 Today's webinar from Projects and Smarts to Personas and Storytelling, and today's event is done together with HiveMind Community, which is an initiative of TechSoup Europe I work at, and HiveMind is a unique online meeting space gathering activists, trainers, journalists, CSOs, and a wider international community interesting and learning more about things like media literacy, building positive narratives, digital safety and security, and with self-based courses coming soon in nine languages. HiveMind is aimed at building capacity for civil society, organizations, and creating a global community of practice. And speaking of that global community, Hubert Zawiecki, who's our speaker for today, is one of our most active members of the HiveMind community of practice, and Hubert is our master trainer. In fact, he's based in Warsaw, Poland. He's an expert in the field of building positive narratives in human rights communication. Apart from that, Hubert is an LGBTQ plus activist and a board member of the Love Does Not Exclude Association. And since 2010, Hubert has been developing nationwide social campaigns, combining storytelling, strategic narratives, and data-based approaches. And today he'll tell us more about the basic, but key elements in building our own narratives. Now, this is something that was quite a challenging thing to put together, this set of slides. Firstly, because it was supposed to be an entry level kind of training, and at the same time a short one, but also something that I wouldn't want to bore you with. So instead of focusing on something that you might find after having, you know, you Google for five minutes, I just wanted to put something, to put on the board something that comes from my personal experience, and it's sort of my way of doing things and has been my way of doing things. According to my experience for the past 10 years as a competitor of LGBT plus issues here in Poland. So as Maya has already mentioned, I work at Love Does Not Exclude Association. I deal mainly with comps in the community, and this is the agenda for today. We'll go very briefly, really lightning speed through some very key, very important and key elements of doing social comps. What are social comps, first of all? By social comps I mean any kind of communication that deals with social issues, any sort of engagement with society or groups in society with social problems. And afterwards we'll ask about three very general concepts dealing with communication theory, which in my mind are absolutely crucial to developing your own communication, and especially the developing your own narratives, which are the building blocks of storytelling when it comes to external communications. And in the end I will show you again very briefly two case studies of two campaigns, one a small one and one a larger one, which organized here in Poland. And the second one is something that we are preparing right now and it's actually going to launch tomorrow. So you have a chance to see some materials which are not yet online and are not yet out. So I guess you can consider yourself our focus group for that. So let's move, what are comps? What are communications? Usually the general picture that you get when you ask this question is this, you have a message being sent from somebody, a sender and then you have the audience, somebody who is supposed to receive the message and then what? And the answer to turn what really depends on the kind of communication theory that you apply. What I firmly believe in is when it comes to social communications, awareness is not enough. Informing people about something, getting the message across to them and even changing the minds about something is never enough. What you need to do is persuade them to act. If there's no action then even the most impactful change of people's hearts and minds really doesn't impact the external world. It doesn't really matter whether they think differently or feel differently about an issue about something unless they do something about it. And this is why the kind of approach to social comps which I use in my work is actually persuasion. I want to persuade people to change their behavior in a certain way. This is the kind of three step pathway from the sender to the audience, which again we like to use in our association. These are the three crucial sort of steps that you need to achieve, need to go through in order to get in touch with the audience, they need to perceive your message, they need to have a chance to even physically come in touch with the message. Then they need to receive it, which is I guess you could also call it internalize it, understand it, but also remember it. And eventually they need to follow the message, they need to follow what the message is about. So in case of awareness raising, you would say they need to change their mind about something, but in the case of persuading people, the follow component should actually lead to action. Of course, communication can go badly at any of these steps. Your message may absolutely disappear on social media because of algorithms. Your message can vanish in a white noise of everyday communication landscape that we are all immersed in and this includes your audience. It may be perceived, but then it can be rejected because for example, it's not surprising or interesting enough for people to remember it. They saw it, they came in touch with it, but then immediately it vanished from their minds. And then eventually they can even remember it, but refuse to follow it, refuse to follow what the message was about, refuse to follow on the call to action, which you might have sent. So you could say that it's about visibility, memorability and persuasion. And these three elements again, stem from actually tied to these concepts of grasping, grabbing somebody's attention, creating a resonance within the person that you're talking to or the group of people that you're talking to, your target audience. And eventually you need them to trust you, to trust you as a center or to trust the message, trust the message, which sometimes even shows the center as a special kind of antagonist within a message. I will get back to that in a moment. And today's presentation and in my work actually, we tend to focus, I tend to focus on resonance and trust because when it comes to attention and trying to find a good answer how to be visible on social media and mainstream media or online in general or even traditional media, you have tons of books and tons of experts, thousands of experts, which claim to have the fantastic answer to these fantastic questions. It's incredibly important question of today, how to get people to notice you. I won't get into that. There are methods of doing that. There are methods of being the butterfly, as you can see. But even if you, even though you can skip that and I will be skipping that in this presentation, if you really focus just on the resonance and trust parts, you can still have this attention component covered because if you manage to create a resonance with your target audience, even however small it may be in the beginning because you didn't get that much reach on social media or you didn't get that much traction with mainstream media, if the resonance is there, if the message in itself, its quality is high enough, if it even manages to generate trust and get your audience, your very small target audience to do something, in the end, this will create and generate attention of all the people from outside of the original group that you managed to reach. So it may be risky. It may seem like doing things from the other side rather in comparison with what you are being taught usually that first of all, get your reach and then from this reach you build on quality because you need quantity to sort of convert it into quality. It may seem like that, but again, in our expertise and in our experience, it usually works to have a very high quality message because it gains traction on the sound, so to speak. So what is homophily? That's the first, as I mentioned, of the first concept of the three that I'm going to focus on today. It should be basic knowledge and perhaps some of you already heard it in context of communication. Well, homophily is basically this phenomenon, it's a social phenomenon, but also it sort of has to do with every individual. We all follow this golden rule of homophily. It's about seeing someone similar to yourself and loving them. It's a very old social mechanism that sort of embedded and ingrained in our mind. Some theories claim that it was enforced by evolution to help us come together as tribes and first holds and tribes than the larger groups of people and cooperate. The mechanism itself is very simple. We tend to trust people who are similar to us. We tend to be more open and more accepting towards people who are at least a little bit like ourselves. However, it has also some larger and broader repercussions which can be easily omitted because it's not, I mean, it may seem like something very basic. It's almost, it's very intuitive to understand. We tend to be friends with people who have had similar interests. We tend to be friends with people who have similar opinions to our own. In the age of social media, it becomes increasingly difficult to even see opinions of people with whom we disagree because of the almighty algorithm. But at the very beginning, what is the source of this is this instinct of us yelling to be surrounded by people who are similar to us. And when it comes to the question, whom do I trust? In the context of communication, when people are being asked this question, and it's usually by some polling agencies who want to know what kind of leverage they should use in order to get their marketing across to them, for example. This is why we see some very, this is why so many advertisements, they seem to be so very similar using the same kind of figures who are supposed to be trustworthy in the eyes of the target audience, an expert advertising something that has to do with the field of expertise, like doctors going to advertise medicine, and some well-known person who is an expert on the field, I don't know, beauty is going to sell you beauty products. But it's not just about experts because basically when people answer this question, first of all, they say, well, I trust my friends. I trust people who surround, who I surrounded myself with willingly. And the experts, as such, are really at the bottom of the list. People don't really trust experts that much. Of course, it changes from culture to culture and the country to country. And some countries have huge problems with dealing with the institution of an expert, which is something that we still have in our culture left from 19th century. In some countries, vast majorities of populations, they refuse to recognize any sorts of experts anymore. And this is why, for example, so many conspiracy theories gain so much traction, but still there are some people who do recognize experts, and the person who they trust, even though they recognize those experts, are still the friends. They trust their friends much more. And then the second category of people whom people tend to trust universally are people they aspire to become. Somebody who I may become myself. Somebody who looks like somebody I would like to be. Somebody who has social status, maybe. Or some kind of background or some kind of a life story that I aspire to achieve. This is, again, a universal trait of us being inspired by people we aspire to become. So from the combination of the two, you can get someone who is called the influencer. The influencer is, forget about social media for a moment. By the influencer, I don't mean somebody who has millions of followers on TikTok or Instagram. And influencers, any person who has influence, basically. So anyone who can persuade somebody else, anyone who can persuade our target audience to do something, to change their behavior in some way, or start doing something, or stop doing something. That's the influencer. And the influencer is absolutely the foundation. It should become the foundation of your communication. I will get to the answer why that it's so important in the end. But here already, when you see the diagram which I showed you at the beginning, if we talk about resonance and trust, if we talk about wanting people to trust our message and trust us, us, the sender. If we use the influencer, in other words, if we show them someone who is similar to themselves or somebody they want to become, there's a high chance that this trust element will be there. The distance between the message and the audience will shorten immediately because the distance is always there. Any message is being perceived as an external communicate, something that comes from the outside. So it has to go through several filters that all of us have. If we use the influencer who is a lookalike of our target audience, then they see themselves in the message. If we use somebody who may be a person they aspire to become, then we play on something slightly different. We play on social status mostly. But again, it makes the message easier to accept, easier to internalize and easier to trust. The next question is what are the stakes? Because in communication and message creation, you should have some stakes. What are the stakes actually? Well, the stakes should be high. That's the one thing that they want to convince to remember. But what are the stakes in the message? Well, basically, you have this very, again, very general division of any message being found on two pillars. One being the logical or rational one and the other being the emotional one, that the Greek concept is used by Aristotle and his rhetoric. Now, on the logical and rational side, you have things like texts, data, numbers, anything that you can use in messaging that lots of message standards used in the messaging, regardless of them being huge corporations who do marketing or small NGOs who want to make a social change in the neighborhood. You use data from time to time. You want to create an argument. You want to create something convincing, something that can be understood and accepted on a logical level. But the part of the message, which actually really makes it, and unfortunately for some people at least, for those who want to believe that the world is more rational than it actually is, the side of messaging, which will always be sort of the winning side, which will always be more impactful than the logical and rational one, is the side of images, sounds and actions. We react emotionally to the world mostly. We can rationalize our strictly emotional reactions perfectly, even if they go against our logical, against our rational, against our belief systems. Do we have absolutely no problems with that? So this is why if you can't forget in messaging, you can't forget about using those tools, which interact with those emotional parts of ourselves and emotional parts of your target audience. You need to use images, which work definitely better than words and texts. If you can, you should use sounds, music, and instead of counting for people to understand and retain some sort of knowledge, in other words, instead of trying to raise awareness about something, ask them to act, ask them to do something or stop doing something, but doing something is usually the better way. So remember that message, any kind of message is based on emotions. It also has this component that has to do with the needs of your target audience, because people tend to resonate, sorry, messages tend to resonate with people in target audiences if these messages sort of compatible with the needs of the target audience. When we watch a film or we listen to a song or read a book or participate in culture on to consume many sort of media if we have a choice, we usually do it because this piece of media, this kind of content, it gives something to us. It responds to some sort of need that we have. It should be the same with good messaging. The message for a target audience should take into account the needs of the target audience because it will make so much easier for the audience to accept it and acknowledge it and take it as something that they need. Those needs necessarily have to do with the values of the target audience. So you need to be emotional. You need to be impactful when it comes to using the language of science and images. You need to be responsive to the needs of your target audience and you need to know the audience when it comes to the values that are crucial for them. So before you have a message, you should first ask about your audience. For example, I can imagine that my audience are people who believe in social recognition, altruism and tradition. Those are people whose needs are focused on being part of a community. They yearn for security based on belonging to a community. And the main emotions that they have to deal with in the context of my communication is, for example, fear of rejection and feeling empowered by others. If I create this sort of imaginary person who has these traits which apply to my target audience, next I can make it even more precise. I can imagine that this is, for example, a man or a woman or just a person. How old are they? Where do they live? What are their views? Political ones? Are they religious? What was the job? Their education? All this stuff. It comes together to create a persona. A persona is imaginary. A persona is somebody who doesn't really exist, but it doesn't matter because if your intuitions are right and these intuitions sometimes can and usually should be based on actual research that you have done or somebody has done for you, the persona will be a perfect tool for you to create a messaging which really resonates with people and is trustworthy for your target audience. So apart from the influencer, you have a persona, which is the second crucial element which is very helpful for you to get this small paper plane across to this machining, a gear and knobs kind of head on the right. I should have put a nicer face on the right side because it looks slightly terrifying. Let's move to the third concept. What is hope? And why hope? Why are we talking about hope at all? Well, as I mentioned already, it's very important for you to know the values of your target audience and hope is actually one of the most fundamental values that we all have regardless of who we are, what's our creed, what's our ethnicity, what's our lifestyle, our history, our background, all of it. We all hope for something or try to hope for something. Hope is a very tricky kind of value because in itself it's really very difficult to pinpoint what the content and definition of hope actually is. And this is what makes hope a perfect vehicle for message. Let's imagine that hope is a car. I know. Let's imagine it's a vehicle, a vehicle for your messaging. You need to get people on board of this car. You need to get them to follow your message. You are offering them sort of a journey of going somewhere together. If there's a clear call to action, it's very simple to say what the goal of this journey is. It's to do this thing to achieve something. That's what call to action is. It's a communication tool which claims very clearly that if you do this, we will achieve this. So if your message has a call to action, it can definitely be based on the so-called hope-based communication. Hope-based communication is basically building this vehicle, building this car. First, you need to get people on board. So you need to remember about the luggage that they carry. The luggage that they carry are the emotional needs, their own values, apart from hope. And the emotions they shoot that are important to them, the emotions that you want them to feel because of your message. And if the driver is the influencer, they will trust the driver and get on board. So this is how you basically put people on board of your message and put people on board with your vision that's in the message. So a little bit about hope. Because really, it's myself. Before I started thinking about hope in the context of communication, never really put that much effort into trying to understand what this concept actually means. And then eventually when I started wondering about it, because I needed to use it in communications, I really discovered it's empty. But hope is actually something that can be externally sort of described. It has to do with change. I can hope for something to change. But then again, it's not really specific. I mean, hope itself doesn't really define what sort of change it's going to be, what kind of change, what is going to change into what. But there are different narratives and different stories all around us. Two different types of narratives come to mind, one which mentions the good old times and another one which promises the better tomorrow. So you could say that hope in communication, especially the kind of communication that has to do with calling people to action, deals with the concept of good and better. And what do those words mean again? Very similarly to hope, good and better, are completely devoid of meaning. The relative concept. You can define anything as good or better. It's up to you and your messaging to define it as such, to put this tag on something and say that it's worthwhile to hope for it. So when you build your communication on hope, then what you do basically, you try to imagine a world which has changed for the better or perhaps returned to something that used to be better in the past. So you call for change, but this change has to do with the vision, imagination and what you should really be doing is show people the world that you want them to believe in and ask people to imagine it as real. In other words, present a vision that in itself will constitute a call to action. If people are enchanted by a vision, if they feel the right kind of emotions, if it responds to the emotional needs that they have, if it resonates with the values that they have apart from hope or the values, if it's being supported by an influencer, somebody they trust, you basically manage to put them on board of your small communication vehicle and lead them from somebody, something that used to be a paper plane into this terrifying machining head. Just kidding. You just show them the way and they drive towards a brighter future of the better, better past maybe, together. So now I will show you very briefly two examples of the case studies of one very small campaign and one a larger one, which were basically found on this method, if you could call it a method, on this habit of remembering about those concepts, basically remembering about who the influencer is, what are the values that you need to be emotional, you need to resonate and you need people to follow you on something. So the first example is or bro says be yourself, which was a campaign, a very small outdoor campaign created by a Warsaw based LGBT plus organization called Lambda Warsaw. And it was done with support from Texas Europe. I had the privilege of being a trainer of a group of activists who prepared this campaign in a very small appellage town called Adam with population of 211,000 people. And they decided to go there, first of all, because in this small town, they never had any kind of LGBTQ plus focused campaign before. Also, they decided that their influencers are going to be siblings, are going to be brothers and sisters of LGBT plus people. Another thing that was also an important factor was that this municipality and the region itself was about to implement the so-called LGBT ideology free zone resolution, which is something that's going on in Poland. And it's a horrifying thing. And really there's no time for me to explain how has this possible in 21st century, in Central Europe, in my country, people are voting on such resolutions and passing them, but it happens. And another part was that those two activists who prepared this campaign, Katarzyna and Hubert, not me, another, it was the hometown. And they wanted to do something in a place that, first of all, they knew very well, and a place that they deeply cared about. It really does make a difference. If you know your target audience, because it's your hometown, it's helpful. What they did, they created a set of photos showing openly gay, lesbian, bisexual people with brothers and sisters, who are saying, brad, bon so bon, which means basically brother, be yourself. But brother, and that's one of the most crucial elements of this communication is that the word brother is used in a more sort of colloquial way, it's like bro, be yourself, sis, be yourself. In the small town of Radom, these billboards were something new, something unexpected. They had a call to action because they invited people to visit a website, which showed them really very short sort of bullet list of things they can do to support their siblings or just support LGBT plus people in general. So the goal of it was to make people support LGBT plus people, especially kids, because kids and teenagers are the most vulnerable ones, especially when it comes to mental illnesses and suicides. So that was the goal of the campaign. And instead of talking about the problem, they focused on the agents of change, so to speak, the influences and the influences where the brothers, straight brothers and straight sisters. So people who can use the privilege to take care of those who do not have that privilege basically. And they can say that, I've got your back. You can be yourself, I've got your back. Another example is the second one is a campaign that we are going, as I've mentioned already, we're going to launch it tomorrow. By we, I mean my association, love does not exclude. It's actually funded by the European Union. It's called We Are Family, or Yes Tej Merogino. It's the first nationwide campaign on the so-called Brandable Family. So same-sex couples who have kids here and present right now. And it's mostly based on five families and five storytelling content, mainly videos. So what we did, of course, we needed the families themselves to show the lives, to allow us to enter their homes and film them, show the kids. But that was not enough because we wanted to use the influence. And the influencer is, for example, this dad, who is a middle-aged man from a small village in a rural area in Poland, which is not very, very progressive and not very liberal. And here you can see him sitting with his daughter and daughter-in-law and the kids. And he doesn't have any issue with that. He's an accepting father and an accepting father-in-law and a very good grandpa. And he's the influencer who is telling all the people who are him or like him, ordinary middle-aged men from smaller towns and villages, that, look, there's a guy like him, which means a guy like you. He doesn't have a problem with that, why should you? Another thing was that one of the moms from the videos is a police woman. You must know that right now, a police in Poland is actually being used by the government, sometimes even to use brutal force against LGBT-plus protesters on the streets. So this is again a type of an influencer, somebody showing, look, this is a police woman and she's actually in the same sex relationship and they have kids together and maybe you should think twice before doing something to those kids on the street with rainbow flags because you have people like that, basically perhaps in your department, maybe your friends are rainbow moms, rainbow families. Another one was this nice grandma who again, even during film vocal and very critical about our current president who famously said that LGBT-plus people are not people but an ideology. So here you can see somebody who is probably more likely to vote for the current government and the current president of Poland and be very homophobic and very openly, aggressively against same-sex couples and same-sex parenthood and here you can see her as just an ordinary grandma who is saying that she lost her daughters and her grandchildren. And again, it's not enough just to show the couples and the kids. You need to have the whole family because that's the main message of the campaign. We are family. We are not an ideology. We are not a threat. Nothing is going to be demolished if you recognize us. Nothing is going to be different for you. What's going to change is our lives. We're going to be recognized legally. We're going to become true families in the eyes of the law and this is the only change that's going to happen. And this is something that's worth hoping for because in the end we all want to have pictures like that because we all want to have nice families who are accepting and nice families who don't really, who are not places of conflict and hate but just groups of people who support one another. So thanks a lot and I hope on time to still give you a chance to answer some questions. Sorry. Hubert, thank you so much. You're perfectly on time. We have 15 more minutes. If you have any questions you would like to ask Hubert. I posted the link to the videos of the campaign of the second campaign that was mentioning. And yeah, as already said, you'll be sort of the first group to see it as it premieres tomorrow. But yes, feel free. This was very informative, although I've already been to some of your trainings and I still find it interesting. But yeah, but maybe our audiences have, our participants have some questions they would like to ask. Let me check the Q&A. James mentioned, because there was a discussion about using the term influencers, as you mentioned, that's been sort of hijacked by the social media. So James mentioned that, made a comment actually, and maybe you can speak to it, that he said, I like agents of change better than influencers because social media has observed the term influencers to mean a rich number of followers, not actual influencers. Yeah. Yeah, so basically, yeah, an agent of change, that's another way of putting it, definitely. I definitely agree that the word influencer can be misleading. You usually use it nowadays in context of social media. However, I still tend to use it anyways because it describes what the concept is for. It's finding somebody, finding this figure, this person, even if it's imaginary, who's going to influence your audience. And yeah, I mean, it works for me, but if you need any sort of, as long as you understand the concept and understand it's need, then you're fine with using any kind of other nomenclature that you may prefer, sure. Carlos asked, can you talk a little bit more about persona? I guess this can mean like both how you create it, right? Do you base it on sensing interviews? I guess that maybe the background might be interesting. Yeah, persona basically is a huge topic, right? But what you need to know the very basics of it, you need to have a target audience first of all. You need to make an arbitrary choice. Who am I talking to? And this is very strongly linked to the problem that you need to address. If I want to make a change, for example, during the first case that I mentioned, during the creative process, what really counted was that the activists decided they wanted to help teenagers, LGBT class teenagers. And the next question was, who is my target audience then? Those teenagers maybe, their parents, the, I don't know, the colleagues at school, maybe the teachers, maybe some public services or something. And eventually we came up with the idea of targeting the siblings, like the brothers and sisters, and ask them to help them, to help our actual sort of problem, right? Help us solve the problem. So if you have the target audience, you're already halfway there. Because from the target audience, you need to imagine individuals of this group, who are those people? What kind of messaging will they react to? What are the, even though there's very technical things, like what are the media they consume? What are the, what's the type of content that they like, they enjoy receiving? And in the case of this small campaign in this small town, outdoor was universal, basically, because it's a small place. So putting something outdoor over there, always creates ripples. Because again, it's not that often that sort of social campaign, especially one where the rainbow appears in this town. So if you just Google persona and communication, you'll get lots of, lots of information about it. But the basics are this, you need to have a target group, and then you need to imagine people from the target group, and imagine as many details as you can about them. It will make your messaging. Just a quick follow up, and you can see it on the, because it also relates to the persona. Should each campaign ideally have just one? Is there a danger of personas clashing when campaigns are out there? All of those campaigns are out there in the world. It's better to have many, to have more than one. If you have very limited resources, and you want to really channel your messaging and make it very intense, then yes, you can definitely have just one persona that you want to address, but it's better to have several. And as long as you keep in mind that all these personas should be under the common umbrella of your target audience, there should be no clashes in between them. Just try to, if you see any clashes between different personas, like if you come up with two personas who according to your analysis, and perhaps some research that you're using, if according to that, the clashing together, and you need completely different sorts of messaging to cover them both, you need to make a choice. Because you can't really afford to have clashing communication. But then again, if you have different channels that you can use, for example, and these channels are quite separate, and they really target those personas, those segments of your target audience, then you can forget about clashing because those channels won't intersect. So again, try to come up with as many as possible, try to avoid clashes unless you have really very well-developed channels to reach them independently. Then those clashes won't matter. Great, wonderful. There's, I think you've touched upon this when you were talking about choosing the personas and sort of thinking about your audience. But there's a question from Sherry, which I think might be something, a lot of smaller organizations struggle with. Meaning, how can you apply this knowledge if you have limited resources? And not, as I can imagine, not, you know, no communications, communication experts. Mm-hmm. Well, that's a good question, but it's a question to you. You should ask yourself, what do you want to achieve? What's your communication is for? Because the kind of communication I've been talking about was, as I said, persuasion. It was about making people do something. Even if it's doing something, means just visiting a website. Maybe you want people to attend the library physically. Maybe you want them to follow you online. Maybe you want them to participate in some sort of event. Regardless of the kind of action that you require them to take, you need to focus on, first of all, learning who your target audience is. Again, it can be everyone. It needs to be someone. Everyone doesn't exist. You need a person, a persona. So imagine the person that you want to invite to your event or invite to do something and ask yourself, what are the stakes in this transaction that's going on between me and them? What to put it bluntly sell them? And by selling, remember that sometimes it's enough just to sell people a feeling of something, emotions, nice messages, something that resonates with them. For example, if you want perhaps the large groups of people, if you want to have more visitors, just from the top of my head, I want to have more people visiting my library. Perhaps the thing that I can invite them to participate in and the kind of emotions that I can offer them and the kind of needs that I can respond to that they might have is a sense of calm, sense of security, sense of being surrounded by like-minded people, sense of participating in something that's cultured or maybe just participating in something that's just interesting, because the event is about the book that they might find interesting, right? Pick those things that are going to be, again, resonating, right? So it's going to be impactful for your target audience and play with them. And then just create a nice picture on social media and use bright colors and fonts. Don't go crazy, but warm colors I imagine for a library and inviting. Yeah, so that's very good, practical advice. But I guess also the key message is that, exactly like you have to know what you're communicating and you can use this approach no matter the size or like the scale of your operations, whether the audience you're speaking to or the size of your staff. We have one more and we still, we have still some time like two or three minutes. So please, if you have additional questions, then put them in the Q&A tab. But yes, there's a question about a messaging campaign. Does an influencer agent of change, however we choose to call them, need to be a consistent face or person or can it be a group of people that speak to the same message? If you can afford to have a group of people that go for it. Because the more faces you have, the more chance of creating a resonance and having an impact on your target audience you create. One influencer or one face of the campaign, you even call those people who for example, market some products, right? You call them faces of the campaign. You could call them ambassadors, brand ambassadors because they become influencers for usually there are people that you know, according to marketing specialists, this sort of people aspire to be like them. This is why they buy the products. But if you can have different agents of change then have them. That's great. That's fantastic. Just remember not trying to make them not cannibalize themselves because when they each other's audiences that's the worst thing that might happen basically. So create space for them. We usually call it cannibalization. They eat each other in a sense of not in a sense that you might think of but in a sense of just grabbing people's attention and not leaving too much space for the other influencers to breathe. So just give them some space and it will work better. I just had a very clear visual of influencers, agents of change, just visuals being stronger than facts. I think we have the last one. Beth asks this, do you think it's possible to serve two audiences? In this case, indigenous people in the US and everyone else. The language is hard. I want to call people in but stay real within our native community. So be true to your closest community but also speak to a wider audience. I feel you. We usually, when we talk to the community, whether we talk to LGBT plus community and when we talk to the general, we usually use two pathways and two messages. But by messages I mean systems, not just like different sentences or stuff. And we usually assume that even general public messaging is going to reach the community. So it should take that into account. And what I mean, for example, is that when we talk to the community, we use more complicated and more complex language because the general public doesn't have the knowledge and it's not really that interested in some minutiae which make basically the world for LGBT plus people, right? We don't expect them to know that. But there are some bridges that are some limits that we are not going to cross. And there are some, you can't be over simplistic because you need to have, even if it will make your messaging a little bit harder to understand, maybe you can do it gradually to sort of educate general public and make them understand at the end. But usually it helps if one of your group, well, also general public is not really a good target audience. If you can segment it, then do it. It's very, again, it's very difficult to talk to everybody. Your own community or a very specific community is a very good target audience. The more specific it is, the easier it gets to imagine how you should reach them. Imagine the emotions, the values. Wonderful. Hubert, thank you so, so much.