability. It's because of a number of residential residences that are in walking distance to school and, you know, I think to be clear from a traffic perspective they don't all come from one, one at one angle, or one direction it really because it's sort of surrounded by residential streets not I don't hear as much coming from the other side of strong street to the north. I mean I think there are some but less so but certainly on the other side of strong street coming from multiple angles and directions. So Rupert Tandis up and Alicia to Rupert first. Thank you I just wanted to point out from a school bus transportation perspective. Normally we look at what the walk zone is for any school building, so that we don't necessarily have to provide transportation if you're in the walk zone. The safety of the intersections that students have to cross can conflict with that walk zone forcing. You know I have your transportation load for the school buses, particularly for example crossing your nine is problematic so those folks might be close enough to walk to school but because of the dangers in the intersection. It has an impact on transportation. Alicia. Thank you. I just wanted to point out similarly to to what Mike was talking about with Wildwood that there are also a lot of families within walking distance from Fort River. And I think that that will also to keep in mind that they're building the new affordable housing complex right across the street from Fort River right now and there's also colonial village and Watson farms and a lot of apartment buildings where families live very close to Fort River as well. So any other questions on traffic study and this study, when we when we posted it and posted it and sent it out. There was a note on it that it's a draft. And it's drafted in some of the wording but also this possible mitigation is being worked through. I even the widening of the street as at the lead when you leave Fort River is a question of can can you do it or not to get a second lane in so some of these are potentials rather than. We've come up with so I know Donna Donna was sort of reluctant at one point to post it because it was still a draft in progress but so I think that we'll see it more polished up but we may not have answers to some of these. Gilford Gilford has noted we've got an intersection up here. Amherst has a bunch of intersections that are F's or D's with or without a school. So it and it's where the roads come together. But we're horse paths at one point and not really very good for where cars are coming together. So, so I is if there are no other questions on this, I think we'll move to the next part. Donna. Maybe we should all go back to horses or bikes. So, you know, we, in recent conversations, just talking about the two options or the three options renovation edition. New school is it going to be a two story or a three story school so in a way we're sort of looking at this as possibly kind of three concepts so to speak. We just wanted to talk a little bit more about it we thought instead of going through all the options if this would just be an easier way to kind of look at the options, the impacts that the layout of the school would have on the sites, so that it's it's a little easier to see kind of a side by side comparison. As it relates to community outreach and staff outreach. We had another meeting with staff yesterday to get their input, not so much where it sits on the site or the impacts the building has or which site, although folks opined on that. It was more so from an educational perspective, which layout works best from an educational student centered design. And I think there were mics on the call Margaret I Kathy, I don't remember honestly Kathy, I'm sorry you weren't I don't think you were. Yeah, Allison was there. So, I think there were like 24 or 34 folks that were on the call. Some of that was us but we have questions people ask questions which was very helpful trying to understand the layouts a little more. So two folks did state that they preferred a three story option. It's kind of option one here. They did prefer that actually this is where I updated this but anyway concept one was preferred to people said that and no one else really gave an opinion one way or another for any of the concepts. So, Mike, I don't know if you want to talk through what we want to what our ideas to move forward. Yeah, I mean I'll I'll just share my opinion, you know, I think Donna's right we had a lot of staff in the call we, Donna did a really my opinion nice job and her team of the advantages disadvantages of sites. We're going to gather more feedback we're going to share a video the presentation slides are both to gather more feedback from staff but you know for me having kind of there's multiple factors that we in on this. One is that, you know, from our designers and experts that there's a cost savings to go into three stories and a positive environmental impact of that. So those two things matter to me because money we're spending one place it means we're not spending it somewhere else right there's. The environmental impact obviously it's important to me I'm not on the net zero committee but but I understand that this promotes, promotes those goals you can do net zero either way but you know, take those words seriously that I hear from people more knowledgeable than me in that regard from an educational point of view to meet with the specialized program staff which I think is worth noting Donna as well that that work in our three specialized programs looked at different models. Alison, Tammy myself and Joanne Smith, one of our specialized administrators went to school in Springfield that was three stories and what I shared yesterday I'll share today is. I really liked having two grade levels per floor that made sense to me it was incredibly quiet in the hallways of school built for 400 that had 480 students in it. And it was much quieter than any of our one single story hallways are over the course of the day, just because of the nature of how things have, you know, go vertically they're spending less time walking through hallways more term learning which is, you know, right I'm an educator that's my goal is around student learning so you know I think fitting on the site whatever side it is, you know the smaller footprint makes a difference. And, you know, more green space, whether it's for a wildwood to me as a positive so I'm in favor of a three story building. I think we didn't hear conflicting data yesterday we certainly didn't hear from everyone on the call but Donna was pretty explicit asking for feedback multiple times throughout the meeting and some people did weigh in on that some people didn't. So I think that was in my comfort level and seeing the advantages and disadvantages. I see it more advantages and disadvantages when I look at three story versus two stories so you know that's, I think the last thing I'll say is I like the adjacencies a bit better. So when you look at two story you're looking at long corridors longer than our current long corridors, and where things are located feels less insistent yeah if you could bring up some of the slides that look internally. The integration of special ed and ELL on a three story building, you've got two grade levels and things we've together really quickly where students aren't walking far to get from a gen ed classroom to getting support if that's what they need. And when we looked at the two story just there was long quarters through good levels and it looked less integrated. In my opinion, so again that's for the committee to consider but that'd be, you know, where I'm sitting on the issue at the moment. So I'll just hand this up I'm just wondering if Allison or Tammy want to also to extent you're at the meetings give any impression. I mean you don't have to completely up to you. I'm happy to say something that I certainly don't want to step on anybody. For my years of teaching plus being a special education teacher from the educational and educational standpoint as well as an equitable standpoint. I did find that the three story building that we visited would give a higher impact for learning versus the amount of time that being in what looks like to me being in a two story building with a longer footprint would also decrease those opportunities for learning and maximizing what I would hope to be a more just sort of education because by being in a smaller in a building that has a smaller footprint where we only have two grades per potentially per floor. It maximizes teacher opportunity to collaborate and allows for flexibility. Yeah, I think the only thing just to quickly add to that is the goal of having the integrated special ed programs and when you have these kind of pods of grades per wing so to speak, it just creates a look out a little bit more of a challenge for the integration of these special ed programs especially when there may be more than one grade attending one of these programs so it's an unintended consequence of creating these kind of grade level pods. Alicia. I'm wondering if we know how many educators from Wildwood and Fort River attended the forum last night. I don't know about last night. I mean I think the, I don't know if Donna has that but the afternoon form I think you gave the number that was had and it was requested that we did. It was on the clock so it started at 245 so it was during teachers paid work day and as an optional meeting we didn't force anybody to go who didn't want to go. But I think that no Allison has her hand up I'm sorry. Yeah I just want to say it was an optional meeting but we canceled all other meetings, so that people could attend. I want to make that sure and then we made announcements and set several emails so that you know we wanted to make sure that people felt like they could go. And I did see in a number of Wildwood educators there. The majority were definitely from Wildwood I don't, I don't remember seeing other educators from other schools. I do want to say. When we're talking about bringing 575 students together. It is a good thing to mention like we don't want like Crocker farm being seen as the cozy. You know this is your school that you get with you want a nice neighborhood feel and then you have the Amherst elementary which is going to feel big and unwieldy. I think that the smaller footprint, letting, allowing for two grades per floor, it felt very cozy to me. And I say that in the best way it didn't feel like it was too small at all. But I think when you think of bringing a larger number of students together how do we help there feel like a sense of community. And it felt that way to me it felt like this would be a way to say no no you're not losing anything by going to the school with more students. Alicia. Thank you sorry. I have a question and clarity. I did I did want to know how many teachers attended if that's possible, the session. And sorry I was not clear about which session I was asking about, but the information session for the educators. So yesterday Alicia there was one in the afternoon that focused on layout suggestions sees and programs and two story three story. That was the entire focus of it and last night's community forum spent a pretty short amount of time on that and it was a webinar showing how these layouts would work on each of the sites so there was. We will will be posting that that will be available as you to, but there was a lot of community interest on the sites themselves you know the geotechnical questions on bikers and pedestrians. The focus last night we have a, it's possible to get a list of everyone that's there but I can imagine that busy teachers didn't spend their afternoon staring at layouts and then come and do another three hours at night. But that that presentation and discussion will be available to all staff. So the nice thing about is we don't have to choose. And we're going to get estimates on the two story versus three story. Along with the site so it's not a forced choice at this point. So I think we'll have more information between anything we'll have more information. Thank you Kathy. Yes, I was able to attend the forum last night and thank you I it was it was a great presentation. But my question was how many educators from Wildwood and Fort River attended the session and I meant the teachers that session that was the attendance level because I'm looking for like, I'm wondering in terms of outreach. So I'm wondering how many educators we got feedback from in terms of Wildwood versus Fort River. So I have Alicia I have the screenshot of everyone I'm counting I think there were 18 folks. I have names of everyone except for an iPhone, so I can give these to Mike and Tammy and and Allison and they can maybe decipher who was on the call. You know this was announced we sent a flyer, as Allison said, multiple kind of reminders to folks that this this was occurring and we really are looking for feedback to take it a step further if folks you know some folks are comfortable speaking up and other folks are uncomfortable, you know voicing their opinion and large groups whether it's zoom and we can't can or can't even see their faces so we recorded it, we're going to issue it, and we're going to develop a questionnaire to hopefully elicit some feedback that is not leading but will hopefully generate what people's comments are the pros and cons from their perspective for each of the options. So this was not the first time you've met with the teachers either, you know, I mean I know there was this is the third time we've met with the teachers that what that we, we've had these meetings whether whether people attended or not yeah. So I know, you know, I got Allison had written me because the way I'd listed the agenda. I'd listed as possible decision on two story versus three story and I only put that in because on an agenda, should we have wanted to make a decision. I would have had to signal it so we, we don't have to make a decision right now and I think Donna, you said last night that you're planning on getting estimates for both a two story and a three story option is that correct. Yeah, we will, we'll have both options cost it. Alicia is your hand up with your hand went up again so. Yeah, I just wanted to explain why, why I was wondering why I'm asking this question. And it's again in terms of outreach and so I'm trying to figure out like how many people we are reaching because I also didn't notice while the form I thought was really great last night and I did get a lot of community feedback and there's a lot of information from you all. It is the same attendees who attended the last forum in, in my opinion. And so what I'm looking for and hoping is like how many people are we reaching out to, and how many different educators are we reaching out to rather than continuously hearing from the same number of educators because I want to hear. I mean, I think it's really important to get feedback from the community from the youth, but also from the educators, different educators and so I want to know how we're measuring and keeping track of that. And I think it's great that we sent out multiple means of communication letting people know about the forum, but then in terms of how many people attended or were able to attend which is still slightly unclear to me. I'm just wondering if we're offering any other forms or ways that they can provide us feedback and how we're measuring that as well. Mike. Sure, so I think I'm not going to repeat what Allison, you know shared but we created space on people's paid schedule where they this was an option for them to attend. I think as Donna was indicating before we're going to send out electronic version and ask for written feedback from folks who didn't didn't arrive and if there's other kind of avenues or ways or ideas. Please just pass them my way. We're happy to try to do whatever we can do. But you know I think the reason we put it on during paid time and Allison thank you for canceling meetings. The afternoon because I know that had an impact on your school because there were other meetings that you had. You know, but you know we're not inclined to force people to go to meetings, asking for engagement, but we tried to create the conditions by which people would be on the clock and paid for their time to attend the meeting. Thank you. I think we'll move, keep going. I'm conscious of the time. So we can, we only have a couple more items on today's agenda. And I did want to talk about the meeting schedule a little bit. Since we have posted. So maybe I'll do that first. I had a quick, I have a question on whether we need to have this is it posted Oh, Donna didn't even listed on this one. Okay. We listed on our as a possible meeting next Friday for just a one hour meeting that would be to discuss options with no presentation whatsoever but just to go around the room. My understanding from Dennis go is today with the traffic study. This is the last time we would get a major presentation so it, we will have time on May 20 to start to have that go around the room and be discussing what we've heard. So, and we will, they will be sending the cost estimating information specifications, as Margaret said to the estimators, we will get that before we meet on the 20th and to exempt we have any, we'd like, what's this what have you asked for we can discuss it. So, I'm, I'm proposing we don't meet on the 13th, which would be next Friday for an hour and instead we make sure we carve out the space on the 20th to have it just be a group discussion you know, focus first on what we, we won't have the cost and then on June 3, we will have the cost estimates so on the 20th we can start to say with this matrix and this is a lead in to say and we have a criteria makers, we can start to say what do we think about these options you know what without making a decision what do we think about Fort River versus Wildwood what do we think about building new versus add Renault before we get costs. So, I'd like to hear I had, I think it was my proposal to do the 13th that this one hour, so if people are comfortable going from now and then having carving out that time the 20th, I think we would just eliminate the 13th so I wanted to find out if that seems like a good idea to everybody. Yes, if anyone really wants to. Yes, Mike, I could say anyone who wants to keep the 13th should tell me, but rarely advocate against canceling a meeting so good reason to meet I'm open to it but I think you'll be a popular chair. That's my guess. Okay, so there won't be a meeting on the 13th, and then the cost estimate specifications will be sent, but we will get them, hopefully the Monday or Tuesday, before we meet on the 20th, in terms of what was sent, and to extent we have any comments on them. We will do that and then we will be focusing on this criteria matrix. So that's just a piece, and Donna, I don't know whether are two people who did the traffic study. It's been great that they join us but if you want to continue with us it's fine but you, you. Yeah, thank you. You guys. We would like. You know so we could continue to have that we could have a more focused discussion and the matrix we're working with house. Thank you very much, by the way, David and Tim. Thank you. Good night and tonight you were very clear. So thank you, Kathy. Take care everyone. Thank you. Bye. So Kathy the only thing I wanted to on the schedule I think we talked about moving the June 17th meeting. I'm scurry and quickly through my calendar trying to figure out what date we landed on because I know it's not. Mike, Mike, and Tammy and Allison alerted me that that's the last day of school so that's not a good date the 17th and Mike said looking at his calendar the two possible alternatives were Monday of that week. And I got to get my calendar out. Yeah, that's what I have the 13th as a tentative whole. So Monday the 13th would be a possible alternative. And then if the 13th in the morning we're talking about Monday morning. If the 13th didn't work. It was the 10th of June which would be right after the June 9 community forum. And so, so I didn't know. I mean I could send out a poll to see whether people prefer the 13th or the 10th, but maybe right now if the 13th which is a Monday work for people, maybe people could indicate whether it doesn't work. Or, I don't know which is the best way to get this. I hate to do a poll of 12 people or 11 people in real time but those are two alternative dates that work Mike I'm correct that that worked on your schedule correct. Yeah. So we wanted to make sure because that's when that's just before that we need to move from many choices to one. So that's an important that that's a really important meeting to make sure that everyone can come to it. Can anyone not make the 13th and Angelica. But I think you said is the 13th out but the 10th works for you Angelica. So as I mentioned Kathy I will be out of the country and doing field work so I will not be within Wi Fi range for two for between June 1 and June, the 17th or 18th. And neither none of the dates would work and Angelica had asked Paul and I'll just find out if she can't participate in the meeting can she, and we're taking a vote, if we if we are trying to get to a preferred option by that point. Can you vote without being in the meeting and I, I don't know what, and I think the answer is no so you have to be present to vote yes. So that would be important Angelica then on the 20th when we're all talking with each other to come with as much as you can on your thoughts about the sites and about the choices we have a building new or Adreno. Because it looks like you won't be there for that decision. Anyone else. So it just the 13th work for everyone else. So we're going to officially say it's June 13 instead of June 17. And it will be scheduled for 830 in the morning. Okay, so with that said, said, I'm just, I want to make sure a couple people said they have a hard stop at 1030. So maybe Margaret. We, we need to do an invoice today maybe you could just bring up the matrix and we can defer an extended discussion on it but we had a, after we had a focus discussion on and I did a possible shorter version that I sent out to everyone and I can do it in a way that we, well, let's just do the what has been added to this. Dinesco did give us some information, and it was stated last night and I think I emailed it to everyone on the question of how much acreage is on the site, how much is buildable versus usable. There's an extensive set of words that go with each of those that I didn't put it in but this is looking at the wetlands the flood prone conservancy where we need to be careful of those demarcations in terms of building it gets us into a permitting situation. But it gives you a sense that one site clearly has more space on it and a lot more field space, we, there's no question that we can use that space for fields. So that's been added to this matrix and there was discussion I don't think we need to make it today on whether we stay with a four point scale or a three point scale. I think we have eliminated the one thing that was completely unacceptable and that was the 165 person school where we aren't looking at that anymore so I'm not sure that any of our options are unacceptable. There are some that are less good but some are more good which is horrible English. So, we could go to a three point scale, or we could keep a four. I don't have a strong feeling about it. There was some feeling expressed that people didn't like neutrals, this, this pinky shade, you know, that is either good or it's not good. But that we could discuss at a later point and I just didn't know we'll post this again. If this is our matrix. Then this what is what market issues scroll down. We left a few issues remaining but we put some things up every school will meet next net zero every school will have safety every school will have certain things so we don't need to rate them on it. Redistricting impacts, having gone to the consolidated school it's not clear that any site has a different impact on districting, you know, any of our choices so this is one we could delete that wasn't a potential delete. So, I, I'm going to look for the committee to give me input on this this was my attempt to get to a smaller number of criteria. I had forgotten one and a public comment alerted me to this that provide flexibility for future enrollment growth right now it used to be up in education it got moved to building it could be on site just on a room for growth, which is different than flexibility of education, the way the layouts are. And we added one during the discussion that if we needed to get any permission from the middle school if we were talking about that field at all. We would have to, and that's just purely would we do it or not. This is two story versus three story there is a matrix for that and remove from this is a decision on which HVAC system, we go with and my understanding is to nisco is planning to do cost estimates that for now assume ground source. Because that's the most expensive option so we could still come back and do the less expensive and is that correct we're not having to make that decision Donna. That's correct but we're also going to have an alternate so to speak with the air source and the cost estimates. So so we don't have to the basic thing is we don't have to make a decision now as part of this getting down the key decision is which site and and which building. So, but just just to add I'm sorry. When we move into schematic design we will need to know at at, you know, like, as soon as possible because the ground source clearly impacts the site air source is easy, right, but the ground source has all kinds of site implications. But I think what I think what you're warning us is that we have the last meeting scheduled right now for June 27, but there will be one in July. Yeah, I mean like if we if, if we could decide on that would be preferred because you would probably MSBA as part of the preferred schematic report. So, you know, if we haven't selected, you're going selected a ground source or air source, you know, we have to show MSBA that maybe we carry the higher number with the possible possibility that that air source may be a consideration, because I know costs right so maybe we have two tables I don't know I gotta think this through a little bit more, but we definitely would need to know, like, immediately after the vote, which is the preferred so if we could come to that conclusion, as part of this and we're working you know with the net zero and we've been, I think we have their preferred but we need to circle back on that one more time as well. That would be helpful because net the net zero subcommittee did not reach a conclusion Donna we, we, we, we, we had it as a maybe but so if we if we need to meet again, we'll figure out how to do that. Right, so on this matrix, you know, I can repost it I posted it for the last meeting and the main thing that's been added here was this flexible building and now that we have the acreage piece. But I would propose that this is the working document that when we come together on May 20, we start to say, okay. As I look across the road, this is a green, you know, or this is a pink, you know, or whatever that we start to fill it out a little bit where we won't have the cost yet we just, and we don't have to fill it out completely. So I'm looking for any kind of feedback on that rather than and then, and then sending this out to everyone and I'm really serious that this is, this is our criteria matrix so if something is missing or you think there are too many rows. And the final thing is Jonathan, in particular spoke to this but as did Mike of thinking are there are a few of these criteria that are the most important. You know that way that we, we weigh them more we, we put higher about, you know, and one would be fit with the education program cost is clearly going to be one of them. So I will stop talking and call them Mike. If the chair is agreeable I would just move that we accept this matrix. As what we plan to use moving forward, and then if there's a second, it's not not but if there is then we can have discussion but you know, I think everyone's in a great job with it and I think we're at the point where I feel like we need to affirmatively move forward with it. So, I move that we accept this matrix as presented. Jonathan, I guess, is there a second. Yeah. I'm almost ready to second I guess I'd say is that you had an item down under building the first item under building contextual design. I actually would encourage us to eliminate that all. I'm sure all the designs can be made contextual it's a very subjective thing to assess, and I would say, not really a practical thing to assess without 3D expressions of the building so to me that's, you know, something that could be eliminated and, and at that point I would be willing to say, Here we go. This is our proposal for our matrix. Can I do a point of order. Sure. Not to be and I could be wrong in this but I don't think we should be discussing it until it's either seconded and open for discussion or not. I will second your motion. There we go. Okay, okay. So the motion, the motion has been made and seconded by by Shane and Jonathan has proposed an amendment, a deletion of contextually sensitive design and this was one that was raised Jonathan, when we talked as, why do we need this. So Donna, do you want to speak to Mike's Jonathan's question as it relates to a sense of contextually sensitive design. Someone at the community meeting last night also said are we going to be seeing, you know, three dimensional models or anything. I'm not sure if he was asking as it related to cost estimates or what but at this phase we really haven't had the opportunity to start showing you visually, contextually, materials and how it would fit on each site. So that really, we're in agreement that it's premature in the process to be evaluating the quote unquote design of the building, which will come at the next phase. So, hearing no objections, I think we remove that row. Paul. Yeah, I think Mike has to accept that we remove to make that part of the motion so we don't have to vote on the amendment. Okay, Mike, do you accept that amendment. It is a very friendly amendment I accept it. Okay, thank you. People may have observed I need my parliamentarians along the way to tell me what to do next. Any, any other comments including, you know, if we accept this matrix and then we start to work with it we can, I think, as a committee decide one road just doesn't work, and we can delete it later if we want to the Rupert. Just a question, does accepting this matrix still allow us a future discussion about how to wait the various components. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Angelica. I have another question and also how we could indicate on that matrix about which the weight values. So it would there be like, you know, an index where you'd see the weight values and how much that. And then my, my other question is also for making revisions on this and suggesting things to be deleted is there like a process of guidelines so that we do this in a, like, a kind of similar way that we all follow the same process or procedure. So, a couple of thoughts on that, you know, and Angelica I know you work with weighted survey data as I have it's it's very tricky to assign values to lines. So we could either assign values, or we could say rows, a certain number of rows are the most important to us as we're looking through it so then we, as our eyes go down the idea of the color coding was you could see something gets a lot of green or something gets a lot of red or I think on some of these we're going to find that they're on the one hand on the other hand it's not a clear plus or a minus. So even assigning points to it. So, I think any suggestions would be useful. And the process of adding or subtracting, I guess, in my sort of practical senses, if we start to try to populate these. I might find one of these just doesn't work or when I go down market if you scroll down a little bit to the, the, the traffic in traffic out cars pedestrian there's there's a series of rows that has to do with the site. So maybe they all clustered together, you know that that that we're saying you know this this place works better for all of those. So it may be that there's some redundancy on these. And we just left them because they're separate concepts. So I think if you send in, if you send to me as chair, any thoughts on this I'll send this out right after the meeting on this. I really quickly make this a more efficient matrix if we wanted to to get to a smaller number of criteria. And I sent out a memo. It was in last meet with my initial thoughts of possible high priority, and that was put out there to stimulate conversation rather than I've thought long and hard and these are this is it. So what I propose if people are willing to move on this motion that this is the matrix we're going to go into the 20th with what I would propose is I resend it to everyone with this one deleted. People think about which are their highest priority rows, if there are any, and if they have any waiting, waiting ideas and if anything potentially could be eliminated right as we're going in. And I will just do a summary memo of every comment I get, you know with just these are the comments I got. Do you think is a process Angelica. Sure, I think that that works and I was also going to suggest if it's possible to receive this as a Google Doc or something so that we can make some edits to it that, you know, maybe we could send back to you and that way it's not completely erased those edits. Maybe that would help. And then send to Google Docs, as long as it's not sequential that the issue we ran into with the council is that we're not supposed to deliberate as a quorum when we're not in a meeting. And so it's a fantastic device for collecting everybody's comments. And so we ended with a council with a much more awkward way of one person collected them all. And then put and then added them so just what you're suggesting so I'll send it out as an Excel matrix with a comment column on it. And so if people individually send that back to me then I can assemble it. It's Paul is nodding his head but it was something we, we decided we just couldn't use to collect people's opinions. So we would be sharing our opinion outside of a meeting. Okay, Paul is nodding his head I think I captured that correctly. Yeah. Okay, so let me just say there's been a motion has been seconded I just want to know if there's any more discussion the motion was with the friendly amendment to delete one row to make this our matrix. Are people ready to vote on that and Margaret, did you want to speak to this first before we vote. I can wait and it's, it's, I have a comment about the three versus four great but that's not what you're taking emotion on so I can wait. That's helpful. Okay, so then I'm going to call vote on this. And I will call it by the people who are here and I still think we, we still have a quorum. Paul. Yes. Mike. Yes. Ben. Yes. Jonathan. Yes. Tammy. Yes. Rupert. Yes. Angelica. Yes. Sean. Yes. And Kathy is a yes, it's unanimous with, I think we're now Alicia dropped off and Phoebe isn't here and Simone isn't here Margaret so we'll have to in the minute show the three work that people were absent. So, those who were present. Thank you. Thank you for the motion. Mike. Okay, comment. Margaret. So, I, I want to put in a plug I think I've said this before, for the three point versus the four point system it's not my decision to make. I'm, I might get commented when we discussed this previously that the sort of four level system is sort of a, I would call it a feature of studies. But for me the three point system for the public is more helpful, because I think it is more clear and straightforward. But that's just my opinion for your consideration. I suppose that we make that decision next time we meet because I'm also conscious of time and so we will just get quickly to is it three or four. And people can kind of play with this when I send it back out to see whether you, you ever get to four in terms of trying to play with putting putting colors to some of the boxes. So we have one. We have one agenda item, which is the invoice, and I do want to take public comments as well. And I know Paul said he has a hard stop at 1030 so we need to be careful to keep a quorum. So, Margaret, we have the one in voice for Dinesco. Yes. One second. For a object that's in my way here. And while she's doing a Kathy, I think I might need to make you the host. Okay, because both you both you and Schoner have to leave at 1030. I know we, I know you have the public comment piece. So we have to have a one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. I, are we still seven if you to leave I don't know not sure we are. One, two, three, four, five. Sean can go and then we can do the whatever. Well, um, do we, I'm just torn because I would hate to not have public comments. Public comment. Yeah, we can hold the invoice. Okay, so let's move. Okay, so we're moving directly to public comment to make sure we have space for it and we have a quorum. So anyone who would like to make a public comment, please raise their hand. Sean, Schoner, Paul, I see one hand. Bring it in Maria. Maria, I think you are. You're joined us if you want me now. Yes. So, I have several comments to make about the, the traffic study which, as you know, was put up very late. Before this meeting and I don't know if anybody, I, I, it's incredibly frustrating that documents continue to be posted. So late. In addition, the MSBA response, which was received prior to your last meeting, did not get posted until extremely late before this meeting less than 24 hours. I'll forward on those points about the traffic study, but I just have to. But just went on here with having a vote, which was incidentally not listed as specifically a vote and the agenda about a matrix where you just got another revision. You haven't talked about the documents that were posted in previous iterations, and you just canceled a meeting for next week. You are talking about making all kinds of revisions to this matrix that you just voted to approve is completely befuddling to me. You need this, the process on that is, is not good. And I think you need to revisit that. And I think you need to reconsider having another meeting, because you're trying to jam a lot of stuff in here. And you've got several members not even present for this, for this vote. That's, it's not okay. Yeah, the presentation by your geotechnical and civil engineers was once again, very good. It was confused why you didn't use their analysis and they're what they told you about the floodplain at Fort River, not being in that location and then proceeded to use bright blue in future slides which are posted for the public to see for the other options. That's, that's also completely confusing and irritating to me, because we know that the firm maps are going to be voted on. And that large blue area is not accurate. It was extremely disappointing. Yeah, I'm going to stop there. I will send further comments to you by email. Thank you Maria. Do we have, we have two more people with their hands up. Rudy is coming in now. At the end. Did you call on me. You're here. The process you always get kicked out of the zoom call when you, you get added as a panelist and you go mute. So anyway, question will will the potential offsite costs. It's like the offsite cost of both a roundabout at the driveway entrance and the extra lane addition and the phase change of the signals for Fort River we're going to be added as cost lines in the cost estimate coming up if I got that right. I see people shaking their heads. So I'm going to assume that what about that piece of changes at strong and East Pleasant Street will those get captured as an align item I understand that traffic engineers are still working on that. And I wondered if we'll get that cleared up enough in time for there to be a line item on that and I'd encourage you to try to get that into if that might be a part of the additional town costs for that. And I've asked previously if there could be a way to break out the field costs that were not comparative comparable between the two schools. And, and have those as a separate line I guess that's getting dropped by the board but I hope people will will at least take that into account when they see the numbers for the site costs at Fort River, that you're getting substantially different item for the site with those costs, if they're not broken out separate from the very small area of playing fields that you'll get with Wildwood. So thanks. Sean you're bringing in. We have one more person with her hand up. Tony, you've joined us if you unmute. Yeah, there you are. Hi Tony. Hi, Tony Cunningham roll and drive. I was just wondering when you will be discussing the MSBA comments on the PDP and the draft responses from the district. I quickly scanned it yesterday evening and it seemed that some of the comments from the MSBA would impact the floor plan and the space summary. So I was wondering, I was a bit perturbed when you canceled that other meeting because I think there seems to be a lot that you need to talk about with respect to that. And then I would request that the draft basis of design narrative be posted today, which would be a week before you send it to AM Fogarty because I think there's a lot of interest in reviewing what's being sent, especially as it relates to the site, site work on site and both site work off site. And as it relates to what you discussed today with the traffic study. So if that basis of design narrative could be posted publicly today that would be appreciated. Thank you. So I think that is, that is it for hands up. So just our process. A few of these questions are answerable and we may not may have not posted the answers yet. The last question was asked, and Inesco has answered it. So I think what we'll do, Margaret and I were posting, trying to post some answers to questions on what will be it. And my understanding just with the schedule is the draft. That will be sent to the estimator is not available yet, but we will double check to give provide some answers to this. So, I think that is it's 1027. Paul is doing a thumbs up that we're miraculously ending on time. If I, as I, as people know I was the one who asked for the separate meeting, if between after the 20th, we feel like we need another we need more space, the committee's just got to ask for it, and we will create the space. We're not trying to rush a decision here. It's just, I'm also conscious that everybody is pressed for time. So, coming prepared will with questions with your thoughts at this point is extremely important. I'm going to send we will send links right away to last night's community forum when they're available and the charts, and the staff meeting. So, to the extent you can get the word out that this is not, this is not a done deal at this point, you know, in terms of we are moving toward making a decision and even the specific layouts if we chose three story building that's in motion it's not a decision there that will be in schematic design so that people understand what level of decision we're making. So I want to thank everyone. Thank everyone from coming great comments and the Dinesco team and I know, Mike, also you worked amazingly long hours on the MSBA comments. So I will just say that another counselor who's at an MMA fiscal policy meeting heard a town say what is MSBA doing these days there. They've never seen anything like they just got back, you know, and they think MSBA is trying to spread limited money among more schools, and, but, but it was extremely time consuming. And just so people know they asked us for documents that they had that we didn't because they forgot to send them to us. So, so it was just a very interesting process to get to respond to them I, and those comments. I really appreciate the amount of work that went into responding to that so thank you very much. And we are adjourned at