 I think it's quite fitting that we go to the steakhouse then. There's a lot of foot traffic though, eh? All we do to animals is absolutely a porran, and it shouldn't be illegal though. Um, no, I don't think eating meat should be illegal. We're gonna have a chat lads. Come talk about it. It's murder. Should be illegal. You don't? Oh really? Good work. Oh, good cuisine. Here goes, I'm from Ethiopia. They've got an amazing vegan food there. Hey buddy, how you going? Yeah, good, how are you? I'm Joey. Jack, nice to meet you. Jack, nice to meet you, Jack. So you're overhearing the last conversation? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it sounded really interesting, so yeah, I saw the sign. Yeah, no worries. What did you think of the sign? The conversation about it. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I think it's definitely a big topic at the moment. Yeah. So I think it's worth talking about. Definitely. Where are you from, Australia? I'm from Australia originally. Whereabouts? Adelaide. Oh, okay. Yeah, I traveled there, it's a great place. Yeah, are you from here? London? Yeah, yeah, yeah, from London, yeah. So, I would like you to start off and tell me why I'm eating... First off, do you oppose or support the statement? I'd support it, however, I don't know if it's practical in terms of it being illegal. Okay. I don't know if it would happen. Yeah, so it's more like should happen rather than will. I'm talking about more in principle. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, you look at the videos and I think a lot of the public are quite ignorant to how it's actually created, you know, how it's put on the plate, but like the amount of business around the world, which they get their money around that, like I can't see big corporate companies making that transition because they'll lose a lot of money. Yeah, I agree with you there. I don't think they're going to change unless there's a big demand shift and something's some type of direct action that attacks them and forces them into change. But like the reason I'm saying it should be illegal is because we have fundamental rights protecting us and like if I went up and kicked a dog and killed that dog, you know, I'd probably go to prison for animal cruelty. If I went and assaulted anyone, there's laws protecting us basically for doing something that's inherently immoral. Animals are sentient, they feel pain, they suffer, they want to live. They're forcibly bred into this existence and then they're murdered and chopped up and sold into supermarkets. Consumer comes along and purchases that. That money goes straight to the slaughterhouse, goes straight to the animal agriculture and it fuels it, okay? So I'm saying if we made eating meat illegal on a grassroots level, on an individual level, that would definitely slow down what's going on because what would happen to demand, it would nearly completely halt here, especially in the UK. Yeah, well I think it's interesting because I think people should have a choice if they want to eat meat or not because it's been, people have been eating meat for a very, very long time. It's never been illegal in the UK, I'm pretty sure. No, it's never been illegal ever. Yeah, yeah, so I think that would, I think there would be a big fight back around it because people would probably say like if I want to, you know, they've been conditioned to think it's okay to do that. So that's kind of, it's all perspective end of the day. Interesting, we're forgetting someone else's perspective here. The victim's perspective. Yep, no. Do you think they should have a choice to live? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's an interesting one that. Because you're only talking about the, you know, consumer's choice. We're not talking about the victim's choice. It's true. I think it would be a good idea to make people more aware about how it's actually been made, what they're eating, because it might put people off. It's horrible, isn't it? Yeah, it's disgusting, man. Like if you see, yeah, you look at the footage and... I've got the footage here. Yeah. You know, this is called Land of Hope and Glory. Okay. A couple of friends of mine put this together. This is, you know, investigators get footage from UK farms. And, you know, this is a dairy farm here. They standard practice just to shoot bobby calves on their first day of life or shortly after birth because they're just not used to the dairy industry. I boycott these industries. This is tail docking, teeth clipping of newborn piglets. These are all standard practices. You can look all these up if you want to look up standard practice. They've got it all on there. Industry websites. You know, gas chambering of pigs. These are battery hens here. Free range hens are just in a big shed and, you know, a little bit more space and they're all murdered anyway. Yeah. It's not an ethical way to do it, how people are doing it, like trapping cages and all that. Like, I know some kind of meat is sold, but it's, you know, like free range, for example. So, like, they live happy, but maybe a quick death. They tell you they live happy, didn't they? They tell you they live happy, yeah. It's a propaganda machine we were talking about earlier. But these, you know, I look at this and instantly I just want to block it out like I do. And it's bad just to think that, right? Do you think most human beings would react the same to looking at this footage? Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't know how you can look at this and then think it's all good. Like, there's definitely... This is pretty standard. I've been into these sheds myself and you see, you know, chickens that can't reach the feeding trays and they're just suffering and dying like this all the time. I mean, there's just so many of them. Do you think, like, this kind of footage should be shown in schools to make kids aware or do you think it's too much? I think everyone should be made aware. But obviously this is an industry, isn't it? They're marketing these products to us so they're trying to make people comfortable about it. That's why you've got the RSPCA, you've got Red Tractor and all these places that are constantly being exposed. Let's just say their lives were free of suffering. Let's just say... But I don't believe that's true. Let's just say that that's true. In the slaughterhouse when they're being bolt gunned in the skull and hacked up into pieces. How can that ever be viewed as humane or moral? It can't be, but I don't think there's enough of a substitute for it. I think, yeah, well, I don't think... If my sister was vegan for a while and she's very conscious about what she eats, and I don't think it's... If I wanted to try a vegan diet, I wouldn't know enough about it to do it. I think I wouldn't know what to buy, what to replace with. So you think there's a practicality issue with people switching over, even if they knew that this was bad, there's a practical issue with not having enough options available? Well, it's just being conscious what you're consuming. And I think the problem is... Well, it's not a problem, but the challenge is if you wanted to be more conscious about this kind of stuff, it takes a lot more effort, right? A little bit more. You have to... A little bit more. It's a meter from the soy milk to the dairy milk. One meter. You've got to do a bit of research. You've got to know what you can buy, what you're not. And in the supermarkets, you've got to be aware about what's in what. Like, my sister has to look at all the ingredients and make sure, you know, things like that. You've got to look at it once, and then you know that one's vegan. There's a lot more resources than what you'd think, and it's a lot easier than what you'd think. I just think people just need to be motivated enough to take that chance and just... It's a bit of work at the start, but I think it's completely worth it, like... Yeah, I do. I do. And as well, like, I watched a documentary Before the Flood with Leonardo DiCaprio. I don't know if you've seen that. And he talked about how, like, cows, you know, they produce the most, like, a lot of methane. Methane, yeah. So it actually has a damage on the climate. I've got a statistic here from Cowspiracy Facts page, which you can verify here. It's, like, up to 51% due to livestock. I've seen lower numbers. But it's more than all transport combined when greenhouse gas emissions. By eating a plant-based diet, you can reduce your carbon footprint by 50%. Up to 91% of Amazon deforestation animal agriculture, growing soybeans to feed to animals to get a small morsel of meat. Water use, land use, resource use. Yeah, that's amazing. That's... those are amazing stats, and massive change could happen, right? So I know, like, for a pig, for example, I've heard it has, like, the same amount of consciousness as a dog. Is that right? They rank higher in intelligence than dogs. They're probably on par with a three or four-year-old child, scientifically. Right. What about chickens? Chickens have around the same... I think they might even be ranked... They're very intelligent chickens. Right. So I was just thinking that could be, you know, because I know chickens, for example, are less of, produce less CO2. And I know, like, you know, if Americans, let's say, stopped eating beef and just chicken, that would have a massive change. So I guess maybe even in terms of maybe not making meat illegal, but actually having a compromise. So you could actually ease people into it a bit more. Because I guess climate is not just in one go. I think it just wouldn't work at all. Yeah, so swap the cows out for chickens? I think... well, obviously, I think it's still bad for chickens, but I think... More chickens would be murdered. Yeah. Because more of them, they're smaller. But they're all getting murdered right now. So I think if it was a slower transition... Well, that's why I'm saying we should just make it illegal. All of it. What are you going to do? They'll lock you up, mate. You can't have your steak. Can't have your chicken. It's destroying the environment. You're robbing the lives of sentient animals. Do you think that making it illegal is the best way to teach people about it? Because, let's say drugs, for example, you know, it's illegal, but people do it anyway. And it's because they don't really... They see it more as a crime rather than, actually, it's not right, right? In some cases. Let's take drugs out of the picture, because that's more of a personal choice for me. I know that drug dealing has victims. Let's talk about child abuse. Child abuse is illegal, yeah? Yeah. Buying child porn is illegal, yeah? Yeah. It's victims involved in that consumer. Like, if you go and buy child porn, you're supporting child porn industry bad, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. I think that should be illegal. Well, I think, again, it comes down to the conditioning of the place. Like, so I know in, like, Japan or China, like, that's not as frowned upon as it is here, right? So, from what I've seen online... I think it should be illegal, personally. What's your personal view on that? Um, I think... My products are... I mean, yeah, dude, like, I think it's disgusting that these animals are getting killed. No, no, no, no, animals. I'm just applying the same logic that I'm using for making meat illegal, eating meat illegal. Right. I'm using that same logic in the application of, like, products of child abuse. So, like, child porn, for instance, I think that should be illegal. And I'm just saying, like, for the same reasons that should be illegal, should be the same reasons that eating meat should be illegal because it's abusive to animals, it's murdering animals, and it's destroying the environment. So, I think, like... I think there's a slight separation, because we're talking about humans, obviously, like, you know, that's who we are. We're humans. And so, I guess, sadly, I think we put ourselves first over animals, right? And what you're saying, if I'm right, is we should be completely equal with animals. No. No, I'm saying for the same reasons that we oppose products of child abuse should be... We should extend that to animals, not because we're exactly morally equal to animals in every way, but because they have many things in common with us. They suffer, they avoid pain, they value their lives, they value their liberty, they don't want to be abused, they're sentient. So, all of these reasons, I would say that they deserve at least fundamental rights, like the rights to bodily integrity and not to be enslaved and things like that. I'm not saying that you're morally equal to a chicken, but I'm saying the chicken possesses these values. Yeah, for sure. They've got some level of consciousness. It looks like it took it a toddler. Like a toddler. They run around, they're drooling, ma, ma, ma. Look at pig. A pig's not much different in mental capacity. They're, you know, the ability to perceive the world. I think another thing to think about is some people actually eating meat is actually a good diet for them, I feel. I mean, I don't have enough research, but I know with the Jordan Peterson's daughter is a real supporter for carnivore diet. And my sister, she's always been plant-based, but she's always very weak, so she's thinking about actually trying that to give her more strength. So if it's completely legal, it might actually affect some people in being able to get the kind of food they need. Jordan Peterson's daughter has no scientific evidence for her claims that a full meat diet is in any way healthy. She's talking basically off of anecdotal evidence only. There is no scientific support for her claims. When you talk about a plant-based diet, there's a body of nutrition professionals, about 100,000 of them, and they make up the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, and they brought out a peer-reviewed statement supported by 117 studies saying that a vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life, infancy, pregnancy, adulthood, even into your, you know, elderly years, if it's well-planned. So would you say that a plant-based diet can do everything which meat can do for the body? I'd say meat is the number one contributor to heart disease, just based on its saturated fat cholesterol content. It contributes to type 2 diabetes. It's doing the opposite of what healthy diets would do. Plant foods are full of antioxidants, fiber, nutrients, minerals. There's nothing in meat that we can't get from plants or from a B12 supplement, and that, you know, helps the environment too. I heard an alkaline diet that's really good. Have you ever tried that? I've heard about that. The only diet- Plant-based but alkaline. A whole foods plant-based diet is the only diet proven to reverse the number one killer, which is heart disease. So it's been proven in clinical study to reverse outflow sclerosis, hardening of the arteries, which is the number one killer of human beings. Yeah, well, I think it comes down to if there's going to be a change, it needs to be every individual has to be more conscious what they're consuming, right? But I think it takes time to change the conditioning of a place. Like, it does take time. So I guess really, I think just making it illegal, it just wouldn't work. It would have to be a slow process. Why wouldn't it work? I just think there would be uproar. There would be uproar. There'd be uproar. People would be like, no, this is wrong because they maybe haven't been educated. So practically, you don't think it would work? Let's just say, like, if it did work, would you think it would be a good solution? Let's just say it would, well, I think it would stop it nearly completely. Yeah, I mean, I can't see how it wouldn't make the world a- There'd be underground slaughterhouses, and they'd have to really do things in, you know? Yeah, no, for sure. I think at the end of the day, let's say it went illegal. There'd be more. Would you support it? Would you be like, fuck it, I'll just fucking try plant-based. Come on, yeah. If it was illegal, yeah, I'd give it a go, actually, to be fair. Like, if it was more like, if they put it in front of you and said this is happening, then I'd definitely give like a plant-based diet. If you go by a steak, you're going to get one month in prison. Right, well, the thing is, if it was illegal, then it means it would be easier to get the right kind of foods in terms of plant-based diet. Everywhere would be plant-based. It's hard not to eat meat right now, because it's- It's easy to, it's just everywhere. It's much more convenient. So you have to do a little bit- Like, here's one, convenience. Do you think convenience should justify this and this? Like, what we're doing to the earth and the animals? No. No, it shouldn't. But convenience is the way the world's going. Everything for instant gratification. You want things fast. Like, it's much more of an inter-convenience to be on your way to a slaughterhouse or for us not to have an earth to live on. Yeah, I agree. I agree. So at what point should the government go, right, this is it? Eating meat's illegal. It's illegal. At what point? Like, we're nearly there with the environment being irreversible the damage we're doing. Billions and billions of animals every 2.7 trillion, sorry, including marine animals every year murdered? They won't because there's too much of a high demand for meat. And I think the only way was if someone created their own economy, which kind of duplicated a mindset around that. Otherwise, I don't think they'd lose too much money. There'd be too much uproar. I can't see it happening unless, like I said, someone started their own economy around it. On an individual level, you can do something with the impact that you caused to the animals and to the environment, but the best, the single biggest thing you can do for the environment and to help animals and for your health is to eat a plant-based diet. If, you know, would you say your sister? Yeah, my sister. If she's lacking energy, she's not counting her calories right? Or it could be something to do with she's not absorbing certain nutrients. That I wouldn't say that's inherent to the diet. Yeah, I think the struggle she's had, I think she's lacked in certain minerals and I think that's just a case of her experimenting on what food she should eat to get. Chronometer is a fantastic app which tracks all your minerals. So I don't know how much she's eating because a lot of the time when you're tired, you're not eating enough because plant foods have calorie dilute. So increasing your dried fruits and your starches and I don't know exactly what she's eating, but I wouldn't write off the plant-based diet just based on that one anecdote there because the science is in full support of this way of eating stuff. Well, that's that. I'm sure there's so many people who debate around this, right? And they say, oh, you know, actually, meat can be good for you in some cases, but I guess, you know, the facts tell, right? We've got three things, environment, animals, and health. Well, that's it. I think that's massive. I'm big one for the environment. I think I definitely want to make my own individual impact there. And yeah, I mean, you look at these videos and it's horrible. But you know, it's easy for people to just get distracted with their own life and they don't see the bigger picture. So I guess maybe if it was illegal, then it would also mean that they'd have to be forced to change. They'd have to be forced to change, but there'd have to be some education around it as well because you can't expect people to stop having something without being... Without knowing why. Without knowing why. I think with all forms of activism, even direct action, there always should be education, which is what we just did here. If you made it illegal, you'd have to completely change the education process because kids would need to learn. You don't need milk for calcium. Yeah, yeah. Teaching our kids all of this. They're not showing kids this. But yeah, you know what, brother? Thank you so much for that chat. We really loved it. We let more of a debate to you, but no, I think it's a really good course. We were in agreement with most things, but I think we still covered a lot of things. I think it was great. Thanks a lot, brother. Joey Carbstrong, if you want to see. And challenge22.com. Challenge22.com. 22 Day Vegan Challenge. Try it. Okay. In a Facebook group, there are all a few of my friends run this organization. It's fantastic. Okay, cool. Give it a crack. I'll check it out, man. No worries, brother. Take care. We got three really decent debates. Conversate. I love talking to him then. What do you reckon? What should we call it?