 Welcome to the Valley Advocate Podcast, featuring interviews that take us deeper into the people and happenings on the local scene. For more podcasts and a closer look at what's going on in the valley, visit us at valleyadvocate.com. Hi, my name is Dave Eisenstadter. I'm editor of the Valley Advocate and welcome to the Valley Advocate Podcast. I am here with our staff writer, Meg Bantel. Hi. And today we have a guest, Karima Rizk, who is the owner of Cafe Bear in East Hampton. Thank you. Thanks for coming. Thank you. You're so exciting to be here. Yeah, great. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about kind of how you got started in the cafe business in the first place. Certainly. Well, I think I used to work in medical marijuana here in Massachusetts in Century. And one thing I noticed that was missing was the energy. A lot of people had serendipitous meetings and conversations, and they learned a lot. But you really can't hang out in a dispensary and keep the conversation going, and you can't plan to meet your friends there. So I wanted to create a safe, stigma-free space, not really a stoner stereotype, but something classy, something appealable to the broader public, and also socially responsible, something we can be proud of. I'm also focusing on a community-oriented model. I want to keep my economic impact local. So as much as possible, I try to source vendors, food, contracts, all those sorts of things, as much as possible, starting my home city of East Hampton, and then keeping it in the Pioneer Valley of Western Massachusetts. I'm also really excited about something really innovative, which is I want to bring on community owners from the public in my venture at Cafe Bear. What does that mean, like a community owner? So to launch Cafe Bear, I need to get investment money. And even in categories of cannabis, such as ancillary services, parts that don't touch the plant, we're cut off from getting loans or grants from banks. People are really reluctant to even associate it. And there's still a stigma, whether or not we want to realize it or acknowledge it. So many times, people who join this broad industry have to get financial backing from private investors. So before I go ahead and try to raise money through private investors, I want to invite the local community to be investors and have priority to that access of stock and capital. Do you feel like you have a lot of community support so far? I have been incredibly blessed. I love my hometown of East Hampton. It's a wonderful, vibrant town with so much possibility. And I've started my search and my exploration for this venture there. And I really did find both the community support and the political will. The municipal government has been excellent in helping me. And I think, broadly speaking, a lot of people want to see me succeed and want to see something like this come to the Pioneer Valley. It's a really good fit. I'm really interested in this kind of social aspect. You were talking about working in the dispensary and how these conversations were almost trying to happen, but there wasn't space for them to do it. I mean, what do you see as the importance of that social side of just people who are cannabis users, medical or otherwise? Absolutely. And I think even in your mentioning that, I think we should even include non-cannabis users in that. And really it's creating a safe space where people, adults particularly, this will be 21 plus, can come and have open, honest conversations about cannabis, about hemp, get factual, evidence-based information or experiential-based information, get access to classes, really good quality programming, especially in Western Massachusetts. Right now you can go to conferences and shows and classes out east in Boston, but out in Western Massachusetts it's really kind of like a desert land in the cannabis industry. Yeah. Yeah. And Meg, you just wrote a great story about the CCC, the Control Commission, moving forward with some kind of like the blueprint for how it's going to look and that cannabis cafes were not a part of that. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. Sure. That's right. So just on Tuesday, the cannabis control Tuesday, March 6th, the CCC and Mass finally voted on their regulations. And while we don't have our hands on those regulations quite yet, it does mean that the debating and public hearing period is over. So what they decided at a meeting last week was that the cannabis coffee house and licenses that would allow for social consent, cannabis use in other places too. People were getting really excited about cannabis yoga studios and movie theaters and all of these things that you might be more familiar with in Amsterdam. The CCC have decided to put off those licenses for, I think they said next February, a year from now, they might have a draft, but of course, given how regulations work, I hope that they're being honest, but it's hard to say if that is, in any case, it's not exactly a good sign. Yeah, but that would have been first in the nation, is that right? First in the nation, yeah. Even though other states have licenses for certain kinds of, bring your own cannabis to two spaces, there is no legalized kind of by one serving of cannabis to use on site in the U.S. Yeah, so I mean, it hasn't happened anywhere yet. Do you feel like Massachusetts could lead on this? I don't know, what are your thoughts on that? Absolutely. I have to say 2018 is an exciting year in the cannabis industry across the United States. We have new recreational markets like in California, Massachusetts, it's about to go online. We have new types of businesses. Meg alluded to social consumption in different models. Denver is undertaking a pilot program where there's actually a cannabis coffee house, but under the bring your own cannabis model going on. So there's lots of innovation in little silos across the state, in a patchwork of differently regulated states. But I'm incredibly honored and thrilled to be here, to be able to speak with you and to be part of the conversation, frankly. It's a fast-paced, rapidly evolving industry, but I think for those of us who are in it, it's incredibly rewarding. Yeah, fast-paced, after a long period of not being fast-paced, it seems like. Yes, there was lots of waiting. But in particularly, my perspective on that, and actually on the Cannabis Control Commission, I have enormous respect for them. And I think they've been incredibly transparent with posting all of the documents and minutes in an accessible fashion on their website. I also really appreciate the mindful approach they've taken to these hard discussions. For example, at one point they were talking about whether or not you could smoke marijuana indoors. And so rather than just accent, I thought it was really progressive to say, let's defer it, let's get through our manageable hurdles right off the bat, but let's come back to this conversation because it's valid. And you can see they're really examining the different issues. I believe the social consumption issue and the delivery-only models are also areas that are very valid conversations are having. You can see progress is happening at the policy and political level. So that's incredibly exciting. Few, if any, states really have the same conversation going around. So we will, in Massachusetts, be the first to have recreational marijuana sales here. And I think in a matter of time, we will lead in many of these exciting new kinds of businesses. And waiting for the federal government to catch up with us. We all hope. Yeah, you know, it's interesting to envision that kind of a market. And they talk a lot about, in the cannabis industry, about how once their individual frameworks, you know, the patchwork of regulations remove, then it'll shift more to a cash commodity kind of a market. So for example, you may see large-scale growing being able to be grown in like the southern or western parts of the state where naturally they have longer growing cycles and more favorable weather, and then being able to have interstate commerce. And that's another factor that limits the growth of brands such as Dixie's elixirs or, you know, different edibles and things. There's a lot of hindrance on growth because you have to apply in each and every state you want to operate. Right. So certainly, I think it is exciting, but one thing you mentioned, Jeff Sessions, with the decision of the coal memo, I think one thing that did instigate was the conversation. And all of our federal senators and representatives are now having this conversation in facing the reality of having tax revenue coming in live time and appreciating that tax revenue, but also having the difficulty that their state-licensed businesses could potentially be shut down by the federal government. Maybe we should back up and just talk a little bit about the coal memo. You wrote about the bed in Sessions decision. Basically, an attorney general before Jeff Sessions had said in a memo called the coal memo that even though cannabis activity and possession was illegal, they wouldn't be focusing on it. They is the gist of it, that they wouldn't be coming state by state to really look into it. Leaving it kind of more up to the states. Yeah, it was kind of just hands-off. So by rescinding the coal memo, Sessions kind of said that the state attorney generals could go forward and start more actively pursuing cannabis businesses as being criminal on the federal level. So what made that worse was that the attorney general in Massachusetts, Andrew Lelling, instead of coming out and kind of... The U.S. attorney. Right, so the federal attorney in Massachusetts. Other U.S. attorneys in other states came out in support of the cannabis industry. In their states, Lelling kind of said, it's illegal. I'm not... If you're doing illegal activity, we could come after you basically. And since that time, he's backed off a little bit and said that the opioid crisis is more on his mind than the cannabis industry. So I think that was a little relaxing for a lot of people, but largely they were disappointed in Lelling for not saying, your Republican governor has come around, your attorney, Marheely, attorney general has come around to the cannabis thing. People who weren't pro question four have since kind of supported the industry because they see the support it has statewide. And yet our U.S. representative was still kind of falling behind. Yeah, question for the question of legalized recreational, right? May I make a little quick comment actually about the timing? I think it's interesting, while Meg's talking about the timing of the decision of the coal memo and the impact. And we were just talking about the CCC regulations being formed. It's interesting the impact that that event in late December when Jeff Sessions made that announcement had the subsequent event in January upon the regulations in that process. That's for example, when we started to see social consumption and delivery being taken off the table. There were reports as well as a strong lobbying effort on behalf of some of the existing businesses who were pushing hard. Also in concert, many others who were in the government who were supporting the cannabis industry in general came out with a conservative swing against that citing Andrew Lelling's statements. And so that created a reactionary fear and conservative movement in the regulatory process of the recreational marijuana laws. So it just made all these people nervous and it kind of shut everything down or not everything but shut a bunch of stuff down that could have been, you know, we could have been leading on. It definitely influenced the scope of the regulations and how ambitious they were. Like you were talking about it makes people nervous or they had been feeling relaxed and like, you know, what was your emotional state on that month? Well, I think in general if someone's going to come into this industry they can't be the fan of heart and you have to expect a lot of rapid change and be able to be flexible and roll with the punches. So that said, I definitely actually had a plan be ready to go. This was one of those issues that, it was in a slam dunk and certainly the regulations were in draft form. So it could go either way and there were controversial elements of it. But I won't lie, it was like someone kicked me in the stomach. It was very disappointing because, you know, we see legalized coffee houses for example in Amsterdam for decades with no harm seemingly to their society. And here we are in 2018 a modern society where recreational marijuana is being legalized. So why can't we in some safe inviting fashion roll out our own versions of that into social consumption or other visions of that? And it's not even like it was not just no harm. I mean those were major tourist destinations for people going to Amsterdam. Absolutely. And I think it's important to point out too in the context of tourism that cannabis tourists have nowhere to go to legally consume. So they are still left in kind of the catch 22 where they can't go in their hotels. And they're not supposed to be in public, you know, on bikes or trails or anything in parks. And then they're also not supposed to be driving and medicating. We see in, if you look at Colorado, approximately their historical rate was 4% of tourists. So if you apply that rate to Massachusetts, that's over a million people we're talking about in the very first year of cannabis and tourism. So it definitely creates problems. Yeah, that million people coming to East Hampton you think? Well, I don't know if they'll all make it out there but one thing we're really excited about is I think a number of us have a vision for it to become like the Emerald Corridor. We're very close to 91. That's a good name. Is that your name? That is, actually. That's something I've been pitching since I've been speaking in front of the CCC all along, but I think of it in the same way that Humboldt County out in Colorado, sorry, excuse me, in California, the triangle, the different counties with Humboldt is known as the Emerald Triangle. We are a corridor known for our agrarian roots, strong Massachusetts marijuana connections in lore and history. And I think there's a little touch of liberalism and progressiveness that is a great recipe for innovation. And then of course in my city, 63% of the people voted in favor of marijuana. So there's definitely a willingness to have these kinds of businesses. And I think if you look at some of the cities that are already coming out, whether it's Greenfield, whether it's South Deerfield, North Hampton, East Hampton, Hoyoke, we're all strategically lining up and down the 91 corridor. Not to mention one hour to the west is New York, down to the south is Connecticut, and right up to the north we're sandwiched in by Vermont. So we have a great tourism opportunity and economics stimulus opportunity here. I just think that's great. It's like we've got the Emerald Corridor, we've got like a Greenfield, I don't know, it's just like ready made. It's a natural fit. So what I personally would love kind of going on that is in the same way Colorado's tourism authority has embraced cannabis. And I said, let's forget this is here. They're actually saying, hey, let's craft a classy message and use it for dollars, you know, to realize the revenue that's already coming our way. I would love to see Massachusetts have the foresight and strategically plan and work with the industries in a very acceptable, palatable way, a non-offensive way and a classy way. But certainly I think that the economic impact can be so much more pronounced if the messaging and the advertisement is there to back it up, right? I feel like that kind of leads to part of your mission, which is education. Do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, how you envision your space being involved in education? Absolutely. Well, education and as an extension of that, programming, classes, affinity groups such as women and veteran coming together, there's many reasons people come together and want to around cannabis culture. Specifically, I want to focus on the history, politics, culture, and other aspects of cannabis as well. You know, there's so many different places you can explore. I'm also really interested in international use of cannabis. For example, Morocco, Jamaica, Amsterdam, these are all places that have cannabis cultures and vibrant societies. And so it's really interesting and I think valid to look at the art, the movies, the culture, how people interact, anthropology, of how it works in other countries. And what better format than a coffee house? I mean, historically in Europe, in Paris, in other areas, the coffee house was the founding, the birthplace of the exchange of ideas. Revolutions were formed that way, philosophers talked, scientists. So it seems only natural as a wonderful space to have the extra food and beverage service sourced locally, of course, teaching our finest, delectable cuisine, but also have a fit-for-purpose big space where people can come together and feel safe. I don't know that people have a trusted area they can go. Right now, I think people kind of are coming out as cannabis users when they go to the dispensary, and they might see someone they know. And some of those first impressions, when someone sees a white collar professional or a teacher or someone, it really breaks down stigmas and stereotypes. Similarly, I would like my place to be a safe, classy place. And also, kind of I mentioned before, with a non-cannabis user, this would be a really comfortable place for someone who just wants more information, especially I'm really committed to fact-based and experiential education. So a lot of people put a lot of claims out there and there's a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. And I think that's driven by a lack of access to quality information. And I want to be a very welcoming, open area for anyone in earnest desire to learn or use cannabis or maybe down the road, they're thinking about it for another family member or for someone or themselves in the life to have that space to ask questions. Another example too with the veterans, they're a dear population that I get to work with. I really like them and they benefit so well. But it struck me that they're very isolated many times. And that kind of leads to the cycle of feeling depressed and it's not good for their health. Something that strikes me as a wonderful natural thing is bring them together. Why not? Under the guise and they can talk about how cannabis has affected their lives. And they need that. I think a lot of people, women too, we have many issues that are unique as women. And when you get together in a group with similar people feeling a similar way in a safe space, I think a lot of magic and dialogue can happen. Are there a lot of women in the cannabis industry that you've gotten to know? There are many leaders. In particular, I'm really in admiration, I have to say, of Shalene Tidal on the Cannabis Advisory Board and Chanel Lindsay as well. She's the Cannabis Control Commission and Chanel Lindsay is on the Cannabis Advisory Board. But they're great, wonderful, strong female minorities who are great professionals. And I think getting to see, there are many women in this industry. Cannabis is a little bit unique in that the ratios or proportions of women and minorities are higher. But that's changing and we have to pay close attention to that. Why is it changing? Because a lot of the people that are coming into this industry are from more traditional executive backgrounds, you know, folks who are accessing capitals. Let me back up, actually. It's a really high threshold of capital to run and apply for a license or a business in this industry. So, accordingly, you need those networks of finance and backing and education. And oftentimes, it is large majority corporate white men that are coming in and working on that. So, I think in hoping to keep the rates of women and minority active in this industry, we really have to be mindful. Certainly, I know for my own organization, both we're going to have local and diverse diversity hiring guidelines just because it makes you a better organization endemically. In the CCC finalized regulations was a stipulation that some, well, we don't have the exact details yet, but there was some allusion to the fact that they will have licenses prioritized for communities that have been worse affected by the criminalization of cannabis. Do you feel like the CCC is doing enough in that way to encourage, you know, people of color to... Absolutely. Well, not just encourage, but to open the door for them given the barriers that there are. Well, I think it's really good to pause even at that statement and just realize how blessed we are that in Massachusetts and our Cannabis Control Commission is actually offering equity provisions for licensing. I don't know of any other states right now that are doing that. And if they are, it is radically new. So that in itself as a nation, at the national level rather, sets the tone as to who we are and how we operate in Massachusetts. So I'm very proud of that. That said, is it enough? I suspect that there is going to be a wide gap between those in communities that have been disproportionately affected. Why? Because to be successful, to even get your foot in the door, you need to have a certain level of education. You need absolutely a lot of capital. I can't be the traditional sources of loans and other applications like that. And you need networks, strong networks. And typically in these communities, they are not going to have the same traditional networks that will help support these kinds of businesses. It helps if you have family. All those kind of socioeconomic factors that you look at, they all add up in aggregate to support someone to be successful in these kinds of ventures. So what would be potential solutions or what would help bridge the gap, I think in particular, are offering education. I know there are provisions in the CCC regulations for this. They actually set incentive awards. You could be a social justice leader in the industry to promote good behavior on the heart. On behalf of the industry organizations, but going into these communities and offering that. But that's not enough. I mean, I think you kind of need business development, maybe free hours from organizations. Out here we have Valley Ventures, which is a mentorship organization for business development. But they need those core skills. So really it's a comprehensive set of skills to get these people even in the door, let alone compete with all these other businesses that have very savvy, complex marketing and business plans, yeah. So there's a lot of work to do. But hey, it's pretty cool that we put that out there that that's our aspiration. My hope is that we can meet that. Yeah, and that financial piece. It feels like that's just the major difference between that and all the other industries that are out there. Absolutely. It's not seen as legitimate yet by the banks who have the capital. Absolutely. The very valid point. One point I've made to the Cannabis Control Commission is in my view, if there's no legitimate banking options for cannabis businesses, there's no legitimate cannabis industry in that you have to have access to, for money and capital flow, to be able to legitimately not launder money to be transparent and audit to run as a professional business and no other industry, even liquor, tobacco, any of these other things, even gambling, they have access to counts. For example, there's extra measures we can do to be like that. You can already see there's extra bars and hurdles to jump over, but a way to conquer that would be an extra audit, a voluntary one or extra measures, but still it really is stealth mode. And honestly, if you try to operate as an open, you know, someone who is, I'm a cannabis business, you know, to operate like that, you shoot yourself in the foot and you become the disadvantaged one. And so the quiet, discreet other businesses that are professionally moving along will just blow past you. So you have to be really clever and really mindful and look far ahead as to where you're going to go when you're going into this industry. Right. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming in. Maybe just as a final thought, you know, what can we expect to see at a cafe vert, you know, in the coming future? Thank you so much for asking. Well, I'm really excited to announce that I'm about to launch a crowdfunding equity campaign. And so in putting community first, I'm going to offer before I offer to any other investors to the community members, small investment thresholds or the opportunity for small threshold investments. What does that mean? That means anybody between $100 and $5,000 can pledge through the crowdfunding platform that's okay with ancillary cannabis businesses and can get stock and own the company. And so it's my vision that as businesses come in and as we profit, our community can profit too. They should get some kind of equitable access and a part of the industry, because they're going to bear the brunt of the tourists, the foot traffic, you know, safety precautions. So I think it's really important your plan has to start and end with the community. And I'm earnest in that endeavor. I really hope that in my mind, if all of East Hampton bought it out, that would be great. But I'm capping it at Massachusetts. We're kind of having staggering stages. So first few weeks will be East Hampton only. And then next two weeks will be Hampton and New Hampshire counties. And then we'll open up to Massachusetts. But we want it to stay local. So cool. Yeah, great. Well, check it out. We'll see you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to visit us at valleyadvocate.com.