 Welcome back to the Breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. We are now moving to conversations on security. And the question really is, is Nigeria losing territory to Boko Haram? A member of the House of Representatives from Kano State, Haruna Dideri, says Nigeria is losing territories to Boko Haram insurgents. He said this at a sitting of the House Committee on Judiciary. There are many questions to be asked and of course the big one is, is this true? How do we also deal with Boko Haram, especially with our stretched security agencies? And is Nigeria's security architecture due for restructuring? Well, speaking this morning with a journalist with more than three decades of experience covering security issues across Nigeria, Ben Okizye has joined us on the show. Good morning and thank you for joining us Mr. Okizye. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have you on the program this morning. Thank you very much. All right, so I'm going to start with asking, there was reports that about two weeks ago there was an attack on a town at Damasak in, yeah, Damasak and of course that led to killing the Nigerian citizens and, you know, there's also reports of Nigerians fleeing into Niger Republic. The Nigerian army a couple of days after put out a statement saying that the Damasak is not currently under Boko Haram's control and it was an attack that was repelled by the army and some of all those reports are untrue. But you know, this, you know, takes us back to, you know, a lot earlier in 2013-2014 there were tales of Boko Haram controlling numerous territories and local governments in northern Nigeria. So from your, you know, analysis and what you've heard, can you give us, you know, an idea of what we currently might be dealing with, with regards to Boko Haram sect and how much, you know, power they still have in Nigeria? Yeah, thank you very much. Are you hearing me? Yes, we are. Go ahead. Okay. Thank you very much. I have been to the Northern Fringes thrice three times. When you were talking about Abda, I slept there in the house in the palace of the Emya that was sucked by Boko Haram and I slept in an open, you know, when you sleep in a room where the roof, there's no roof at all. So these are some of the experiences one had as a prime journalist, you know. The thing we've got to understand about Boko Haram is that Boko Haram has stopped being a Nigerian issue, so to say. The only thing they do now is they extend hands of money, full of money to our Nigerian youths who are not employed to join the group, but majority, most of the people are from the West African countries, so from Libya. You've got to understand when Bubaka Shakao extended hands of fellowship to ISIS International and ISIS International had to sort of create what they call ISIS West Africa. It's ISIS West Africa that we are dealing with. I was speaking on a radio, a foreign radio and I explained to them that most of the insurgents are coming from most of the West African countries where they are having issues of unemployment and not until some of these things are handled by state governments, I mean state governments, we might not be near peace. We might not be near peace. And just recently the president of Nigeria made a statement that he would want to, the president of Niger Chad Idris came visiting and there was an agreement that they had a need to collaborate network with other neighboring countries so that they can have a fortified front against Boko Haram. You've got to know that there are three fronts now. We have the one in Cameroon, we have the one that is facing Chad and we have the one that is facing the Republic. So that's why they created the multinational joint tax force, good enough that is being handled by Nigerian military general. So some of these things are things that those in power are fully aware of. You've got to also know that the president's chief of defense staff, maybe that is why he was picked to be in charge of, as the chief of defense staff, that's Major General Lofi Rabu, you know he was in charge of Operation Lapua Dole for a long time. He with his men were responsible for the recapturing of 18 local governments that were hid at the hands of Boko Haram. So I'm sure they know virtually all the things that are happening. Just yesterday the president came back and made a statement that the security chiefs now know the problem of security personnel in Nigeria. So now that they know, we want a quick solution to all these things. Okay, so let me come in here. Before 2015, there were cases of suicide bombings. There were cases of buildings being bombed, explosions and all of that. And then territory has been taken by terrorists. So this administration came in, gains were made, no more suicide bombings and all of that. But that doesn't take away from the fact, staring us in the face right now, that there are jail breaks, there is banditry, kidnappings and all of that. The security situation in Nigeria doesn't look too good. So let me take you back to the very first question. Like the lawmaker said, is Nigeria losing the fight to terrorism? You know, in war situation, if you've been close to when there is war, there's always the high points and the low points. Sometimes when the boys, that's the troops, are well-gained, when they are given all that they need for that particular situation and they have a leader that is always there for them, a leader that gives them all that they need for that operation, you see them in high spirits. It happens even with our local police, you know, when the mobile policemen are giving all that they need for an operation. You see them shouting, you know, those type of shouts, you know, to ginger them up. So there are high points, there are low points and then maybe the low points are when they discover either some of the things they need are not provided for them, either by the institutions or by the government. And these are some of the things that can bring down the morale. And of course, when any of the leader, you know, is brought down, you remember there was a... Let me start. Ben Okazi. Ben Okazi, apologies. Our conversation is, well, hopefully we'll get to talk about the morale of the soldiers. What we're trying to establish this morning is, are we winning the war against insurgency or not? Where are we currently? Do you think that Bukoram still holds territory and if they do, what does that mean, you know, with regard to our fight against insurgency? There's a lawmaker right to say that there's territory currently being controlled by Bukoram and we might be losing the war. The lawmaker is a politician, first and foremost. He does not have all the necessary understanding of how to judge a war situation. And if it were to be a security man, a military man, I would need to eat. But once he's a politician, I don't think I want to, I want to, until I go there myself, I can't listen to the military people making their own submission. When I travel to that place or I get in touch with sources over there to really get the real true situation, then I would not be able to. It can just be that in the lawmaker's local government, maybe just one particular area that was hit, then he will not use that one to generalize. Nigerians are very good in generalizing. You know, I was listening to you when you were talking about the state, you know, the people on ground are given a different figure, but the governor is given a different figure. So people like to generalize on some issues like this. So but as a security writer, I don't go with all those things, I go with specifics and with facts before I can make comments on certain things. For the point that it's from a politician, I will not take it as complete this. Yeah, share with us your own specifics and facts from what you know. Do we have territory that is currently under control of Boko Haram? Is Nigeria winning the war? I don't think so. You see the thing is that, you know, bandits, I mean, terrorists are just like, they are just like armed robbers. Armed robbers study situations of security personnel before they strike. I've written a book on that, Dark Clouds, you know, you can go for it, you know. They study the situation of security men. For instance, if in a state like Lagos, let's say there was a change in security personnel, like the command, the command, uh, uh, police commissioner, there's a change. You see that particular space of time, armed robbers always strike. If there is a situation where they notice that policemen are not, the morale is very low. Armed robbers will always strike. Go back to the time of Shinorambo. You will know what I'm talking about. So if the strike does not mean that they are in charge, you know, that striking can be repelled by our own security men. And of course you know that many things have been put in place now. Most of the service teams, they have given the word that they are going to, you know, break them. You don't expect them to also sit down and look and then expect to be looked at out. They also are well armed, just like our own military is just the tactics and the strategies that really matters in this because our own military are trained for war. They are not trained for war. That is the density. We can sit here and based on a man's perception of what he thinks and then we just, because I believe that that statement was that there is an escalation of it, there is a generalization of it and that we should not take it and these things can hit up the system, you know, and it can hit up the system and it can also demoralize the boys. And these are the type of statements that security agencies don't need. When they do wrong, we tell them you are being wrong. We tell them you are not being the best. When the morale was getting low, people talked and we mentioned it that these are not going the way it should be and they picked up and then we saw success has been, you know, so when there is success, we should applaud and then, you know, make them to know that they have a duty to perform on behalf of the country. Successes should be applauded, right? But there's something you said earlier on that the terrorists are very well armed. So we've had cases of Nigerian soldiers fleeing in the face of a superior fire power, right? And not so long ago, the BBC had said that the NSA said past service chiefs had not used money is dispersed for the purchase of arms, even though he denied it, said his comment was taken out of context. Do you think the Nigerian army is well armed to take on terrorists? I'm sure that I got a report about some new ammo carrying, that is a particular type of machinery that military men used in the war front that our own army were able to get recently. So some of those things we learned, you know, boosted the morale of the boys after the death of that corner and there's no way we can say that our boys are not having enough good, the type of firearms that they need. The thing is that the strategy that we are talking about here, you know, when the way the monkey moves about in the forest, that is the way the hunter, you know, also strategizes to catch the monkey. That's exactly what is happening there. You've got to know there is what we call asymmetrical warfare. It's not the type of face-me-I-face-you type of war that was fought during the Biafran war. This is a terrorist type of war that even other countries that are more and more suspected of Nigeria, you know, go through hellish time, you know, to subdue. We're just hearing that the president of the U.S. is asking that his men should start withdrawing from Afghanistan. You've got to know how many years they've been there fighting that particular war in Afghanistan. So it's not something that it does. The terrorists, they are internationally linked and whatever they need, they can easily request and get it. That is just to block all those sources of supply. If we're able to block all those sources, that is where all the synergy, the networking of all the governments of West African countries is needed so that they can do a better job. Now God, Idris was a former military general that's the president of Chad and then our own president is also a former military general. So when they put their heads together, I'm sure many things will happen. We pray that now that the president is back, that, you know, he must have washed his hands from the sideline, why he's resting. So you talked about change of tactics and all of that. Is there a possibility that these terrorists have changed tactics and now, you know, acting as bandits, kidnappers, herders, is there a possibility? And if that's the case, do you think this is now overwhelming security agents? The issue of Banditry, I have said that many times, these are the fleeing Boko Haram terrorist gangs that have been defeated. They have to find a way to escape more onslaught on their lives. So when they move in, in Thailand, into Nigeria space, what they now do, you know, when they flee, they flee with their firearm. Nobody checks whether they dropped their firearm or not, just not like our own Nigeria. If a soldier lives, you know, he has to go and report and keep his firearm, but the bandits, when they flee from the war zone, either because they are defeated, or when they come in, in, in, in war, what they do now is that they now extend their hands of fellowship to other criminals in the internal space. And when they meet with them, that is where you see all this Banditry that is already happening because some of the bandits that we know that they are, some of the governors that have confessed that when they were talking with the bandits, they said they are, they are from the state, they know where they live, which means they are not from outside. So most times when they come, like when they join hands together like that, they also have other criminals from outside the country who fled into the country to come. We, we were reliably, we reliably recite that during the, during the election, many of them came in and then there were reports that they came in from the North Ames Square, Niger and Oto, and these guys like Aosas and the Fulanese to come and vote and all those things. And then those are some of the, many of them stay here and some of them don't have anything to do. They are criminals. So when they see this type of opening, they, they join hands together and then that's where you see the escalation of criminality amongst them. But it's now left our own security agencies to study the situation and know how to get at them and strategize to, because you cannot use the same system to fight them. You must continuously be changing your, your tactics and strategies. Well, we've been re-strategizing for about a decade now. We've also had different tactics. We've had different chief of defense staff, chief of army staff. We've had, you know, a lot of all those changes, you know, we're still having conversations. I, I, I, I, I, I uh, I have a terrorism how many decades? For a long time. You got to Southern Africa, Somalia and Paul, you know, how many years. And you go to Indonesia, how many years it was not there where we're now. We're, we're it has all those things. The thing is that it's just for us to be more strategically positioned to be able to know how to handle these things. It's not the terrorism that we have. We have somebody who is on top of the... Yeah, it's not a terrorism Olympics that we're doing here. We're not necessarily trying to be... We're not trying to match with other countries because they've done it for 12, 15, 20 years. It doesn't mean that Nigeria should also live in the same situation security-wise for 15, 20 years. The fact that the United States went into Afghanistan in 2001 and we're still talking about them pulling out now doesn't mean that Nigeria should do same. We've had investments in our security architecture. Billions of Nigeria has been put in there. We've had new strategies. We've had new people taken over those positions. But we are yet to see an actual end to the war against insurgency. You've spoken rather about the places where there are loopholes. How do these people get weapons? How are they funded? You also mentioned that they are coming in from other countries, according to your analysis from Libya, you mentioned, from Chad, from Niger, from Cameroon. There's all those fronts that you've mentioned. But we've had about a decade to deal with this issue. We've had a decade of these conversations. In what ways have we been successful? Where are we currently? Do Nigerians feel safer in any part of the country, especially in Northern Nigeria? The lawmaker is saying that people are running away from Damascus and fleeing to other countries. We also talked about Ogunstate not long ago that there are persons who had to flee across the border because of security challenges also. Haven't we had enough time to deal with this situation? Haven't we had enough time to at least find out the sponsors of these terrorist groups? Haven't we had enough time to at least find out where these weapons coming from and block some of all those entry routes through which these terrorists get their weapons? Haven't we? The bulk stops at the table of the president. He's the commander-in-chief of the armed forces and he's the president. Now crown god is a former military general who has also tested war. There's no two ways to audit this. It's just for them in those offices to do the right thing. Many security personalities, strategic explanations that they know that these have been said and they've given us their word now. They've changed the service chiefs. The service chiefs have given us their word that they are going to end this thing. They've changed the police chief also. He has given, he has re-strategized this morning. He has changed some of the arcade systems that the former IG was using. He was in the system and now he has studied everything he knew. He knows that there are some areas that are not. Look, let me tell you, the issue of banditry is not meant for this military. Banditry is an internal security issue and it should be handled by the police completely. We have analyzed this thing and said that police has all that it takes to flush out banditry and thank God the present IG has affirmed this as when he was talking with all the AIG yesterday. He has affirmed that banditry is their own responsibility and that he is giving Nigerians that word that he is going to flush them out. So the thing is talking and then backing it up with action. So if these things are joined together, Nigerians should be hooked. We should not feel discomforted that things are happening like this. Yes, things are happening but nonetheless these leaders in Rabbo was at the war front before. The IG has been in this system. Both of them has given Nigerians that hook and with the president. Providing all that they need, we hope that Nigerians should give a sign of relief very soon. Because I trust in their judgment. I have been there. I have worked in the post separatists. I know the present IG. I have been to the war front. I know the former chief of army staff. There are people who have done things that they have shown results. So we should give them that opportunity again. I believe that the president has also seen that these persons are expectedly capable. They are trained well enough. They have years and years of experience in dealing with war situations undoubtedly. But results are what Nigerians need to see. And when we are talking results, regardless of whether they are called bandits, headsmen or terrorists or Boko Haram or ISWAP, it is still at the expense of Nigerian lives and property. And regardless of whatever name you give them, there is a security agency that is set up to address these issues. What do you think we lack and we have lacked for so long that might be making it difficult for us to address security challenges? I started writing the Sun newspaper every Thursday when I analyzed security issues. And many years ago, I came up with the issue and I said, what Nigerian needs is starting, what is there already known? State police. We must have a state police. Ashwajitunumbu bought into it and he has studied it and he knows that is the right thing to do. Proma president Ibrahim Babangida bought into it and he knew that is the right thing to do. The president vice president has bought into it and he knows that is the right thing to do. Now we are waiting for the government of Guarito to make sure that these things... Alright, we are struggling with the network with Ben Ukezi. I think we are going to have to wrap it up here. Thank you very much. Mr. Ukezi is a security journalist of many, many years. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us this morning on the breakfast. We are sorry we are unable to bring you our conversation on inflation and the high cost of food across Nigeria. We hope that we can reschedule that for sometime over the weekend or Monday. But we will take a short break when we come back. We are moving into something a little lighthearted. Wale Scott will be joining us. Stay with us.