 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, a popular resistance broadcast of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti America's team, Code Pink, Common Frontiers, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Interreligious Task Force on Central America, Massachusetts Peace Action, Task Force on the Americas, and Venezuelan Analysis, we broadcast Thursdays at 4.30 p.m. Pacific, 7.30 p.m. Eastern, right here on YouTube Live, including channels for the Convo Couch, Popular Resistance, and Code Pink. Post-Broadcast recordings can be found at Apple Podcasts Spotify, Telegram, RadIntimedia.com, and now under Podcasts at popularresistance.org. Today's episode, Nicaragua, a history of US intervention and resistance, which also is the title of our guest's latest book. I want to welcome back to our program. I know our audience just loves you, Dan. Please, everyone, welcome author, activist, labor, and human rights attorney, Dan Kovalik. We're so happy that you had some time this week to have this conversation with us. For the audience, I just want to let all of you know, Dan just returned, is talking to us from Pittsburgh today. He just returned from an international delegation to Nicaragua, and I am hosting the program from Nicaragua today, so I'm still here. Let me give the audience a little bit of background, just a quick introduction to your book, Dan, and then we can have a conversation about the content. For the audience, I'm going to share with you some words from some very good friends of mine and Dan's, John Perry and Jill Clark Gallup. They are fellows with what Jill's an editor and John's a fellow with the Council on Hemispheric Affairs. So are you, Dan, I believe? Yes, I am. I'm a senior research fellow. Yes. I'm a senior research fellow. I sit on the board and for the audience, just remind you that COHA, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, is a broadcast partner of this program. Here's a brief introduction from Jill and John. The latest book by labor and human rights attorney, Dan Cavallick, entitled Nicaragua, A History of U.S. Intervention and Resistance, published 2023 by Clarity Cress, it's about 300 pages, 292, I think they say, exact, is a worthy addition to the author's collection of works on countries targeted by U.S. imperialism, such as Venezuela, Russia, and Iran. While giving readers a thoughtful and much fuller picture than one can glean from the corporate media, this volume tells an engaging tale based on personal experience and extensive research. And so it's your personal experience we wanna hear about because you have a great story as to how you first came to Nicaragua. Maybe we should start with that because it's just really wonderful and very inspiring. Yeah, well, thank you. First of all, thanks for having me on the show. Terry, it's always a pleasure. So yeah, I came to Nicaragua in 1987 and actually took a month off the college to come. I was 19 at the time. By the way, it was for the first time ever when I was being interviewed by Alberto Mora last week in Nicaragua. It hadn't occurred to me ever in all these years that I went to Nicaragua when I was 19. Of course, July 19th is the big celebration. So anyway, I was very concerned about what was happening in Central America for a long time. Really, I think the murder of Archbishop Romero in 1980 was one of the big things that got me interested because I was raised around the Catholic and then the rape and murder of the four church women in El Salvador several months later. These were things that really shook me because at the time, it was pretty clear that it was US-backed forces that had done these terrible deeds and that was really contrary to what I thought the US was about, right? So I continue to follow what was happening. Most of the people in my life were very right-wing people. I had this a priest in high school named Father Putka who was his very ultra-right-wing priest who actually brought a Contra leader to Cincinnati to speak and he was very supportive of the Contras. Totally antithetical to the liberation theology happening. Yes. Well, in Latin America and the Caribbean. I'd ask that, yeah. Yeah, he'd probably get along pretty well with the priests in Nicaragua right now, but. Touche. Any case, so, but I continue to be interested in it but I was having my doubts about what this Father Putka was saying and, you know, but anyways, I think I just decided that I had to go to Nicaragua for myself to see what was happening, you know, because I was hearing very different things from very different people. So I took a month off from college to do that and I spent a month in Okatoll, Nicaragua doing reforce station work with the Nicaragua network, which is now, you know, the Alliance for Global Justice. The Alliance for Global Justice based in Tucson, Arizona really grew out of the Nicaragua network and it was an incredible experience. I mean, for someone like me who had never left the US except to go to Canada a couple of times with my parents as a kid, it was a real shock to the system. I'd never seen such extreme poverty and I was very struck by that and immediately struck with, wow. So my country is saying Nicaragua is this huge threat to us and we have to arm the Contras because the San Anistas are just, according to Ronald Reagan, just what did he say? I forget, he said a two day march to the Texas border or whatever, which isn't true, but, and then you realize these folks aren't a threat to anyone. I mean, you know, this is a very poor country, not well armed, certainly had a lot of spirit to their fighting because they were defending their homeland, but the idea that they could be a threat to the mighty United States was a joke and became very apparent very quickly in Nicaragua. To drive up to Ocatal at that time, you were driving a lot of times on barely paved, if paved roads at all. And Ocatal itself was so poor at the time, this is again in 1987, so. Can we just stop for a minute for the audience so that we all understand why the country was so poor because this in the 80s, they had the San D'Anises, the FSLN, the Ortega government, well, it was a junta, it was a combination government at that time, had just overthrown two generations of U.S.-backed dictatorship, the Samosa regime. Right. And Samosa. Which was the city's priority in the country, human resources and natural resources. Yeah, so, I mean, first of all, Samosa, which the U.S. helped install and backed his, he and his two sons from 1934 till he was overthrown and the third one was overthrown in 1979. The Samosas did nothing to develop the country. They looted the country badly, particularly the last Samosa who stole all the aid money after the earthquake. In fact, being a Pittsburgher, this led directly to the death of Roberto Clemente, our great baseball player for the pirates who had been sending aid down and then read in the newspaper that Samosa was stealing all the aid. So he decided to fly to Monago with aid himself, feeling like I got to do this myself if I'm gonna get aid there. Tragically, his plane blew up on the runway in Puerto Rico and he died, you know. So, I mean, the corruption of the Samosas was legion. I mean, it was famous. Even the New York Times talked about it despite the fact that he was a darling of the United States. So when the San Anises took over, of course, their main goal was to bring healthcare, education and development infrastructure to the country. They began to do this, but within, they barely had time to breathe before the US was backing these Contra terrorist groups against the country in 1981 who, in addition to terrorizing the population, destroyed critical infrastructure like electrical power plants and hospitals and clinics and undermined the economy. In the US, undermined the economy by sanctioning Nicaragua, blockading Nicaragua, mining Nicaragua's harvors, destroying oil installations. And so by 1987, this war had been going on for about six years and all the hard work the San Anises had done in terms of development and social programs was being greatly undermined. It was very hard for them to continue these programs given that most of their resources had to be put into the war to defend themselves. By the end of the war in 1990, 30,000 Nicaraguans have been killed in this war and the economy had been devastated. So when I was there in 87, again, six years into the war, this was not the best time for Nicaragua. This was a difficult time economically and the people were tired and exhausted from this war. And so, yeah, by the time I got there to Ocota in 1987, it was a tough place to be as it is right on the Honduran border. So, and that's where the Contras were mostly operating from. There was a Southern front, but that wasn't particularly significant. The real significant front was in Honduras and Ocota was right in the, you know, crosshairs of that. You know, so the water situation was bad, even for us, you know, the American delegation who tends to be treated well in countries like Nicaragua, we didn't have running water. They brought water to us every day in this big plastic container and even that, I don't think was clean. I mean, we were very sick for a month, every single one of us. We were just puking all the time. And I'm not saying that to complain, but to say that this is how people were living. Like, you know, most people were not having water delivered to them every day. And so, and electricity was sporadic. There were a lot of blackouts. And again, you know, one sign that kids are, of poverty is that kids did not have shoes. Kids were literally wearing rags. I mean, I had never seen anything like it. Honestly, I haven't seen it often even since. It was a very difficult situation and it was heartbreaking to see knowing that my country was behind this and that my country was attacking these poor people. And I would go to church. Again, I was very devout Catholic at the time. I would go to church on Sunday at the main cathedral there in Okatoll, which is famous because it was the site of battles between Sandino's forces and the Marines in the 1920s. Okatoll also was bombed. Oh, yes. Yeah, they even have a plaque. It was bombed in 1927 by US Marine forces in some of the first aerial bombings in world history. And... Now that was before the Spanish Civil War, which really accelerated. It did accelerate. Now the first ones is I put a point out like, yeah, with Guernica and all that, right? Namely Picasso. I didn't realize that the US did that earlier. Yes. Now I do mention in my book, the Italians did it even earlier in Libya in 1910, I believe, but still this was not a common thing to do. Although as I also mentioned in my book, the Wright brothers, now I went to the school from Dayton, Wright brothers are from Dayton, Ohio, and they built their plane thinking that the only use for, that the biggest use for them to make profit would be to sell it to the War Department for bombings. That is, at the time, those planes were tiny, right? So they didn't think of them as having commercial use, but they thought, hey, we could make some money. Did they drop bombs? Yeah, to the War Department to drop bombs. Oh my God. Wow. And that's what they were used for. So, Occatol was the citus of all this, and again, the cathedral had been a site of it, and I would go to the cathedral every Sunday. In fact, I was back in Occatol last year, and I went back to the cathedral, and it was like a flood of memories. It hadn't changed at all, you know, all the statues, everything, it really reminded me of it, but when I would sit there at the time in 1987, I'd be praying with the Nicaraguans. It shook, you know, my world was shaken. Not only did I get on this trip, I really felt disillusioned in my government in the United States. Honestly, I became disillusioned in God because I was with these poor people praying for peace, and I said, you know, and I just felt like God is not answering these people's prayers, you know. And I was, you know, again, my whole world was shaken by this, and I just, when you saw these people struggling, it just, it really was impactful. I never had an experience like it even since. I mean, it really had changed my life, and I became a real anti-dihart anti-imperialist after that, and I never, ever was shaken from that. And then I went the next year, I drove there with the Veterans Peace Convoy, drove to Nicaragua from Dayton, Ohio, where I was still going to college, but it was during the summer, so I didn't have to take any time off from school. And that was a fascinating experience. First of all, it took about two months just to start crossing the border because the US customs and immigration would not let us leave the country because they said we were bringing contraband. They wouldn't let you leave the United States. That's correct. Okay. So what happened is the day we were stuck- But you weren't going into Mexico. But they knew we were going to Nicaragua, so we made a big thing of it. We had press conferences. We had, all of our trucks were painted with all kinds of graffiti, Viva the FSM. We were very clear about what we were doing. We were clear on the- For a reason, because we wanted to, we wanted to challenge the blockade, right? And we had our trucks filled with humanitarian aid. It was all just humanitarian aid, but the government said, I think it was the Treasury Department who regulates these things said that, oh, but the trucks you're planning to leave there, which was true, those could be used to move troops. So that's a military. But didn't they leave Toyotas in Afghanistan? Well, I suppose the point is they said, we were acting illegally by bringing these trucks and wanting to leave them there. So on the day we were going, on the day we left, so we left as a convoy. At the time, I don't know how many trucks we had, but we had a lot at that time. I don't know if it was certainly scores of trucks, all lined up again with graffiti and all this. And we headed to the border to go through customs, but as a line of trucks. And as we approach customs officials or whoever they were, I'm not sure who they were, but the US police type officials attacked the first car. They smashed the windows of it and threw tear gas in there. Oh, wow. And inside, by the way, was Jerry Condon, who I think, you know. Oh, our good friend, yeah. Raul Valdez and Bob Livese, all Vietnam veterans. And they, you know, I watched this happen, you know, with the truck fill up with tear gas and they were, and they did not let us cross. So all of us then recamped in Laredo for a bit. Then we drove to Washington DC, did a loop, a couple loops around the White House, again protesting this thing. And then driving back to Laredo, where we waited for several weeks to try to cross. Wow. In the meantime, we sued Secretary of State George Schultz. In federal court, we would ultimately win the case. The judge found we were being unconstitutionally treated by not being able to leave the country and bring the sentence to doubt. And that decision is still on the books. You can find that public decision. But in the meantime, I think you actually kind of were in school. I learned more, I've learned more in Nicaragua or going to Nicaragua than I did in school. Believe me, believe me. So, but then I think separate and apart from that decision, I'm not sure even when that came down, we ended up crossing one truck at a time, which they ended up letting us do after, after again, a couple months, they just kind of gave up and let us, as long as we weren't crossing as a convoy, they just kind of looked the other way, let us go. By that time, we maybe had 20 trucks left because most of us were adults with jobs and families. But the college students and then the retired vets were able to keep going. So we did. And we drove through Mexico, we drove through Guatemala, Honduras, we bypassed El Salvador, which was very dangerous at the time because the war was still going on then. And then the Nicaragua, again, that was just an amazing experience. All along the way, people had organized stops for us, churches for us to sleep in. They gave us food, they had meals ready for us. They had kids who sang to us. It was incredible, it was incredible. And in Mexico city, they had a mass force. And the guy who said the mass was known as the red bisher and red being. Come on. Yeah. I'll never forget what he said. He said, if you were to follow Jesus Christ on earth, you must follow his disciples on earth. St. Fidel Castro, St. Daniel, get up. It was great. So those two experiences when I'm, you know, basically a child, 19 and 20, they formed who I am today. Like that never, you can see how animated I am, how I'm still excited I am about those experiences. You know, Jerry Conn and I are still very close. I mean, every time we see each other, we talk about that convoy. Right, I mean, it's a beautiful thing. I mean, he's like a dad to me because he was one of the leaders of that trip. And I just love the guy. And it's just, you know, those are lifelong friendships that you will always have to have gone through that with people. So Nicaragua was my teacher. I mean, Nicaragua was and is so important to me, you know? And so there you go. Now, why I wrote the book at the time I did was because of really the 2018 crisis, which really, you know, a lot of us felt and still feel needs answering about, you know, because there's so much confusion about it. So it felt like the right time to write this book because honestly in the 80s, and then even into the 90s, a lot of people were writing books about Nicaragua. Like everyone was going, I don't want to say everyone, but a lot of people were going. I'm getting inspired a lot of people, you know, the San Anista inspired a lot, you know, when I, we were too young for Cuba, but Nicaragua was right in those high school college years. Yeah, so in the clash had an album called, yeah, and they had clash had an album called San Anista, you know, in popular culture is a big deal. And so into the 90s, even people writing books, et cetera. Now that began to lessen as time went on, you know, when the San Anistas lost the election in 1990, a lot of people kind of moved away from Nicaragua, at least gradually, you know. So for the audience in 1990, it was a neoliberal government put back a US backed neoliberal that wasn't a dictatorship quote unquote, but it was a neoliberal construct and that lasted for 16 years. Yeah. And I did almost everything. Yeah, I did the literacy program, I did the healthcare programs in education, sold off, you know, parts of Nicaragua, sold off the train system they had. I didn't even know until recently they had had a train system. You can still see some of those old trains sitting there. Even tomorrow, the first of the neoliberal presidents gave some of those islands back to Columbia, which is one of the reasons that Nicaragua is struggling to get those back. They just, again. So this is the islands that, this is San Andres and Providencia, that were Nicaragua weren't Nicaragua and that has a lot to do with the colonization of the British of the Caribbean and Nicaragua does have a Caribbean coast. And then the Pacific coast being colonized by Spain via the Catholic church. So those islands have been back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. That's correct. But again, Chamorro without even any pressure on her just gave them up because she was operating, her loyalty was to the United States, not her own people. You know, again, they were not, these are not loyal oppositionists. These are people who, again, their masters were in Washington, not the people of Nicaragua. And those were very sad times and very depressing times for people of Nicaragua. And a lot of the solidarity movement in the West and in the US became disheartening kind of moved on. And then when Ortega was voted back in 2006 and took office in 2007. Again, a lot of the solidarity movement didn't come back, you know, because people had moved on, forgot even who the guy was. You know, I always give this quote, Gourvy Dahl called the USA, the United States of Amnesia. Unfortunately, Americans forget a lot of things and forgot a lot of people who even went there forgot about their experiences there, you know, and that was just a blip on the screen, I guess, for their lives. But then there was a core of us that was not true for it. It was not a mere blip in our lives. It was fundamental to who we are, certainly fundamental to who I am. And, you know, the things I do now today, you know, going to Venezuela, going to Russia, going to the Donbass, all that comes from the Nicaragua trip, all that. And it's all very connected. Like, you know, the Sandinistas would understand all that work is connected to what they're doing. They would understand that that is a seamless thing because they have an internationalist perspective, right? Which you and I saw on July 19th, right? With the, they really highlighted Burkina Faso, which has had a really a revolution, you know, that's which I didn't even know about. So I went to Nicaragua. I had to hear it from Daniel Ortega to learn about it. You know, they have an understanding, like as poor as they are and as, you know, much struggles they have, they have the emotional capacity to care about other people in other countries, which is an amazing thing. They never gave up as you and other people that traveled with you in the 80s. The Sandinistas never gave up their, that sense of what they fought for, their victory, their political formation, their community building. They never gave that up. That never went away just because there were 16 years of a neoliberal government. And I would argue that is how and why they came back to power in 2006. And are continuing to build on that electoral win in 2006. I mean, it's amazing the infrastructure that is in the country. The roads are some, if not the best, I would argue in the Americas, including North America. Oh, much better than North America. I could show, if I could show you my outdoor about Fifth Avenue here, that's been under reconstruction for three years and shows no signs of being finished. No, it's absolutely true. And we were just at the brand new, it's still being built, but we were at the brand new Roberto Clemente stadium, which is beautiful from what we could tell. We were on the outside because the inside's still being built. But yeah, there's all sorts of construction that's happening. No, it's very inspiring. And it's for the people. It's to uplift the majority of the population. It's not for any specific, for a specific elitist group. It's to improve the lives of the majority of citizens. And regardless of politics, everyone is benefiting from it. Even the opposition is benefiting from good results. That's what a lot of people point out. I mean, the sad, horrible, or the betrayal was so great in 2018 when the business community turned very violently against the San Anise is given the fact that the business community had done very, very well under the San Anises. The economy had grown 5% every year and the business people did very fine under their leadership. And, you know, but that wasn't enough for them. And it wasn't enough for the Catholic church either, sadly. But yeah, they've done so. And again, I went back to Ocatal last year and it was, I didn't recognize the city. Again, aside from the church, everything else was transformed. Brand new hospital, you know, the city looked beautiful. They had, when I was there, they had a, they have a market every week, which I don't think they had when I was there. A brand new park. I mean, it's just a different place. Everyone looked great, looked fat and happy. You know, you didn't see the kids without shoes. The kids are going to school. I mean, a transformation. And again, no, you know, driving on paved roads that used to, you know, when I was there in 87 were dirt roads, you know, that were barely passable. And that's a neoliberal government never paved either. No, no, they didn't provide electricity to people either. About 50% of the country was still unelectrified when the San Anises came back to power in 2006. And a lot of the country didn't have running water or sewage, you know, I mean, again, the samosas and the neoliberal governments have done, did nothing, even in terms of development, sometimes at least, you know, these neoliberal governments or, and even dictatorships at least will do some sort of development. It might be unequal or whatever, but these folks had no interest in that. They just had interest in lining their own pockets. And preserving the real estate and the natural resources for the, for US business interests. Exactly, which they benefited from, which they got kickbacks from. And they had had and have utter contempt for their own people. You know, the vast majority of people in Nicaragua are peasants and working class people. And that opposition has no interest in those people, which is the vast majority of people. They look down on those people. You know, I'll tell you a little anecdote, you know? And I noticed this at the hotel and it took someone to point this out to me. I did a little film on Nicaragua a couple of years ago and my camera guy and director was a guy named Hermann from Montreal, but he's originally from Columbia, South America. And he was very impressed when we ran into these farmers on the road who were in this horse-drawn carriage and we talked to them. And after we left, and again, I didn't, just didn't mean anything to me, but he pointed this out. He said, Dan, and Hermann's been to like 64 different countries or something doing filming. He'd been all everywhere. He said, Danny, notice something? And he said, those guys looked us right in the eye when they were talking to us. He said, that is not common in other countries or in Nicaragua before the revolution. Those guys would look down, you know, because they would be in a lower strata, but the revolution uplifted those people. And I noticed that at the hotel we stayed at. Again, it was very, after Hermann told me that, I started noticing this, there was a groundskeeper who was, you know, like raking leaves. And he looked straight at me in the eye and said, hello to me, asked me how I was doing. Again, that's the revolution. That would not have happened before 1979. A guy like that wouldn't even speak to you if you were a guest at the hotel, right? Cause it was more of a, it was like a caste system. And that's been broken, you know? And people- And they broke it themselves. Yeah, well, that's true. I would argue you see that same, you see that same inner personal pride and respect in Haiti, Cuba, Venezuela as well. Yeah. Cause they're revolutionary society. In this country. Yeah, right. They're revolutionary society. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. And again, the people don't see that. They don't, they don't see the incredible things this revolution has done and accomplished against the greatest odds in the world. Meaning the Colossus to the North, the United States, which has done everything not just to overturn the revolution but to destroy that country. I mean, it's amazing that country survived the 1980s that it survived- Well, it's still being attacked. I mean, now the warfare is economic warfare. So it hasn't gone away. You know, the economic warfare from the United States, the sanctions, particularly the sanctions bill that passed last year, the Renacer Act, and now there's a new one, an extension of that that was introduced June 8th, I believe, of this year. So they're still trying to intervene, well, they are intervening economically and they're still trying to, you know, destroy the Ortega government, the Sandinistas, the FSLN. It's not ever really gone away, but they're so resilient. Yeah, no, it's incredible. And they understand the United States like no one else probably. Yeah, well, and I always tell people, I mean, the truth is, and well, I mean, it's not totally fair to make the comparison because Venezuela and Cuba have been under worse sanctions than Nicaragua. Recently anyway, though the 80s, nothing was worse than what Nicaragua was dealing with. But I think Nicaragua is doing better than Venezuela and Cuba. I mean, I think today, in part because the sanctions have only returned recently to Nicaragua, but also because I do think that they've been, I think they're so battle-hardened. You know, they've been able to really deal with it cleverly, you know, in a clever way. And they're almost 100% food sovereign, meaning almost all the food they eat, they grow themselves, which was what got them through, yeah, got them through the 2018 crisis. You know, and that has not been true for Venezuela, though I think they're starting to become more food sovereign. You know, but most countries in the developing world are like one or two crop countries that sell for export, but don't grow their own food. They import their own food, which makes them quite vulnerable to sanctions. Well, Nicaragua, whatever happens with sanctions, their people will eat. And that's a big deal. Right, that's a big deal. And they've been very intentional about that. And again, in a peasant society, which Nicaragua is, it's not only great cause everyone can eat, but it also means the livelihood of the peasants is protected too. And that was the name of the game. You know, that's what Sandino wanted. And back in the 30s, 20s and 30s. And that's what the San Anises have carried out. They have fulfilled their promises to the peasants and then some. And that's who the, you know, the revolution is for. It's for the poor people and working class people of Nicaragua. It's not for the intellectuals, you know, and every, everyone in the US, you know, that I know who has a beef with Nicaraguas cause they know one or two intellectuals in Nicaragua who are disgruntled. And it's like, well, I'm sorry, the revolution was not for them. No, it was for the poor people. But, you know, there's two things I wanna say or ask you about one, we mentioned the intellectuals, but when the FLCLN was created by Carlos Fonseca, that generation of leadership, they were what, in their 30s, they were all, they were from middle class families. They were- That's true. And they, but they saw what had to happen, what transformation was required in their country to liberate the majority of people. And it was really, it was brilliant. And it showed that in, you know, throughout the history of the FLCLN, they worked across different demographics, principally focused on uplifting Campesinos and working people, but they were able to work across a fairly wide demographic of their citizenship. Well, and again, they were even willing to work with business people who were willing to work with them. They were willing to work with the church. They were, you talk about a popular front. I mean, the revolution was won with that popular front. Again, and Danielle tried to do that after he was elected in 2006. And he did it successfully. He worked with all those groups and then they turned on him, you know, but they were willing to work with whoever. But at the same time, they always had a class conscious politics and that's what's lacking in the US. Yes. There is no class conscious politics for the most part amongst what even calls themselves a left anymore. And that's why they're confused. That's why they don't see what's happening in Nicaragua is a good thing because they don't get it, right? They don't think about things in terms of working class. They don't think about... Or movement building, labor movement building, social movement building, we don't, no, we don't really even understand what that is. Not anymore. I mean, we've really moved away from that. You know, the hammer and sickle, you know, the peasants and then the workers, you know, and that's who's benefiting in Nicaragua. And in the day, the American left would have fully understood that. And they did in the 80s, but you know, the politics has just gone so off the rails. And that's why they're not at Carlos Fonseca or Danny Ortega or Thomas Bore. They don't have their class consciousness, you know. That's true. I would totally agree with that. So, you know, Dan, before I let you go, there's one thing I'd like you to share with the audience that we were in Managua on as part of an international delegation to celebrate the 44th anniversary of July 19th, July 19, 1979. And we were fortunate enough to be invited to attend the actual government, the official government presentation to the people we sat in, I guess we were at the stadium you talked about earlier, the Roberto Clemente Stadium. We were out front. And it was basically set up like a live studio audience. And the president's address was broadcast throughout the country. And he talked for almost two hours. I know some people, I remember being back at the hotel and some people saying, wow, that was very long. And he talked about a lot of this, that and the other thing I should not, you know, no. You have to understand that we were basically part of a TV, a televised studio audience. Ortega used that hour and a half, two hours to talk to his people across the country on the 44th anniversary. So we were fortunate to be part of the studio audience. I would frame it that way, I think, but his talk was so really profound. A lot of history, you know, re-iterating the 200 year history of Nicaragua to the population with, you know, highlights on Sandino and Carlos Fonseca. And as you mentioned earlier, the other liberation movements around the world. And one guest did talk about Thomas Sankar. Yeah, and Ortega mentioned that. He opened talking about him and his assassination. He got to meet him, he said in 1986. No. And again, like I learned stuff from it. Yeah, he uses these talks to educate people, people about the world and about history. It's an incredible thing. No, he's, and he's so very real about it. He's just a normal person. It's hard to, I mean, he's just, and he comes across in many ways like an activist himself, still to this day. That's what he is. And he wore a baseball cap. I don't even know what he was on it. It wasn't anything political and kind of a windbreaker. And then when it was over, he just walked out with no security and let people totally mob him and almost crush him, but he loved it. He loved it and he hugged people and he took selfies. Could you imagine, if you tried that with Joe Biden, he'd be shocked. I mean... Yeah, he'd be in prison at the very least. Yeah, no, it was amazing. And it shows how popular he is and how confident he feels with his own people. Yeah. You know, another, just again, a little anecdote. There was a guy from the international delegation. I'm not sure where he's from, but, and I didn't know where he's from, but he was kind of oddly sitting on the floor in front of us. So like in front of the stage, a little, you know, a little far removed. He was in the chairs and the stage. Yeah, and he was sitting there with his flag and he kept trying to get Danielle's attention. And I'll be honest, I thought the guy seemed like a nut. Okay. And, but Danielle invited him up. And that was the first banner. That was the gentleman with the first banner. Yeah. And then, and Danielle signed it. That gentleman was from the guerrilla movement of the resistance in Chile. Okay, which is great. But you know, again, he seemed like he was really, he seemed kind of weird what he was doing, but Ortega, the president of the country, said, come on up. Guy sitting on the floor, and he brought him up and he held the flag up. I mean, again, this would never happen. This guy would have been thrown out in the United States if he tried. He wouldn't have even been allowed to sit there, much less. He would not be allowed to sit there. It was his, his friend that he hit the banner of his friend. Yeah, he was so proud of it. Resistance against Chile. Yeah. Ortega showed it off and it was great. But again, it shows what confidence he has in humanity and in people that this guy wasn't crazy. He's still connecting on that level. Right. Because after that banner was signed about three or four more people came up with there. Yeah, and then a lot of people came up. That's right. That was really great. And we need to point out to people, we did not go through metal detectors to get into this event. It was outside. There were no metal detectors. There was barely any security. Again, you could not imagine this at a US presidential event or even a presidential candidate event. Right. Well, that guy could have had a knife. That guy could have had a gun. And yet he was welcomed up to say hi to Danielle. That's an incredible thing. That shows someone, again, who has total confidence in the people. And that's just an amazing thing. And they and him. Of course. And him, yeah. Yeah, it's really, it's a really wonderful energy. And as you had said earlier when we started our conversation, how much the Sandinises and the FSLN have inspired you and so many other people. And so at that event on the 19th to see these other people with their resistance banners, many of them the same era actually. Yeah. And to still be all so close and in solidarity with each other's battles. And we'll take a reinforcing that solidarity right in front of the world on camera. Yeah. It's really beautiful. It's incredible. It shouldn't have been noted, actually. There were a lot of Chileans who fought with the Sandinistas a lot who after Pentechette came up and worked with the Sandinistas, and you know, so there's so much overlap between all these struggles. Yeah. Pretty amazing. It's a really beautiful thing. And so in closing, what would you like to share with the audience? What's the most important thing to you regarding, I mean, your whole story is wonderful for the audience to know? I mean, I just think the main thing is that we need to keep faith in these movements. We need to support Nicaragua. We need to support Venezuela. We need to support Cuba. These are countries under attack and they're under attack from our own country. We cannot abandon these people but also we should learn from them and we should visit these countries when we can. And it really is a mutually beneficial thing to do that. I always have energy and inspiration when I come back from these countries. The revolution, I guess what I would end by saying is the revolution continues. It has not died. It did not die in the 80s. It did not die in the 90s. It continues and it deserves our support. Wonderful. It never died in Nicaragua. Never did. No, never did. And the fruits of that are so present now. Absolutely. So thank you, Dan. It's always so wonderful to be in conversation with you. I'm so happy you had time for this broadcast today. And... It's my pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure, Terry. And tell the audience where they can find your book. Well, pretty much anywhere. You can get it on Amazon and you can get it directly from my publisher, Clarity Press. And you could get it in your local bookstore if they don't have it, they can order it for you. So you can pretty much get it where books are sold. And the title of the book is Nicaragua, A History of U.S. Intervention and Resistance. Yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Terry. Thanks, everyone. We'll see you next time. Okay.