 The Land Portal Foundation, the 10-year facility in the Townsend Writers Foundation. So this initiative promotes the importance of recognizing legal ownership of indigenous peoples and local communities' land rights as a prerequisite for achieving national and international roles for forced governance, food security, climate mitigation, economic development, and human rights. So, the Land Dialogue series will run some months until October with each webinar tackling a different topic. I'm Fabio Teixeira, I'm the correspondent for the Writers Foundation in Brazil, and I'm delighted to be your host today. So, we have a fantastic panel who I will introduce to you shortly. First, I'll ask you guys to listen to a little bit of housekeeping for my part. The webinar will take place in English, and it will be simultaneously translated to Spanish, French, and Portuguese. To assess that, please see the channels located at the bottom of your screen. We'll have opening remarks and a discussion for about an hour, and finally, I'll take questions from the audience. This will take us about 90 minutes to the webinar. If you do have questions, please post them using the Q&A button. It's at the bottom of your screen, and not the chat box feature. And then I'll fill those to the panelists so we don't have to go through all the pain of going up or muting and muting themselves to ask questions. And feel free to tweet using the hashtag LandDialogues and follow our tweeting from the LandPorto and the TANF facility Twitter accounts. Also, I should add that today's session is being recorded, and we will send you the link afterwards. To begin, I'd like to get to know you guys in the audience. And we have almost 500 people signed up, and we know that today's topic is interesting. So let's find a bit more about who is out there and where everyone is from. If you'd like to introduce ourselves via the chat and tell us where you are joining us, that would be great. Okay, thanks very much, everyone. So let's now take a moment to introduce our panel and let us speak about the experiences. So first of all, we have Joan Carlin. She's an indigenous activist from the Corgillera in the Philippines. She has been working on indigenous issues at the grassroots level to international levels for more than 20 years. Her field of expertise includes human rights, sustainable development, environment and climate change, as well as the principles and applications of free prior and farm consent. She's currently the co-founder of the Indigenous People's Major Group for Sustainable Development and works directly with indigenous organizations and networks across the globe. Next, we have Iqau Angelay. Iqau is an environmental activist. She is co-founder and director of Friends of Lake Turkana, a grassroots organization that seeks to foster economic and environmental justice in the Lake Turkana basin. Iqau completed a master's degree in public policy and political science at Stony Brook University in New York. In 2012, she was awarded the Goldman Environmental Prize for her pricing on behalf of Northern Canyon Indigenous communities about the environmental implications of the Gildee Geep Earth Dam. Next, we have Atina Ronquillo-Bandesteros. Atina is the managing director of Global Climate Strategies for the Climate Leadership Initiative that leveraged so deep climate expertise and extensive global network to guide new climate philanthropists to outsize the impact. Atina, please, I'll let you guys know that Atina will be joining us for the first hour of this conversation. And we will answer questions via email. We will share her contact information on the chat box. And finally, we'll have Marcelo Guerra. Marcelo is the president of Kona Pip, the national coordinating body of indigenous peoples in Panama. Kona Pip is working with indigenous authorities in the government to advance the territorial security of the indigenous peoples of Panama. Now let's get into the Q&A. And please, I'll let you guys, I remind you guys that we can ask questions via the box below. But please not the chat box, the Q&A box. And I'll please ask the panelists to feed their answers relatively brief so you can cover a good amount of ground. So before we start, I'll also invite you guys to take a look at the trailer entitled Panama Tenure Tales. Sorry guys, I realize I'm not hearing any sound from the trailer. Sorry for the lack of sound, we're trying to figure out how to solve it, but so we don't lose any more time. I'd like to start by asking Marcelo a few questions. And Marcelo, can you hear me okay? Yes, I can hear you, I can hear you. Hello? Okay. I can hear you. Okay, thank you very much Marcelo. Hello. So let's start. Marcelo, what is the renewable energy? And Marcelo, what did you learn from what I've seen in the trailer and how can things be done differently? Marcelo, are you there? Well, good morning to everyone. First of all, the learning that we've learned from a struggle of the indigenous people in Panama is an official recognition of their territory. We defend our territories and it's a very long struggle that we've had and that we will continue to fight until the areas that are still not so titled and we want to help them. And well, through T.F. support, we have been advancing to give them these rights to the indigenous people. On the other hand, it is also official recognition of our land, which is important because we live from it, we eat from it. And that's why, therefore, we have seen the security and the learning that we have had at the moment, a very long and difficult struggle for us as indigenous people in Panama. And also, on the third place, we know that there has been a pressure and the pressure is also from governments to the indigenous people. The invasions of part of the colonies also, but thanks to that we have been developing in exercise together to be able to be in the unity of the indigenous people and have territorial security. And in Panama there are 12 congresses and 7 indigenous people. Each of them, we join together to be able to look for the alternative to territorial security of each of the different comarques and different indigenous sectors in Panama. That would be the part that we wanted to explain to you. Thank you Marcelo. So could you please explain what is the renewable energy plan for Panama and how it is affecting indigenous peoples? Well, first of all, the energy demand in the country has been increased. First of all, the forced generation for fossil fuels and each of them. We have seen situations that are really in three hydroelectric plants that are in the energy that are in Panama. And recently, I believe, it is also in the Comarcan Orduble in the border and the other is in the Comarcan Asos. The situation is that we, as indigenous peoples, as you saw in the video, we do not want to damage our rivers. Because we know that that river is our nature and that we live from it and we want to see how beautiful it is. Because we really have seen situations that each one of them, as we have seen in the video, sometimes sacrifices to the fish and others. And that they really damage the rivers instead of being very good for the visit and that, some tourists and others. But then, when we start or start to do hydroelectric in that part, then we already damage the river. And therefore, we have seen in Panama that there is a very complicated situation and that also in the middle or in the same community. And they do not give us that opportunity either. If they do not always take the energy to other countries and we only have the time that is affected at the level of us. Yeah, that's fascinating. Actually, the same thing happens in Brazil as well with dams and indigenous communities. So, Pinal Marcelo, what do you think needs to happen at an actual level? Sorry? Well, if what happens, what will have to happen in Panama? The struggle is great. At the level of indigenous peoples, like in the case of Bayano, which is also within, I think it is a demand. And it happens that sometimes the struggles are lost, the interest of the entity, especially the culture, also the trend. So, they go through and that is a shame because really the indigenous peoples, we do not want that to happen. And that that can be lost. In a short time, the losses of the pensions and the losses of others. And therefore, we have asked the government and mainly the indigenous peoples. Well, we have seen that also in Panama, the issue of what has not been done is the ratification of the command in 1909. And Panama we do not have. And so, well, the government does not want to give us that right for us. So therefore, it can happen that this can be up to a demand. At the level of that part of the indigenous peoples, Panama we can do that. Thank you, Marcelo. Now we will turn to Joan. Joan Carlin, please. So, John, can you tell us a little bit about the implications of renewable energy development to land and resource rights of indigenous peoples in terms of challenges and opportunities considering that this is critical in the climate change and achieving sustainable development for everyone. Thanks, Fabio. The implications of renewable energy to to land in Europe indigenous peoples is profound, especially as it pose a serious threat to the exercise and protection of our rights over land. The resources as you have seen in the in the case of Panama, as presented by Marcelo, their reverence system, which is their resource is under threat for destruction by hydrodoms, which is part of the renewable energy. And we also see this cases of land grabbing happening in Mexico in the case of windmill farms, also in windmill farms in Norway and in Kenya. So, land grabbing is now becoming a common problem, a common challenge because of the imposition of renewable energy in indigenous territories. I must say that that we are supporting the just transition from fossil fuel to renewable energy. It's not that we are opposing renewable energy per se. The problem is that it's being implemented under business as usual, instead of being a being a transformational shift in a way that it respects the rights of communities that are hosting this renewable energy. And if we talk about indigenous peoples, this means that there should be the transformation that we want to see from the just transition, if we are to make it as under a human rights based approach is to ensure the protection of our rights to our land territories and resources, our right to manage also our resources, including the respect for our self governance systems, and also to ensure that our sustainable livelihoods are protected. So these are imperative if we are to shift from fossil fuel to renewable energy. And once we do that shift, then indigenous peoples are enabled to better manage our resources and also provides more support to sustainable livelihoods and also the empowerment of women in harnessing our resources to benefit communities. Thank you, John. Another question for you. Could you tell us a little bit about your initiative, the right energy partnership, and how it can be a model for human rights based approach for advancing energy transition. What are the goals of this partnership? Yes. So the reason behind why we set up or initiated the right energy partnership is precisely to address the problems, the inherent problems in the way renewable energy is being implemented that is leading to the violation of our collective and individual rights as indigenous peoples, and it is also exacerbating inequality and marginalization of indigenous peoples. The right energy partnership is an indigenous led partnership that is based on the human rights based approach to renewable energy and also uphold social equity and empowerment of women as well as indigenous communities. So the goals are one to ensure that energy development in indigenous territories fully respects and fully aligned to the respect and protection of human rights. The second is to provide access to renewable energy to indigenous communities, which are hosting a lot of renewable energy, but are not getting the energy as Marcelo has mentioned, we're not even the beneficiaries of this energy. What we want now is that there will be community based renewable energy that is driven by communities to serve their self-determined development, including sustainable ways of resource management, and that it also allows the meaningful integration of women and empowerment of women in this endeavor. I must, perhaps I want to mention here that in the negotiations on renewable energy or clean energy for all. There's a lot of commitment, for example, on efficient cooking fuel, because they said that would liberate women from this kind of work. And I raised, yeah, that's true that we should address making cooking efficient, but at the same time we should also not tie down women to cooking because cooking should be a responsibility for men and women. And that's precisely the problem that if we want, if we continue to domesticate women for cooking, then we are not also addressing the issue of shared responsibility and gender equity. So, I mean, I just mentioned that because for me, it's really when we look at the issue of energy, we should also be mindful that we are indeed empowering women, particularly that they participate in decision making so that their perspectives and aspirations are also fully accounted. Thanks, John. That's fascinating. So, as COP26 is approaching and leaders across the world are taking decisions to implement the Paris Agreement. What are the messages to them in relation to land tenure and energy transition for indigenous peoples? I think it's important to hammer that we cannot effectively address climate change without the protection of land tenure of indigenous peoples. And we cannot continue to be talking about false solutions to climate change, for example, carbon trading under nature-based solutions when we are not providing the enabling environment for indigenous peoples to continue to contribute in protecting our planet, protecting biodiversity, and that is underpinned by the need to ensure protection of the rights of indigenous peoples to lands, territories, and resources. And that indigenous peoples should be regarded as actors, rights holders, and partners in finding solutions and advancing solutions to climate change, and that we should not be regarded as enemies. And that is really the narrative that we want to change, that we as actors and as rights holders be part of the decisions, but also be in the driving seat with the protection of our rights, especially our rights to our lands, territories, and resources, and our well-being and our dignity. Thanks. Thanks very much, Joan. So, Athena. Adia, can I weigh in on the COP question? Sure, sure. Close to Joan. All yours. Just like with Joan and I think a few others. Some of us have been following this process from both the inside and the outside. Well, first of all, thank you everybody and good morning from my side of the world. I think just on the COP question, this is probably one of the few opportunities where I know, and it will be announced publicly, but I think some of you are aware that there's a very big effort on the part of indigenous peoples' coalitions from all over the world, as I've read by many of the leaders who are on this call, with philanthropy and a few champion governments, as we call them, to make sure that there is as nature-based solutions, as climate finance, as energy transition commitments are announced, that there's also a big package of work that is really centered on the role of indigenous peoples and communities to protect their land and territories while meeting sustainable development and climate goals. And I think this is what used to be an impossible vision, maybe happening at this COP, but it will require this group's collective work and push to make sure that whatever resources or attention or technical support, and capacity and other kinds of data and research commitments are presented at the COP, that that centers equity and justice amongst all things and that indigenous communities and vulnerable communities from the most vulnerable countries in the world participate and have a voice and space in those announcements. So I just want to flag that as a major opportunity. I also want to respond to, I don't know if the other panelists are seeing the questions. There was a question around interactions between indigenous peoples and businesses when considering ESG and corporate social responsibility. I want to tell you that obviously there's a tension there, not all companies who embrace corporate social responsibility and ESG necessarily are going to align with our vision of awarding general rights to indigenous communities in the longer term, because that really conflicts with the business model. But the example I want to flag to you would be the smaller businesses and the social enterprises I have worked with in the past. And these are sort of smaller joint ventures and I have seen how social enterprises who really care about sustainable development goals number seven, delivering energy access, have played a major role in ensuring that energy services to the poorest and most vulnerable communities are put front and center of the business model right so it's a very different kind of business model, and they get the resources from either venture philanthropy, where I came from, or they get it from impact investors so there's a slice of the private sector that can actually be partners of indigenous communities and indigenous territories in this conversation and I just want to highlight that and perhaps in future conversations, we could put communities together with this mission oriented social enterprises because their business model is really meant to benefit communities, particularly women and children in highly vulnerable areas of the world. And it's a very different business model from some of the companies that that Johan is alluding to. Thanks Athena, let's keep going we feel that if I could ask you a question about the lessons we can learn from other communities that have participated in renewable energy planning and what, and what other indigenous people can draw from those experiences. And so, I think I have three or four quick lessons that I've learned as a practitioner on renewable energy on on climate and finance. And this is obviously speaking from personal experience not necessarily from my, my new purchase part of the climate initiative, although I must point out that there's a huge role for philanthropy in this space, as we are doing now trying to raise money for the tenure facility and all the other indigenous peoples and local community led solutions so I think one which is the subject of your series of webinars I think ownership of land and getting to neural rights and league communities owning the land and resources for renewable energy projects are cited need to be front and center of designing any renewable energy project. I can tell you that that's not automatically the default for project developers. So, there's a lot of resistance from communities because they don't get consulted from the beginning, but the successful ones that I've seen particularly for projects in Indonesia, in Vietnam, and a lot of decentralized community based solar projects in India. Again, in partnership with social enterprises have land ownership as a primary sort of recipe for success right, and the project developers and the small businesses who come and partner with communities, take that into account. And so the second lesson learned as a result of that model is that there's equitable benefit sharing which I think Marcelo and, and Joan alluded to earlier, you have to design renewable energy projects with community ownership in mind and therefore equitable benefit sharing so that you are not just generating power to benefit nearby communities and not benefiting the community that's hosting the project. I think the third piece that I've learned is what we're calling demand side management where you are trying to design renewable energy projects based on actual demand from the community that's hosting it. This sounds very simple, but we've seen particularly in large scale hydro and traditional fossil fuel projects that earlier speakers have alluded to that they developed the project from very outdated GDP based energy policy and planning models, and they would say, you know, this community needs 500 megawatts of hydro. Well, no one has bothered to ask what the actual demand is from the communities in the area, and what future ventures in that area what kind of power demand is needed usually it really just comes from the top. The other things that are designed, I think one of my favorite examples is actually in the Cordilleras led by a group called Sibat where a series of micro hydro projects very small you know five kilowatt projects benefiting 25 households and there's a series of them is so successful because the system is designed to meet the community demand right so it's top down. And then finally I think what I would say as another lesson learned is that indigenous communities and social enterprises working together have to build an ecosystem I call it the surround sound of stakeholders and partners who will make the projects successful and I think the two or three partners that you really have to keep in mind. One is obviously you have to have your, your energy regulators or your champions in the utilities to allow you to build the kind of projects that you want to build, you know, to take the Panama example they have a very strong voice and they can influence energy policy and they have to have their officials and regulators to make sure that the projects are designed and given incentives based on what indigenous communities are demanding not based on what the corporate interests are demanding them to do and again that's very difficult, but it only comes with, you know, collective action from different responsibilities. The other two stakeholders important as part of your building that ecosystem would be the local businesses and entrepreneurs who are mission oriented because indigenous communities know how to manage and protect their land, but they haven't been exposed to some of the technologies that will ultimately benefit their rights. So you have to partner with the right people who have done their best to diligence the technologies and the process of building the systems with ownership in mind. And finally they have you have to work with a set of mission related investors, because the projects will not have any form of sustainability and longevity if you don't partner with mission related financiers and investors. Thanks, John. I think you already talked a little bit about this, but could you expand a little bit on what national international partners can do and do to support the role of indigenous people in curating implementing renewable energy projects. Yeah, I mean I alluded to this earlier but I would highlight two or three really important partnerships I mean one, you all, I mean a few of you have already mentioned sustainable energy for all as an intergovernmental body. And in order for indigenous communities to really be heard loudly and more powerfully, you need to own some of those energy compacts right and Joan, you know what I'm talking about we have to lead by example because if we don't push the kind of business models that we want to see for our business that can happen. So, you need to make sure that you are partnering with the right champions from intergovernmental bodies whether it's arena the International Renewable Energy Network. That has a very bespoke program for indigenous and vulnerable communities by the way, the sustainable energy for all which are now developing energy compacts with different stakeholders. And obviously your own government champions we don't always have government champions in many parts of the world but in many places we do have some friends in government friends in regulatory agencies. And that's one. I actually think we in philanthropy have a role to play again for foundation is a big supporter of your of all your work. We are your best source of early stage, the risking project development capital, because we are grant makers. We are a return on investment and we are we take risks, especially for projects that involve indigenous communities because there's a lot of political risks technical risks sovereign risks. None of your private sector partners will be able to do that so you have to be able to tap philanthropic support. And then finally I cannot over emphasize this but in any part of the world, there is a cadre of social entrepreneurs. And tap into them tap into the diaspora and social enterprises. I actually wrote the piece on this together with some friends, a couple of years ago called community based business models with social enterprises and I'm happy to share that with the audience but two things I've learned. Most of the founders of social enterprises for renewable energy are members of the diaspora right so this are India and Filipino Southeast Asia and African Latino entrepreneurs who have gone abroad to study, they all come back and they all develop their own startups that are mission oriented. Those are your, your best partners, because they know how to deliver the technology in ways that will actually benefit and again, they will have to work with financial institution so there must be local banks, development banks, impact investors, and venture philanthropists and venture capitalists who are willing to take risks, and have a smaller return of investment because they know they're doing mission related investments. Thanks so much Athena. Hi Kyle can you hear me. Yes Fabio I can. Oh, thank you. Hello. Could you please talk a little bit about how your country Kenya is being affected by the renewable energy plan that they have, and how it is affecting indigenous peoples. All right. Thanks Fabio and thanks. Good afternoon. Good morning to the my fellow panelists and for those who've joined us. Thank you for joining this important conversation. I think for Kenya for East Africa for the African continent. There's just a mix of conversations so yes, on paper, there's, there's, there's on paper you can hear, you know, the president, the ministers talking about shifting to renewable energy. But at the same time they're still, they're still an energy mix with with fossil fuels. But having said that you can see a rush, especially where they're financing towards renewable energy so when the European Investment Bank was putting money into geothermal there was a rush to get land, which happens to be an indigenous indigenous lands to to explore for geothermal. When there was an interest in the largest wind farm in Africa. The electric kind of wind farm. There was a rush, which then in many cases because of this conversation of shifting technology as Athena was was talking about the technological part. The rush to move to transition the technology from fossil fuels to renewable. There's, let's say a watering down off of safeguards of processes so while there's a demand by, you know, financial institutions like the European Investment Bank for free prime form consent you see that being ignored under the term public participation. How many people does it need to then okay or authorize or give consent is another question. I think that you see that an increase in the uptake of land. So in the case of electronic wind power, everybody, everybody, you know, all the financiers, including Google who had an interest in investing in the wind farm, all, you know, wanted to have a piece of the cake but nobody, nobody was asking why the communities have a concern. In 2012 2013, then when the conversation began in 2015, the community, the local community in Sarima, where the wind farm is based, went to court. And even when you know the process was in court, people, you know, the government gave guarantee. The financial institutions including the Dutch Embassy, who was supporting some of the Somo fans was actually, you know, supporting this process all because there was a big global discussion around transitioning to green energy. So you can see this push for the transition to green energy, but at the expense of indigenous lands and territories. Pastoral mostly pastoralist lands. And I think that that that itself is a case for concern. As of yesterday I was saying, you know, some comments about the Sami land and no way, the court in Norway, making a judgment that the land was acquired illegally. And the Sami people saying now they want the entire, all the projects discontinued. In Kenya, the same happened, the courts actually indicated that the land was acquired illegally. However, goes back and says, we would like the land regularized yet it is illegal allocation of land. So you find institutions, you know, institutions actually bending over backwards to legalize the land that is related to land just because it is renewable energy or what they say is a public good. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Kyle. So, could you please talk a little bit about the opportunities for indigenous people to be included in the sustainable development goals when it comes to energy transition. How do they write figures into that. So, having participated in the, in the tenure facility and the conversation around securing tenure for indigenous people. It is a very critical, you know, we have got to look at this, the link between securing tenure. But then, in the cases like in most African countries and in most global south there's this narrative that the land is yours. And if you have title it doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily secure you from dispossession by the state. I think for me is a very critical discussion that we need to delve into. One is if you're going to secure tenure for communities we've got to then say, so when they have the secure tenure what happens next. And that's and the use of capital the use of, of corporations and the state to fragment the collective use of that land the collective ownership of that land is visible. So we've got to expand the conversation beyond just secure of tenure to then saying how, what is the sustainability of the secure of tenure, especially with the increased capital in specific geographies, where we can say is resource frontiers. And if you look at the energy, you know, SDG on access to energy, you know, listening to Athena, we've got to also then expand it, yes, technologically in indigenous lands, but then who owns this technology and, and I think it's really important for us to then either decide, are we going to use natural capital as part of the ownership of this, of this energy developments on our lands because I give you know listening to the pandemic situation, even here in with the we know whether it is hydroelectric power whether it is the wind farm. It is the generation is down on indigenous and local communities lands and territories, but it is, it is transmitted to a central greed. So there's not decentralized systems at the moment so it's centralized greed. And then after that, you're then the last people to be decided based on the economic numbers the GDP numbers that I use you know the GDP numbers I used to say okay is this a high economic zone. You know most indigenous lands globally has not seen as high economic zones, but only for extraction, not for production. And, and so we've then you know so that that for me is one of the challenges that we can generate the power we can give consent, but then what do we own this power what percentage of this power do we own. And because we do not we really are not at the center of the conversation, we are then thrown at corporate social responsibility a school a toilet a water point, which in fact should be states provided. So even now the companies come in and give us that and then we see that that is the process I think it is very critical in this conversations to then separate the two between corporate social responsibility, but what is really owned, because the resources of the land, the resources water, all this is actually resources that are productive for this communities. And, and the fact that they're being taken up or being enclosed by the development of energy does not make the you know the energy is not more superior to the production. of the by the indigenous people using this resources so I think it is it is you know there's an opportunity now as the conversation of energy transition happens access to energy happens, we've then got to say who's developing the energy, what's take do the local communities indigenous people have in the production of this energy, whether it is through land as natural capital or otherwise, but then and it's not only at that point, but they are there throughout the entire process, ensuring that they actually are able to afford. Because it's one thing one of the biggest discussions around SDGs is that we're talking about, you know, how many people are connected to the grid but how many people are able to sustainably afford to pay for the energy that is it is that is produced and they can access. Thanks, thanks to cow. So, what is your organization, what is your organization, the friends of like to kind of doing this regard how it is working the region. So we work at various levels are the grassroots level energy justice and link to land and environmental rights state your rights is a very critical part of our work. And that, and you know working in partnership with with Jordan and the right energy partnership is allowing us to not only look at other grassroots position but then expanding it so at the national level what are they, what is the interest of the government in terms of energy and where they where they doing this, but I think we've for a long time not only indigenous people civil society looked at this issues in silos so based either on a particular geographies where we are working countries and that and I think through the right energy partnership we've been we've started to expand that that that conversation. Looking at some of the questions lithium generation in South America, South America, the same lithium cobalt nickel aluminum copper is being generated within the African continent. So, as much as we are talking about this it's trying to link the voices to look at what is the political economy around you know analysis of energy generation distribution, who is actually pushing this agenda, and the local communities who on the lands and territories, where are they in this conversation, but also looking at it not only from, you know, wind and others but also looking at the cost, because there's a cost of land. There's a cost of livelihood, there's a cost of water. There's a cost of displacement, because of the renewable energy transition and we've got to start asking ourselves, who's bearing the cost. So, it's so believable talk about, you know, what has happened what would happen reduction and fall in greenhouse gas emissions, yes, but then what is happening to local communities who tend not to be on the table, and whose, whose impact is is is is minimized at you know for the bigger bigger conversations that are being that are going to be happening at the COP 26. So, so it's really critical for us to, you know, so that's what we are doing we're trying to amplify the voices trying to link with existing work but also trying to create conversations between the eastern West West Africa, South Africa, and the other panelists. So now before we go to the questions and answers from the audience, I think we managed to figure out what was wrong with the trailer so we'll try to show it now again for you guys. We've been fighting since 1973, a very, very big fight, but we've achieved our comarques and we feel so proud. Almost two years of obtaining the title of land collective property, we consider that it is important to start with a process that goes parallel to the protection of the territory, encamined in search of better conditions for this life. In the national energy plan of the government, four points are found in the head of this great river for the construction of more electricity. We are not going to allow more electricity inside and we want that river to stay as beautiful and beautiful as we have it. We want a community that keeps the collective, that keeps the unity, that keeps the security between us because in the end that is the value that our people have. Second time is the show. So, hi John, do you want to speak? You're muted. I was just raising my hand to respond to some of the questions. Sure. I did want to some of the questions in the chat. Yeah, actually, the first questions to you. I'll just say it out loud for you for the other people to hear. So, given the myriad challenges and threats to indigenous people's rights, and considering the realization of large scale energy projects, how can voluntary local reviews complement voluntary national reviews in ensuring equitable implementation in realization of the SDGs and protecting indigenous rights while states advance the renewable energy transition. So that's for you and that's a complex one I guess. Yeah, it actually deals with the SDG processes but I've responded to that but basically saying that local voluntary reviews reflect the realities on the ground and that should complement the voluntary national reviews. For those that are not familiar with the SDG, this is the process where each country, each state prepared their report on how they are implementing the SDGs and that is called the voluntary national review. So it's basically a report on what progress they have done. But what I'm saying is that when we talk on equity and renewable energy, it's beyond the reporting. It's what it requires is the political will of states to really respect the rights of indigenous peoples and include appropriate targets and specific targets in conjunction with indigenous peoples. That is actually what's needed to be done and that is really the gap in the SDGs. It's all about, you know, talks of leaving no one behind but really lacking in action on the ground, really lacking the kind of partnership that is needed. That is, that allows indigenous peoples to be part of the planning and designing actions to reach the SDGs including in relation to access to renewable energy. Thanks, John. So the next question is for Marcelo, but actually it's also to everyone else. So, Marcelo, what interactions have taken place between indigenous people and businesses, especially when considering ESG and corporate social responsibility commitments that are indicated in business portfolios and are scrutinized by regulatory agencies, investors, customers and other stakeholders. Also, a very specific and interesting question. Can you hear me okay, Marcelo? Did you get the question? Marcelo, can you hear me? Hello? Marcelo, are you there? Fabio, maybe we should explain the audience that Marcelo is actually traveling to the NASA community, which is where this film was filmed. And he has, he might have lost connectivity on the way. Oh, okay. Okay, so apologies for that. Maybe he will be available a little bit later. Okay, so let's move on to a question to all panelists. Is there a danger that objecting to renewable projects undermines the campaigns to recognize the contribution to the environment made by indigenous people who control their own lands? In front of public opinion, you will seem a little bit contradictory, according to the questioner. If it could start with Ikal, first, please. I do not think that asking for things to be done right is in any way contradicting. I think for me, I think it is an opportunity. We've always rushed and given sort of like the decisions that development ideas is really for corporate. I think for the first time, we really have an opportunity, having seen what COVID did, having seen what the struggle and economic, sort of like the large economic development plan really during this 2020-2021 year has allowed for a conversation to say, well, we're not building back better, but we are building it fresh. And for me, this is really an opportunity and ensuring that we don't, as Joanne said, indigenous communities are not just victims. They are contributors to the development process. They are contributors, they are participants, they are beneficiaries, and it is important to have that very inclusive process. And this itself, having this conversation, part of many other conversations, really is an opportunity to rethink outside the box. And I think that is what exactly we are doing here. Thank you, Ikal. Atina, I know you have to leave in a little while, but if you could also weigh in, since you are here for us with us. Sure, sure. I mean, Ikal has said many of the points, but just to underscore two or three things. One is that I think whether we like it or not, there will always be a tension about the tension between corporate interests and indigenous communities, and I must say other vulnerable communities' interests. They just don't go together. They're not aligned, right? Because the interests and the outcomes that each of these stakeholders seek are completely in contradiction with each other. It's profits versus people, right? It's money versus land, right? It's wealth versus human rights and indigenous rights. So it is, I must say, very frankly, from a personal perspective that that's irreconcilable. I don't know why that's very difficult for me to say, because it's a very difficult concept. But let me just tell you that I think, and this is to answer two or three other questions in the thread, Fabio, if you allow me, because I have to go soon, and Joan and Ikal and the panel can pick it up. I think one is that we do have examples where we have struck, I wouldn't say it's a perfect balance, but we have managed to strike some semblance of balance interests where renewable energy projects were able to take off. And in fact, displacing either diesel or coal-fired power projects, my province in the Philippines is an example, Negros, right? They're not necessarily indigenous communities, but the people have spoken and said, we don't want a series of 50 megawatt plants. We want power, right? Because there are livelihoods and enterprises that need to be powered by electricity. Where are we going to get it from? So the communities and the leaders work with technical experts and regulators and champions in the utilities, and they manage with support from organizations like ours to kick out all the vested interests, corporate interests pushing for coal, and instead are building a series of wind farms in properties and land owned by peasants and local farmers, right? But the way, the Ikal's point is very important, the way the whole process of consultation and benefit sharing and procurement of not rights, but joint ventures was done in a very participatory way. And so the design of the project, the curation of the renewable energy projects put communities' interests at the center of it all, and therefore it avoided a lot of the mishaps. And now, this is a very difficult thing to model when you're doing large scale energy projects, particularly large dams, large oil and coal-fired power plants. And therefore there was also a question here around, how do you make sure that FIT, which is feed in tariffs or RPS, renewable portfolio standards, and sorry for the people who are not energy wonks like us, that there's a lot of acronyms in this event. I'm happy to explain them to you offline, but I think the lesson there is that the interventions and the kind of influence strategies that our community needs to think about at the local level is somehow very distinct from when you're fighting the big fights at the national level. In that video, you saw Marcelo and the partners challenging a national energy plan that is not responsive to their communities. That's a very difficult but potentially winnable fight. And one example I gave on the chat is when communities come together with consumer groups, with parliamentarians, with media. And particularly the constituency of groups represented in this call. If we all come together and push, push, push, our governments who are going to the COP and say, you are going to commit to a ratchet mechanism to increase your ambition through your nationally determined contributions or your national action plans, you have to make sure that renewable energy targets contained in those plans actually benefit indigenous communities and the most vulnerable and forced in our community, especially during and post COVID. And that's not necessarily necessarily the case. So indigenous communities and coalitions alone will not win that fight. We're going to have to work with a coalition of partners in order to do that. It's much, much easier to see, well, not much easier. It's a little bit easier to see progress on the ground in specific territories because especially when you already have the new real rights, because you have the number one recipe for success which I mentioned earlier Fabio, which is ownership of land. If you own the land and resources, you should be able to tell any corporate interest and government interest to design and curate the projects based on what the communities need and actual demand. You can control the conversation, because you're already, you know, you're already at the front seat, but that's very difficult to do at the national and global setting so I just wanted to differentiate that those two interventions and influence strategies from our end civil society are quite distinct. Yes, yes, I just want to add another. There's a question on inspirational success stories so since the team has covered the good, the models or the good practice in the Philippines I would just like to cite the ones in in in Malaysia. It's more again as a community based renewable energy combining solar and and micro hydro and the interesting and this is in in in Sabah and the interesting thing is when when they they are they develop the micro hydro for the energy needs of communities that also supports their livelihoods and it's not just having light in their houses. It also led to better protection of the watershed because the people realize that they need that water so that they have continued source of power of energy and thereby the they made regulations on how to better protect the watershed and and they have also learned how to manage the community to manage the the micro hydro in in a way that the community are able to collectively decide as well on how to manage the risk to maintain and generate some income and how to manage that income for the benefit of the community and and that that kind of development is now being implemented all over in Malaysia and now they are helping communities in Indonesia to build their micro hydro transfer the knowledge. So in the language of other people they call this the South South Exchange that we are learning from each other that the indigenous knowledge and by the way they make micro hydro from renewable from renewable recycled materials aluminum so they produce it's tailored fit so they tailored the kind of micro hydro to the to what the community needs. So so this has been been now replicated in in in Sabah and as Athena has mentioned there's actually an association of of is of renew a small renewable energy community based renewable energy in Southeast Asia and they're facilitating you know exchange and lessons learned and skills and that is really driving a lot of of community based renewable energy because that is what fits community as Athena has mentioned it fits what they need and so the solution is not necessarily big and that's what we're saying we don't have to go big the solutions can be small and that is more manageable and it's more sustainable than so that we need to us as it kind of said get be out of the box right and and and really think what is the interest of communities and and and how do they want to proceed with addressing their needs, including in on the issue of renewable energy. Thanks so much on actually the next question is also for the panelists, but if we could start with you, John. It's about the effort that are being made by indigenous people to receive compensation for the use of their natural resources, as well as access to the energy that is developed. Perhaps in contract where flocking rates over multiple years with incremental increasing rates, is that something that is interesting to the indigenous people. I think Athena has partly responded. Yes, Athena has part partly responded to that question, but but but the model that is being done now for for for the that the the return of of I mean having benefits is the is the best the payment for ecological services. Right that the communities that are providing ecological service get compensated for that. That is still not the common or the or the trend but but I know that in certain communities and in the in the in the in the Philippines, those that are protecting the watershed which which is supplying irrigation to to to the to the lower part are actually paying those that are protecting the watershed because without their protection they will not get the water for their irrigation so that the farmers are paying back from the services that they they they get. And that was voluntarily done right by by by the farmers in the in the low lower area saying that since we recognize that you are providing us, we want to compensate you so that you are encouraged to continue to to protect the the watershed so it's it's a it's a it's like a community to community support in terms of acknowledging that the kind of of of benefits that others get from the protection of of ecosystems. But let me just jump in there. The example for joining is really great because that's a very communal one so if you look at the here in in Kenya where community energy projects are really they're blocked by government because well it's it's not government and it's not cooperate who's running it. So you see one the biggest question even for for all of us is compensation for what because when you don't recognize what landward resources that is being abstracted is being extracted from the region, then the big question is what exactly are you compensating the valuation of our lands and territories is very minimal because it is seen to be not productive lands. So it starts from there if the if the if the calculation evaluation of lands and territories is skewed against the communities, then the compensation like in the Kenyan case land valuation laws are being made so that because it I do not have house or crops on my land because it is rangelands it is grazing area by the land value is zero. So then the compensation is minimal or non-existent so that's I think that's the best place to start what is being compensated. The second one is again the energy laws that are being made so again the case I gave for the electric kind of wind farm based on our energy laws the conversation of benefit sharing focused on mining and all, but then green energy, it is within the laws that it comes in through the green climate funds green bonds, etc. All this in my opinion illicit financial flows that are calculated in the Silicon Valley, and our governments are given peanuts, which they take because they think it's freeman. So you have all this a very again a global system that continues to if you ask any African government to tell you what they get for the for the clean energy, they will tell you it comes under climate bonds, and those climate bonds are not they they're not on the table when those climate bonds are being calculated. So the companies that are doing this are sitting in the Silicon Valley. So, again, we are still just recipients of something that we don't know what because again our own governments believe this is free land that has been given to a corporate company to develop energy that the government benefits from. What the community lost after that is not there. What really the energy value is our governments do not know but then again, it's not in their geographies it is a local indigenous community who's either lost their land and life. So I think a lot of this compensations we've got to start to ask ourselves what exactly is being compensated who is being compensated and for how long, because this energy companies, you know, continue if you look at the stock exchange. They never in our countries they're in the global north, they continue to go up in value, and then our value our our compensation is based on the land value as of today. And for the next 100 years five generations from today, we will be compensating at the same amount, yet the value of those companies continues to go up. So, when we think about compensation we've got to ask ourselves, what exactly is is being compensated and how is that calculation that Thank you. Another question for the panelists. If you could please start out, but a question is, we are seeing very limited implementation of the three prior informed consent protocols and a variety of interpretations of this protocol by the people that are responsible for make for implementing it. How can those protocols help? How can we understand, how can we advanced a unified understanding of those protocols or three prior informed consent. Good start. Yes. When I feel that over time the discussion on free prime fund consent has been weakened. We looked at it a lot when it came to the destructive project. Then now with clean energy, it's sort of pushed aside and, and there is a lot more that could be done on it. I think we, what one thing we have to recognize is that free prime fund consent existed. And, you know, before even it was passed by, you know, it became a global principle and a global conversation. All our communities had free prime fund consent. How you access land, how you access grazing, how you access to shared what's a point was really through a principle of free prime fund consent. So if we see it from that perspective, I think it is supporting communities to continue and not see the engagement with projects, be they clean energy be they government projects as they put it from. So I think I feel that that's a first place to begin. And then also the change, I think because we think it's a green project, it's a, you know, good project that is a focus to reduce and say consultation consent and etc see you do communities really have a right to say no. And that's one of the main reasons because then we keep saying free prime fund consent. Some governments have signed on to it, many African global South governments have not signed on to it. But then we are never leaving communities to actually give consent, and the fact that because the projects are so timely because of some financing. We rush the process and sometimes the civil society come in and want to rush communities, because the consultation and the consent process within communities takes a longer time. Many of the organizations because we are now either doing working stakeholder engagement all these big terms, we want to rush the process and to okay the fact that free prime fund consent to place, but mostly doesn't. So I think that it is true, and we need to do better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, just to add to a call. There's actually a deliberate attempt by some groups to distort the substance and spirit of free prior and informed consent and reduce it to tick in the box kind of exercise as a simply a procedural matter, which is not the case right but because the keyword in the in the FPC is the consent. It's the consent that that communities have the right to say yes or no to a project as a collective decision, which is different from from consultation and that consent. It should be sought as a free and before any project starts and every prior and in and that the decisions are made through right information. And that's what it is that the consent that the decision so we have to discern really on on on on having a better understanding of free prior and informed consent. And the principle as well is that the final judgment on how this will be done are the communities that are exercising their right. It's part of their self determination, nobody can tell them how FPC will be done it's them to decide on how that will be undertaken, particularly in the way they they undertake their decision making processes and that takes time, because communities have to deliberate on the information provided to them on the pros and cons, and other considerations and and that is the right of communities to do so. That's the part of the of the FPC. So, so we need to really understand it from the perspective of the rights holders and not those wanting to reduce this as a mere exercise as a mere tick in the box exercise. So they can simply say that they have done it. John, actually, the next question is to you. But obviously it called you free to wait in as well. The question is how can you, if you could talk a little bit John about the lead to mining mining for green energy, which has, according to the spin list, this questioner wreck destruction on indigenous peoples in South America and now has come to Nevada, and he asks, when indigenous communities only suffer the consequences, not the benefits. What should help, what should happen then to help protect them and their land basis from further colonization. What happens when indigenous communities do not want exploitation of their land, but face powers bigger than them. And unfortunately, that's that's really the situation for many, many communities that we are, we are, we are, we, we face the powerful, right. By asserting our rights, we are challenging the powers that be because they have the economic interest to take over our resources as, and as Athena has mentioned, there is this this conflict right there's the interest are really different. So, so we are aware that we are basically fighting a giant. And that is where I think strengthening the solidarity across indigenous peoples across different countries, but also building alliances with human rights organizations, NGOs, and bringing the using the media building allies among the media and others is, is, is, is a way for us to challenge the, the, those powers and try to, to disrupt how they are using their power against us and that, and that the others will will stand by in defending our rights and by defending our rights to our lands, territories and resources we are actually also contributing to, to the sustainable use of resources for the common good we are preventing the control of corporations over these territories. So, so there are common, common interest with other groups that that we can unite in relation to protecting the, the lands and resources of indigenous peoples and I think that's that's really the power that we have, the numbers and the, and the cooperation and the solidarity that that we build is the power that we have against those powerful people with vested interest over our resources. And just to add on to that Fabio, I see a question here from Chennai, and which links to the conversation around tenure. Yes, we can have title to a land but do we own the resources that exist on our lands. And if we can expand the discussion on, we can just expand the discussion on land ownership and tenure to really, you know, the resources, because just as the question was asked, if then the local communities do not want extraction from their lands. Do they have a say if they if the state feels that they, they land is theirs but the resources are for the state. And how do we have that conversation I think really this this webinar and, and, you know, more webinars more conversations and dialogues around this topics are very critical. Beyond the just the securing tenure and getting title, yet the resources, you know, it's not just the land on its own, but the resources on the land is what the state wants it's what the corporations want, and do really do local communities do indigenous communities do rural populations have ownership of the resources on their lands. And that for me is a very critical discussion to expand on that way. We can negotiate from a place of knowing, because many times they say yes the land is yours but you know what's underneath is ours as the state or as public, or is, you know, that that discussion has also in many ways been used to fragment the narrative within communities, and that's what is then the elite come in and become the negotiators for for for communities, because they feel that well, since it can't stay here, somebody's got to benefit and mostly the elites from the indigenous communities are the ones who benefit from it. I have one more question. And I think it's a very interesting one for us to end on. It's a comment actually and then a question. The comment is, in Norway the semi have won a major victory at the Supreme Court, and some, some of the semi people are calling for the wind farm, which was constructed by violating their rights to be torn down. And he asks, how can this be navigated? Can the damage be undone? And what can we do when it's too late? Like, what can we do when the project is already there? It has caused the damage. But now, how can we compensate for that damage? I think it's a very interesting question. Joan, if you could start. Yeah, I think I've seen that and I'm quite familiar with that case. The decision of the Supreme Court was based on the civil and political rights and economic rights of the semi over their livelihoods. And that is in relation to the reindeer herding. And that is why the windmills are preventing them from doing their reindeer herding as a traditional livelihood. So now they are actually asking those windmills to be torn down so that the land can again be used as the grazing land for the reindeers. And that is still possible. That's why they want the windmills to be taken out so that they can restore the land as the grazing land of the reindeers. That's how I understood. And the windmills were built in 2020. So it's the physical obstruction of the windmill that is disturbing the reindeer herding. So if that's taken out, they can still rehabilitate the area and restore it back. I hope as a grazing land for the reindeer. So I don't think it's too late, as long as the windmills are taken down, that they are transferred somewhere else, that will not affect the Sami people. Because the Sami's are saying they are not against the windmill per se, as long as that those windmill are put in an area where it does not affect them in a negative way. And there are areas in Norway where out there, you know, it's a huge country that they can put the windmill and nobody will be bothered by it. So that's why they are surprised that how come they built it in the reindeer herding area when there are other options to build it. How do we fix when something has gone this wrong? Well, pollution pay is principal. So the person who set it up, it might not be pollution per se, but it is polluting the grazing areas of the Sami. So the company, all the participants who participate in the process of setting it up should pay and meet the cost of it. That would be my opinion, same to what Joanne is saying. People think that it is easier to move the usually poor peasant pastoralists, and in this case reindeer pastoralists, and set up the infrastructure. But the same infrastructure can be moved. So if it can be moved, I think it should be moved. And let the, you know, rehabilitate. So it's not only the moving. I think it should also the cost polluted pay principle should also be used to cost the reclamation of the grazing lands for the reindeer. Because it is not only, you know, someone might think what is reindeer. I think something that should be recognized as the Sami have a particular, you know, a sense of belonging and identity to the livelihoods that they partake in. And it is, it is important for all parties to see it that way. Fabi, I think you're on mute. So sorry, and thank you for noticing. So I was thanking everyone for the questions, and I'm sorry we didn't have the time to address all of them. We are moving to complete thoughts. If you could jump up a little bit. Have your final thoughts on this webinar and final thoughts on this issue. John, can you hear me. Oh, sorry, I did not know that I was off. Yeah. Sorry. No worries that you hear me or do you want me to repeat. It's basically. Yeah, yeah, I wasn't sorry. No, no problem. No, I just, I was just asking if you have any concluding thoughts about the webinar and about this issue that we addressed here. Okay, yeah. So, yes, I think this has been a very interesting exchange. And, and there's a lot of issues to to explore or to further get get into. But but I think it's it's really important to fully understand the issues around renewable energy and indigenous people, especially also how it relates to to land tenure to self governance of indigenous peoples, but also in relation to solutions to climate change under the just transition and in advancing the SDG is so I hope this this discussion is just an initial trigger to more discussions and more conversation around this this issue and and and I hope we will be be together in really advocating for the urgency to to recognize and respect the the rights of indigenous peoples especially in relation to land tenure as as an urgent issue and a matter of survival and dignity for indigenous peoples. Thank you. Thank you, John. Yeah, I think it is very important. This discussion on the energy transition renewable energies is looked at from an environmental ecological perspective. I think to really, really recognize and shift power to indigenous people and local communities we've got to look at it holistically and and and see the economic social political. Nexus that we all need to work with to ensure that it's not only about changing power, giving a little bit of free platform consent but it is really giving real power to indigenous people and local communities that they actually can be part of the decision making about what kind of design of energy they want, what mix of energy they want, but how they can also be part of the ownership of this because if you're not really owning this process, then mostly they are just consulted when there's a crisis, or when they come from you and I think it is important what Athena was saying, then the business communities, the owners of capital, the venture partnerships really need to look at ways that they genuinely engage indigenous people as partners, not as, you know, yes, as owners of the land but really partners in the enterprise that they want to build, and I'm hoping that we can continue to expand this conversation that looking at 10 you are beyond just the title, but really expanding as to how communities can own can can can do business with the lands and territories that you know we own and occupy in ways that are not only for now but really so that we can start to build that generational wealth for our for our children and children's Thank you, Kyle. Thank you everyone. So, and thanks to the other panelists who are not here, Athena and Marcelo. And thank to our hosts, the Ford Foundation, the Landmarker Foundation, the tenure facility in the Antonson Reifers Foundation. I hope it was enjoyable for everyone and interactively rewarding. Please note that recording of this webinar is going to be available in a few days. And please look out for the next iteration of the Land Dialogue webinar series on financing. Thank you, Kyle, that would take place in November. Thank you everyone.