 This is a show that we were supposed to record on the 1st of April, which some of us know as April Fool's Day. But when we sat down to sort of script the show, we found that none of the spools we were coming up with could match the level of comic quality that the real-life story of Indian football is sort of unfolding before us. So instead, we decided to wait a couple of days and do a proper show where we hopefully can discuss some of this story. My co-host, Arjun Pandit, had suggested that we start with a timeline setting up a context for this conversation and the story of Indian football where it stands today with two leagues, clubs fighting with each other, open rebellion in a way against the All India Football Federation. But it's a long story and the timeline is extremely complicated and our graphics team is still a work in progress. So instead, I'll start with the date, December 9, 2010. That was the date when we all received a press release saying that the All India Football Federation had signed on a joint venture between IMG, which is a global sports marketing giant, and Reliance India Limited, which is a company owned by Mukesh Ambani. The deal was the AIFF signing this joint venture, then known as IMG Reliance, as their commercial partners with the goal of, and these are their words, not mine, maximizing the sporting and commercial potential of football in India from grassroots to the professional level. As stated on day one, they have set up a new league and they've done all kinds of things in terms of, it's literally like they've said that it will look at scheduling, restructuring, and reformatting of domestic competitions. In addition, Reliance, IMG Reliance plans to develop, operate, and administer a new professional football league in the country. So as far as this press release goes from almost nine years ago now, things are going exactly according to plan. But what is the result on the existing structure of Indian football, the existing Indian football fans, the clubs that have been around for 100 years plus? To talk about this, we have Arjun Pandit, who's a regular on the show, co-host, co-founder, et cetera, et cetera, and very happy to have finally with us, Sharda Agra from Bangalore. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. So I'm gonna- Your football show is very, very exciting for me. Yeah, we're glad to have you because it's hard to find sane voices that are also happy to talk about some of these things in the current media environment that we're in. So I'll hand over to you guys, because my mind boggles. See, see, as things stand right now, so what's happening is to cut a long story short, it's a case of haves and have-nots, okay? Haves are your ISL, who are supposedly, and who are enjoying the publicity, and who are enjoying the bulk of, if I may say, investment and everything that's coming, and that is all that is good for football. While the have-nots are the iLeague, clubs in the iLeague right now, who are saying, look, we deserve the same kind of treatment. So because they feel they're not being given the same kind of treatment, they had requested, because fearing, that in the next couple of years, that they will become non-existent, they had requested a meeting with the president of the All-India Football Federation, Mr. Praful Patel, saying that, come, here are grievances out, right? As a result- So what are the sort of grievances? They're not happy with the way the structure is right now, yeah? They're not happy being second fiddle right now. In their own words, should you blame? Yeah, all those things. I mean, grievances being that you're making us play in the afternoon, you're making ISL teams play in the evening, so on and so forth. There's no relegation, promotion, our league wins, where it goes, what happens after that? You guys don't have any relegation, promotion going on, and so many other things. But then, what happened is, that no one from the AFF got back to them immediately. As a result, they said, because they had formed an association of all those clubs, they said, we will not play in the Super Cup. Because that, in their mind, was the best way to get the AFF's attention and to get everyone talking about this topic and a subject in which you have to give credit to all these ILEAG teams, they have invested in. Invested in a sport where money doesn't come back. So you have to give double the respect over there. Now the point is, the AFF finally said, look, we will get Mr. Patel to talk to you on the 14th of this month or the 15th of this month. So, then the ILEAG teams have said that being Minerva, there is I think Gokulam and there's Aizwal, because they had by then four-feeted their matches and given walkovers to teams in the Super Cup. They have said, okay, fine. Then you reschedule our games because if you're giving us the meeting, we have no problem in playing the Super Cup. To which the AFF said, No, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. You've already lost so much. First you play, then... Exactly. So as a result, seven or eight teams from the ILEAG have pulled out from the Super Cup. A meeting is happening on the 14th and the AFF has also gone on to say that sanctions will be in place for all the teams that have given a walkover in the Super Cup. Yeah, because that response is extremely quick. If the internet doesn't work in the stadium for five minutes, there's an immediate fine of 25,000 rupees that flies across the room. But responses, Sharda Ogra, the question I think is not so much the battle between leagues for primacy and for eyeballs because those are competitive battles that will continue. It's I think one of maybe a level playing field and the fact that there are so many vested interests who are invested in the promotion of one league over another, which is leading to this conflict. Do you sort of agree? Yeah, you know what it looks like. For example, just what Arjun was saying, this whole scenario in which it's played out that you're going to get fine for not playing because you asked to meet us and we didn't meet you. It almost becomes like a blackmail situation. That had they played, they were like, okay, you play, no, we don't need to talk to you. It's fine, you're in the scheme of things. So that's why we're kind of here. And I think the whole thing that is being seen is that they're being seen as two different products. If I can use that horrendous word that all old people of us, we get all agitated when people say product, they're looking at two different things and they're saying, look, that's the unglamorous, the unfancy side, but those are community clubs. That is where Indian football has survived all these decades, is the community club and everyone's talking about the really old Calcutta clubs as opposed to ATK. That's a classic situation. It's presented itself that whatever you do about all the smaller clubs, what are you going to do to ATK, Mournbagan, East Bengal? That problem is not going to go away because that's where a massive, like thousands of people are fans in a way that they can sort of burn down things and they get angry and they won't let that issue be settled so quietly. It's also a question of all the other issues about scheduling and the kind of matches they are. Even the kind of presentation on television, you just see what, if you have a really good quality match shown on HD and an ID game. And you're just crying. An ID game is paid in some spectacular venues. And you don't get good quality coverage on it and I'm sorry to all the people that are ISL champions, but the greatest stories in Indian football for the past, say, five, six years have come from I-League. From the league that nobody pays attention. Front page news when ISL FC won. The greatest story to come out of the ISL was an I-League club going up to the ISL and winning it. But here's my point. Here is where I differ with you guys. I see, you know, when we are talking about I-League, and agreed the big stories are coming from the I-S Wall is winning, Amin Erwa is winning, or say, what a real Kashmir is done, Chennai City FC is done. But you keep it aside in the story. And you look at the development of Indian football. I don't think you can say that the ISL is not aided in developing Indian football and moving it up the ladder, much more than what the I-League can say 10 years before that had done. Bro, we have covered I-League before. Where were you going? You weren't going anywhere. In the 2010 press release, Z-telefilms limited. I was working for Z-telefilms at that time. You know, the thing also is that the amount of money that was pumped into the game because of the idea, ISL. You say, okay, you need the ISL to be there to be this telegenic sort of thing that you can show. Had you given that much interest to all money? It's not that there's no money in Indian sport anymore. There is. Had you given that kind of interest? And, you know, it's the same two company, the same company that's running both these deep. But literally it's like, you know, one is the poor cousin and one is the person sitting on the throne. That kind of approach that is there. It's also a question of approach and, okay, you understand that the ILEE clubs can't bring you the big stars because they don't have the funds. But you have to find ways to kind of include them into the ecosystem. I think BFC, for example, is the best example of how you created this club out of nothing. Nothing, there was nothing here. You know, you had HAL and ITI culture in Bangalore, but there's no proper club here. They created it out of nothing. You know, they created a modern club. Of course, they needed a huge amount of money to do it, but they did it. It's possible that if you put the right amount of money, the right intention, things can change. In the rest of it, I'm just wondering that the money is great. What is the intention to the rest of Indian football? BFC sort of earned its stripes and whatever the phrases I've forgotten by winning the ILEE going to the ISL, winning the ISL and making two finals, you know? What are you trying to, what do you think? Sharda, would you agree with the fact that my point is, see, if you look at one single franchise in the ISL and you look back at the five years, you can say that each franchise is put in about 80 to 100 crores in these five years, right? Now, that includes your franchise fees that you're paying to FSDL, that includes the amount of money you're spending on players. So in about 100 crores, so that means about 600 to 700 crores has been put in by a franchise. Prior to that, you had an ILEAGUE, where you had a Sulgawkar, you had huge stories, you know? You had Sulgawkar, Dempo, you had the Calcutta clubs, but the point is that product was just not working. I mean, I think we should agree with that. Yeah, I think I'd like to... I have to disagree with that. Sorry to interrupt, Sharda. Because the ILEAGUE was on a definite upswing because everyone realizes that things have to change, that India has to assimilate with the global football economy and become a part of larger stories than just what's happening domestically. Like Calcutta League say, we had left ahead. And as soon as the ILEAGUE has come to the ISL, the biggest stories in ILEAGUE in the last five years have come since the ISL. So no one is... I think it's because of them though. No, it's not because of them. I agree, it's not because of them. I agree. Around it, around it. Yeah, it's around it. A bit of football mess that is there. But my point is before those five years, where were those stories? So if you're saying, I want to make an investment of, say, about 700 crores over the next five years, why will I make an investment in a league which has been running for, say, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, which has been knocking on the door but the door is not going down. Why won't I start something new? The thing is that the professionalization of football which BFC was able to show you, I don't know BFC's budgets and how much they spent in relation to the ISL clubs. But that professionalization is what you needed to kick the door down in a way, that door that you're saying, that professionalization is what BFC bought. And maybe, I did a story on football in Assam and they said, we want to be like BFC. So they had said to them, no honestly, we want to be like any of the ISL, we want to be like BFC because that's what they did. So that kind of that model of professionalism has come from an I-League club, which came about because, okay, they had a fight originator, you start with the ISL and all the rest of it. So you understand that there has been a lack of professionalism in sort of club football at various sort of parts. Again, great stories. You can make movies on what used to happen, but you accept that. But now you say, okay, this is what the situation is. How can we make them to merge together and mesh? And just before I finished, when the prime minister was going to make his announcement about the space thing, which we didn't know, we're all waiting, waiting. One of my colleagues says, I know what his announcement is going to be. One nation, one league. That's just like, and only the football people got it. No, it definitely is one nation, one league. And my big issue with your sort of logic of investing money, et cetera, et cetera is, I don't think there's anyone in the I-League system, the smaller clubs as such, that is negating the amount of money that people have spent, that is negating the fact that, maybe a larger number of Indian football players are able to make a more decent wage. No one is negating all these facts. Even the fact that, okay, therefore what it's worth, at least at the senior level, there are good training facilities, there are good coaches coming in, more coaches are getting educated, there are plenty of positives. But just because you have money, like this, the fact that the AIFF basically, singularly or single-handedly, decided to sell its entire house to a private company and outsource all decision-making. Like there's no longer, we were talking earlier and we were having this discussion that officially, at least all the decisions come from committees or members or the executive committee of the AIFF. But the fact is when you ask these guys and several AIFF officials have on the record said that the final decision, the final okay, has to come from our commercial partners. So essentially you're saying all this committee structure, democratic structure, elections, all of this stuff is just done for sure. When you are in this body, the decisions will be taken by our Maibab, right? Which is, and the other common factor, which of course- If it's helping in the development of Indian football, if in the last five years I've seen the development of the Indian player gone from level A to level B or to level, you know, beyond that, then you have to give respect and you have to give credit to the ISL for bringing in the kind of coaches, for bringing in the kind of professionalism as Sharda was saying right now. Given. But who was gonna do that before that? No, no. If you're coming in as a big stakeholder, you will put- If you are a big stakeholder- You'll say, okay, I want this and this in place if you want me to come in and make this kind of investment. I'm not gonna just come in and say, here sir, take this investment and do as you please with it. I'm gonna go, okay, I want A, B, C and D in my favor and then we can take the ball, we can get the ball moving in front. Sure, agreed. But does A, B, C, D include, include sabotaging your younger brother? Or whatever, the junior member of this family? Also, A, B, C, D is fine, that you want it up to A, B, C, D, E, F, G, you want it. Why do you want Z? Why are you taking control? You know what's happening? Is that A, F is saying, let's take it down. Let everything be handled by these people because they have money. Now, money is a part of football. As in, if Indian football has to grow, money is definitely needed. But money cannot grow over and above what are the parameters of how Indian football should be developed, how it should grow. And it has come through community clubs because they are all over the country in small little pockets. How do you work with them in that sort of module and create an environment in which it becomes much more sort of democratic in a way? Everyone will say, you know, you're being idealistic, money means no democracy, shut up. But you have to find a way to take all this energy that is there, in which ISL, you can say, okay, ISL has bought about this whole energy, about let's football and all the rest of it. You have to take that energy and make it work in many more ways other than only just holding big tournaments. You know, it has to be, it has to be a spread out at your grass roots in a far deeper way than it has. The ISL is called uparka. And all that decision making or all that planning cannot be done by these private entities who at the end of the day, they are commercial entities, they are commercial partners and they are clearly driven by a profit motive, right? So, which is not what the definition of a national sports federation or the role of a national sports federation is. The fact of the matter is that all these things fall under the larger purview of what is referred to as the Olympic charter or like the spirit of sport, et cetera, et cetera. Which of course we, and we contacted the Asian football confederation for comment on what is going on in India and their response was pretty much a straight up no comment. I don't know, you read into it what you like but essentially the stand would be that how domestic leagues and competitions are governed is a matter for the respective member association to deal with. So it's, if we think that there is some larger body that's going to step in and sort this out, it's not going to happen. I mean- Can I put a little more context to it? So basically last year, someone from the AFC had given a path of how Indian football should progress because at that time of course last year this two league problem was happening. So in that they had said that by the year 2022-23 you should be having a system whereas you have promotion and relegation. So that means by 2022-23 you should have a second division and a first division irrespective of what you call those divisions. So they had said that from 2019 to 2022 or 2018 to 2022 you will have one team that is a champion team of the I-League coming up and one team that is in every alternate year that is coming in through a tender that you have taken out a tender and saying through this franchise I'm going to now put in this much amount of money and you know that way. So that by 2022-23 you can have the relegation promotion system but as the AFC just replied to you right now in, you know, they said no comment. It's pretty clear that that is just a suggestion. It is on the AFF if it wants to actually take that suggestion forward or not do anything with that suggestion. So this entire thought process the AFC go chalo or FIFA go chalo is not going to happen because the same thing is happening in US football. They haven't had relegation promotion since 1996. Now the lower level teams are writing to FIFA saying do something about it but FIFA still date has not done anything about it and the US main league has now gone from to a 24 team league to now they're trying to make it into a 28 team league with people coming in who can guarantee a certain amount of money and investment to grow the team and to grow the players with it. Okay, so since you said this and Yola both, I mean Shadha you of course have covered cricket for a very long time. How much of this is the result of us basically trying to blindly transplant what we perceived as the success of the IPL into football? I think a lot of it has to do with that. The owners of the ISL own a team in the IPL, a single team and it became like, why can't we control the entire thing? What fun? And so it's that kind of but the two entities, the two sports have run so differently that both in terms of how their ruling bodies have operated, how they have worked towards building the game at the grass roots and as well as the response of the public to those sports, those have been so different that's why the result of what's happened in the ISL is what you see now that it's a reflection of what was happening in Indian football before the ISL was even there. But you've put in this thing, you put in this great product and you think it's done as Arjun is saying it's had its benefits for football. If you speak to players, look that for me to be playing against Miku for a goalkeeper to even be practicing against Miku means his game improved considerably than if he was practicing against just a striker who comes from from Africa or something. Yeah, so you can understand that but the rest of it, the BCCI's ecosystem wasn't placed when the IPL took place. It wasn't supplanted later on. It wasn't like tagged on later. That the BCCI hosts 2000 matches in a year. How many matches does the AIFF conduct of football? Do they know what those numbers are? There was a point at which we said the BCCI doesn't even know, I don't know, they still know. How many people play football? Are they, their players have only just got registered. This is all mind you, this is much newer than you think. If you're looking at it, you'll say about, it's about from the 2000s, mid 90s, it has started. So that other ecosystem was already there and therefore it started feeding in all these players into IPL that you've got all these and the new leagues have spun out and Karnataka League and Tamil Nadu even on it. So it's the rest of that ecosystem which has massive gaps in it in India, whichever way you want to operate it. If you want to have a national league and smaller state leagues or city leagues, you have to work it out. There has to be a structured calendar to how you're going to progress in Indian football. It's a bit random, I'm just looking at it from the outside. It's a bit random, you don't know how it's going to go. The whole thing about why is Rao Beke not in the Indian team and all that, they came like a big sort of thing that in cricket you won't have that happening because there is this proper ladder that is there. From this ladder you go all the way up sort of logically. And when the Minerva boys made it into the under 17, that was a reflection of what community football can do. Whatever Mr. Rajeev Pajaj's personality churns out from time to time, that's different. But it's that kind of, there has to be a structure to it. There has to be a ladder that's in place. And this is one of the biggest flaws in Indian sport that many sports, football is much better compared to if you go down the ranks and look at other sports. There's no ladder, people don't know where to go. There's no events to take part in. So you need to have those national level events and which cricket have that structure. That's why the IPL was able to move on and succeed. You brought up Ranjeet Bajaj of Minerva Punjab and he did a lengthy interview to another outlet superpower football recently where one of the things he's talking about is the sort of plan that this alternative association of I-League clubs has either proposed or created. 16 team league, I think, but 20 team league. Yeah, let's not get into the numbers but what he essentially was saying was if the commitment has been made to these founding franchises of the ISL that there will be no relegation promotion for them, we are even okay playing a unified league where only other non outside these 10, 12 entities, everyone else is subjected to relegation promotion. To say it, but Khuma Farah's car stops at your expense. No, your car stops at your expense but their stance is that I can do it cheaply. You can feed me, I'll show you how competitive I am. You take out the early franchise fee which I give to the association, make it, put it down to 2 crores. Not to the association, Baba. You don't give the... No, no, to FSDL to run the leagues. He was saying that 8 to 10 crores that these teams have been giving for the last five years. Bring it down to 2 crores so people like us can even come in and play in that league. Now, the point is you take the other eight franchises who have already put 10 crores, so 50 crores over the last five years, they've been guaranteed that for the next 10 years you will not be no relegation promotion fine but they'll say what is this yet? By a week even 50 crores and now you're suddenly letting someone else come in for just 2 crores. I have two answers to this. One, like having still continuing with the five-year more period of no relegation promotion is kind of a parachute that says, okay, thank you for your initial investment. You get this in return. Secondly, you have millionaires on one side which is guys who are running iLeague clubs and billionaires on the other side who are running ISL clubs. Surely billionaires can suck it up and spend another couple of hundred crores. How much you should be able to... If football clubs is the only way these guys are trying to make money then I'm sorry, someone in their financial advisory team should come and say, boss, this proposition is wrong. Football clubs do not make money. Which is why I am saying that we can do as many shows, we can do as many protests as possible. Nothing is going to change till the first 10 years of the ISL are not completed. Once the first 10 years are completed then you can think of a single league. Before that, don't think about it also. This is what I want to think. In that time, these smaller clubs have to survive basically. Correct? And now you are saying that you were talking about the ISL Siddharth, about the iLeague. Now you have got these 8 teams in ISL. 8 or 10? 8, right? 8, 8. Right. So, you have got 8 teams. I am not sure. 8 or 10. No, 10, 10. And each of them has a roster of about 30 players. So, you have 240 players. Taking part in the most seen and the most visible Indian football league in the world. But is that only the 240 players that are going to have a chance to make it at the top level? What about the other 100s and 1000s of kids that are playing? They should have somewhere to play, which I talked about the structure. They should have somewhere to play and where they will be seen. Why can't the television production quality be as close as possible to be as? You don't want to spend money on it. At least allow that other league to find its own commercial partners, to develop its own television. Let them go. I mean, if the only democratic space that still exists is the internet, let them go digital. Let them find someone. See, I don't know why everyone is making a human cry about iLeague has been given this step, child type of treatment. Prior to the ISL. Now I have covered the iLeague for a long time prior to the ISL as well. Matches were still happening in the afternoon. Matches were still happening. Your 50 people in a stadium and a big crowd coming in for Mohan Baga and East Bengal. So in that, matches were still happening where television was only covering a handful of games. So what has changed? What's the change? What's the change? But should you do better? Should you not want to improve because you've shown how good quality coverage, what it makes television look like? You've shown? But Sharda, that is Indian football. You can't accommodate it for so many teams, right? If you want the league to grow, how can you do it for say from an 8-team league, 10-team league which gives you a certain number of matches in a year and then you accommodate another 10 or 15-team league? It's possible, brother. I'll tell you, I just said how you can do it. Yes. Throw it off your large sports network and give it to somebody else. It's a simple thing because what's your problem? You're already spending so much money on IPL. If you're spending 16,000, 17,000, 50,000 crores on IPL, then what will you have left for other sports? There will be very little left, right? Out of that, you'll choose pick and choose. Hockey will no longer be on any national network. In any case, God knows who was watching hockey, but that's a separate story. But so many of these things, like the point is, I think for me, is that this desperate desire to control everything cannot be the way in which we should be allowing, as fans of Indian football, the all India football federation to function. FSDL is a private company. What they do should be governed by the laws of the company's act or whatever it is that governs them. Fine. And they should pursue their motives and their sort of objectives to whatever the fullest satisfaction of their shareholders. But as shareholders in the all India football federation, we should be making certain demands. And it's really remarkable to see, finally, that these relatively small fish have managed to band together and stand up against what is probably the largest corporate entity in this country today. It was outrageous to me that the head of the AIFF was seen getting some executive council post at FIFA when your own clubs are saying, sir, we want to see you. We have written two letters. Please can we meet you? I mean, they are your shareholders. They are your partners. They are not your like slaves. You know, they can't be given this kind of treatment. It's just, it's completely outrageous that he doesn't have time, he's campaigning. This is why they say politicians should be in places. You are going to campaign for elections when your clubs are fighting. It's a, that's your, the clubs are the bread and butter of your sport. However, ordinary and mamuli and low revenue clubs, they are, they are asking you for an audience and you won't give it. Who are you? You know? Fans, fans, fans are like that at the end of the, See, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I'll, I'll, I'll just put it out there for you. I am someone who loves Indian football, who loves football, right? Now, till about a certain number of years back, prior to the ISL, I thought Indian football is going nowhere, as far as club football is concerned. I've tried playing club football. I never made it, it wasn't good enough, but I've seen it from the inside and I've seen how it works and it was literally going nowhere. Though a lot of people might disagree with me and say this was, but if you look into the larger scheme of things, right, where you're competing against a sport like cricket, I'm not saying you should have competed them toe to toe, but if you're competing against a sport where, or to a country which is not used to football. If for that, you're saying Das Sal, from your entire history, I am taking out 10 years for this infighting and this confusion is going on, but because of that, in the next 50 years, we're going to reach another level. I am game with it, Bhai. I have no problem with it. I know I'm not putting in the money, so it's easy for me to say it right now. I'm not putting in money like a Minerva or I'm not putting in money like a Real Kashmir or something, so it's easy for me to say it. But I'm saying in the larger scheme of things, if I feel that my team is going to go, or the structure of Indian football is going to go to a better place and for that, I have to say give away 10 years, 10 years of infighting and confusion of who's playing who, or which is the top league, then TK, I have no problem with that. See, that's a sound thing that you're saying. What you're saying is a sound thing that you can have this cover, but at the same time, it's important for this churning to be there and for smaller voices to be saying, hum bhi hai, hum bhi hai, hum bhi hai. Listen to us, listen to us, listen to us. It is important for that to be enough noise and for that to be a response to that noise because that is your base from where your players are going to come. I'm not an expert in Indian football. I've just started covering for this thing, but I find the unequaleness of it is really baffling to me because of the fact that there are many great things, but because of the fact that there is this, how can your own ruling body treat the sport like this? So what you're saying is, Siddharth Singh is correct, that you can't submit everything to one private financial partner. Business is business, fine, great, but football doesn't have to be everything about business and money. It's about whatever, development and all the other things that are there that come along with it. The unfashionable, unprofitable things that come along with development and football. Pretty solid note on which to, I think, wrap up this conversation. Otherwise, we'd go on forever and ever. Any final points or anything you'd like to say to conclude or are we going to go with that? No, I guess this is going to be a tag team against me, but it was a good, good conversation nonetheless. I think you had an inkling. I was going to say, at the point when you're talking about accepting roles in FIFA and also accepting sort of the rights to host the forthcoming FIFA under 17 women's championship, which is a fantastic thing. I think it's like really laudable that India is willing to put its taxpayers' money behind promoting women's football or girls' football in this case, as it is. But doing it in this environment where we should insert that in nobody got time for that lady into it, because you're on the one hand just pushing these people aside and nowadays it's called brazening it out. I think it's just what we used to have said all along. It's just being ostriches and hoping that it will go away. Stick your head in the sand and hope for the best. But yeah, I mean, I don't know how to conclude this, sorry. That thought didn't go anywhere. No, no, but I agree, man. I mean, I have nothing more to add. I've said whatever I had to say. I still stick to my guns saying that, look, I agree with both of you are coming from the fact that you can't ignore the smaller stakeholders. And to that, I feel they're not being ignored. Why? Because before the ISL came out, it was the same kind of league. There was nothing different about it. There is no change about it. It's not like, you know, prior to the ISL, you had night. No, it was my own. But I'm saying from a federation point of view, there's no change in the way you're playing the league. Now you're just saying, oh, now you have another league, which is playing in the evening, then why are you not extending us there? So, I guess let's conclude on this note that whatever sort of branch of management you are in, whether you're running a company or you're running a federation or you're running a constituency, if you cannot get re-elected by democratic means, if there's no change over a eight-year or 10-year period, if things are still the same, then maybe it's time for a change of leadership. And we'll leave it at that. And maybe I'll see you next week. Maybe we'll see you in 10 years' time when everyone has changed. Thanks for coming. Well, thanks a lot. Thanks so much for listening to me rambling and had a great time. Thank you very much. Can I have the final word? Absolutely. Let's football. You forgot the hashtag. Thanks for watching, guys. See you next week.