 Welcome everyone. Thank you for being here. This is the conservation is not neutral emotion and bias in our work webinar. This is the third and final webinar in the series on social justice and conservation. I'm Sarah Satan, the education manager for the foundation for advancement and conservation. This program is organized by the FAC and volunteers from AIC is equity and inclusion committee and the emerging conservation professionals network. Thank you again for being here. I'm going to give you a brief overview of the zoom platform before turning it over to the moderators. So you should be able to see the moderators and the panelists on your screen, as well as the title slide. To turn on the captions find the close caption button on the bottom of the screen and click the small arrow, then select show subtitles. We appreciate all of the questions that were submitted before the webinar and welcome and welcome additional questions throughout the session today. You can ask your questions by clicking on the Q&A button at the bottom of the screen and typing your question there. Your question will be sent straight to the moderators and they'll address as many questions as possible. You can also use the chat box to share your comments and experiences with the other participants throughout the session. The webinar is being recorded and you will receive an email when the recording is available. I'll now turn it over to the moderators Anita Day and Listeria McGarrity. Thank you everyone for joining us this afternoon. My name is Anita Day and I'm a third year graduate student at Buffalo State's Garmin Art Conservation Department. And I'm also the graduate paper intern at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Asian Art. Currently, I serve on the Equity and Inclusion Committee at Buffalo State and the Washington Conservation Guild's Idea Action Committee. I own Agents to Fight Deterioration, a small business that sells our conservation related goods that create visibility to the field and spreads awareness on how neutrality in conservation contributes to inequality in the field. Hi, I'm Listeria McGarrity. I'm currently the Andrew W. Mellon Fellow in Objects Conservation at the National Gallery of Art, where my research focuses on African-American assemblage art in the gallery's collection. I also serve on the Buffalo Alumni Board and am active with the Black Art Conservators. The recent protests of racial injustice in America have led to conversations on how museums and those who work in them historically dictate whose stories are told and what materials are valued through their preservation. Conservators as an agent of preservation are often at the crux of these issues. Traditional models of conservation have taught us to attempt to maintain scientific objectivity at all times. But in reality, what has historically been called objectivity is actually just the continuation of majority perspective, which was enshrined as objective fact by scientific theories that went hand in hand with colonial subjugation of non-white people. As conservators, we work within the ecosystem of cultural heritage to aid in the preservation of history, holding firm to the idea of objectivity and emotional separation from our interventions on objects. As museums begin to acknowledge their role in upholding colonial perspectives, conservators are also reexamining their role. In contrast to the traditional objective model of conservation, conservators are now questioning the elimination of emotion and bias at our benches. It may not be possible or preferable for conservators to eliminate feelings from their handling of emotionally significant artifacts, even when those artifacts do not emotionally resonate with them personally. We will explore the principles of neutrality in conservation and discuss how biases contribute to inequality in our field with our three panelists, Dr. John Till Robinson, Jamal Sheets, and Latanya Autry. Thank you for the introduction Anita. I am thrilled to start us off with Dr. John Till Robinson, who is a pioneering art historian and curator who received her doctoral degree in art history from the University of Maryland, and was the first curator for both the Spelman College Museum of Fine Art in Atlanta and Tuskegee University's Legacy Museum at the Tuskegee Institute National Historic Site. She curated slash co authored for the Spelman College Museum of Fine Arts contribution to the 1996 Olympics, bearing witness and temporary works by African American women artists, the first exhibition of African American women artists touring the United States of America. In 2016, Dr. Robinson conceptualized the Alliance of HBCU museums and galleries, which is a coalition of 11 historically black colleges and university museums and galleries. Dr. Robinson partnered with Yale University, Princeton University, the Winterter University of Delaware Program in conservation, the Garmin Art Conservation Department at Buffalo State College, the Smithsonian American Art Museum, and Shelly Payne Conservation LLC to create a new pipeline for HBCU students considering conservation careers. Dr. Robinson may have to leave the panel slightly early to accommodate another commitment. So if you have any questions, please put them in the Q&A early. And with that, I'll turn it over to Dr. Robinson. Thank you all so much for this opportunity this afternoon to be a part of this panel. And before I start, I want to thank Caitlyn Richardson again for asking me to participate in Sarah Satron for her work in organizing all of this. And I wanted to take a moment to congratulate LaStarsha McGarrity on being admitted to the PhD program in conservation at the University of Delaware Winter Tour. And I want to congratulate Jamal Sheets, my fellow panelists. Sheets is a fellow at the Center for Curatorial Leadership. The success of both these individuals strike at the heart of African Americans in major positions in the art world, and we are so proud of Jamal and LaStarsha. And those of you who know my legendary persistence should also understand how racists and bigots can thwart your progress, but they cannot stop it. A dream cannot be stopped. Approximately 27 years ago, I was curator of the Spellman Art Collection. In 1988, a gift was made to build an art museum from the ground up at Spellman College. I came to Spellman in 1989 and stayed until 1999. I received early tenure. Plus, Lev Mills, artist, Dr. Akua McDaniels, art historian, and I worked on what should be included in the museum. The builder for the museum was Herman Russell, a black man. The firm that worked on the museum design and interior was white. Lev Akua and I met several times with an individual from the firm tasked with the interior design and preparation for the building being created. I had taken an introductory course, directed studies in art conservation and graduate school. So I knew I wanted a mini conservation lab in this new museum. I had the foresight to ask for a conservation lab several times on the premise that it was a new building, there was money, and you asked for as much as you can get going in. I asked for the equipment and a basic conservation lab. I asked innumerable times. The response of this white man who was working with us on museum design and interior said, we did not need an art conservation lab. In other words, what did a black women's college need with an art conservation lab? In fact, we needed it desperately. His only nod to my request was to put a sink in museum storage. He and I stopped speaking long before the project ended. He hated me and I knew he did. He made no pretense about it. He hated that I even knew what a conservation lab was. And WTF was I doing asking for one. Black conservators, this is emotion and bias in your work. But by asking according to Toni Morrison and Abram Kendi, I had escaped the white gaze. When internalized by black people, the white gaze functions as a pair of glasses, binding our eyes and thereby our very being. The white gaze, no matter what one's identity is to center white people and their looks, their ways, their perspectives, and their actions. The white gaze positions white people as the perpetual main characters of black life and thought. It colonizes imaginations. It becomes hard to create. And without what people think and will and without what white people think about the creation ever present. That is an art conservation lab as a workspace at Spelman College in 1993. The white gaze situates white people as the audience and deport the rest of us as illegal aliens fast forward 27 years. And here I am on a panel discussing conservation is not neutral emotion and bias in our work. The white gatekeeper for the field of art conservation that I encountered 27 years ago is no different from the conservators gatekeepers now. His admonition is the same that we hear today. You don't need that art conservation is not for you. You do not need to preserve your cultural heritage. There are not, there are not enough jobs. The same person that told me no 27 years ago is the same person that sits in meetings with me today, and pretends that they are interested in the learning alliance of HBCU museums and gallery students and learning art conservation museum leadership, curators curatorial studies, and then pivot towards preventing the very thing they are saying publicly, they want. In other words, this is bias in your work. How must this bias be counteracted. How must it be opposed. How must it be resisted prevented and restrained. I would like to show you some resistance. MLK day 2021 DBG, the downtown boxing gym, partnered with class at Detroit and target and target to host a thought provoking inspiring event that had students creating their own unique beats and rhymes and painting original works of art with a civil rights theme. Thank you to Rashad Dobbins who is the founder of class at Detroit. Rashad is a friend of my daughter's prejon, and I am going to talk to these students about art conservation, and especially time based media art conservation at the Institute of Fine Arts New York University and the courageous support of Michelle Marancola for Alliance programming. We're ready to start the revolution. We're focused on MLK and really representing what he's doing for. He managed to build a better nation, not by himself but with an entire group of people. Put your fists up in the sky. Hey everybody. It's Mr. D. And Ms. Carter. Class at Detroit. For MLK day this year, we held a virtual event where the kids basically got to be themselves, but also allowing to have a voice showing them that you can use music to send messages and to create change. What did you guys think about, you know, changes that came in the world. Better improve our nation's like, you know, equality. I would say he changed our nation, but for the better. He sparked conversations that most people were afraid to even have or to talk about. It basically helped shape our world today, but it also helped us to continue the fight that we're fighting today. One of our workshops included them being able to create a beat. So far we have, I have a dream for Jessica. I have a dream for services to move the world, move the spark to move the whole world, and then you can kind of move into some more. We had another workshop where the students were able to paint and express themselves to paint. Please hold it up. Let us see what's on your mind. I hope that the students took from this event. They are the future but they're really the now the scholars are the now. You are the revolution, we love you. Hi Dr. Robinson, we can't see your screen. You couldn't see that. Oh my goodness, you missed all of that. Can you share your screen again. We can try it out one more time. Okay, I apologize. Let's see. Also, if there's a link if this video is on a webpage, we can put the link in the chat and let people watch it on their own as well if you'd prefer to do that. Right. Oh, I'm so sad that they didn't see that. Okay, so you'll let me know when I put something else up whether or not you can see it. Oh, did they hear, they could hear it though. Okay. So the conservation center at the Institute of Fine Arts New York, one of four graduate programs in art conservation in the country relies on grants from funding agencies and individuals to run its programming and supported students as part of a recent grant from a Mellon Foundation to the conservation center of the Institute of Fine Arts. The New York University agreed to create educational videos that illustrate aspects of art and artifact conservation on conservation science. New York University shares under $30,000 and the work is to be completed before summer 2022. Michelle Marancola will coordinate the video production at IFA NYU, which is to be created by students and faculty as part of a classroom as part of classroom assignments and conservation with colleagues from outside New York University who will be among their ideal audience. The Alliance of HBCU Museums and Galleries will advise IFA NYU on useful topics and approaches, and perhaps identify HBCU students who would like to take part in the video production. IFA NYU will acknowledge each participant by name and role as well as the Alliance in the credits for each video. Michelle believes the project holds potential for interesting more students from HBCU institutions in the field of conservation and even providing useful instruction for galleries and archives and collections care. It is my hope to show the students at Class Act Detroit, and I'm so sorry you didn't see the video but you heard it, and our 12 HBCUs, Michelle's videos including Spelman College. Before the entire process that I encountered at Spelman has not only completely turned around 27 years later but it has taken on a sense of urgency, majesty and magnificence, and it is now more expansive. 27 years later I have survived, and Jock Reynolds, formerly the director of the Yale University Art Gallery, and Ian McClure, director of a summer teacher's institute in technical art history at Yale University IPCH, invited me to a summer teacher's institute in technical art history. This long hell passion ignited once more with this invitation. The same day that the opportunity was offered, I applied. The Yale University Art Gallery and IPCH opened up to the Alliance of HBCU museums and galleries, and our students. What we have been able to do in five years is nothing short of miraculous. I first met Michelle Marincola at the stature at Yale in 2016, and that is how all of this has unfolded. Patrick Ravines, director of the Conservation Department at Buffalo State, and Professors Emily Hamilton and Gabriel Dunn, and the student Katya Zinsley. And originally, LaStarsha McGarrity, who is now the moderator for this panel and has graduated from Buffalo State, they assisted in conserving two dioramas from the 1940 Negro Exposition in Chicago. And I just want to show you a brief clip of LaStarsha conserving one of the dioramas and you all let me know if you can see this on the screen. And you have to hit share screen first before we can see it at the bottom. Okay. My name is LaStarsha McGarrity, and I'm originally from San Antonio, Texas. I was able to get interested in conservation at my undergraduate Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas, where I was able to be involved in preserving some of our murals on campus, and that started me on the path towards conservation. I worked on a diorama entitled The Serving of Washington D.C. by Benjamin Banneker, and it was made in 1939 or 1940. The diorama features Benjamin Banneker, who is an African American astronomer, surveyor and author, who partially surveyed the lands that became Washington D.C., and is most well known for creating a series of almanacs. It also features Andrew Ellicott and Isaac Brates, as well as two men who represent the roles that enslavement played in building most of the federal buildings prior to emancipation with the original White House in the background. Restoration of the diorama first included photography to document the current condition of it and any changes that have made so that way if anything was found later to be inaccurate, it could be easily removed because there was evidence of what it was beforehand. Following photography, I performed dry surface cleaning with brushes and sponges to remove a lot of the dirt and grime that it built up, followed by aqueous cleaning, which just means that I used water to clean it. Very specifically because everything is watercolor and insensitive to water, so I first applied a layer of mineral spirits so that way I could remove the dirt without affecting the watercolor paint below. Following that, I did consolidation, which just means that the layers that were detaching from the object were put back down with the adhesive that's reversible. And I reached out to Joyce Stoner and Debbie Hess-Narris at the University of Delaware winter tour about the dioramas at the Legacy Museum, and we are now having conservation programs to interest students from HBCUs in art conservation at the UDL winter tour. And an elementary school principal saw the CBS Sunday morning feature about the dioramas being conserved at UDL winter tour and called me. And now Cindy Schwartz and Ann Collins Smith, director of the Spellman College Museum of Fine Art, will assist me in talking to black elementary school students in Chicago. Their parents and their teachers about museum occupations, including art conservation, museum directorships, and curatorial positions. And Cindy Schwartz, Christine McCarthy, Tara Kennedy, and Mark Aronson at Yale University Art Gallery, Yale Center for British Art, and Yale University Libraries are collaborating in a UNCF Mellon Teaching and Learning Institute, specifically aimed at educating students and mentors from HBCUs about art conservation. Paul Messier at Yale's IPCH has been helpful with alliance programming and alliance students and we are grateful to him and everyone at IPCH. Truly this is a new day. I greet this new day with joy and zeal. My exuberant outlook brightens my world. And adds brilliance to even the most bias, bigoted behavior I encounter. I see the best in each person and all situations grounded in the idea that good, good, like all that I have shared with you today is in and through all things. I am jubilant. And with gratitude, I am thankful to all of you who have helped. Thank you so much, Dr. Robinson. It's my pleasure to introduce Jamal Sheetz, the director and curator of the Fisk University Galleries and assistant professor at Fisk University's art department. Sheetz joining the galleries in 2015, he has curated 19 exhibitions, established the Fisk Museum Leadership Program, expanded and nurtured partnerships, implemented innovative programs to foster access and engaged with the collections. Sheetz is a trustee of the Frist Art Museum and is a board member on the HBCU Alliance of Museums and Galleries, Association of Academic Museum and Galleries, and the Maddox Fund. He received his MFA from Tufts University and BS in art from Fisk University. Sheetz is a member of the 14 cohort of the Center for Curatorial Leadership Fellowship. We are delighted to have Jamal here with us today. And with that, I turn it over to Jamal. It's such a pleasure to be a part of the conversation and to be along here with my colleagues, Dr. Robinson, Latanya Autry and special thank you to Vistarsha and Sarah and Caitlin. And it's also nice to see in the chat all of the conservatives that we've worked with over the years. And so it almost feels like a homecoming of sorts, even though we're all meeting virtually. I'm going to try and attempt to share my screen. So, can you all see it? Oh no. Can you all see my screen? I just want to confirm. Fantastic. And so thank you once again. And so, again, it's such a pleasure to be here and I'm super excited to kind of unpack the topic, just a little bit. I always like to say that I started my career as an artist. So that's really the lens that I look through as my or approach as a director and curator of fiscal diversity galleries, but also as an educator as well. And so with that, I think back to my days in graduate school, rather professor would always ask the question, what makes good art. I think to that question is always a good question makes good art. And so I wanted to use that as an analogy to the statement that conservation is not neutral. That's a wonderful statement. But the question is, or what good questions would be is why is conservation not neutral or can conservation become neutral or what systems or structures prevent conservation from being neutral. And so it's not listed in that list, but it's an undertone of the conversation and I think we're going to have today is that conservation is also a lot about priorities. And so I'm going to discuss the topic through the lens of our collections, just a little bit. And so fish university galleries was has been a collecting it's a fish university has been a collecting institution since the 1870s. One of our collections were built at a time where many artists of color and women were largely unrecognized or ignored. And so with that we're known for the Alfred Stigets collection of modern art. We actually are in the process of installing orders of influence part three pictured here is orders of influence part to the title wall, the Alfred Stigets collection of modern art. For part three, we've dropped the subtitle, and it's just orders of influence because we're broadening the narrative. We're used we're including African and African American modernist developed to tell a better story of early early European and American modernism. But I wanted to use this as an example first to talk about kind of this is what out of all the 40 the 4300 works in our collection this is what Fisk is known for. This is actually the draw. I mean literally people are knocking down doors and clamoring to get in to see this exhibition, and they're coming to see Picasso when war says on. And of course, George O'Keeffe, who donated the collection to Fisk after the, after the death of her late husband Alfred Stiglitz and Alfred Stiglitz himself. So this has been somewhat of the gateway to the institution, and it's also been one of the priorities for the institution but we're fortunate that now we share the collection. We had a seven year legal battle. And out of that seven year legal battle. We develop a partnership with Crystal Bridges. And the collection rotates every two years. So with that, we're able to highlight other aspects of our collection. And so we have to remember that we've been a collecting institutions to 1870s, but also Aaron Douglas came to Fisk in 1930 to paint the murals. This is a piece that was commissioned by Aaron Douglas building were safely manages in 1944, and this was housed in the International Center, which was a place that we would exhibit artwork. We also had objects from the Harmon Foundation that would be exhibited at Fisk from 1926 at our first annual spring arts festival through its through the Harmon Foundation's closure in 1967. We also had David Driscoe who came to Fisk as chairman of the art department after Douglas retired in 1966. So I was at the hem of the gallery became a director of the gallery. And during his tenure, you saw a huge influx of artists of his time coming into our collections. So the question that has become is what is sustained is where's those collections that have sustained us. So we look back at 2019 we saw nearly 10,000 visitors. Now Fisk is a small institution, we have about 875 students so to see 10,000 visitors that's quite a feat. And so with the number of visitors that have been coming in to see our exhibitions, the conversation has changed and no longer looking to see the opera tickets collection. Oftentimes they're coming just that they may have one expectation but they come out leaving with a greater appreciation. And so I wanted to show images that had people just because I'm yearning for the opportunity to welcome more people into the galleries today. Now what's pictured here is Terry Atkins. This was our previous exhibition Terry Atkins our sons and daughters every on the altar. Now what you're looking at are the original plates from the book the souls of black folks. I wanted to use this as an example because the over the years, the conversation has changed. Now when people come into the gallery they're saying well, wow, do you know what you have my first question is always yes. Why is this here is the next question or they make statements about this should be somewhere else that this should be at the Smithsonian or this should be at this museum it should be any other place, but here. Now, these objects have become a part of the mainstream as institutions are clamoring to feel the boy of artists that they did not that that were either ignored underrepresented that now that there are priority that then the question comes up of where they belong. So it seems that also as an example because as we think about those questions, those questions in the future can lead to, and I joke with this but lead to conversations about repatriation. Now, going back to. So going back to those structures of those questions that we talked about before. You see that goes back to the structures that that inform the way that we train the form the way that we think about training. That inform the way that that our processes are, and our processes generally align with our priorities. Now again, I talk about our collection in the sense that our collection was built at a time when either was built at a time or when people of color and women were largely under recognized. And then also I think about our collection because with administrations priorities are instituted. And so for depending on the administration depends on what collections were our property for a long time. Now that's not unique to a certain extent because when you look at most museums in the United States only 1.2% of music only 1.2% of collections are of African American artists. And, yeah. So it goes back to saying that that the work is relevant. Now that the work is relevant it shouldn't be here. And so in order to address the first question is why is conservation bias. Well the conservation is biased because of priorities and priorities get funded. Now to get back to the second question is how or why can, how can we or why isn't conservation neutral. Now this is a work we're in preparation of, we're in preparation of preparing an exhibition of African modernist African modernist in America from 1947 to 1967, which is going to travel several to several different venues. But I wanted to use this particular image as an example. Barack and Ola Shikhan Okudimbe of Alicia. Now this particular piece and that's about bad Yoruba with the Southern accent, but this is about Okudimbe who was a warrior and legend has it that he was decapitated in this fight. Why is it significant is because when I think about the collection and at Fisk is that we have survived. We have survived in spite of now what does that mean we have survived in spite of the lack of funding. And so when you look at priorities and you look at funding, I want to give you some data. So when you think about if you were to combine all of the 100 HPC use endowments and put them up against to the top predominantly white institutions. And some would not even broach the top 50. So what does that mean, that's just not among academic institutions that also goes along with collecting preference. And so we talk about museums and institutions. They, and the way where they spend their funding or allocate their resources to find what artists are important. So then that brings me to the next question. So why funding is important but funding also we fund our priorities. So when I started at Fisk, we started up we started with our gallery ambassador program. Now that program consisted of students that had recently come to Fisk the gallery had just been open. Many of them walk in the door and got the bug. And I realized while they got the bug was that they came from cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles, and they hadn't had access to museums, and those major metropolitan cities. Fast forward last week I was having a conversation with one of our colleague, another colleague who's also a museum director, and I was sharing with her the data from the students that we have an obviously leadership program, or in our, not just our gallery ambassador program. And in that conversation she said as institutions we have failed. And so as institutions we have failed to, to put the funding in the right places to expose our young people to the opportunities within the field. And so we started also a barrier, if not the barrier. And so what are we doing to help to help break those bears is that we established a Fisk museum leadership program in conjunction with the HPC Alliance of museums and galleries. Now that program consists of four modules, five now we actually added a new partner this year. The first model is conservation. The second one is collections management and registration. The second one is museum education, and then the last module is museum development. And so we hope to do is give students a crash course into all different aspects of the museum. Now Dr Robinson mentioned a lot of our partners. This year we have a new partner and that's LACMA and LA County Museum of Art, and we partner to create our collections management module, but also they did our conservation module, and we're working on a two year fellowship to train HPC students in the area of conservation technicians, and also in collections managers. And here's also another slide with one of my favorite conservators and there's a bunch that Dr Robinson had mentioned and I've seen so many of you all in the chat. And so, before I end what I would want to leave you with is that is that while we're out you are all conservators working at your perspective institutions. You know as we've talked about today it's about asking the right questions or asking different questions. With the priorities funded, we have to begin to ask questions about who is not being represented, not just in terms of our collections but in terms of our research and personnel. So when I asked of you all to do is advocate within. And with that advocacy from within and asking those critical questions, then that can be a way that we that that the field of conservation could be less biased and become and move forward to being more neutral. Thank you for that presentation Jamal that was wonderful. And I have the pleasure of introducing our last finalist for today. Last panelist for today my purchase. That is LaTanya archery she is a curatorial organizer, and currently the gunned curator in residence at mocha in Cleveland. LaTanya exercises her practice through developing exhibitions and programming in institutional spaces and various para institutional collaborative projects, including the social justice and museums resource list. The arts of black descent museums are not neutral and the black liberation center. LaTanya is completing her PhD in art history at the University of Delaware, and is examining the interplay of race representation memory and public space in her dissertation entitled the crossroads of commemoration lynching landscapes in America. And with that I'll turn it over to LaTanya. Thank you to everybody for well for Caitlin for reaching out with the invitation and really to everyone here today I'm very excited to be on a panel with such brilliant people really everybody in this group is amazing and I've been enjoying listening to these really important presentations. Yeah, so museums are not neutral I just wanted to talk about it a little bit since conservation is not neutral seems like it's kind of building on that same energy. This is an initiative that I co produced with Mike Morowski who's a friend of mine who works out in Oregon, also works in museums, and we kind of just put together this phrase which I actually wear the t shirt. I kind of came up with this as a way to kind of push back against so much of the discourse in museums and a lot of it what I was hearing at the time I actually used to work at Yale University Art Gallery. And several people there kept telling me oh we can't do this we can't do that like various programming because the museum had to be neutral. And I was like there is way that don't even make any sense. A museum in the first place is pretty much out of a colonialist construct. And it's just putting in a reductive way people going to other countries and taking objects back and putting it on view in this kind of European model. And that's what I wanted to do with power dynamics and everything and also working at Yale University Art Gallery was like, this obviously I mean any museum but Yale come on, I was often not even the only black person but the only person of color and meetings for years. There was just no way that that was a neutral environment ever. When I left in 2017 I just was so I was just kind of done with hearing people say that thing about neutrality and museums I've heard it for years in multiple areas, but I had just kind of hit the ceiling with that at that point after leaving Yale. So that's how the initiative started and we had no idea that it would go on and become a big thing and it became global, because it resonated with a lot of people and we're not really saying we, you know, ever invented the idea of not being neutral. That was what it was it was just making a point that more people started using the phrase to as a way to connect with one another. And it became global. It went on past a few months is what we originally thought this would be, and it became national but also international people all across the world have kind of latched on to the, to the phrase and they use the hashtag as a way to communicate with one another and stuff. And I think that's really wonderful. So I work as a curator, and I don't think of my curatorial work at all is is nothing about neutrality I mean as you know for me it doesn't even make any sense. Of course it's about power dynamics as I said, I've often been the only person of color only black person but also only person of color and a majority black cities like right now I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and is a majority black city and I work in a white museum space that there aren't any black people in any positions of power and haven't been for over half a century. It is common. It is common. I've only really worked mainly in white museums kind of spaces for the most part. And it is, you know, it's ongoing racism basically all the time, in addition to sexism and classism and a whole lot of other things. I wanted to show you some some stuff from a previous exhibition I curated here in 2019. Oh, 2020. It's called temporary spaces of joy and freedom. And I'm going to pull up the presentation real quick here. Okay, can you see my screen now. Okay, let me get to the beginning. So my training has mostly been I've gone to universities of predominantly white and worked mainly and predominantly white museums as well. And it's been interesting because I've also been using the opportunity while I've been in these museum spaces to really expand my understanding of critical race theory so I apply critical race theory to the work of how museums operate. And so partly by being on the inside, it was a way to get more research. And I've really learned a lot about racism and how it operates through this this model, this way of learning. And this show temporary spaces of joy and freedom I really feel like I kind of got to this point where I am really I learned a lot. Basically I kind of came up with deciding for myself as a curator that my curatorial praxis would be centering black people centering folks of color centering those people are historically excluded. So when I'm creating exhibitions I'm always trying to really be in dialogue with people like me, people from working class backgrounds and so forth, all the people that these white museums typically actually exclude on the regular. So this show is working with Leanne Batas Masaki Simpsons books so she's a Indigenous scholar and Mishi Saga Nishinabek scholar in the area now known as Toronto, Ohio. And some of the things she says in her work which I'm going to talk about a little bit. It really resonated with Toni Morrison, who is one of these people who for me is just kind of everything you know she's like a mentor to me I don't know her unfortunately, but I did meet her many times through her scholarship. And this is a quote from, you know, a passage. And I really like when I read it, it made so much sense to me and it was so antithetical to actually my training as a curator, like I said having been trained in institutions. She's basically saying you know what what black writers should be doing is be writing for black people. Stop kind of creating material that's really written for white people where we actually end up kind of harming ourselves doing things that are really like just violent to black people but for the sake of building ourselves up through through white institutions through the, in this case you're talking about literature. But when I read this I thought that thought about this a lot like now we can get down to the craft of writing where black people are talking to black people. In this case I think she was actually referring to Ralph Ellison's book Invisible Man, and she was talking about invisible to whom. Who was this character invisible to black people were seeing him but because for him, he was the character seemed to be really focused on how white people thought about him all of the time. And so, I think this is kind of responds in a way to what Dr. Jean-Till Robinson was talking about earlier about the white gaze when you kind of always think about white people is the normalized audience. And it's often how many of the predominantly white institutions frame everything is it's, they're mainly trying to reach a white audience and typically an art museums is that upper middle class and affluent white audience as well. So, I thought as a black curator coming from a working class background. Not my audience, those are not my people and I always want to be in dialogue with my people so finding like Tony Morrison's work really is something I thought I'm going to keep that in mind as a curator I've had to find what are the things I could hold on to and bring them to my curatorial praxis. So, let's see here. So, I came across an article. This was a couple of years ago. Online is called temporary spaces of joy and freedom and it was a discussion but it's between Leanne but Tosmasaki Simpson and Dionne brand. I had heard of Dionne brand she's a Caribbean Canadian poet scholar educator, all around amazing brilliant person. I didn't know Leanne who is also all of those things and an activist. She is, like I said, Missy Saget Nishnabeg, and they have this conversation and they're talking about land's book as we have always done indigenous freedom through radical resistance. I read the article and it just really sunk in my head and I kept thinking wow this is some powerful stuff and how have I not heard of this person before. And, you know I'm not, I'm not of her community but I got a lot out of it and she was mainly her big point what she said is with her book is that she wrote her book with her community her Missy Saget Nishnabeg community in my. And besides for like, often she said when she's doing her writing publishers, you know wait publishers probably would tell her that she should be including like glossaries and defining all of these words and really, you know changing the context so that white readers would be able to just get the work right away and she was like no I'm writing for my community. That point that she makes in this discussion that she's having with Dionne Brand. Just really hit home to me about who am I creating exhibitions with and for who am I writing wall text for who am I, you know trying to be in dialogue with, like, as I said working in a predominantly white museum here in Cleveland, where it's a city this majority is black but the people who come in the museum don't look anything, you know, like the actual city, and there's reasons why you know why that's the case. Black people aren't in positions really of power and can make the exhibitions and programming for the most part, where I am. So, working with this book one of the things I like that Leanne talks about to is, you know communities working together in particular in that community she's like we should work together more and fighting white supremacy. So this is the kind of stuff where I start really like, I already had these ideas about critical race theory and been applying them through the museum work, but through coming to this finding this discussion and then doing this work, it really started to sharpen my ideas more towards an abolitionist and decolonial type of curatorial praxis. So that's what I'm trying to get at now more of a liberatory kind of thinking, a way that's about how do we abolish white supremacy, and how do I do that through my work as a curator or any kind of things I'm doing. And for me curatorial work involves of course like programming and stuff I don't see it as separate. Okay, go back. So the show this was a was a, in many ways kind of a small show. It had a featured about six artists. So this is it was in this long, kind of weird room like a bowling alley, kind of shape room, but it worked out great in the end because I brought in this floor cloth that's by two artists that are part of the nicest place, Moana, by Moana Anumatalo and Kyle Gowan. And we had some, excuse me, some video here from Leanne who is a singer and artists and just poet all kinds of things. So this yellow wall had a text on the wall where she said, historically, it's been indigenous and black artists who have created visions of freedom. And this kind of freedom is more than just things that you think about in your head but it's freedom like something that's in your body is an embodied kind of experience. So I thought about artists that seem to resonate with, you know, what she's saying in the in that discussion, and then I invited a few different people to be part of this show. And like I said, the red carpet here down the center, this is a 30 foot long canvas floor cloth. It's by Moana Anumatalo and Kyle Gowan. This area in the back here is a by Tricia Hersey who is of the NAP ministry. Some of you might have heard of her. She's on Instagram and a whole lot of things and really wonderful thinker basically telling us that rest is our resistance. And that is our reparations. Our rest is part of the reparations that we should be having. This is just another view of the space. You can see more of the video screens. One of the videos over here is Leanne Batos Masaki Simpson in Kara Mumford and the one in the back is by Leanne as well. But this time with Amanda Strong. And we had this kind of reading area in the space. I'm always trying to find ways to include more materials and to help more people, you know, tap into their power. And in this case, it was some of the, you know, Leanne and Dionne Brand are both writers. So I of course included their own books in the space but also books for children just other other kinds of things other things that were just some of them are things that Leanne talked about in the essay. Some are things that I just thought related and made sense like Audre Lorde, you know, important person, Saidia Hartman, important person, just all good things up on this wall. And these are just some kind of close up some more of the content of the videos. So Trisha is a portal for rest where she actually invited people this is pre COVID, you know, unfortunately the show is only open for a little while we opened it. It like the very end of January, and the museum was open for about a month and then we closed because of COVID reopened for like one more month later at the year but then closed again so the show really only was open for like a couple of months really. And I would say, is it really did a lot on that little bit of time. It was different for people and the way I wrote the text I tried to write the brochure texts that I was really communicating directly with the people that this show was for and I thought very much about black people here in Cleveland are typically excluded and also native communities. And this is another images of how we had some of the posters up from Trisha's IG, they became kind of posters that were up into the space here and the programming. This is a work by John Edmonds photographer who graduated from Yale actually by the way. Take some more pictures or decolonize this place in the essay it was. I basically was questioning this idea about marking communities who is the we all of that kind of stuff who is the we when we talk about we in the museum and really questioning who that we is when white museum folks curators and we their we is very different than my we and I made a point to actually really talk about that and the we who isn't really invited in the institution, a lot of times places will say like where I was, I've been, they will say well, you know we're doing equitable work because the museum has free admission that doesn't make the museum equitable actually, and they didn't know really what these words were a lot of times people are using a lot of words like diversity inclusion equity. All of this I found where I would just ask people questions about what they really meant by these words where were they getting them from. This is something I feel so proud of that I did with this show is the artists in the show in temporary spaces joy and freedom for the most part were activists as well as artists they are actually people who are really trying to change the world. That's not the case all the time you know with artists that really was the case out with this show. And here I'm over here, and lianna seated and I invited the artists so this is Trisha her see right here this is by Moana. And this is Kyle going. I invited them to meet some other artists and cultural producers here in Cleveland and really try to build a cohort. I think this is what's so important is just you know finding the right people and kind of building energy with each and creating a network where we can keep supporting our work over time. So this just kind of give you a brief idea but yeah I'm really excited about this thing that I'm calling, you know, a Libertory curatorial praxis that some being very careful about who I'm working with, and how I'm doing that work and I'm not really sure. A lot of times on how to do it exactly it wasn't really trained to do this. It's me figuring it out as I go, you know go through the steps. Thank you. Thank you LaTonya for that presentation and I'd like to also thank Jamal sheets and Dr Robinson for their presentations and the discussions that they have opened up today. And with that I'd like to remind the audience that they can submit their questions through the q amp a portal, and we'll get to as many of the questions as we can. And then I'd like to discuss an image. It's on the next slide please. So this is myself, my co intern and my two supervisors when I was working at the National Museum of African American history and culture. We were treating a nights of the Ku Klux Klan banner. And this image is courtesy of CBS News who did a segment on the African American History Culture Museum before it opened. And this is the first time in conservation that I really found that a piece triggered a very strong emotional response in me, and I had to confront my bias and treating this work. And so I'd like to open the discussion with asking the panel. If they have any similar experiences with an object that made them confront their bias or elicited an emotional response. I can share a little bit I guess. Nobody else has anything at the moment. So this is that yell. I worked in the photo department as a curatorial fellow, and it was interesting so a lot of times classes would a professor would reach out and ask for certain objects to be on view. I would put them like up on some kind of easel so in temper not actually like installed in the galleries you know this is kind of in the, we call it the print room or something you know just a space is private for people coming into view and I found it to be so difficult when people would ask for images of Native American people because we didn't have any photographs by Native American people actually of themselves. And in particular like with the Edward Curtis photographs and they really kind of put for a racist narrative about the vanishing Indian or something I think that's like what it's called. So I'll be putting these out and it's like always this work of trying to like, kind of like you putting it out and they're, they're actually visually beautiful. And like how they're done formally, you know, and everything, but they're also really hyper violent these images and a lot of times people don't know it sometimes they do sometimes they don't. So it's the case for me to figure out like how much they know. And what they don't know and how to kind of make sure that we're kind of sharing this larger context. And at the same time, advocating for the museum to actually buy some photographs by Native American artists as well, and trying to work with, you know, faculty on on at the university as well I've just found that to be really challenging and the whole time I was there we never had any pictures by Native American artists. So it was, it was hard. That's just one example. I'm going to jump out that I just realized that the sun has been shining on my face. So I hope you all can see me but at any rate, I'm going to jump out there because yes we do have optics in our collection that are racially charged or objects that carry a bit of, I don't know energy around them. I won't talk about those it's actually as you were talking as you asked the question, I was thinking more about the people and our visitors and our patrons at the gallery. And so I can give you two examples of, of that and I remember at that time, I think it was 2016 and I had an employee that worked in the gallery who was not a person of color. And it was probably her third day on the job, and we had a patron come into the gallery and was excited about the exhibition and had a bunch of questions and, and she could not answer those questions and she would say we have to talk to the director. And so I came out of my office and I tried to talk to and this person will not look at me and would only ask her questions. And so I use it as an example to talk about, you know, not necessarily the objects but sometimes the people that make those faces uncomfortable. Another example that would be even though we do have objects shackles and things of that nature but it also makes me think about a tour that we had that came to campus. And at the end of the tour the person asked me said you know what actually came because it actually see you right I said yes was founded six months after the Civil War. I said yes, he said well actually came to see me see the slave art and says slave art he's like yeah I want to see shackles I want to see this. You know, so it's those kind of interactions that that I would equate that experience to not necessarily the objects. I wanted to share a work with everyone, the Tuskegee Legacy Museum owns this work. Let me make sure that I have shared my screen properly. If you want to click the share screen button at the bottom the green button. So I wanted to share this piece by it would bracket. And can you hear me. Okay. So this is so this is john Brown the abolitionist. And it needs conservation, but I wanted to share with you that. The fact that it has been painted. Probably saved it. I think I have a I have an idea that the students probably colored this change the color of it. And, you know, because it was all white marble, or me white plaster and so, you know, it was a time when that was not acceptable at Tuskegee something like this we have a lot of things in storage where they have colored things that were white black. And I think it is very interesting that they chose. They also did this one probably we did not know what this was until a couple of years ago. And I was reading about a marble copy of this that a marble example of this that was done by it would bracket that is at Tufts University. And so that's how we found out it was john Brown because I was reading it in the paper. And so, so I am positive that the students did not know who john Brown was, and, you know, color this. And actually, I'm going to say, again, that it saved it to save the sculpture, you know, from being harmed. And also, I wanted to tell you that this business about hanging him, and all the things that black people have been through in the police brutality and George Floyd and the kneeling on the neck and all it just brings up all kinds of it brings up all kinds of sorrow in me when I when I when I personally when I have to deal with this piece. And I wanted to share that. Thanks. And actually to list Arsha. How did you as a conservator get through the experience of conserving a KKK banner. That was something that I had to learn as I was doing it. I wasn't prepared for the amount of my work that was going to come home with me. I wanted to sort of make an extra time at the end of the day to make sure that I leave that piece at work and that I gave myself enough time for self care in dealing with that piece because I know that I cannot tell my history and the history of my family without sort of information and without those sort of objects, but I still wasn't fully prepared with how much emotional charge that would create for me. So there was a lot of making sure that I had my cup of tea at the end of the day, and being sure that I had someone else review what I thought was correct for conservation to make sure that my bias of its context and of its history wasn't making my conservation decisions. Can I ask a question. So I think that you said that word bias, and especially in this instance is it's like I'm like thinking about it a lot like is that bias. I mean to me I think about bias having to do with like unfair kind of perspective or you know whatever like something like that and I'm like, but about a KKK, whatever it was robe, what was it some kind of it wasn't a banner wasn't a banner, a banner. I'm like that's not really. I don't think of that as bias really I mean the KKK is a violent horrible thing. And so I think you know any feelings like that are just those are justified I mean I get in a way. I don't know what you mean but I also want to kind of tease away from that work because I think we're using it a little too freely or something and it's that that's a very specific thing what bias means and I don't think I think it's a black person that's hired to work on a KKK banner. You know, I don't know that's a lot like it's a lot. I mean, I know I hear you about trying to have self care but I don't think having really strong negative feelings about that would mean that you were biased really I don't see it like that like I'm not interpreting that word like that but I do think it's a I think it is an emotional charge, of course, but I don't see I think bias means something else to me. So I just was thinking about that more because I think that's a lot like that's real heavy like you went in with that and I'm like dang I haven't had that experience. I've had some some some real charged things, but not that. I mean they happen to me in a different way as a curator. And they have been some some stuff that's happened where I've been very like, I can't believe I even participated in things where I later I'm embarrassed, you know years later I'm like, I shouldn't have done it. I should have. I feel like I should have excused myself from that instance and other people like oh you had to do it. I mean it's happening to me in so many ways working in white museum spaces. I've been compelled to do things, and later really felt bad about it, but not, not this like this thing that you did I feel like that is very hard to do. And to be the person that's going to spend that time that kind of careful care of an object. So so long with something. Yeah, that's that's pretty heavy duty to me. I have a lot of questions about the stars just project and maybe we can kind of pose it to all the panelists of how would we approach treatments such as this like how would we start, how could we assign this to someone. Is there a discussion that we can have kind of like a pre discussion of before starting treatment before even looking at the object what can be done. In my case specifically my supervisors were very upfront about what the project was going to be, and I was given the option to walk away at any point. Whether that meant I left doing that treatment entirely and that was going to be up to my supervisors, or if that meant I can't work on it today, or this week. It was something that was shared between the four of us so it was myself, my co intern and my two supervisors. So that way, if one of us needed to take a break from it, there was still people completing the work. So that way it could get through the conservation process as quickly and as safely as possible. So that way it wasn't something that we were constantly exposed to. It could be put back into storage where it was covered and had its appropriate labelings on it so that way people knew before they open the box, what they were going to be seeing. So that way if that was something that they had not prepared themselves for, then they can just move the box along to whatever process I needed to be moved to without having to be directly exposed to that object. So I think it's just a lot of forethought and care and making sure that if someone says I can't do that right now or I can't do that at all, that you're prepared to have someone else step in or step in yourself. That's a good thing that you had that experience with folks where they, they, they did that and I mean I've been in a case where it wasn't conservation necessarily was about collections and about bringing in some material that was definitely racist kind of imagery and objects. It wasn't any care. It was kind of like, this is just what we're doing today and I was, of course, the only black person only person of color in the space. As usual, and I was like, whoa, did had no idea that I was walking into that experience that day and just wasn't up for it to tell you the truth and it wasn't that wasn't the case with anybody it was kind of like I just had a problem. If I didn't want to participate in this activity because that was activity for the day. And there wasn't any allowance for this is not something I could do today or I would have liked to have a had it had a heads up on that this was going to occur. I think that so I think it's special and I think that's a good thing that's like a better kind of practice for like, you know, having an ethical code for how to handle these materials knowing maybe what we're handling when we're doing to do it why we're doing it that kind of thing. But that's not been my experience, unfortunately. I would like to ask Lestarsha. Have you had moments when you are alone, where you revisit the that the conservation of that of that item, I mean, where it comes to you and if you have that's pretty serious. That's some serious stuff. I think about that object, specifically when I talk to my older family members. So I, a lot of my family does come from rural Texas and that's where I was born and raised so a lot of my elderly family members have had direct contact with the clan in their in their histories or in their parents histories. So, to me that piece comes up during those conversations. And we have had discussions about like, I have participated in the preservation of this. And the reaction from them has been varied some felt that my work was something that shouldn't have been done that I should have allowed that piece to sort of rot in a corner and then some feel like you can't tell the full black difference in America, without having the physical evidence of the clan and everything the clan had done. So at this point I don't really think about the piece unless we are having those conversations, but I have thankfully been able to take away pieces that have very positive contacts and positive histories. So I think with me from that museum and get to think about those and see them in video and on the website and think about those good, good things and that's good history that comes from it. Thank you. I'm just going to make a quick comment I'm really happy that you had the support while you were working on conserving the object. I think that I believe that we can't work on a silo, especially with we're confronting charge material. And so I guess to answer the question in a sense I think that when we think about exhibitions that may have charged material, and then we try to bring in focus groups. And so even with your like you had for this particular instance. You know, the director, you all were able to discuss it. And so I think you tackle those problems by bringing in more voices to handle it. So in different perspectives. I'd like to bring up something that has happened in the news recently at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. And for those who do not know, they were seeking a new director, and the description just has quoted to maintain a core white art audience. So, I'm going to be Morgan who was initially hired to diversify the museums and galleries resigned in July and she wrote an op ed piece calling the museum culture toxic, mainly because of lack of training efforts to address racist racism and implicit bias. So this is a really clear example of a museum's blanket efforts and how can we as museum professionals call for action. In other words, what does this example highlight in terms of actionable items that we can do from this example. And I'm actually going to direct the question first to Latanya I know that on social media you've been vocal about this. So, if you want to take this question on. I think what's interesting to watch out with to watch what's been playing out or what did play out. Hopefully there's going to be a lot more because we do know the director of that institution resigned. But it was really only after there was significant external pressure like about 2000 people signed a petition calling on the institution to the he should be fired or he should be forced to resign, but they had several other points in there. And right now, none of those other things are really. There's no kind of news on if those things will be done the other things that they called for, and it's really so important to think about the larger issues, the structural dimensions that allow for that director to be in place in the first place. So, removing him is significant and it's a big, huge thing. Because most of the time nothing happens at these places, but why it happened is because it went public, and because they got a lot of external pressure. Now, Kelly had already wrote an article has said all kinds of things. They get that kind of outpouring of support, actually, and other people have have come out to and talked about things, and they do not get that kind of support they get, you know, certain things and somebody will write to you personally, but they're not getting that kind of collective support. So for real for changing any institution for real people have to work together a lot more museums. Other spaces with museums definitely are kind of retaliatory in terms of who is in power, and people do not like to be questioned. And so, a lot of times you see staff, very afraid to speak out. And the only power I think that people have in these places is by speaking out and doing it more collectively. I mean you could do it as an individual but like Kelly said it's really hard to do it by yourself. And I think what I think collectively is probably the main thing we have for getting change done, but it's still so hard because like 2000 people signing this letter and then they did one thing. And then the rest is like well we'll see. And I think that this is what happens at institutions have been brought in the, you know, had the spotlight on them, and if it's really really bad, they'll get rid of one highly problematic person who's probably just done all kinds of things and all the other things stay in place and we're not really looking at what are the conditions that allow that person to be there in the first place, those if those conditions don't change, of course that the culture remains the same at the place, overall. It was interesting that you talk about the culture. And I'm going to use one of my students as an example. In this past cohort, which was virtual, we combine the second and third one due to COVID. And at any rate, one of the members from the second cohort who had met with probably 200 museum professionals. And this particular instant had been meeting with about 25. After the call she talked about how you can feel an inclusive environment when you either walk into the space, or you log online. It's also about inclusivity. It's also about trans, the is also about being transparent. So I want to put that in one bucket. The other bucket that I think is really important to note so the institution needs to be become more transparent the board needs to be more transparent. But the other thing that that I think what Johnny just hit on just a little bit is that she can't let it rest. And so we talk about advocacy, those 2000 people that signed that letter. That's power, but it just wasn't 2000 people from outside the community. It was also people from inside the community, and also board members and that's where you see swift change. But the gaps in between that are periods where we stopped talking. And so earlier today somebody in the chat talked about how can, you know, we're talking about this curatorially and not about museum, I mean not about conservation science. I saw that I'm thinking the same thing I'm thinking now is that you can't sit on the sidelines. You can't sit there and focus in one area and say oh well I'm just a conservative or I'm just a curator, or I'm just a museum educator. You have to step out and be an advocate and ban, you know, and to say that this is not right. And this is what we could be. Now going back to the other side about transparency. That's about empowerment. So when you look at the director. You can tell that he worked in a silo or not the institution is working in a silo by using the language that was used. And so, so I just want to put that out there. It's a, you know, the more I look at that institution and more and more I think about what that institution may need and they need a healer and so I hope that a healer comes in to bring that community back together, because what's beautiful about this moment is that they're both engaged in the conversation. So they want to see a better future for their institution and that's the part that I find most interesting and most beautiful. I'd like to ask the panel a question from our pre submitted questions that I found pretty intriguing, but based on your own experience. What is the first mistake that we make as conservatives. I share experience to someone that I ended up learning about through a curate a conservator in University of Delaware, who had been asked to conserve an object that it was given to the community, like a public sculpture. And so she went to work on it. I can't remember the whole story so I might be getting a little wrong with this is basically the story. So it was a public sculpture was put outside and when the rain, you know, under the conditions of rain and so forth. It ended up becoming damaged by the materials that it was made out of actually weren't made to be outside in the first place I don't remember what it was made out of but it wasn't actually made to be outside. And it was an object that was given to the nearby neighborhood which the black neighborhood near University of Delaware, and people saw it is really, excuse me, as an affront and kind of like a continuance of the university, not connecting and not talking about the black community giving them the sculpture that ended up falling apart soon after being put outdoors. And, but when the conservator was hired to work on the piece. It was kind of like, this is the piece and yours, you know, to conserve it and bring it back as much as possible. I'm probably getting a language kind of wrong so please forgive me on that. Anyway, what she learned is that the community didn't want the object in the first place, and they were like, we really wish somebody would ask us about what we want. We don't care about you could serve in that object. We don't even want that object. And then it became an entirely different project that she took on that became about, you know, being in conversation with the community more and finding out what they would want, and then working with them to create something that was becoming a walking tour that they created and it was a whole whole thing. And I just thought it was a really interesting project to kind of witness I wasn't part of it I just kind of learned about it and went to some of the, the public forums about it, but this kind of thing who ever makes a decision for other people about what we're giving them, and what should be conserved who gets to make that decision in the first place for communities. So that was a long way to get to it but that was something I thought was really interesting. I definitely agree with that I feel in conservation we often put ourselves in the roles of expert and teacher, and not so much in the roles of student and learner in terms of coming in contact with communities and what their desires are in terms of conservation. I think it's so important like what you're just saying and I think it ties to what Jamal was bringing up a little earlier about the healer thing. And just so many people in the community had kind of came forth directly who live in Indianapolis right, and then also this broader community. I think many more of us actually need to be in dialogue about things. And really thinking with people and talking with people versus, you know, like you said Latasha thinking that we're the expert in speaking for communities. You know I agree I mean I think one of the things I guess that one of the biggest things problems that people make, and not just conservatives but people in general, is that we make assumptions. And so anytime, you know I think that we're in a position to make an assumption how about ask a question as to what you, you just did. So we're hitting 530 we're a little bit over, and there's so many questions happening in the chat and so much discussion happening in the chat I think we can gather some of these questions and send them to the panelists. But I'm going to put it over to Sarah for closing remarks. Thank you all so much for your presentations and your discussion and your contribution today. I just wanted to let all of our participants know that the recordings of all of the webinars from the social justice and conservation series are accessible on AIC is YouTube channel, and you can also view them on through the webinar portal on our website. And if you go to those portals on our website you'll also see additional resources on each of the webinar topics there so those resource guides were just added today. If you were registered for the previous webinars or if you want to go back to the portal from today, you'll find resource guides that list a bunch of articles and other places to look for further information on these topics. We'll also be sending out a brief survey to gather feedback on the series and we really appreciate your participation so that when we do future programming like this we can improve next time. I hope you all have a great rest of your day. Again, keep an eye out for an email coming with the link to the recording so you can share that with your colleagues, and we hope to see you soon.