 Think Tech Away. Civil engagement lives here. Welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone on Think Tech on Spectrum OC16. I'm your host, Arby Kelly, and I'm here today with a very good friend of mine. And I am so glad she's come back. Now last time you were here, we talked about networking. And we talked about some of the things that people struggle with at networking, that I struggle with at networking. And if you remember, I was here with Pam Chambers, one of Honolulu's top 10 most admired women. Pam, thank you so much for being here again. I'm so happy you're back. I love becoming a regular. I know, right? I feel like we should call it the Pam and Arby Show. Once a month, on Tuesdays, it'll happen. Thank you. Alright, but for those of us, those of our viewers who haven't been watching, can you explain a little bit more about what you do? I am a presentation coach. And so what that means is that the way we present ourselves, whether it's physically, verbally, through email, through even now texting, at a dining situation, at a job interview, the way we present ourselves is how I help people. So it could be group settings, it could be one-on-one, it could be classes open to the public, or a show like this. Well, thank you for coming in and being on the show. Now, when we were talking about networking, we talked about that initial contact. Where you're meeting someone for the first time, you're exchanging cards, the do's and the don'ts. But we also kind of did a little teaser about what we want to cover today. How to take that initial impression to the next level. So I'm just going to pass the floor over to you, Pam, and just let you start. Alright, well thank you. So it could be that you decide, I have something more that I want to do with this person. This person and I have something in our future together. So I want to connect with you in person about that. So it could either be a coffee date or a lunch date, but I want to make it a lunch date because that's a little more complicated. It's a little more out of the comfort zone for some people. So can we pretend that I want to connect with you? Sure. Alright, so I have her card, Arby's card, and I have some business ideas I want to discuss. So I'm going to phone you up. I'm going to stop making eye contact with you because we're on the phone now. There's a wall here. Right, okay. Ding-a-ling-a-ling, sound of phone ringing. Hello? Is this Arby? Yes. Can I help you? This is Pam Chambers. We met at the networking event the other week. Oh, hi, Pam. Hi. What can I do for you? Well we had such a stimulating conversation, I thought, and I have been thinking about some mutually beneficial ideas that I would like to discuss with you, and I wondered if we could have lunch next week. Sure, that sounds interesting. Okay, now I just made a mistake. What I did was I said, I wonder if we could have lunch next week. That does not convey that I want to host you. That's true. So in your mind... Now there's confusion. Am I paying? Are you paying? Exactly. The initial thing of that phone conversation created confusion and discomfort, probably, because you don't know what that means. So right away, I have not been mindful of you and I've created a little bit of a problem. And I could actually feel that. When you said, I wonder if we could have lunch sometime next week. There was a little bit of ambiguity there, and I was like, okay. Right, and you don't know what it means. So I need to say, I would like to take you to lunch next week and discuss some ideas that I have. And I like that better than I wonder if we could. Yes, I would like to take you. Okay, now I'm going to make another mistake. Okay. So I'm going to say to you, what couple of days do you have available next week? And I'm immediately going to pull out my calendar and be like, say two days. I've got Thursday and Friday available next week. Okay, Thursday, sound of calendar, turning pages. Thursday. Oh, I am booked on that day. What was the other day you said? Friday. Friday. Oh, that's no good either. Okay. So this mistake right away. See, I asked you to name the days. That puts me in the position of being, needing to say no to you. Right. Which is awkward because I'm like, hello, do you want to take me to lunch or not? Right. I mean, why did you even call me? No, no. So unfriendly. So I need to say, would you be free next Thursday or Friday? That way, if the answer is no, at least I'm the one being told, not you. And that does make it easier because if all of a sudden you've called me up and you want to take me to lunch and I'm like, okay. And then you're like, no, I can't do that. No, I can't do that. No, I can't do that. Right. That kind of confuses me and it puts me off a little bit. Absolutely. So I would say, what two days do you have available next week? So say some. I have Wednesday and Tuesday. Wednesday and Tuesday. Otherwise known as Tuesday or Wednesday. Yeah. Okay. I could do Tuesday. All right. What time? Good. What time is good for you? I have an opening between 11 and 12. You have just half an hour. 11 and 12? Oh, you have a whole hour. Okay. Okay. Good. So Tuesday at 11. Here comes another mistake. Okay. Where would you like to go? Now this is a mistake for multiple reasons because one, I am relatively new to the island. I don't know where to eat at all. So I also don't know where you're located versus where I'm located. So if you want to meet in Honolulu and I'm actually located in Ewa, then that's a whole other hassle. So when you say where do you want to eat? Well, and you don't know what level of restaurant to choose. So you don't know whether to err on the side of cheapness. McDonald's. Yeah. Or L&L, McDonald's or L&L. But I want you to be saying something like Murphy's or Square Barrels. Yeah. But I made it so open-ended that now you're uncomfortable again. So this is not going well. I need to say, I was thinking of either Ryan's or Kincaid's. Oh no, those are closed. I was thinking of either Panya or Tango at word center. Well, the first time we did meet, you asked me to meet at word center and I actually didn't know where that was and you had to give me directions. Right. Which was helpful because now I know where it is. Okay, so Tango or Panya? Tango or Panya. You know Pam, I'm actually not familiar with either of those. All right. I trust your judgment. Which one's easiest to find? Well, they're right next to each other. So they're equally easy, but one of them is quieter. So we'll go to the quieter one. Works for me. Great. So now in that series, you had a few choices. You had choices of day, time and location, but it was controlled choices. I didn't make it so big that you were flailing about. So that's how to do that. Make clear that you're hosting, give choice of two places that you know work. You've been there before. You know they work. People can find them usually, and then a choice of the hour that would be most convenient in your case, 11 to 12. I like that. And that does remove a lot of the confusion because so many times people, they don't know where to meet you. They don't know how to find it. And if you do this over their email, you'll end up sending like 15 emails back and forth to finally get the details. Well, yeah. And that's a reason I like to do this by phone if at all possible. Okay, now I'm going to get there 10 minutes early. I'm going to get there so that when you show up, I'm here. And there's no question in your mind about was it the other place? So that's good. And then we go into the restaurant and I want my guest, you, to have the best seat. So in your mind, what's the best seat? That is a good question. The paranoid part of me says the best seat is where I can see the entire room. The other part of me that wants to have a good conversation and be friendly is like I can't see the other room and I can just see you and I'm not distracted. Okay. But I don't know that about you. I don't know you yet. So a mistake I used to make was I would assume that the best seat was the one with the best view. Isn't it? According to you. The ocean, of course they want that. But then I would see some people blinking and their pupils would be tiny. And they just didn't look all that comfortable. And it occurred to me maybe that isn't the best seat. So then I learned, please, wherever you're comfortable, open hand, not biasing, not pointing. Because some people want the seat in the corner with nothing behind them and everything ahead of them. Other people want no distractions. So they would want nothing except you. Yeah. And some people want ease of access, whatever's easiest to get in and out of the room. Yeah. We just don't know. So because I don't know you well enough and we're learning about each other, I need to be very unbiased in how I handle this. I've got a question for you about this. Of course. So you said you get there 10 minutes early. I'm assuming you have stuff. You've brought your purse, maybe a couple bags. So when you're sitting and waiting for your guest, where do you put your stuff down so that you're not taking a seat from them when they get there? Well, I owe good questions. So I don't wait for them at a table. I don't ever allow myself to be seated before my guest arrives because I have had the hostess changes. It's a different hostess now who doesn't realize I've been seated. So if someone's out there waiting, I'm in there waiting. We're both going, what a flake. Oh, gosh. And one more than once, we've actually not even met. So wait at the reception area. Don't allow yourself to be seated. I like that advice. That is a really, really good advice. Yeah. And then your stuff is with you, of course. Right. But to answer your question, once you are seated, everything needs to go under the table. You see bags and trip areas happening, and it looks like a baggage claim area. And no personal items on the table at all until you're ready to actually do some business. So no having your phone out so you can check email. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now we're seated and we're looking at the menus, right? Okay. This is a multi-talented book. Yes. So we're looking at the menu. Now, as a normal human being, which you're not, but pretend that you are, what would you be, what's the first thing you'd be wondering as you look at the menu? Okay. This takes me back to when my mom would take out our family with seven kids. So you ordered the cheapest thing on the menu. And so that makes, the first thing I want to ask is, what are you ordering? Because then I know what price range you're getting, and I can either match or be below it. Well, I should not have you have to ask that. I should not expect you to ask me, what am I having? I need to guide you first. So I would say, you know, Arby, there are a couple of appetizers that I highly recommend, the this and the that. And now in your mind you know, okay, appetizer. That's okay. Yeah. Or if I don't have the budget time or inclination, I could say, there are a couple of entrees here that are really good. May I recommend the this or the that? And now you know, don't order an appetizer. So you'd rather know to not order that than wonder if you should and then find out later that I'm not matching that. Because then you might feel a little pig-ish. Yeah. And that's always the worst feeling. When there's that awkwardness, you're not sure if you're putting them out. You're not sure if you're not taking advantage of a full meal. You never really know which way to fall. Right. Now one thing I've learned about men is that they don't like it when women, a woman that they're interested in, orders, I'll just have the salad. Men don't like that. Men want a woman who knows how to eat. So, you know, I would love to have that prime rib. Men like that. They don't want this cheapy little... I'll have a single kale leaf, please. Yeah. Right. Okay. So I've guided you on either appetizer or not and the entrees. And now here comes another pivotal point. So the server comes along and asks you what you would like. And I indicate that you should be asked first. So let's say you order the vegetarian... So what would you... What can I get for you? Say vegetarian lasagna. Can I have the vegetarian lasagna, please? And what would you like? Oh, you know, I saw that prime rib station over there. And could you get me the rarest possible cut? And bloody even. Okay. This is called a mismatch. It could make you really uncomfortable. I don't know you well enough yet. I might actually cry. Why? Is this really bothering you? So funny. So my best bet, the best three words I can say to the server is, that sounds great. Make that two. And now you get to feel like you have really good judgment. That you made a good choice. Yeah. Not only did I make a good choice, but we're also similar. That you like what I like and therefore what I like is awesome. Right. And what if you ordered the prime rib and I'm the vegetarian. Do I have to now match that? I don't think so. No, I don't. So we match what we can, but sometimes we can't match everything. So we match what we can. Let's go quickly to the dessert portion. The server asks you what you would like for dessert. Go ahead. So what could I get you for dessert? I would at this point pause and look at you and be like, is dessert allowed? Well, I didn't stop him. So I allowed him to ask you what you would like. So order something. I'll have the cheesecake, please. And now he says, and for you, and I say, nothing for me. I'm good. Oh, now I feel guilty. Right. So now you feel pig-ish and greedy. Like you missed some cue that you did something wrong. And so this is very unfair of me. I need to, because I didn't guide you to not do dessert. I need to consume something along with you. So it could be something as simple as tea. But I need to be, by arm needs to be working with you. So I need to match that you had something. Okay, final. Now, this time you don't want dessert. Okay. What can I get you for dessert? That's all for me. Thank you. And you. Oh, I would love to have the creme brulee and a cappuccino, too. And now I'm like, I missed dessert. Right. Exactly. So now you're thinking, either I don't want to have to sit here this long. Or why didn't she guide me better? Or I really would like to have something, but it's too late now. So awkward, awkward, awkward. So I need to match that you didn't want dessert. I won't either. And I'll get a Snickers bar at the 7-Eleven. That is fabulous. Yeah. All right. So we've covered walking into the restaurant. We've covered all the way through dessert. And viewers, we are going to be right back to finish out this interaction. Stick around. See you in a minute. For Young Talent's Making Way here on Fink Tech, Hawaii, we talk every Tuesday at 11 a.m. about things that matter to tech, matter to science, to the people of Hawaii with some extraordinary guests, the students of our schools who are participating in science fair. So Young Talent's Making Way every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only on Fink Tech, Hawaii. Mahalo. Comfort Zone on Fink Tech on Spectrum OC16. I'm your host, Arby Kelly, and I'm here with special guest, Pam Chambers. Now, we've been talking all about hosting a business luncheon. You know, those awkward things where you're not sure what to order or if you should get dessert or who's paying for it. So, Pam, you've already given us a ton of brilliant answers that looking back, I'm wishing I knew before this because I've had so many awkward lunches. But now I'm wondering, what if you want to leave partway? What if it's not going well? Oh, I wouldn't end it. I wouldn't truncate it if it's not going well because that's pretty rude. But let's say that I got a buzz on my phone and I glanced and it's from my sister who's in Paris and she says I need help. I would say, please forgive me, Arby. There's something I must handle. May I excuse myself for five minutes? And the thing you did there, you might not have caught this viewers, but she went and she touched my knee. And so this touch is actually telling my brain, Pam likes me. Pam cares about me. This is serious. So you've already softened that. You've told me this is serious and you are so sorry that this needs to be handled. And who's going to say, well, I mean, you're going to say, of course. And I'll come back and you'll probably ask what it was about. But if I want to leave because it's a really bad first date, like a blind date that I just hate, well, first of all, I wouldn't have made it lunch. If it's a blind date situation, coffee, that's a lot easier to escape from. And it's a lot shorter, too. Now let's see, where were we? I want to talk about when in the course of the meal we should bring up our business. Because remember, I had some mutually beneficial ideas. Some people don't know the etiquette rule about when to bring up the business. And there is a rule. Oh, is there? Oh, good. Please tell me. So the rule is after the entree. Okay. There's a huge unless. Unless you say, now that we've ordered, what were those ideas? And it would be rude for me to say, no, sister, what's your hurry? That would be rude. So I would say, oh, I would match. I would say, oh, I'm glad that you're so interested. Why don't we get started on that until our meal arrives. And then we'll enjoy our meal. And then when the table is cleared, we'll resume because I have some pages that I want to share with you. I like that. So it's an agenda. Now this explains to me why some people have looked so surprised when as soon as they sit down, I'm like, so what do you want? Now I know how to. You wait until, see, it's not even practical to be shoveling food in and talking about a $10,000, whatever. You know, it's just not practical. So we want to separate those tasks even though we're at a lunch. And then so then now we have this agenda and afterwards. Now because of that, I might find that you need to leave. So in the invitation, I would have said something like I hope that you have about an hour and a half for this because of these business ideas. So the 11 to 12 probably won't work. We might want to choose a different day for that. And that is really good to make that absolutely clear. Okay. This has never happened to me before, which tells me all the, everyone here is loving your presentation. I have a voice in my ear who wants to ask you a question. Okay. All right. And the voice in my ear is saying, are you allowed to touch the knee even if you're a man talking to a woman or a woman talking to a man? A woman talking to a man is allowed to touch his knee. He is not. He might be, he might touch my forearm. Forearm. Okay. Yeah. Not hand, forearm. All right. And is that still acceptable? Is there, is there anything else he should be worried about? He. Or she? No, just know that there are certain areas you can touch and they're very limited and those are what they are. All right. Now, the touching the knee, how are we seated approximately to each other? If I have to lunge across the table, I wouldn't do that. But I would try to make, I would even move my hand toward the person. Even if we're sitting super far away. Please forgive me. Something has come up that I must handle. So it's an approximation of a touch. That's the safest. Yeah. What I do sometimes when I'm not sure if people will like a touch is I'll actually fake it out. Like I'll reach out almost touched and then lean back. Good. Good. Now, paying the bill. Let's say that you're a man and I've invited you. I query all of my male audiences, men, how many of you are totally comfortable having the woman pay the bill? And very few hands go up even in this day and age. And I say it must be in your DNA that you think you have to pay, especially for the first time. And they go, yeah, it kind of is. And I said, well, let me convince you otherwise. First of all, it's 2018. You agreed that I could host you. I know how to bring home the bacon and cook it up too. So you agreed that I could do this and for there to now be an argument about it makes me wonder if maybe you have trouble receiving. And if you have trouble receiving, what else down the road are we going to have a problem with? So it's a little test, really. It's a test. Will he let me pay? And will he be gracious about it? Interesting. Now, that explains to me why I've had so many people when I'm meeting with men, they just randomly pay the bill. And I'm like, oh, OK, great. But was it made clear in advance that you were going to pay? Usually I think so. I'll say, can I take you to lunch? OK. And then they whip out their card. And I'm like, that was a surprise. So what I do in that situation is, this is on me. And I am playful about it. But I want them to know what we agreed on is what is going to happen here for the future. Interesting. Now, if he says, oh, well, next one's on me, I'll say fine. Next one's on you. Great. Let's schedule it now. But sometimes men say, well, let me at least leave the tip. No, because to leave the tip, you have to know what that amount was. And I'm not sharing that with you. This is my treat. Interesting. Yeah. Now, I think I'm still young and stupid enough to be like, free food. I'll take it where I can. But I appreciate this more experience, this more balanced perspective. If free food is the issue, then do free coffee instead. If money comes into it, then make it a less expensive date. Now, what do you think about thank you notes? After this, who should receive the thank you note? Oh, that is tricky. Yeah. Because you paid for food, but you got their time. Right. Well, let's see. If I was hosting it and I wanted to make the best possible impression, not only would I pay for food, but I would also send them a thank you note. Exactly. So the host sends the note to the guest for your willingness to spend time with me and to investigate these mutually beneficial ideas that I had in mind. Some people would say, well, the guest should do a thank you note. Well, I'm not holding my breath. And as far as thanking, sometimes people thank with an email because people expect instant gratification these days. So I might thank someone in an email and send a thank you note. And this is doubly powerful and makes a lasting impression. Now Pam, what do you do when not only do you say thank you, but they say thank you, and then you say no thank you. And there's like this battle of who is the most grateful? Oh, I probably laugh. We're both thankful and we're both grateful. And you just would leave it at that. Right. Yeah. Yes. Now I often wonder, like I want to send a thank you note, but I'm not actually sure how to find where people are. Like I know their emails, maybe I've got their business card, but I don't really know how to get a note to them. Is it easier to find a mailing address than I think it is? Yeah. Yeah. I mean Google, LinkedIn, well, they don't have an address there, but the website, they're going to have an address there. You could private message them and say, I have something I'd like to send you, would you please send me your mailing address? Hmm. So yeah, I never, I've never let that be an excuse. I always find the address somehow because I know the power of that note. See what happens is when they get it, they're going to smile. No matter what is happening around them, they're going to smile. And then they're going to prop it within view. And every time their eye lands on that, you win another point. I like that. Yeah. You've been fabulous so far, Pam. I've really enjoyed everything. Thank you. And we've got about one minute left. Oh. Is there any last minute advice? Oh, let's see. Yes. Keep pace with your companion when you're eating because if one of you finishes before the other and the server clears that plate away, the person who's still eating suddenly feels awkward. So you want to keep pace so that doesn't happen. If you should finish first and they try to take your plate, you would say, please leave it. Please leave it because then you would feel awkward. Yeah. You'd feel like you were taking too long. Yeah. I mean, I've actually completely lost my appetite once that happens. I don't feel sick. I just don't feel like I should finish that because it appears that it's over. That makes sense. So Pam, I really hope we can have you back on the show. I feel like there's so much to learn about and I love that you make everything so simple and clear and easy to understand. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you for coming and I hope we'll see you again soon and thank you viewers. We'll see you next time. Bye.