 We are here this evening for the town hall meeting to discuss the draft education act. We would like to begin our meeting this evening with prayers. And so I would like to ask that we compose ourselves in a manner fitting for prayer as we invite the presence of the Holy Spirit in our meeting this evening. Heavenly Father, indeed we are thankful for today. We are thankful for having brought us through another wood day. We want to thank you for all persons who have been able thus far to join on to the meeting. We want to ask that this evening you would give us clarity of thought and clear understanding of the various amendments that would be done to the current Education Act. We ask you to bless everyone here this evening who are presenting the consultants on our meeting. And we ask you to bless the education sector in general as we seek to together look towards improvement for the betterment of everyone. All of this, we ask in your son's most precious name, Amen. Again, welcome to our meeting this evening. We are here to discuss the draft Saint Lucia Education Act. There are some amendments. The consultants will lead us on this. We know that the Act has been in existence since 2005. We've had revisions done. And even the current education climate, you have lots of things happening in schools and education sector in general. And so the time would be right for us to look to make some amendments so that we have a document which can better guide what happens in the education sector today. And it is with this in mind that I would invite our consultants who will be led, I think, on our team by Mrs. Cortina Antony-Husband. Welcome, Mrs. Antony and over to you. Thank you very much. I am Kay Clark, District Education Officer 7. It is indeed a pleasure to say sincere thanks to you on behalf of my teammates who will soon be given an opportunity to introduce themselves. But let me thank everyone, everyone who is here with us virtually maybe those who have met together at one of the centers we are asking you to share with us fully this evening. And as Madam District Education Officer said, let us work in the interest, let us listen to the amendments for the Education Act. Thank you. Next slide, please, Paula. For this evening, we have with us Mrs. Paula Cook-McKinnon and Dr. Monica William and myself, Cortina Antony. I think mostly everybody knows me except the younger generation, but I am a lifelong educator. So I will ask each of the team members, we have worked as a team for a number of years now. So I feel very comfortable that we are always meeting and sharing thoughts with you. So would Mrs. Paula Cook-McKinnon introduce herself? Let the person see your face, please. Good evening. Thank you so much, Mrs. Anthony. And thanks to all of you for being here this evening. This is an important discussion and we really appreciate the time that you've taken to be with us. As Mrs. Anthony indicated, my name is Paula Cook-McKinnon. I am the principal of Mind Bloom Consulting. And we have been working actively in the region for about 12 years now on various initiatives to support education. The members of the Mind Bloom team are dedicated to education and quite frankly in awe of the commitment that educators in the region and particularly related to this initiative demonstrate to every day to try and make education better for the learners. We look very forward to having you participate in this discussion this evening. Mrs. Anthony will give you some suggestions on how we might conduct the proceedings. But know that this evening is for you to hear your questions, to receive your recommendations so that we can continue to make this Education Act and the associated regulations something that you believe will serve you well in the advancement of education in the country. Thank you so much, Mrs. Anthony. Thank you very much, Mrs. McKinnon. I'm Dr. Monica William. Welcome. It's a pleasure to be here with you this evening. Like my colleagues, Fortuna and Paula, I want to express my gratitude for your presence here this evening. And this is your Education Act. And we look forward to hearing your voices, your questions, comments and suggestions for strengthening the act for the benefit of all St. Lucia students and educators and for society as a whole. So thank you again for being here. And I look forward to the conversation. Back to you, Fortuna. Thank you very much. Next slide, please, Paula. Schedule for tonight. We have started promptly at six. Thank you, Madam DO7. So we have had the welcome, devotions and introductions. We will be looking at the schedule, the purpose and the wrong rules for the meeting. Then I will go on to share with you brief description of the review that we have done thus far. And then I will give you an overview and discussion of the core features of the draft Education Act and regulations. We then move on to your priorities and hopes. Your priorities and hopes for the draft Education Act and regulations. I want to pause to repeat that. Your priorities and hopes for the draft Education Act and regulation. It is your education priorities. It is your Education Act. And I think I might just stray with permission and say our Education Act and regulations. Then we will have concluding remarks. When I hand back to Madam, I'm DO7. And then we will adjourn the meeting. Next slide, Paula. Meeting. What is the purpose of the Tong Hall meetings? We want to describe the review process and enhancement of the Education Act of 2005. We can calculate how many years ago that act has been used. We want to discuss the core features of the draft Education Act and regulations. For the first time, we have draft regulations. And those regulations will support the draft Education Act. For the first time in the history of St. Lucia, it is the regulations that will help to... Every educator, every parent, everybody interested in education to understand the two documents. We want to listen to your priorities and hope for the draft Education Act and regulations. What do you want? What would be your priorities? What have we seen? What have you seen? And what do you think is missing? We want to listen to you. And we have asked with your permission that we are recording because we want accuracy in the statement made. We will record your questions and the comments that you make. Every comment will be noted. We'll address the topics and issues raised in the Tong Hall meetings in validation and finalization of the draft Education Act and regulation. What we are saying here is after we have listened to you, after you have raised concerns, after you have made statements, after you have given us your priorities, we are not just going to close the recordings. We will be taking everything and we will be looking at what has happened because we are now in District 7. So that means there were six other Tong Hall meetings. We are meeting with every district and we'll be meeting with principals and we'll be meeting with every teacher that avails themselves to hearing and to speaking. And we will be listening and we'll be noting. And in the end, there will be a lot of analysis. We go back to the drawing board because we are stressing that this is a draft for both of the documents. The draft, we should have really put draft Education Bill because it must go through a legal process to become an Act and the regulations. Next slide, Paula. So for everything that we do, we want to be on the same page so we will have some ground rules. Your questions or comments are welcome. All your questions and comments are welcome. To give your comments, somebody said they can't hear a thing. Probably you need to log out and log in again. I suppose everybody can hear me. Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me please. Yes, good. Okay, so that person should log out and log in again. So if I was saying we need you to all your comments, suggestions are welcome. I will be chairing the meeting. The meeting will start and end promptly. Then the first part, comments can be placed in the chat box. If you look at the bottom of your device, mind says reaction, yours might say more. You click on it and you'll see raise hands and the sort of thing. Or you go to the chat box and you can write your comments in there. To speak during the meeting, please raise your hand and when acknowledged by a facilitator, state your name and share your question or comments. We are asking you kindly to consider three minutes because there are other persons who we would like to hear. And since time is limited, we would ask you to use the chat box if you have several questions, but if you will want to speak, we would ask you to comment in three minutes or less so that as many persons as possible would have a chance to speak during the meeting. We appreciate and respect all questions and comments and ask that you do the same. All questions and comments coming from anybody will respect yours, we would expect. You will respect another person's point of view. Next slide, please. The review started in February 2022. The St. Lucia Department of Education contracted the mind bloom consultant and St. Francis Xavier University to partner with St. Lucia educators in the review and enhancement of the Education Act. You know when the ministry puts out something, a consultancy, you have various groups bidding for it. They did not just call mind bloom consultant and St. Francis Xavier University. The process went through and as you can hear and as you know, this is the consultancy firms that warned a bid and an important word is the partnership. The consultants, we didn't come and just begun to write. We started to consult with all educators and all other relevant persons in St. Lucia. The review was undertaken because the existing Education Act is from 2005 and the department wants to ensure that the Education Act means the needs of a modern education system now in the future. And we go on, so from February 2022 up to the present time, extensive stakeholder consultations and research have been completed. I can recall that we sat as a team and we guided each other as to the number of organizations. So if my team members were not St. Lucia's didn't know that there was a group that was in existence. It was my business to say we have to add this group to be consulted with. So we went through this process and we started the consultation. I think if my memory serves me right, we reached out to the teacher's union, the principal association, the NPA and we started consulting with educators and other persons. Based on the findings of the consultations and research, we did not just limited to St. Lucia but my colleagues, for example, Dr. Williams did a lot of research looking at regionally what is happening internationally, what is happening because the long-term goal was to provide solutions with the best possible Education Act and regulation. A draft was prepared in March 2023 at every stage. It is shared with the Ministry of Education. We receive feedback from them and with us this evening we have the lady herself from the Equip Department Ms. Immanuel who has been with us every night so I say welcome to you Ms. Immanuel and thank you very much in here and she has shared the link where you can download if you have not yet done so the Education, the draft Education Act and Regulations. So multiple stakeholders provided feedback on this draft. When we sift through all that we had done, more than 700 suggestions were received, reviewed and acted upon to create the revised draft Education Act and Regulations that we are now discussing. Now Mrs. Kenan, Dr. Williams and myself are not lawyers. So there is also a team member, Mrs. Kim Centrose who is a draft person because the Education Act is not just written. It has to have a skilled draft person and it has been what she's been doing. Whenever we got back suggestions we would have to go back to the drawing board until we reach this stage. At the end of every consultation our final words always were if you have more to say you can send in your comments, your remarks to Ms. Immanuel and I'm sure she has posted the email address or to Mrs. McKennan who is the principal person that comments Ms. Immanuel would send comments. She very early in the consultative process emails were shared and persons were sending remarks to us. So then Ms. Immanuel has shared us equipprojectslu.com Next screen please. Brief description of the review. Tong Hall meetings are being held across St. Lucia to provide members of the public with a description of the review of the Education Act and the progress achieved to date. The equipment department has had advertisements on television, on NTN inviting everyone, as my rector would say, to the moon to come and attend. The link has not changed. So anybody who has an interest in education has been invited to come and raise their voice while we listen and while we make comments and while we ask our drafter after we have gone through the many comments what is relevant and to make the necessary changes. So the access to the Education Act, the draft Education Act and Regulation are informed as you would know in the chat where Ms. Immanuel has posted it and it is an opportunity to contribute to the validation and finalization of the draft Education Act and Regulation. Hopefully I dare say have read through. It is not a small document. I know but it has been expanded. I think the original one 2005 was 117 pages. This one is more because we have done a lot of explanations. We have expanded the language because persons in our earlier consultation were saying that reading the 2005 Act was a bit difficult. So now is the opportunity. So what significant changes were there from 2005? I do not know how many persons have a 2005 but today I did something going back to the 2005 and comparing it to what we have presently. The significant changes is that we have a new student-centered vision for education for inclusion. Education is about the learners, the children, the vision. We met with the Minister of Education and his management team, his high-powered team and looked at what the vision was and the vision from all indications is child-centered one. We expanded definitions and updated the language. I think I noted somewhere that we had just about in the 2005 about 22 definitions and when I checked how many definitions we have in the new one, I think it must be about something like 86 or 88 definitions. We have added because from our earlier consultations, persons were saying this was not put in, that was not in there and they were asking. And again, when we went through, we saw the common threads that the number of consultations persons were asking for and that was done. The language was updated so this present draft act is more reader-friendly. There is a focus on holistic education that supports student learning and well-being. We'll list every aspect of the child, not just the academic. This is concerned about the mental wellness, the physical wellness of the child as well as educators. Educators, the teachers, the principals, et cetera, et cetera. And we have been hearing. Last night we were hearing somebody saying what can be done is a spa, free spa for teachers and students so that they can distress. There is universal access to education, free tuition and protection from discrimination. Every child is entitled to go into school and the education must be free and they must be able to access and the necessary changes needed to help this child fulfill his or her full potential is taken care of in the present draft act. New consoles on special education. There was a UN cry over and over. That special education and inclusive education was not given sufficient priority. So I think in the act there is a lot and in the regulations you can literally see how many more questions there are to special education and inclusive education. The new national code of conduct is there to support the draft, in the draft regulations to support the education, the draft education act. It speaks of standards of behaviors, appropriate dress, what are the different behaviors that will be addressed by the principles, the consequences. It speaks about generally how we make schools safe and a better place for all children. The new street school age is from 3 to 17 years and this includes early childhood education which we always know is from 3 to 5 years. The new draft act gives authority for educators to discipline students and protect safety and security of students. So when we look through, you will see that there are different sections that speak of what a principal or teacher can do. There is clearly defined rights, duties, powers and responsibilities. Next slide please. So let us look at an overview of the draft education act. I do not know how many of us present here have had a chance to look at it, but it is divided into a number of sections and each section has a number of content. We are having some difficulties. Hello, thank you. So we have the preliminary section which we call the long title and it has all the definitions that we thought was relevant and it speaks of the purpose of the act. Part one speaks of the administration of the education system, the duties and powers of the minister. This stem around it gave you duties and powers of the permanent secretary that was never in the education act. The chief education officer, the education officers, we heard you. So you are there and the education advisory board. The stages of education in part two and the types of schools, the stages of public schools, the types of education, registration and operation of schools, home schooling, and inclusive education. These are all spelled out in this section. Part three gives you the rights and responsibilities of students and parents. The universal access to education, free tuition, right to appropriate education. Appropriate is the critical word here. Student accountability, the rights and duties of parents. I see a question. Ms. Arsid, could you hold on to the questions? Thank you. They will be read and answered. Part four, admission, attendance and records, compulsory school age is also listed. Admission to schools, zoning of schools, student transfers, how do you do that? Student attendance, how a registrants kept student attendance officer, how does he operate? And school records. What are the school records? We also put in the draft regulations, some forms as just templates that can be considered. Part five, the national curriculum, instruction and assessment of students is all in there. Inclusive national curriculum, what are the core subjects that will be taught at key and what are the key stages of assessment? What is balance assessment as against student assessment? What is collective worship? And religious education is there because we know that we have denominational schools. Six, the management of school. Technical and vocational education, training councils is there. Student council is given prominence because we believe that every child has a voice. Parent-teacher community associations. This is new because a lot of the stakeholders wanted members of the community to have a voice and to sit on the parent-teacher association. So this has been renamed. Part seven, the national code of conduct, school rules and discipline. A lot has been said on that. There is a national code of conduct and you find that in the regulations, the disciplinary responses to student misbehavior, suspensions. We spoke about in-house suspension. We spoke the language for behavior issues. We want to keep it very positive. So there is nothing like corporal punishment, but we have given different forms of positive ways of disciplining a child. The principles have been given by the authority to search and seize. Somebody says very early, and we have heard it throughout all the six districts, things have changed, behaviors have changed, and we want to save God everybody. The right to appeal a disciplinary response is also given. If a parent feels things are not going their way, they have a right to appeal, but there is also a procedure to be used. Part eight, the rights and duties of educators. The rights of educators, duties of principals, the rights of educators, educators have been defined. And the duties of principals, vice principals, teachers, and school guidance counselors is included in this draft act. Nine looks at the St. Ruscha Island Scholarship, the value of scholarship, what qualification, examinations for scholarships, the forfeiture of scholarships, bonding of scholarship recipients, the awarding of grants and groceries. When we look at this section, you will see in the act that the minister and cabinet has a right if they feel to award more than one and how many in the year, and this is not for us. We cannot say to the government, you must give 10 or 20 scholarships. That is not our duty. Part 10 appeals, education appeal tribunal will be set up, the regulations and procedures for appeals are spelled out. Messellinias, the annual reports, contagious diseases, this is something it spells out and there is collaboration. Who do we consult? Who is the authority on that? And I'm sure a lot of us have learned from COVID and even the present day, the flu. What are the regulations? How should schools behave? How should parents behave? The closure of school, who closes school? What is the procedure for that? Loitering on school compound? Or school and premises? Insurance, vendors on school premises? Do we just allow them in without any rules, regulations and et cetera, et cetera? Prohibitation or sale of alcohol? And as we did those alcohol and drugs? Resicution, regulations and repeal and savings. As we did that, we did not just look at the Education Act. I want to just put this in here. We use the law as a reference to our labor. We looked at the constitution of the land. We looked at the alcohol, you know, policies, laws so that we were guided. So this was not done in isolation of what is the law of the land. Next slide, please. We have now reached the point where we need to hear your voices. Any comments? Any questions? As I said earlier, you either raise your hand or one of my colleagues will assist and read the, I noticed we have about nine or 11 questions so far. So I will pause. You will not only hear my voice. I will call upon the expertise when I cannot answer questions on the expertise of one of my team members. First question, please. So in the chat, there's a question about that asks, why are teachers not considered as part of administration? Teachers are not part of the administration of the ministry of education because within the ministry of education, there is a hierarchy. Those who administer. Monica, do you want to add to this? Thank you for Chuna and thank you for the question. It's a great question. Teachers are not considered part of administration because in the act, we describe system administrators and school administrators and they are persons who have been appointed to formal leadership positions within the education system. And so they are in those formal leadership positions and that's why teachers are not clustered together with school administrators or system administrators. Do you have a hand up? Go ahead, Ms. Thornhill, I think. Ms. Thomas, please go ahead. Oh, thank you. I noticed loitering on school premises was part of, I cannot remember which part it was, but does it speak to whether students can be sent home once they have completed exams? For example, students have different times. The exams finish at different times. So can they be sent home if they are finished with the exams instead of loitering around the school and being disruptive to others who are actually doing the exams? It's in operation. It's a school policy that, and that is mostly with performers. If I'm correct, if I'm not, please tell me. I'm not in the classroom for a long time now. And parents are very much aware of the timetabling that students have. And most times schools, those students are requested after their exam that they are free to go home. I know it's inexistent for performers right in CXC. I do not know if there are other policies within the school which allows a child to be sent home or to remain on the school compound. Or if the child remains on the school compound, it is expected that they are not disruptive and they are not seen to be loitering, that there will be some place where they will remain. Monica, Paula, would you want to add to that? Thank you, Fortuna. With regard to the question on loitering, that's section 201 of the Draft Education Act. And in answer to your question, it does not specifically address students staying at school after they finish their exams. However, in the Draft Act, there are responsibilities of students including student accountability. And so in terms of accountability, they are responsible to a teacher for their conduct on the school premises during the school day and during extracurricular activities. They're also accountable to the principal, accountable on the bus, et cetera. So if a teacher directs a student, the student is to follow the direction of the teacher in general, but there's not specific reference to exams. Thank you. So does that mean that the school can decide whether the students stay or not? Yes, I would think that the school, if a child remains and is not disruptive, they can remain at the school, you know? And to make sure that the child is safe. We also, in 201, you know, it speaks about the loitering as the Williams has mentioned, and it speaks mainly, we didn't see students as loitering, but it speaks to persons who loiter and wonder or trespass on the premises of the school. This is in the bill, the Education Draft Education Act, you know? If I might add to that, in the proposed National Code of Conduct, it is recommended that the school community come together to understand the National Code of Conduct, and that includes students, teachers, parents, anyone who is involved in school. And the idea is that together, the community decides what is and is not acceptable behavior. By inference, loitering is considered to be disruptive. However, having a student on the compound doing something productive or waiting, but not acting in any disruptive way, it could be seen by the community to be a positive thing. Of course, you want students to be on the premises to participate in extracurricular activities, to assist others, perhaps through peer, group sorts of work on their academic programs. So it is really up to the community to set those standards and to set those guidelines for positive behavior. We thought in terms of the Code of Conduct, leaving it to that positive approach and to have everyone understand the expectations for the creation of a positive learning community gives everyone in the community an opportunity and a voice to create those types of guidelines. Thank you very much, Mrs. McKenon. And I hope that answers your question. And I think it just gives educators an opportunity to see the benefit of coming together with the community members and creating some of the policies that would help strengthen school community relationships. Thank you. Next question. We'll take one hand up, and then we will go back to the questions. Lydia, shall I mind your question, please, or comment? Thank you. Good evening, everyone. Quick observation under the zoning. I think, Shadyu, too, view for zone, VFOR comprehensive secondary is missing. Instead, a school is put in twice. But I'm calling about the absence of further education. I'm representing the sixth format VFOR comprehensive. We're the only secondary school with a sixth form on the island. Two sixth forms, lower sixth than upper sixth, and the act does not speak to that. And we experienced quite a few complications during COVID where pronouncements and policies were being instituted for secondary schools and for South Elvis Community College. And our section was just not addressed. And always, there was a lot of confusion created. And the minister would have to come back later on to make a special announcement. So I noticed throughout the act, there is no reference to further education. And that is the non-compulsory secondary education between university, between higher education, tertiary education and secondary education. The only reference to the CAPE, which is the program that we do in the act seems to be what qualifies students for the island scholarship, the examination for the island scholarship. I also noticed that there is an absence of support staff for teachers. There is no mention of substitute teachers or monitors or anything else. And I know from what's happening on the ground in our school, oftentimes if a student is having an issue, especially a student with a special disability, there is no place to take the student. And there is nobody who can provide the supervision because teachers have their contact time with the rest of the class. And I don't think the education act speaks to that at this time. And I think it's really, really necessary in 2023 to have that kind of support staff and to recognize and acknowledge the further education stage within our education system. It's not putting it, it makes them... A lot of the times we're just forgotten and the resources that we need to operate are not allocated for. Thank you. Thank you very much. Monica, would you want to comment on that? Yes, thank you, Mrs. Anthony. Thank you very much for the question. It's a very important aspect of education. And with your reference to sixth form, you're correct. It's not included in the description of the national curriculum, the national secondary curriculum and the regulations. So we will note that and look at that. However, in the act, we have added continuing education. We've also added alternative education for students who require different pathways and perhaps extra time to complete secondary school. The alternative education is a new addition to the act. We've also added for the first time an extended school age for youth from ages 18 to 20. So the compulsory school age is three to 17 years, but we recognize that some students require extra time to complete secondary school. And in the definitions at the start of the act, you'll find that extended school age for youth aged 18 to 20 years. So we will certainly look at the sixth form and we couldn't agree with you more that some students require those extra supports and we will look at that. Regarding support staff, this has been raised previously in the town hall meetings that there isn't specific reference to support staff in the act. And thank you for flagging that. That's another area that we're looking at. So you raised really important points and thank you for the questions. Thank you very much. Dr. Williams, I think yes indeed. It was not raised as support staff, but it was raised as assistant teachers. So we have made notes of that and thank you ever so much. Questions in the chat? Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Thank you. There's a question in the chat. Good evening to all. Thank you so much for including us in this discussion. I noticed that children are expected to be in school by the age of three. Will provisions be made to ensure that all our little ones get a chance to attend preschool? I just need to push it down. The reality is that many parents cannot afford preschool. Many parents cannot afford to pay $700 per term to have children educated at a preschool and that is cheap. So the question is, will provisions be made to ensure that children can attend preschool from the age of three? Can I just give a short of that as we are aware that government has started to create what is called the pre-case at schools where the populations were low and they have started in some of the neediest areas and communities. So we are hoping that this is an indication of the intention that all children will eventually, there will be universal early childhood education as we have said in the draft act. I think if I might add to that, Mrs. Anthony. Go ahead. We have to be cognizant that the ministry cannot immediately fund everything that is suggested in the act. But what we are trying to capture in the act is the vision for education that will take us from 2023 forward over the next decade and perhaps farther. And we know that it is the intention to have access to education from age three to 17 and that that process has started and that as tax dollars become available in the government budget, the intention is to continue to expand that. But it will not happen instantly. That's right. Very correct. Thank you. Mrs. McKenna. Next question. There's a lot here. Okay. And the next question is, are provisions made for homeschooling? I think I will allow Dr. Williams to answer that. She has done a lot of work on that. Over to you, Dr. Williams. Thank you very much, Mrs. Anthony. The answer is yes, provisions are made for homeschooling in the draft act and in the draft regulations. And this is an area where we heard from many St. Lucians that they were looking for more guidance and more structure around homeschooling. So if you look at section 50 in the draft Education Act, you will see provisions for homeschooling described, including a process for parents who wish to homeschool their child to apply to the office of the chief education officer. The educational plan has to be spelled out for the child and has to be aligned with the national curriculum of St. Lucia. And also we've made provision for periodic inspections of homeschooling programs. So all of these things are spelled out starting in section 50 of the Act. And there's also some further detail provided in the regulations. Thank you for the question. Thank you very much. Next question, please. The next question says, good evening, is there a section of the Act that would speak to the rights of teachers? Mrs. Anthony, if I might respond to that, I actually have that section right in front of me. Go right ahead. Thank you. So one of the things that is suggested is proposed for the new Act is that educators be considered as a group for having rights. Teachers, teachers, vice principals, principals, guidance counselors all have rights as part of the Education Act. So section 175 describes the rights of an educator and that speaks to the rights of teachers, vice principals, principals, and guidance counselors. So yes, there is a section that speaks to the rights of teachers and it is expanded to include teachers and their colleagues at the school level. Dr. Williams, anything you wanted to add there? No, that's fine. Thank you. Thank you very much. Let me just say I will encourage everyone on the platform here, 149. If you have not yet taken time, download that draft Act and don't do like me, try to compare what's in the old one to this present one because it would be quite a bit, but it is very, very interesting to have a good knowledge. It will take some time to have a good knowledge. Let's go again as we guide you through. Next question, please. Thank you. Learning search and seizure. Would there be some form of insurance or protection for principals, vice principals, and teachers? Under the regulations, it is well spelled out. Monica, go right ahead because I know you can just flip through. Thank you very much, Mr. Anthony. With regard to search and seizure, we've had a number of questions about this new feature in the draft Education Act. I just want to provide a bit of background on why it's there. We heard from many St. Lucians that they're concerned about violent behavior on school grounds and about the safety and security of the students and the staff at school. And we also heard from educators that they didn't feel they had the authority to act in an emergency situation where there was a threat to the safety and security of students or staff. And so the search and seizure provision was added to the draft Act in response to those concerns and requests. We have not discussed insurance with regard to the principals, vice principals, or teachers. I'm noting that. What we have discussed and what has come up in previous town hall meetings is the need for a policy to spell out the procedures for search and seizure and to address questions like insurance. So thank you for raising the question. We are noting it and we'll add that to the discussion on search and seizure. Thank you very much, Dr. Williams. And for reference, I think this is on power of search and seizure. 170. The cost is on section 171 of the draft education bill. So we have taken it on whatever we have not addressed. We have noted down. Next question, please. I'm just... There we go. Will there be assistance given to families to put children in preschool or will they be placed in a pre-kindergarten at infant school? Please let me answer that and say, as a consulting group of persons, we will take down your thoughts but we cannot say to the government what they have to do. That is not within our mandate. Next question, please. Will children with special needs like ADHD be given assistance at mainstream schools? Monica, go right ahead. Thank you for the question. And we heard from many Saint Lucians about the need to strengthen the supports for students with special needs. And so in the Draft Education Act, you will find certainly more attention to special needs education and inclusive education. And that starts at section 53 of the Draft Education Act, where we've added a new council on special needs education and inclusive education to advocate for students with special needs and to provide leadership in enhancing the education of students with special needs and promoting inclusive education. So that's one form of assistance that we've put in there. The other things with regard to mainstream schools is that we're recommending that to the extent possible children with special needs be educated with their age peers in mainstream schools. Now, some children have needs that require the programming and services in special education schools. But we are recommending whenever possible that the children be taught in mainstream schools with support. So we have made that statement about the least restrictive environment in the new Draft Education Act. We have also updated the description of special needs in the Draft Act. We've updated the language. It was outdated. And we've talked about the provision of individual education plans and accommodations for students with special needs. So those are some of the supports that we've addressed in the Draft Act. Thank you very much, Dr. Williams. And if I may just add as persons go through they will notice that there are various sections, the procedures for determining determination of special needs. Appeal against discrimination. The Committee on Special Needs Education how do they operate? So this Division 3 starting from Section 53 is very well defined. It is extensive. And anyone who is interested or think that they need to understand it more should go back and read the specific section because I am sure some of us might have special areas of interest. So I'm encouraging you after tonight to take a little time. Next question, please. The decision that has been taken in terms of student loitering the Act has to speak to the authority of the principal in that regard. Dr. Williams the does the my recollection is that under duties of the principal in Section 176 it does refer to the authority for sort of managing behavior on the school premises. Is that correct? Yes. Under the duties of the principal in Section 176 part of the duties and there it is a long list D is to maintain order and discipline in a school or during an activity sponsored or approved for the school and I'm just looking down here to see if there's anything more specific to loitering. Maintain good order and administer disciplinary response to a student in a school is double a so there are those references in the duties of the principal to maintain good order in the school and that the student has to follow the direction of the principal. That's under the student accountability section as well. Thank you. Next question, please. I did not hear anything regarding ancillary staff and their presence and I believe that actually the national code of conduct refers to everyone in the school community it isn't restricted to just students and so that does cover ancillary staff in the schools if that's what is intended in terms of question that came from the government of St. Lucia live if not please let us know and we'll respond because we've made an assumption there with regards to the section that speaks about student suspensions a student can be suspended if he or she refuses to be immunized won't parental consent be required for the immunization of the child this has been raised in other consultations so far and we believe that we do have to take another look at immunization and the guidelines for that I don't know Dr. Williams if there's anything further you would want to say about that no that is a question that we're looking into at present that's right we would have to look and speak with Ministry of Health CMO and be guided the next question this is a comment it is customary that secondary students may leave the premises after exams however I do not think this is established policy I think there must be clear policies on this we would we would suggest that that policy would be it certainly could be something that is developed nationally or it could be something that is developed on a school by school basis that would be extend beyond the act but would be something that the Ministry might want to consider in consultation with educational leaders district education officers and principals and I think we also encourage that's where the parent teacher community association what is it because parents would need to know or to recommend and as you said there will be need for persons to sit and develop either through the Ministry one general policy but we know with regards to our geographical location of schools probably schools might wish to sit with their various stakeholders and develop a policy in keeping with the act the convention of the rights of the child and taking into consideration other legal documents next question Paula the next question says does the act speak to LGBT content many parents are concerned about their children being exposed to certain content just asking the the act doesn't refer to specific content if you will in terms of educational content or in terms of what qualifies as inappropriate content in terms of electronic access and I will ask Dr. Williams as the significant work on the regulation so I will ask her to come in here in terms of educational content there is a process for the review of educational material textbooks and that sort of thing that would be done to ensure suitability for use in the schools in terms of access to electronic information for the first time in the regulations existed before and in the Code of Conduct there is there are included in misbehavior are things like cyber bullying and bullying actually to guide and it's defined so that it guides educators and students and members of school communities around what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior Dr. Williams is there anything that you wanted to add there Thank you Mrs. McKinnon with regard to the national curriculum as Paula has pointed out it doesn't speak to specific content in the Act in the regulations in Schedule 5 beginning on page 23 you can look and see the subjects that are offered in primary school and secondary school in the different grades and forms and that particular content is not referenced Thank you I'm just I'm just pulling down Is there any section in the Act that speaks to improvements in school security Anyone Shall I start So Yes that is a significant component both in the Act and in the regulations and the proposed Code of Conduct and the Code of Conduct actually is aimed at creating a positive as I mentioned a positive school environment that is pure for all and if an educator believes that the school is threatened in any way in terms of safety and security that is where the section on search and seizure comes into play so that educators feel that they are supported and this we heard early on in our consultations I think it was in September or October of 2022 when we met with the leaders from the St. Lucia Teachers Union they were very concerned about teachers and their security and the authority that they had in terms of managing security within the schools and this had stemmed from their belief that regulations were very important and that if we could guide and provide some support in terms of creating safe and secure environments it would be welcome and so we've endeavored to do that and that's what's included in the regulations and the Code of Conduct specifically Yes on the section 170 it tells it speaks of the principal and vice principal or teacher shall seize an illegal weapon an item that is prohibited by the National Code of Conduct of Schools and then it goes on to speak about the obligation to report to the police a principal, vice principal or a teacher or police, a student who commits a criminal offence on school premises or while the student is under the control of a teacher or an employee at the school so the partnering, the partnership we know the act is very very concerned about safeguarding and it's not safeguarding just of the students but teachers everyone including ancillary staff at the school so it is right there Next question please Since this is a consultation will there be further sharing and consultation to inform on why certain issues that are raised today do not make it into the act I can tell you in terms of our next steps we are as Mrs. Anthony mentioned in the outset we are actually tracking comments and making note of things that we would recommend be changed based on your input and also if there are suggestions that we would recommend not be changed then we would note the reason why and I can give you a couple of examples of instances where suggestions have been made and we are not certain subject to a legal opinion of whether or not they should be in the act. One is when suggestions are made that actually are covered in another act for example the teaching service the act that gives the teaching service commission its authority and it is the education act we want to make sure that the education act and the teaching service act actually are aligned and there isn't repetition between the between the two and also on occasion there have been suggestions that certain terms need to be should be defined in the education act and we have learned a great deal as educators we have learned a great deal in the drafting practices and the drafting practices actually indicate that if a term has a common meaning for example something like free tuition would have a common meaning then it is not necessary to define it in the in the act so sometimes actually we made suggestions ourselves about terms that should be included we thought in the act and then the drafter said well we all know what that means so there is no need for it to be included in the definition and the intention of the drafter is actually to make sure that the act is clear and concise and not unduly long so that persons can use it easily as a reference thank you very much Mrs. Mochanan is there any other questions or yes is there anything in the act pertaining to the rights and responsibilities of parents in relation to their children's general education, school visits exposure to the school curriculum etc if I could speak to that please Mrs. McKinnon and Mrs. Anthony yes there is a section of the act that describes the rights and responsibilities the rights and duties of a parent and beginning with section 83 for example the child of compulsory school age is required to ensure that the child attends school regularly and punctually also another duty of the parent is to communicate and collaborate with school personnel in the delivery of the education of his or her child also parents have rights they have entitlements they have the right to be informed of the progress behavior and attendance at school and with regard to school visits in section 83 E it states that a parent is entitled reasonable notice to the principal and teacher to observe the instruction of the student if the visit does not impede the instruction of another student so starting in section 83 and continuing on to sections 84 and 85 they do describe in the act the rights and duties of parents and thank you for the question because parents are so important in the education system in the lives of their children and we really wanted to highlight their involvement in the draft act next question please thank you yes there's more it's wonderful to see these comments my apologies my screen just jumps a bit will provision be made in the act to address mental health of teachers and principals there isn't specific provision made in the act to address the mental health of teachers and principals with regard to students we have added mental health challenges to the list of special needs and we've also added a section we haven't discussed yet tonight at the start of the act on the provision of educational psychosocial supports and some of those supports would certainly be for students with mental health challenges including counseling services multi-tiered systems of support and also listed under the educational psychosocial services are things like social work service positive behavior intervention and support etc so we haven't referenced it with regard to teachers and principals but we have with regard to students thank you thank you very much and we have noted next question please is there a section on automatic promotion as it is now students move from one grade to the next although some of them have learning disabilities and challenges no there is no specific but I'm sure there is a section that speaks to the appropriate level of education am I correct Paula I'm sorry go ahead Dr. Williams were you going no go ahead please Paula okay the act actually speaks to ensuring that there is education for all and actually talks about inclusive practice and ensuring that that learners receive education regardless of what level of school that they are in but it does not speak to policy because that would be a policy with regard to automatic movement through the grades automatic promotion I think is the way that you've put it very good question thank you next question next question is concerning the use of force section what qualifies as reasonable force in the event there is an injury in the use of reasonable force to a student what redress does a parent have likewise if the injury occurs to a principal vice principal or teacher what form of compensation redress will be afforded to this person is there any provision for any of these in the act section 171 speaks about use of force by the principal vice principal or teacher but it references students I do not think we have addressed fully but I believe that reasonable force is defined that's what I was looking for the definition because we did have significant discussion about what is reasonable force and there is a definition for reasonable force and accepted definition in terms of the event of an injury an injury can occur on school premises for several reasons two students might have some kind of an encounter that results in an injury and so there are processes we believe in place for that redress we have noted the question about insurance for teachers and vice principals in cases where there might be an instance where they have used reasonable force and in some way been injured and we've noted that and we will look at following up on that as we review the comments from these town hall sessions and thank you so much for that question for highlighting this for us are there plans to modify exams to accommodate students with learning challenges in the inclusive setting the education act does speak to ensuring that all students have the ability to basically reach their are supported in reaching their full potential in the education system and in terms of that that we in the in the act there's reference to balanced assessment and to ensuring that assessment aligns to allow the students to respond as in the best way possible so that we again while the act talks about the principle of inclusive practice and balanced assessment it is presumed from that that there are accommodations made and actually the act does speak to accommodations to ensure that their students learning needs are met the other thing that we believe will be very helpful to advancing what is suggested with this question is the new council for special education needs and inclusive inclusive education that group will actually their charge is to ensure that they that they respond to the needs of students that the system responds to the needs of students and having that group in place is going to help and I believe tremendously and I think from the feedback that we've received stakeholders in St. Lucia believe that that group will actually have the will add a great deal in terms of a voice to ensure that students are supported in their learning and that the needs of students are met to further develop the system of education in a manner that is as inclusive as possible and there's a follow-up question here the question was about LGBT content not about electronic material still not clear about the LGBT content and whether the act will speak to this would understand that with the detailed review of definitions after there would be clarity regarding this manner please clarify again as a response was not clear thank you so much for coming back with that clarification the determination of the content educational content is at the discretion of the minister that's how the act describes it we cannot we do not believe that it is the purview of the education act to determine other than as Dr. Williams has said to describe what is part of the national curriculum it is then incumbent upon the education professionals those leading education to determine what content is included in the curriculum and what is used to support teaching and learning so there is all kinds of content that education professionals make determinations about including subject matter age appropriateness trying to think of the right term what might be considered content that is would be disturbing in terms of violence or something like that that is left to educators to decide as they are the experts in that area and if I may add that the curriculum units health and family life curriculum officers would look through material to make sure that the age appropriates for the students but again as you rightly said the minister will determine what goes on I suppose with consultation but I know this is a subject area that many teachers and parents are concerned about so thank you very much for this important question next the next question is what is in place in the case that parents or students attack teachers verbally or physically well go ahead Dr. Williams thank you Mrs. McKinnon that is an excellent question as I mentioned earlier we have had a lot of concerns at school and there are different references to this issue for example in the national code of conduct and the regulations on page 43 there is a very clear description of physical violence inflicting bodily harm or injury on another person that is prohibited and also on page 44 verbal abuse demeaning, threatening, insulting or distressing or profound language against a person including swearing at a student or an educator in terms of responses in the act in section 164 a student can be suspended for different misbehaviors including misbehavior that endangers a student another person school property, student transportation security in terms of what is in place very clear descriptions that this is prohibited under the national code of conduct this behavior is not acceptable and one of the responses can be suspension of the student there is also in extreme cases under section 167 of the draft act provision for expulsion of students so those are some of the measures that are in place and thank you for the question again this is a concern that has been repeatedly raised next question is since disability and poverty are inextricably linked does the government plan to assist families financially that would be something beyond the purview of the education act because the allocation of resources are a government budgetary responsibility thank you for the question there is no question that disability and poverty are linked but it is not something that would be or we believe would be contained in the act next question please one duty of the teacher is to attend staff meetings the act does not speak to what time the meeting should be held at this time some principals decide to have staff meetings at 3 p.m our teachers mandated to attend these meetings at this time as this is not a teacher's contracted work hours I am certain that that has been raised during this consultation and it is something that we are looking at Dr. Williams did you want to respond thank you Mrs. McKinnon yes in section 178 part P the duties of a teacher is to attend a staff meeting and this question has been raised before so we are looking into it the other thing here we have talked about the intersection between the education act and other laws like the teaching service commission legislation or liquor control legislation it is also the case that there could be intersections between the education act and contracts or agreements and sometimes more details provided in teachers contracts about issues such as attendance at staff meetings so we are looking into it and thank you for pointing that out and the next question is I appreciate the response regarding the LGBT issue may I suggest that appropriate content should not be at the discretion of educators but should be a collaboration between administration parents and teachers I think that persons inputs into education are absolutely we would agree that persons input into education is absolutely important and in some cases teachers may have specific reasons educationally for certain certain resources to be or not to be included but consultation we would definitely encourage consultation with parents and community members to advise and that's one of the that's one of the roles excuse me the parent teacher community association could take up so thank you very much for that suggestion and that point and we will certainly consider it the next question is are teachers obligated to work for hours outside of their work schedule when the principal asks I think that Dr. Williams do you have a comment on that I have a thought about that but you may have a specific reference that you would like to pull with regard to the work hours again I think that goes back to other legislation like the teaching service commission in that they hire and appoint teachers and also the teachers collective agreement their contract those types of issues may be spelled out in more detail in the contract thank you that's exactly where I was excited is that it's usually a contractual in here I think there is such a thing as goodwill in teachers principals etc because sometimes everything is not written in the contract or in the letter that the teacher receives but a lot has to do with communication I definitely wanted to support the previous speaker in noting that the appropriate contents should be consulted and she is definitely correct that this is where the parent teacher community association will play a critical part because I'm sure the curriculum units can do will be consulted if they are making new changes to a subject area they normally would consult at the school level and hopefully at community levels just as we have in town hall meetings especially on significant topics like this so I thank you very much for that can we any more questions or should we are we able to move on we are able to move on good next slide please thank you very much for those very thought provoking questions and as we said what we have not considered is being noted so that we can revisit let us see what the draft overview of the draft regulations the regulations we have covered some of the areas already in responding to you but the draft regulation is a document which was there there was an older one I think that was dated 1999 it was in draft form it was never looked at much less implemented but we now say that draft the draft education bill together with the draft regulations will give more teeth if I may say to education for in St. Lucia so it starts with the administration of schools it gives you dates for the opening and closing of schools it gives you the need for school calendar that comes from the ministry of education with dates etc the dates for school vacation for the different terms it speaks about the kind of time tabling which is done school admission school registers how they kept the kind of textbooks school assessments and school zoning under the administration of schools the national curriculum that I just spoke about is described in schedule 5 including alignment with the national qualification framework primary and secondary school curriculums are given and I'm sure somewhere there is the opportunity if certain topics or certain areas are not there that the principal can work on putting it in the interest of the children the management of schools public schools assistant schools, private schools homeschooling school visits and inspection of schools you can find out on schedule 7 describe matters addressed during visits and inspections we have not had many inspections we have had what we might term school visits by the district education officer but I know at one point in time one individual was sent to be trained in the UK as a school inspector and I know he left behind a document which outlined how this can be done what it is a school inspector looks for and literally as happens in the UK schools are graded so this speaks about school visits and school inspections the consoles and associations that would be functioning can be found in part 4 student school student council the national students council parent teachers community associations national council of parent teacher community associations as repeated national council the TVET councils and how these will operate the national code of conduct that we have spoken a lot about is describing schedule 8 including the purpose the guiding principles the standards of behaviors the standard of appropriate dress for teachers, students, parents anybody coming onto a school compound the categories of misbehaviors acceptable and unacceptable responses to behaviors, roles and responsibilities of students, parents to those and we try to make it as positive as possible but at the same time within the authority of principals discipline, disciplinary complaints parent of disciplinary complaints disciplinary responses by the chief education officer and discipline parent results there is a whole process steps as do if somebody is not happy with something how do you go about doing it and as you will hear they require in writing is no longer talk but there will be need for persons to write and to receive a response before things begin to move education appeal tribunal how it will operate the notice of appeal the process of appeal hearing of appeal, decisions and the associated cost to that there is part eight the miscellaneous schedules and forms as we said earlier the zoning schemes application form for parents to operate a private schools, fee structures etcetera is formed under the miscellaneous section of the regulations, the education regulations next slide please any questions on those because these are clearly laid out in the regulations the draft regulations is now I've opened the page to the national curriculum it tells you at the primary level what subjects courses what are the core subject areas religious education exclusive of catechism or instruction you know there you know in addition the curriculum will provide training and pre vocational and technological skills and you have a range of subject areas there and I suppose depending on the needs of a child courses will be introduced in consultation with the chief education officer and the number of children that would be in this class even at the tertiary level this is a case that has been looked into do you provide a subject area for one child when the cost has to be taken into consideration to the salary of the teacher or the tutor so all this is laid out in that section what we call schedule 8 the national curriculum is in level 8 schedule 9 sorry schedule 6 we have some forms there and we have an extensive section on the national code schedule 8 is very very good it describes the purpose of it and I'll just read to you what is why the purpose of this national code of conduct as it is referred to the purpose of the national code of conduct is to promote and reinforce positive respectful behavior by a member of a school community positive respectful behavior by a member of a school community the goal of the national code of conduct is the creation and maintenance of a safe secure and inclusive learning environment where diversity is respected behavioral standards are upheld and teaching and learning thrives and the guiding principles of the national code of conduct are communication the national code of conduct is communicated to a member of a school community through multiple means including a school poster website newsletter social media account and communication from the department in print, radio, television and social media this is so very very important that every principal, every teacher every member of the public every parent must understand that it speaks of consistency the national code of conduct is consistently interpreted and enforced within and between school communities appropriateness what does it speak of the national code of conduct is appropriately applied to students of different ages grades, forms and development levels and abilities including students in different stages of education and students with special education needs the age, developmental level and special education needs of a student is taken into account when communicating interpreting and enforcing the standards of behavior and responding to misbehavior I can go on it speaks about dignity the national code of conduct is enforced in a courteous manner that protects the dignity and privacy of a student staff and a member of a school community whoever this may be fairness if you have to be fair it is enforced in a fair and reasonable manner that does not discriminate against members of school communities based on culture language ethnicity religion political affiliation gender and disability it speaks of positive behavior intervention and support the national code of conduct it speaks of positive student behavior and the provision of appropriate behavioral interventions that supports and support for a student with a behavioral disorder and special education needs who require them it speaks of prevention it speaks of progressive discipline and I want to read this one to you the national code of conduct promotes progressive discipline and the development of essential knowledge values and skills for positive behavior through various programs and supports such as character development education citizenship programs and anger management counseling and I know that many schools have been involved in a program with UNICEF benches were built I know that I visited one or two schools and the walls were plastered with causative affirmations so this is what the code of conduct does for us and in supporting the education the draft education bill questions, comments about the draft regulations now that you have heard a little bit of what is in there I think Mrs. Anthony, maybe while people are thinking about it we might also move on to the next slide where we're asking them to consider thank you while you are thinking about that your priorities and hopes as we said earlier on going forward if you can think a little deeper having heard and having received explanations what are the top three priorities that need to be addressed in this draft education act and the regulations what do you hope will come out of the draft education act and regulations we have a question in the chat I've been hearing about principals yelling at teachers is this allowed in the proposed act and regulations that would not be considered to be appropriate behavior and it would fall under the national code of conduct so there is no code of conduct now that talks about respectful interaction and there are no regulations right now so this is an instance where the code of conduct could serve teachers well in terms of responding to inappropriate behavior and may I add not just teachers but it will serve all those with an interest in education to understand what is appropriate communication and how do and I read a number of indicators dignify teacher principal communication any other questions if not can I ask would anybody be ready to post in the chat or share with us the top three priorities that you think should be addressed in the draft education act and regulations any thoughts I suspect the war note we had lots of great questions early on and thoughts and contributions well I think I will still challenge somebody to say at least what do you see because you mentioned quite a few would you say school security should be a priority to be addressed anybody if not school security and safety yes there's two comments about indeed school security is paramount and school security and safety I think it just took a little thinking provision of appropriate resources thank you any other that's too there were two there were actually two related to security and safety security preferably not watchmen noted okay our next step your questions and comments provided by participants in each town hall meeting will be recorded and analyzed to identify the main topics and issues that have been raised that we promise these topics and issues will be addressed in the validation and finalization of the draft education act and regulations we have come to you we have asked you to speak give yourself a voice and we will take into consideration your thoughts a final draft and accompanying report will be prepared and submitted it will be submitted to the authority that contracted us then the authority will determine what next and as we all know there will be a series of steps to be taken closing remarks Dr. Williams do you have any closing remarks please thank you Mrs. Anthony I believe we'll go back to the district education officer for some closing remarks and then our final thank yous okay thank you over to you DO7 thank you we've had a very long and engaging conversation as it relates to the draft education act to this evening I wish to thank our consultants Miss Fortuna Anthony Dr. Monica Williams Paula Cook McKinnon our officer from the project education unit Miss Edith Emmanuel I'd like to thank our principals and vice principals our teachers parents and other stakeholders who joined this evening I'd like to especially thank our IT officer Mr. Steph Joseph for ensuring that we had the facilities at both of the venues identified for parents to come in and other community persons and I'm hoping that the conversations coming out of our meeting this evening will continue to guide our consultants as to what we would like to see reflected in the new education act as we endeavour to ensure that we have policies to guide everything which happens in our schools today thank you very much and good evening to everyone Thank you very much Mrs. K Clarke Nicholas D07 I will now call on Dr. Williams to make any closing remarks and then followed by Mrs. Paula Cook McKinnon Thank you Mrs. Anthony I'd just like to say thank you to everyone who participated tonight and provided us with such excellent input we will certainly take it under consideration and we really appreciate your contributions this evening Thank you so much Thank you very much Dr. Williams Mrs. McKinnon Thank you so much Mrs. Anthony I just also would like to echo Dr. Williams comments the contributions that made this evening have been very helpful and have highlighted some things that we haven't discussed in other sessions so far so it's always good to continue the discussion and ensure that persons have the opportunity to express their thoughts and about the Draught Education Act and have the opportunity to pose questions I would also like to thank Ms. Clark Nicholas for hosting this evening we appreciate her dedication to this process and her support for this evening's procedures and over to you Mrs. Anthony Thank you ever so much let me just add my voice and say thank you ever so much to everyone especially Mr. Joseph I'm told who did the IT thank you ever so much Mr. Joseph for facilitating this process and I will add my voice once more to say thanks to everyone who attended thanks to those who posted their questions thank you Mrs. Clark Nicholas and I would want to encourage you to engage your principals at some point if they have not yet downloaded the Act and the regulations because it would be a continuous thing and at this point in time I want to thank Ms. Immanuel and to say if you have any other burning issues that you did not raise send it onwards to her so I thank you ever so much good night good night thank you thank you everyone thank you and good night recording stopped so Mrs. Anthony we will go over and access the webinar I think you have a link we have to do this wonderful thank you