 I know Alec Baldwin, so does Andrew. I'm Scott Rouse, I'm a body language expert and analyst and a trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. Mark? I'm Mark Bowden, expert in human behavior and body language, help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility, including some of the leaders of the G7 Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes, I wrote the number one best-selling book on behavior profiling influence and persuasion, and I train people in those exact things today. Greg Hartley, I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior, and I spend most of my time on Wall Street in corporate America. All right, today we're going to talk about Chris Cuomo, and he's gotten a little trouble lately, if you'll remember that. And Greg, why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to look at? Yes, so this video is from a four hour, 56 minute or five hour, 46 minute deposition regarding his involvement in his brother, the governor of New York's debacle around sexual harassment. That's about as much as you need to know. There's a lot of questioners and there's a lot going on here. Did Governor Cuomo acknowledge to you he had said the things to miss Bennet? She alleged he had said to her. No. Did he deny you that he had said the things to miss Bennet that she is alleging? He denied that he was trying to manipulate Charlotte Bennett the way that I believe is alleged. I understand that he denied having an intention to you. I'm asking, did he deny using the words that she says he used? Which words? OK. So did the governor deny to you telling her that he was lonely? No. Did he acknowledge that he did tell Miss Bennet he was lonely? No, not that I recall. Did the governor acknowledge that he had said to Miss Bennet he wanted to ride off on his motorcycle and take a woman into the mountains? No. Did he deny saying that? No. Did he acknowledge asking her about recent hookups? Say that again. Did the governor deny asking Miss Bennet about recent hookups? No, I don't remember ever discussing any of these statements with him specifically. That's why I'm saying I don't remember him acknowledging them or denying them because I don't remember discussing them with him. OK. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so let's start right at the beginning of this. Only point I'm going to touch on this is the Stan Laurel face that he makes at the start. You know, Stan and Laurel. Hang on. I got the same thing up there at the top. Stan Laurel. Very safe. There you go. But it is, isn't it? It is Stan Laurel. So look, you know, we could make fun of this. But I think there's something very important about this in that. What was the character of Stan? He is innocent. He's slightly kind of bemused by the world around him, and he's very agreeable, all of that considered. So I instantly go, is this the strategy that this guy is going to play of of the innocent, slightly bemused, but very agreeable, interviewee. So let's see how that pans out. I'm just going to leave it at that. But I'm glad you picked up on that because it is just Stan Laurel right at the start. Scott, what else have you got other than Stan Laurel? All right, well, I'll just talk about what it looks like when you see somebody with their eyes furrow like that and they bring their their their eyes wide and when their brow furrows and their lips come back like that, that this part and his eyes start darting around as well. That indicates he's looking or he's he's processing negative information. So this is something he's really got to be careful with because he's getting ready to to to get in trouble, I think, here. And I think he's going to try to play stupid. That's what's going on. I think that's part of what that look was as well. The pauses, those let you know that they're thinking there's a lot of the obvious right out of the gate things for deception. So that the long pause of those, all those pauses in there, let's know he's thinking and structuring his answer as well. When it's again, when his lips are pulled to the side and he lets out that loud exhale, then he's got he's he's got a problem because that's sort of that. That's his pacifying gesture at that point or behavior, not a gesture, but a pacifying behavior. So he's trying to get unload some of that built up stress or attention in there. So this is this is coming on pretty strong for me. I think I think right out of the top. Greg, what do you got? Yes, I'm going to go a little bit different direction because the thing you're talking about where he draws his lips down is his baseline. Go watch him on his show. And I don't mean his normal baseline. I mean his show baseline. So if you watch his show anytime he's ready to attack someone and they come in, he does that kind of drawn down face and that forehead up. It's his stock and trade kind of a rubber face thing. And then the minute he realizes he's got something, he throws a big smile and jumps on the person. If you go watch him, you'll see it over and over and over. It's so ridiculous almost, but it's what's gotten him to where he's at. When he's in in taking stressful information, even when he's doing his baseline, his eyes are blinking is waiting to get all the information so he can jump back. That could be stressed because he's waiting to go back in or it could be nothing. But we see a lot of that kind of that kind of eye blinking here as well. And then he starts to navigate language. I think rather than playing innocent, he's playing Fordham JD. He's got a lot of degree. He understands the meaning of language. And I think he's very specific with how he approaches these words. He even says not those specific words. And he delays by saying which words say that again. And when they do that, now, at the end of this, he says, well, we never talked about any of that. Well, he knew what they were going to ask. So he's playing the game. He's smart enough to do that. But you're right. He regulates with his chin. He points his chin toward her when it does increase stress and his respiration increases. And there's an explosive blow out of air and a little chew in the mouth. So we can see he's starting to feel some stress. The last thing I'll point out is we always say, Chase, you call it etching, I call it residuals. If you do this all the time, your face will stick that way in his has. Chase, what do you got? Yep, I totally agree with you. And we want to look for an initial trend here. His demeanor does do this constantly raised eyebrows in some circumstances. And it's usually when he's talking to somebody either on his show or an interview that he doesn't know what's coming next or he's unsure whether of his social standing. That's the times that I see that most these. And that's just this eyebrows constantly raised. And you can think of all humans doing this. If we if you try to make the opposite of what anger does to your eyebrows, this is a way that we get agreeableness with other people. Exactly like Mark was describing his blink rate, which is how often a person blinks as an indicator of stress. His blink rate is pretty high in this video, but his baseline since we have tons of stuff to go back and look at his baselines around 24 and his blink rates a little bit above that. He's breathing into his chest instead of his abdomen here. So which is a potential deviation from his baseline. I do not see this when he's on TV very much. And there isn't this. I think if this was truthful, there's not going to be a need to really clarify and pretend to process each question. And we see some of that pretend processing when there's some contemplation there that's not actually real, because there's there's no facial expression to really match it. And that's just that specifically goes back to when he's stating that they never discussed anything specifically. So it's it's kind of a shell game with exact words. And I think we're going to see this theme pick up here in just a few minutes and a lot more heat with a lot more heat to it. Did Governor Cuomo acknowledge to you he had said the things to miss Bennett and she alleged he had said to her? No. Did he deny you that he had said the things to miss Bennett that she is alleging? He denied that he was trying to manipulate Charlotte Bennett the way that I believe is alleged. I understand that he denied having an intention to you. I'm asking, did he deny using the words that she says he used? Which words? OK. So did the governor deny to you telling her that he was lonely? No. Did he acknowledge that he did tell miss Bennett he was lonely? No, not that I recall. Did the governor acknowledge that he had said to miss Bennett he wanted to ride off on his motorcycle and take a woman into the mountains? No. Did he deny saying that? No. Did he acknowledge asking her about recent hookups? Say that again. Did the governor deny asking miss Bennett about recent hookups? No, I don't remember ever discussing any of these statements with him specifically. That's why I'm saying I don't remember him acknowledging them or denying them because I don't remember discussing them with him. OK. Good. OK. And so today's not the first time. Today's not the first time you were hearing of, you know, some of the things that she said he said, right? No, counselor, I am aware of pretty much everything I've been told. Maybe not everything, but again. My perspective here is no disrespect to any of the people putting forward allegations. This is my brother and I'm trying to help my brother through a situation where he has told me he did nothing wrong. And that's it for me. How do I protect my family? How do I help protect him? Probably should have been thinking more about how I protect myself, which just never occurred to me. And that was it. It wasn't this tactical, what do you do? What do you not do? You ask me a question, I'll give you an answer. You want my take on how something's playing? I'll tell you. But I'm not part of his team. And I wasn't part of any kind of manipulation of any kind. So for me, it was, you know, the way you guys would probably talk to your siblings about it. You know, what is this? Did you do this? No, I didn't do this. OK, well, then how did this happen? Why is Charlotte Bennett saying these things? Well, I thought that, you know, I was able to help. I was doing this. That was the conversation. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, he starts with that trademark intake, that wrinkle brow that stays up and it's drawn up all the time and constant eye contact. When he starts to process information, we see his blink rate grow up. Now, he knows this is a stressful question so that blink rate can just be data intake, as you call it, shutter speed, or it can also be that he's feeling some stress and that's starting to happen. If you don't think he knows that this is a stressful question, watch his chin drop to protect his throat, which is instinctive in humans. And that is a way for us to get away from danger. He then starts to navigate his language. He's very specific and he's working through words. And he typically in his show is a concrete short sentence guy. He gets through points like that, like a lawyer. And in this case, he's doing something else. And then even though he's got all this residual, you see him do an RFA, a request for approval at iLok when his head moves and his chin goes down. There's a little disgust when the guy asks the question in the sides of his nose. And then there's another request for approval when he says, this is not disrespect, this is not alive, this is my brother. And then the one that you only see here at this one time is him doing this kind of disdain thing around my brother said. And what he's talking about here, those words where he says I could help, he's not talking about himself, he's talking about his brother saying he could help Charlotte with her sexual assault background. And you see some disgust there. Looks like he might not be really happy with his brother dragging him into the point he is. That's all I would take from there. Scott, what do you got? All right, I think we're seeing some, excuse me, some really slick acting here. Cause he's used to being on TV and he's used to things coming up and being stressful but handling those at the same time. So we're gonna see a lot of perception management during this. So I'll be bringing that up, I think a lot because we'll see a lot of it here. When he's doing the head nod, a lot of people want to say, oh, he's lying because he's nodding his ass as he's saying no. That's what I've coined as a confirmation nod. So he's making sure that point gets across what he's saying. He doesn't have any illustrators. Remember, Aldert Vrij, he did a lot of studies on people telling the truth and people lying. And what he found out was people who are most of the time being deceptive, they don't use a lot of illustrators. They don't use their hands very often. We're gonna see a big change in this later on as we go along. And not using hands a lot leans toward deception. When he says, I'm aware of everything I've been told pretty much, but not everything. It's like, you can put anything in there. You can say, oh, I did know that part. No, I didn't know that part. That's just saying, you might as well not say anything at that point because you're saying both, you're giving two answers there. I'm aware of everything, but not everything at the same time. So that's kind of squirming me if you ask me. See lots of shoulder shrugs and those shoulder forward, that indicates deception as well in this situation being surrounded by all these other cues we're seeing as a cluster. So I think on a one to 10, I wanna give him an eight for deception on this. Chase, what do you got? Right, so I agree you guys have covered a lot of this nonverbal stuff here. So let's cover some verbals and let's cover some of that. There's two big issues here. Number one, if his brother is innocent, he should be accusing these other people of lying and he would not be worried about disrespect if he believed that these were liars and telling lies. And he defaults to my brother told me he did nothing wrong instead of my brother's innocent or he didn't do this. And he identifies this desire to maintain this distance from the case. He's unwilling to call the victims liars. He's attempting to sell the story based on what he heard and not what he believes or knows. Huge, huge difference. And this is a major red flag from just a verbal standpoint. And I think this is a great start to the video. Right at the beginning, he shows us this blatantly obvious artificial recall which we saw some of in the last video. And I think he's extremely aware of having heard this material before but he takes the time to pretend to think about it and answer. And this looks like he's trying to recall it, probably advise him a little time. And I think he, there's a statement here. He says, I probably should have been thinking more about how to protect myself. And this is great. It's a self-image boosting behavior where he kind of covertly shows you how humble and giving and selfless he is. And it's not actually working very well. And when there's this, I wasn't a part of any manipulation. He avoids eye contact. He goes upward. There's a postural retreat. Leans back, the humorous pulls in. I think this is likely deceptive because he's more worried about making a statement than selling it and being convincing to the people. I think it's unusual he would speak about forgetting to protect himself because once he makes you identify with his story, he then reveals the whole thing here is about protecting himself. So he says, I should, I'm not here to do that. And then the entire thing is about that. Finally, one thing you guys didn't touch on yet is his hands are just locked down in his lap. So one thing that's really incredible when we try to control one part of our body, it tends to sprout out in a higher degree in other areas. And there's tons of this stuff here. So if we call that nonverbal leakage, most body language people do, behavior people do. So when you try to like hold your hands really still, it's gonna come out in your shoulders and your eye movements and all kinds of other stuff. We're seeing that here. I've got a few more things about Marco. What do you got? Yeah, so if he is being honest here, and I think there are some elements of honesty here, he's being honest that he is now trying to protect himself. This whole area is really for me about an abdication of responsibility. There's the idea of the brother, first of all. So look, if I'm involved in this, it's because I'm a brother, not because I made any kind of actual kind of conscious thought that I get involved. I have to be involved because, hey, I'm a brother. You know what it's like, families, hey, families. You just get involved in this kind of thing. So that's an abdication of responsibility. There's a lot of double shoulder shrugs in there, a lot. I just lost count. But what I did pick up on is a double double, a double double shoulder shrug on maybe not everything. And I think again, that's the, hey, what do you do? Hey, what do you do when you're in a position where you're not getting told everything about everything? So again, he's trying to propagate this story that may well be quite honest and factual in that he isn't being given all the information all the time. So he's at a loss, he's at a lack there. Again, he's still doing this wide-eyed, very wide-eyed innocence around this, that the Stan Laurel, I am agreeable, but slightly bemused and really quite innocent around here because, hey, I'm just a brother. I got involved and I just, I don't know everything that's going on here. So I think at this point, I'm gonna say that's his strategy, that's his gamble going forward. And I think what's interesting is, he's not gonna be able to make that one last. He's gonna drop it in the end. And we're gonna see that later on where it gives out and it's not the strategy that he's gonna continue with. There, that's all I got on that one. Transfer. And so today's not the first time, today's not the first time you're hearing of some of the things that she said he said, right? No, counselor, I am aware of pretty much everything I've been told, maybe not everything, but again, my perspective here with no disrespect to any of the people put in forward allegations. This is my brother and I'm trying to help my brother through a situation where he has told me he did nothing wrong. And that's it for me. How do I protect my family? How do I help protect him? Probably should have been thinking more about how I protect myself, which just never occurred to me. And that was it. It wasn't this tactical, what do you do? What do you not do? You ask me a question, I'll give you an answer. You want my take on how something's playing? I'll tell you, but I'm not part of his team. And I wasn't part of any kind of manipulation of any kind. So for me, it was, you know, the way you guys would probably talk to your siblings about it, you know, what is this? Did you do this? No, I didn't do this. Okay, well then, how did this happen? Why is Charlotte Bennett saying these things? Well, I thought that, you know, I was able to help, I was doing this. That was the conversation. Did you ever reach out to sources to find, to get information regarding any of the complainants or any other women other than at the direction or request of Mr. Rosa? Did you do it on your own? No. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so there's an uncharacteristic data intake here. Number one, look at his forehead. It's very smooth. We don't see his forehead smooth many times here. And he's not making eye contact with this woman as she's talking to him. His eyes are downright. His chin is lowered and his blink rate is up. There's that little disdain on the side of his face. And then his brow is altogether more relaxed, but you do see a little grief muscle. And you can't see it usually in him because there's so much there. No eye contact at all. And then his chin comes up at, did you do it on your own? And he goes, no. He's been waiting for her to say that, give him that out. He's just not forthcoming with anything. He's not going to give her any free information. And he just waits her out and then responds to a yes, no question. For you, this should tell you something. Don't ask yes, no questions. Those are called leading questions. If you said, tell me about your involvement in. Then he has to say, I didn't do it. He has to say, I had absolutely no involvement. It's something, but yes or no, all that interchange allows him to just go, no, didn't have any involvement. That's it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I totally agree with you. There's a immediate and perfect little chin boss movement when the questions come in there. And there is a concealed swallow during that question. And I totally agree. His nose is kind of followed by that chin thrust. And most of the peer reviewed research that talks about this suggests that this implies defiance or confidence. And I think in a scenario, there's a little defiance going on because this is well prepared. And he conceals his breathing a little bit more. There's some large breaths that he's trying to hide. If you're just breathing normally and not being deceptive, you're less likely to try to hide regular old breathing. Just breathing deeply on a witness stand is fine, but trying to conceal it indicates that there's still your body is trying to conceal information to begin with. And I think this answer, especially an answer to a question like this, should have come quickly if it were true. It wouldn't have required a huge amount of recall, a lot of thought. And keep in mind he's an anchor. He's used to thinking on his feet and this is an aberration for him. He should not, and many things while he's on TV, he does not have to do much to recall data. And this is about himself here. So I think that's very unusual. Scott? All right, we see the corner of his mouth coming down and doing that tightening thing again. And that shows stress. I mean, obviously there's a lot of stress for him, but these are the ways he's showing stress. Now his brow and his little grief muscle there does engage some. And again, like Greg was saying, this is part of his baseline, his eyebrows being up and his etchings. What's one you call, Greg, the etchings? I just always call it residuals because it's everywhere. Okay, we're gonna get etching. Chase calls it etching, I think. Oh, okay. I knew it was, I thought, because Chase was something else. But so we're seeing a lot of that. But again, I think that's part of his baseline. His voice tone is soft and it's quiet. And I think he's been waiting on this. I think you're right. I think he's been waiting for this question and he's prepared for it. He's prepared for all of them because he's an attorney and he's used to this and he knows how it's supposed to look. So we're also seeing a lot of perception management in here. One thing he didn't think about though is his darting eyes and that indicates that he's processing negative information and structuring. So he's thinking about how bad that question probably is for him and having to say no at that point. His chin up, his chin's up and that indicates confidence. But then again, I think that's part of his perception management because he knows things have to look good and he knows what's supposed to look good from being on TV so much. So Mark, where do you get? Yeah, I'm just gonna say one thing to Greg's point for you to look out for is this idea of, you know, not asking questions that you can just answer with a yes or no. Cause further down the line, there's gonna be a bunch of questions that you could answer yes or no to and he just talks and talks and talks. Talks a little bit too much. So that I was there going, man, just say no to that. Like no would be, don't anything. Like you could just answer no and next question and he doesn't. So that's really interesting because I think you're gonna see further down the line. He really breaks down and his Stan Laurel Act isn't gonna hold out. There, that's all I'm gonna say on that one. Did you ever reach out to sources to find, to get information regarding any of the complainants or any other women other than at the direction or request of Mr. Rosa? Did you do it on your own? No. What about research or opposition research on individuals who might have done an investigation of the allegations of harassment against the governor? I never heard anything about that. Were you involved in any of that? No. You never heard anything about that? No. No one asked you to do any research on Mr. Kim? No. On Ms. Clark? No. You were never in any discussions where Mr. Kim or Ms. Clark were discussed? Ah, yes. I'm gonna tell us about those discussions. That you guys were gonna be doing the investigation and what that meant about how long this would take and the nature of the process. All right, Chase, what do you got? I think this is a perfect example of how important questions are. His denials might be truthful in that the question didn't ask whether he did those things. The question that he was asked was, was he asked about those things? So if the governor called him and said, I wish I could get some info on Blank, then he still would be truthful in saying that he was never asked to perform those actions. It was just a suggestion from a person. So I'm willing to bet that this little attempt to get them to smile and connect was returned with no smiles, no acknowledgements and no behaviors that he could pick up on or maybe feed off of. You can see him expectantly observing them after this kind of strange arm tightening response when he mentions them. Then it gets kind of internally upset and you can see that his charm had no effect on them. And I think if you watch this video with the sound off, you'll see exactly what it looks like like when you're looking at a kid who's been told to keep their hands down and then people are throwing dodgeballs at him. That's exactly what you're seeing here. This is because of the protective nature of our limbic system in our brains. Protection is about arteries mostly. So what we're seeing here is probably the moral artery, radial artery, brachial artery and the shoulders coming up to protect the carotid artery up here. So we're seeing a fear response. And keep in mind, the reason that so much of this is reliable is that these behaviors occur without awareness. That's one thing that we don't say often enough here is that these are unconscious behaviors. And the more you tell somebody to control one part of the body, the more it's gonna leak out somewhere else. And I think that there's an attempt at control of the hands. And we're seeing it leak out all over the place. Mark, what are you doing? Yeah, so his first strategy was agreeableness, I think. Now he's being destabilized, I would say, because when the word investigation is mentioned, he really leans in. And now he's curious about this. Now, even though he's protective, he's leaning into that question to go, what's going on here? Where's this going? Now, he's got some prepared answers because I want you to notice how the first two nos are very different from the second two nos. I think the first two nos are very well-prepared. He knows he has to answer no to those first two questions because he knew those were coming. I think the second two, the nos are very different. My assumption or my theory might be is that he hadn't necessarily prepared those other two nos. He doesn't have to say no to that, but he is gonna say no. The first two nos, he has to say no to. He's already worked that one out. If that's ever asked, I'm saying no to it. I think he's almost surprised by the other two. And he's going, no, no, I didn't even think that one would come up right now. That might have come a bit later or not at all. I mean, that's just like a bonus no that I can throw into there. So a sense of maybe relief on those second two nos, whereas he's very much stronger on the first two. There, that's all I got on that one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, a little bit of shrinking target or turtling or whatever you wanna call it. His body kind of rolls forward and he breaks eye contact. Then he looks up and he makes really hard eye contact. I think when you ask the question where you asked to research in his head, he's defining what research means. You gave him the wrong question. You should have said there's a missed opportunity for what information did you find out about the victims? Not where you asked to research. That's a very different question. I might not have to research in the business I'm in. I might just open a file and look. There's no research to that. So there's that part. His brows up at intake, so this is his normal. Yep, yep, yep. What do you got to say? What do you got to say? And then he goes to something. I always say people get subroutines and they're kind of like roaches when lights come on and things happen for them. This guy's a product. I mean, he is a news anchor. He's always in front of people. He knows how to deal with stress and we see a couple of those. That smile, that's what he does when he is in data intake and you disagree with him. The smile pops out and he comes right back at you. We see that here. He's prepared Mark, I agree. If there's nothing else you walk away from this clip with, you should look at the no when he's talking about the women who were victims and the no about Mr. Kim. Because those two no's are very different. One of them's a nervous head shake no and the other is a very emphatic no. So it's interesting to pay attention to what he's doing there. And finally, the last one, he does this. And a lot of people will try to assign meaning to that. This is Scott, this is where my concept to body language Frankenstein originally came from. If that means something in your culture, it means nothing anywhere else. And if you do this all the time because you're on TV or you're in New York or who does this all the time and it means something there, then I don't know that it has a lot of meaning. So we have to be careful not to assign way too much meaning to that. But I do think that there's some dancing around what's being asked versus what the intent of the question is here. Scott, what do you got? All right. Well, in question one, that lip movement and that swallow it, that's sort of prepping. He's getting ready for what's coming. And then when she says investigation, that chin goes up and that usually indicates confidence. But in this case, like we're going back to perception management, he's trying to look like everything's okay, which we see quite often in this thing. His voice volume is fairly low. And on that third one, when he asked about Ms. Clark, the no, that thing's up like two notes. It's up from note, no, it's not that high, but it's up enough for you'll notice it. Then he says, you know the nature of the process and he does that loud little exhale there. That indicates frustration. So I think he's a little frustrated at this point that he's answering these questions. I think it was ready for him, but I still think he's a little bit frustrated in there. We're seeing the shoulder shrugs. Again, that's coming from a lot of stress as well. And you'll see that one. So you'll see a lot of shoulder shrugs at an exhale when someone is pretty sure they're being implicated for a crime. You'll see that when the, what do you call it? The vice starts tightening on him. You'll see that a lot. The blank stare, that indicates that he's accepting that he's in trouble, that blank stare looking straight at him. So I think he knows he's in trouble at this point. He can smell it coming. And that's why he's doing that. He's accepted, he's got to sit there and take what's coming at this point because he knows it's gonna be trouble. What about research or opposition research on individuals who might have done an investigation of the allegations of harassment against the governor? I never heard anything about that. Were you involved in any of that? No. You never heard anything about that? No. No one asked you to do any research on Mr. Kim? No. On Ms. Clark? No. You were never in any discussions where Mr. Kim or Ms. Clark were discussed? Ah, yes. I mean, tell us about those discussions. That you guys were gonna be doing the investigation. And, you know, what that meant about how long this would take and, you know, the nature of the process. All right, be good? Yeah. All right. Did you discuss the substance of what Ms. Bennett had alleged to the governor's side with Mr. Rosa? I was never anxious to go through the details of anything that was alleged. Why is that? Because it makes me uncomfortable. Why is that? Because I don't like what's being alleged. It should make you uncomfortable. It's like it made Ms. Bennett uncomfortable. That's for her to say. All right, Chase, what do you got? So let's try to look at this question in another way. Scott, ask me really quick if I killed somebody. Chase, did you kill Michelle? I was never anxious to kill anyone because killing just makes me uncomfortable. So yes. That's not a denial. So this is a full blown lack of denial. It's the first time we're seeing a hardcore deviation from his usual place where his eyes go to recall information. He then goes to internal dialogue. So he goes to three o'clock. Our three o'clock is looking at the video. Then he goes to internal dialogue, which is kind of this downward movement. And this is what Greg will probably explain this a little bit because I'm sure Greg has some notes on that. But his failure to say anything is false or that Ms. Bennett is lying is pretty much all you really need to know. He won't say it's false and he's not saying it's lying. So right here, if we're just using my behavioral table of elements, we have a lack of denial. That's four eye-home deviations of four. He's out of normal internal dialogue. I'll leave that alone. We'll score that a zero. But he's accessing, over eye accessing to a simple question, I'll make that a four and a non-answer statement, which would also be a four, which is a score of 16, which is a very high likelihood of deception. Mark? Yeah, so look for approval there on it makes me uncomfortable. And then it should make you uncomfortable. Well, shouldn't it be it should make me uncomfortable or I should be uncomfortable. So he's socializing this idea of being uncomfortable. He's trying to make it something we should all feel, which is maybe true or maybe false or something in between. But why socialize it? Why have to socialize it? Why bring us all in? Why bring us into it? Well, because the interviewer here is taking no part of it there because it is a bit of an attack. It's a bit of an attack that look, society says that we should be uncomfortable around this. So stop asking me these questions. Of course, she continues with the questions there. So he's using socialization as a manipulative lever there to get himself out, which compounds on top of what Chase was talking about there. It just adds another dimension to say that's very possibly deceptive at the start and then on top of that, socialization of that to make it all okay. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, so I always say that humans are always concerned about personal extinction. And that can mean anything that you hold dear being torn apart. I say a good interrogator takes two of the three things in your little box, destroys those, and then holds the third one and goes, ha, ha, ha, look what I have. And you'll give them anything to save that. When a person gets in this position and he has built a career around the things this guy's built his career around, images has got to be important. So I think that I accessing, while it's all over the place, is real. I think he goes down into his right, which I typically associate with emotion in people. And then he moves up to what I've seen him when he's recalling conversations over here. And then he moves his eyes around a little bit. And I think all that movement is because he's trying to work through exactly how to say the right thing without creating some personal extinction for him. If in fact, he's always said you shouldn't attack the witness, if you shouldn't attack the victim, then he has to very carefully navigate what he says here. And you see him look down into his left internal voice. Well, let me see how do I say this. And then his breathing pattern changes, his chin drops, and his brows go to a telling mode. We typically associate this with brow beating when somebody's looking under their brows and talking to you. With glasses, it's more pronounced, but the same idea it's telling. And then we see some concern, and maybe even a little disgust. And then when the woman asked him, why he does the you're kidding move, you're kidding, right? His hands, all the whole thing says you're kidding. And then he avoids speaking for her. That tells me all this is tied to his message. Look, I would never attack a victim. And the whole message flows through that. Now, whether he's being honest or whether he's just protecting self, not important to me, but I do see that inside his head, there's a whole lot going on. I can't read his mind, but I think there's a whole lot going on before he delivers this message. Scott, what do you got? All right, well, after question one, then there are no illustrators in this thing. It's just his head and his torso. Again, go back to Albert Breage, where he talks about, his studies show that if you're being honest, most likely you're gonna use your hands as illustrators. His answer is slow and guarded and carefully worded because he knows he's sort of getting in the corner here. And that look of helplessness with his eyebrows up and his voice is low and his shoulders are pulled forward. All that indicates acceptance of helplessness. And I think on a one to 10, I'm gonna go ahead and keep it easy and say I give him eight and a half or nine on being deceptive in this one. Did you discuss the substance of what Ms. Bennett had alleged to the governor's side with Mr. Rosa? I was never anxious to go through the details of anything that was alleged. Why is that? Because it makes me uncomfortable. Why is that? Because I don't like what's being alleged. It should make you uncomfortable. It's like it made Ms. Bennett uncomfortable. That's for her to say. All right, are we good? Yeah. You had a chance to look at this now. What are yours is your understanding of what this is? It is a set of ideas about what the governor may or may not say with respect to the allegations. At a press conference, right? Yes. And who to your understanding prepared the first draft that is reflected on pages 10079 and 10080 and 10081? I don't know. It came from Stephanie Benton. Stephanie Benton did not prepare the draft. Okay, if it came from Ms. Benton, it was not prepared by her who is the likely author then? I don't know. Is it the governor? He would almost undoubtedly have been a part of the drafting process. And do you recall commenting on this? I do not. Again, I was most often a peripheral figure. I'm the brother. Yes, I understand the media, but to be clear, everyone in that room understands the media. They all have media contacts. There is no division between politics and media. We all know each other. So the idea that I was there because I'm the media person is just not true. They had multiple media experts who had much closer connections to the people who were covering this than I do. In my beat, my show, I'm not about New York state politics. I mean, I hadn't even covered the mayoral race recently. Other people were, I got while it was somewhat germane, but this is not my world. So it shouldn't be surprising that I didn't have a heavy hand in a lot of these things because I didn't. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so some nice images he conjures up here. Most often a peripheral figure. So most often a peripheral figure, which means there would be times when he wasn't a peripheral figure. There could be times when he was a central figure, he's just saying most often he's a peripheral figure out there. But what a great image to conjure because now in our minds, we've got him really just outside the group, kind of a shadowy figure kind of lurking there, just ambling around, not really part of anything. So beautiful image to conjure up. And he really lays it down here. I'm the brother. I'm the brother. As if we would now go, oh, sorry, you're the brother. Okay, well, let's stop all of this then because he's the brother. Like, so sorry, we didn't realize that. Let's call it all off. We don't need to ask you any more questions because your brotherly relationship means all of this is okay and we get it. So strange kind of alibi to put down that he hopes would work. Then I didn't have a heavy hand in a lot of these things. Well, again, that could mean that you had a heavy hand in some of these things, doesn't it? So what a net net of this, being the brother is no alibi at all, probably puts you more centrally in it as well, puts you into a worse situation. Okay, he's saying net net, he was a figure and he did have a hand. In fact, he did have a heavy hand. That's all I got on that one. Scott, what do you got? All right, well, net question one, everything looks truthful as it should be. I mean, everything looks the way it should if you're being honest about something. And the second one, we're hearing those fading facts when he says, in the second question, when he says, I don't know, that gets a little quiet there for me. And on three, he says, I don't know even faster. So he's getting a little bit of stress poking in here. And then he speaks quietly. His eyes are wide and those eyebrows are up. I think he's on alert here too. So he can't give too much information about himself and this situation, but he's having to. So that's really making him, that's giving him a lot of stress at this point. When she says, do you remember commenting on this? He doesn't contract and say, no, I don't. He says, I do not. Like I always say, if I said, Chase, you wanna go to Arby's, you wouldn't say, no, I do not. You'd say, no, I'm not gonna eat at Arby's. I would love, I love Arby's, but I don't know. Do you like Arby's, Chase? I love it. Oh, after he says, I have to be clear or to be clear. He's got his chin down, which is sort of the opposite of being confident. So he's getting a little bit guarded at that point. And usually when you see that, a lot of times you'll see the chin go down and protect the neck completely. But when it just goes down a little bit, then you start thinking about that as someone who's really not sure about answering the question with those words. Not insecure with answering it, but answering it the way they know they're going to. It's giving little heads up to watch out. Then we're seeing what are called chin to shoulder statements. When somebody looks, they say, I don't know what you're talking about. You see little kids do that when they're in trouble. So a lot of times he's doing the chin to shoulder thing. You don't see that really often in situations like this, but when you do, that's a heads up every time. That's why I see those. That, we see those shoulder shrugs. Those really quick ones we see four of those. And I think two of the chin to shoulders. So on a one to 10, I'm going to give this for deception. I'm going to go ahead and give it a 10. I think he's full of it on this one. So, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm not sure about the full of it. What I will say is when he starts, he's in that intake face. The brow is up. He's got this slack jaw that you're talking about, Mark. And that's who he is until a few well-placed words he responds with and then the show face disappears. One of his shoulders rises when he says he would have undoubtedly been, have been involved talking about his brother writing this statement. And then the other thing that I noticed is that she didn't ask, do you know? She said, did you know? Do you know means do you know now? Did you know means did you know then? Might be a minor point to you or me, but if I'm given the choice to say no, I didn't know and I know now. Yeah, then I'm gonna do it if I'm in a bind and I'm on the stand. So there we go. But then there are only a couple of other things. He switches gears. We usually talk about chaff and redirect where a person blows out information and then redirects when you pick it up. Here he redirects and chaffs. He immediately goes, oh, you're gonna let me talk about me, you're gonna let me talk about something other than the question at hand. And he does that little nervous smile. And then he says with good congruence and messaging with his hands illustrating on the marks with his brow down and telling with sarcasm in his face and a little smile that's characteristic of his retort. He says basically, look, I'm a little fish. The guys in there are much bigger fish than me. I'm just a newscaster. These guys are power players. And he just walked away from the conversation right there. One thing to be careful of is New Yorkers when they're not being contemptuous, we'll still have a half-sided smile sometimes when they have an answer for you. It might be deep down some kind of contempt, but I have a 90-year-old New Yorker friend who when you talk to her and she's got an answer, that face is gonna come up, that little smile. So culture plays a huge part in that. And I think we just need to be cautious with that one. Chase, what are you got? Yeah, you guys covered a lot of what I was gonna cover here. And I've definitely agreed. I think he accidentally responds instantaneously to this first question. When he's saying Stephanie did not prepare the draft. And the reason is, this automatically suggests intimacy with the situation, familiarity with the draft. There's certainty about who did it and how the draft was made. And the one thing I think that a lawyer should really pick up on here is that Chris responds rapidly and openly when there is a need to correct the record. So when information is presented that he's able to correct, he's more likely to offer truthful and instant responses. And I think this could have been leveraged like crazy, deliberately presenting a person that responds like this with information that's inaccurate just so they will correct it. That is a wonderful interview tactic, especially in the courtroom. But the lawyer then asks this question that has zero to do with his actions. She asks about his memory instead of the actual preparation of the brief, which is I would have probably written that question a little bit differently because it's very easy to deny the memory of the event. If I'm questioning you for a murder, I'm not going to say you remember doing the killing. You could just say, no, that's a lot easier to deny. So I think the scariest thing, one of the scariest thing I've ever heard in all the videos that we've analyzed of all the people is him saying, there's no division between politics and the media. I thought that was horrifying going through it this morning. And Mark, I'm absolutely with you on the heavy hand. I didn't have a heavy hand in this. I think he definitely had a hand because that's what that means. That's exactly what his statement means. That's all I got for this one. You had a chance to look at this now. What are yours, is your understanding of what this is? It is a set of ideas about what the governor may or may not say with respect to the allegations. At a press conference, right? Yes. And who, to your understanding, prepared the first draft that is reflected on Pages 10079 and 10080 and 10081? I don't know. It came from Stephanie Benton. Stephanie Benton did not prepare the draft. Okay, if it came from Ms. Benton, it was not prepared by her, who is the likely author then? I don't know. Is it the governor? He would almost undoubtedly have been a part of the drafting process. And do you recall commenting on this? I do not. Again, I was most often a peripheral figure. I'm the brother. Yes, I understand the media, but to be clear, everyone in that room understands the media. They all have media contacts. There is no division between politics and media. We all know each other. So the idea that I was there because I'm the media person is just not true. They had multiple media experts who had much closer connections to the people who were covering this than I do. In my beat, my show, I'm not about New York state politics. I didn't even cover the mayoral race recently. I just, other people were. I got while it was somewhat germane, but this is not my world. So it shouldn't be surprising that I didn't have a heavy hand in a lot of these things because I didn't. All right. Did you communicate with Mr. Rosa about Miss Bennet's on-camera interview? No, and I didn't see it. It was more informational, like, what? You know, like, what do you make of this? Like, I was asking her. I'll go first on this one because mine's gonna be super short. I do. At the end of the statement, we see that chin to shoulder thing. Again, he's got those hands up in the mercy hands. So, you know, Lord, please forgive me. Have mercy on me. Please forgive me. I think this is, I don't think this is true. He's totally deceptive. On one to 10, I'm giving him a 10. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be sure as well. My net net of this is it was disgust. That was a discussion. I think from what I'm, you know, hearing in the words, you can net net it out that there was a discussion about it. There's a single shoulder shrug on or around. I didn't see it. So again, it's enough given his baseline and given is that normally he's a double shoulder shrug guy that there is something distinctly different going on around that element there. Chase, what do you think? Yep, totally agree. Super short. There's that single-sided shrug. There's fidgeting and there's hesitation here. That's already a score of 12 when 11 is pretty likely to be deception. There's a classic example of what I call wrong question excitement. And I think we're seeing just a touch of that excitement because the question was asked in a way where he could make a denial in a certain direction. And he accidentally, I think, goes on to confirm that the answer is yes in his own words. And then I think it leads him to panic. And I think his panic is visible in his face and his breathing, which leads to his call for kind of a social rescue that you see his almost begging for approval right at the end of the clip. His eyebrows are open, his palms are there, his head's turned and there's some shrugging going on. And I think that's what's happening there. He's asking for a little life ring at the end of that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm a little darker than you are on this one. I think that there's something more meticulous going on in that last one. But let's start off breaking eye contact unlike him in data intake. He's got a pretext of whatever he's looking at, he looks away from it, looks back down. Look, it's only a text. How much time can that take? He's doing something with his right hand. Is he writing or is he scratching on something? So there's energy there for sure. That last thing he does a provocative statement is what I think he does. He's saying, look, I was just trying to see what was going on. And then he does this whole helpless thing. And I think what he's trying to do is fish to see if he'll get something back because he does it one more time in that deposition where he asks the name of someone and he's fishing for information. Remember, we interview people, but most of us have never interviewed the same number of people as a TV news anchor. Those guys interview people every day of the year, years and years and years in a row. And he was at ABC before CNN. So he knows what he's doing. That's what I see. Did you communicate with Mr. Rosa about Miss Bennet's on-camera interview? No, and I didn't see it. It was more informational, like, what? You know, like, what do you make of this? Like, I was asking her. Were you part of any discussions with members of the senior staff or consultants in which the credibility of the woman who made the accusations of groping was discussed? Never as a function of how to attack the credibility of the accuser. The confusion and the lack of understanding of why this happened. I guess generally that goes to whether or not these people believed it, but no. And again, I would never be a part of something like that. It is an impossibility of fact. And it is demonstrably false that I was ever even near a suggestion of anything like that. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I live for stuff like this. That just brings me joy. It's just that somebody can say stuff like that in these kind of situations. I love it. Never. And then he adjusts the frame completely. I mean, it's beautifully done. I mean, such a strong, yeah, exactly. It's such a beautifully strong never that I could leave at that point and go, okay, good, you've sold me. Then he just switches the frame so beautifully. So in attack, and then he raises the eyebrows to go, okay, here's my idea. Okay, we're going through it was never in attack. And then I think his idea is it was more about defense against confusion. So he brings back this idea, this standalone idea of we're always very confused as to what's going on. I don't know what's going on here. Just very, very confusing. I love just impossibility of fact. Impossibility of fact. I mean, I can't, I'm not even gonna bother to unpack just how brilliant that is and how it just doesn't work. It's beautifully put together, but it just doesn't work. It has no logic to it. Then he tries to hammer it down with demonstrably false. Again, great use of, great use of wording there. And now what I want you to realize is he's now going fully into rhetoric. And he's now, we're now gonna see that from him. And we're gonna see the interviewer start to try and close that down quite beautifully down the road here, but he's getting verbose. He's getting big. He's getting extreme. He's using his man of letters authority to bring in huge words here, but he's gonna get undone by it. By the way, here's the example where no would have been fine. No would have been okay. And he's just going into verbosity here. It's a big indicator that something extreme is going on around this. There's some, he's under huge stress here, I think. Scott, what do you think? All right, I think that I agree with you completely, but at the very top there, we see that little grimace. If you slow it down, go through a frame by frame and you'll see his teeth, the bottom teeth come out. And that's a micro expression of anger. I don't think he likes this question at all. And a lot of times you'll see when someone's answering things like that, they'll use their hands to illustrate and all that. And he's doing that and they're timed well. But then again, I think we're seeing this is still trying to get that perception management under control. So declarative statements with palms down, have greater validity than when they're up like this. So again, his or sideways, he's trying, he's coming on like he's being honest, obviously. But it's just this whole thing just looks sideways to me. His chin is up at first and that indicates he's got confidence. But then quite often there in the second half of it, it's down as he's finishing that rant about how it can never happen, the impossibility of facts and all that. And I think there's too much protest going on in here about him not being able to do that or not having done it when I think you're right, Mark. All I had to do was say, no, no, that would be it. So all right, Chase, what do you got? I'm gonna be using this video for training. This is gonna be a new part of my training repertoire. But I think initially the question is probably too long. It has a lot of detail in there and it's a very closed ended question. And there's lip compression that you can see before the answer and this is what humans do when we're withholding something, we're withholding an opinion about something. There's a chin thrust at never as a function of, and then he continues his sentence there, which I think is more defiance that we saw at the very beginning. I think this is the best clip ever. Like Mark, you were saying, I was involved, yes, but never, never, never, ever involved with that. And then there's a resume statement and that's kind of just a fancy name for us talking about someone saying, I couldn't have done it because of my character. That would never happen. There's a complete lack of denial of any positive denial and it's just laying a metaphor on top of a metaphor on top of a metaphor. And like you were saying about the frame, I had the same notes that I think you can deny anything using the right metaphors and language that just removes you completely from the denial in the first place. So finally, I think this facial expression like Scott, you were talking about right at the end of the clip is just priceless. There's some regret and shame, I think, at how this was handled. And there's a retreat to some internal dialogue and I think there's bodily concealment there. And I think this is a great one and I think it's a horrible one. And this is, I'm going with Scott's rating system and we get this a 9.841 out of 10. Was that the last one? No. Sorry. Don't say anything, Greg. Yeah, so at the end of this, that Joker smile, that disdain thing, whatever you want to call it, I'll call it a Joker smile because you'll be able to recognize it. I've used that one time on this show and that's when we were talking to Tarik and I was like, no, you know, it's just that disdain, that total disapproval of anything. Something is in his head that causes that. Now, whether it's that his brother dragged him into something he really didn't want to be, whether he thinks he just screwed up, we can't tell that. But we can certainly see that condemning look in his face. His respiration goes up immediately and he does some facial avoidance. It's interesting with the woman who's questioning, he does more facial avoidance than with the man. I found that interesting throughout this whole video. He has a quick lip retraction, you mentioned, Scott. I mean, a chase. And then my favorite is just Mark, you hit it. He reframed it. So if you ask me if I ever violated speeding laws, I would say, well, you know, if by that you mean I had a ticket that was in excess of speeding over 10 miles an hour. No, well, no, no. That's exactly what he just did. Is he said, if you'll let me reframe the question, the answer is no. You don't need all that. You don't need qualifiers. You don't need to reframe and move the thing down the path before you answer no. So those things alone put him way up there in deception in my case too. And I want to believe him. I want to think, yeah, okay, maybe he's disgusted with the fact he did something stupid. That still doesn't mean he's telling the truth when he says no. Were you part of any discussions with members of the senior staff or consultants in which the credibility of the woman who made the accusations of groping was discussed? Never as a function of how to attack the credibility of the accuser, the confusion, and the lack of understanding of why this happened. I guess generally that goes to whether or not these people believed it, but no. And again, I would never be a part of something like that. It is an impossibility effect. And it is demonstrably false that I was ever even near a suggestion of anything like that. I want you to know that if we ever get pulled over and you're driving and he walks up or she walks up and says, do you know how fast you were going? I'm gonna say, I know how fast he was going because I'm watching that the whole time. And if he says, did you know you're speeding? I'm gonna go, yeah, he knows he was speeding. No, I... And he says, where are you speeding? Do you mean by? Yeah. And if they say, did you know you were speeding? I'm gonna go, yeah, he knew he was speeding. He, yeah. No, I'm gonna frame my question. If you ask me that question, I'm gonna say, well, you know, I grew up in another place. You better hope I'm not there. You better hope I'm not there because I usually need to be rescued. I got the feeling I need to be rescued. That just means we're about to be pulled over, Scott, I'll push you out of the car. To your knowledge, no one in the chamber conveyed negative information about any of the complainants to the press. Is that right? I've never read anything that was a hit piece on one of the accusers. I've never seen it offered up by anyone who says they're a friend of Andrew on television. And I was never part of anything like that and I never heard that anybody was gonna do anything like that. What do you know about how Miss Boylan's personnel? Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think he's under real stress now because he's now relying on classic rhetoric. Rule of three there. I've never read it. I've never seen it. I've never been part of it because I've never even heard it. So just he's creating the strongest rhetorical argument and he does a lip retraction beforehand as well. Just understand no would be fine on this one. This is a yes or no answer. He could have said no and that would be over. He doesn't, he goes into full flow rhetoric. He's under stress. There's a problem for him on this one. Greg, what do you got on it? Yeah, guys, I watched this entire thing all five hours and 46 minutes of it. By this point, I'd be under stress too. Just sitting there for that long. It's kind of a crazy thing. He does a shrinking target. You know, his body kind of coils and that's not his nature. He sets up straight, he's a TV personality but he goes back to that intake model with the brow up, solid eye contact, chooses his words which to me Mark is an indicator he's under stress because in the past he would just blurt out a short, simple, concise sentence and go on. I see the lip withdrawal and then his illustrators fit everything but at the end, he does another lip compression. So I'm gonna leave it at that and say we're seeing stress rise in him. I think we're at about halfway through the entire deposition here and it's starting to get more pointed. Chase, what do you got? So let's try this again. Mark, will you please ask me if I killed somebody with a gun? Chase, did you kill somebody with a gun? I've never seen someone get stabbed with a screwdriver and I've never heard of anyone getting stabbed with a pair of scissors and I've never been part of anything like that and I've never heard that anyone was going to do that either. That's what we're seeing here. And this is a great example. If you go from specific to vague and not even the attorney notices, you've got some skills. You have some serious skills. As in this video, he didn't answer the question. He redirected to two very specific scenarios with carefully chosen words and then he became vague again with these carefully chosen words that are like that. And just to go back, the attorney's asking a question which is a leading question that then answers itself and then only asks if it's right or not. That's the question that he's being given which is a underhand softball kind of a question and it leaves the interviewee were they not this person, were they not Chris with just an easy yes or no way to just escape out the back door and an easy yes or no. When we talk about how easy this is, what we really mean by this is that somebody just saying yes or no for minimizing the amount of time for us to be able to observe whether or not there's some deception or stress indicators, there's some vocal indicators or linguistic indicators of some deception. That's all I've got here. Scott. I'm glad I'm coming after you on this one, Chase, because I want to take everything you said just in it's gonna save me a lot of time and add these things to it. To make my point that this guy is acting. This question I think he was ready for. I think he thought about it and he looked at it from every angle and it would come in and he answered it because his eye movement is comparatively low. We don't see it darting around everywhere. We see it a little bit, but not a whole lot. So he's not processing anything negative or much negative. Blink rates normal for his baseline and his voice and his cadence and his volume, everything is just seems fairly normal. He's not loping, but everything else is fairly normal in there. He pops on the words hit piece and on anything as he's doing those, but he's emphasizing those. What was that? Sorry. Housekeeper. That's okay, mate. That's okay. We've got the sign out. Anyway, so he's emphasizing those to make those hit hard. So you've saved me a lot of time there, Chase. That's all for me. To your knowledge, no one in the chamber conveyed negative information about any of the complainants to the press. Is that right? I've never read anything that was a hit piece on one of the accusers. I've never seen it offered up by anyone who says they're a friend of Andrew on television. And I was never part of anything like that. And I never heard that anybody was gonna do anything like that. I'm trying to understand how releasing Ms. Boylan's personnel file to the press would not fit into the category. I don't know that that happened and I had nothing to do with it and I would never be in favor of it. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll be quick on this one. I've read that the two reasons he was let go had nothing to do with this. They had to do with finding dirt on one lady who had accused his brother and the other had to do with using Ronan, another Pulitzer Prize winning reporter to try to get dirt and try to get information. Nothing to do with. So I see his body language is pretty pronounced and he's trying to say the right thing, but he says I knew nothing about it and I don't know that it happened and I didn't have anything to do with it. Well, those are contradictory statements. If you just said, hey, I didn't even know it happened, that would be that. So it makes him guilty whether there is or not. I'll go from there and say, Scott, what do you got? All right, everything, again, I think it's what he's ready for because everything looks fairly normal. He's confident with this answer. However, I don't think he's being completely honest here. His eye movement is comparatively normal. His blink rate's normal. His voice tone and volume a little bit fast, a little bit strong, but he's got emphasis on those specific words that happen under stress when he's hitting those. His answer is short to the point and that one qualifier. And I think he was ready for it the whole time. So I'm going to give him a one to 10. I'm hitting a 10 on that for being deceptive. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I agree. He adapts with his jacket beforehand. We haven't seen him do that. So something's up around here. I've got here that he is constructing the answers rather than giving the answers, which again, strikes me that he's either prepared this or certainly he is leaning back on his rhetorical skill because he goes straight for the rule of three, you know. I never, I didn't, you know, three very clear ideas that head everybody off. The question is not even a question. She then comes in with, well, I'm just trying to understand. Well, if I were answering this, I would just say, I understand. I don't need to even answer the question that she's put forward because it's not even a question, but yet he does. So he clearly sees himself in a position at the moment that he has to offer something. He has to deliver something. And so he's constructed it in order to deliver it. But he shouldn't be saying anything. I think at this point, Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, this is a great example of him stepping in to correct the record or add details when they aren't present in a statement. Not a question, like you said. I think it's funny that Greg, you hit on it. He starts talking about it and then redirects to saying he didn't know what happened, which I think is like chef's kiss, stunning that that would even happen. I think he's honest about not having a hand in the physical digital release because if he'd just asked his assistant or asked someone else to just send out the email, then he would be honest in that answer there. And if he would never be in favor of it, that could also be honest because the term would, and we're getting into clintonisms here, it helps him by using a hypothetical word because the word would is automatically suggest a hypothetical scenario. And this is would instead of a present tense of his current feelings or a past tense about how he felt at that time. And I think it's possible based on this very, Mark, you said it, like this constructed, calculated denial here that isn't really a denial anyway, that he could have been involved with the decision to do so, but not the actual release. He could have had 100% of the decision but not the physical release, which is exactly what we hear in this video. That's all I got. I'm trying to understand how releasing Miss Boiland's personnel file to the press would not fit into the category. I don't know that that happened and I had nothing to do with it and I would never be in favor of it. All right. What do you think, sir? What do you think the president was gonna say? Something positive about her? No. Why would he say something positive? How is this not a conveying, a talk for conveying information about someone who potentially has something negative to say about the accuser? Because it was just informational that I had heard this. I never followed up on it. Nobody else ever followed up on it. But most of it very well. I know she did not. Because I had subsequent conversations. We've forwarded it to her so that she didn't follow up on it. Were you sending it, giving her this information so that she wouldn't follow up on it? Presumably there's a chance. You're sending it to her so she knows. I was relaying information that I had gotten in real time from a journalist. I was not doing it with any expectation of action. And I know for a fact there was no action. In fact, I later learned that there had been another iteration of this, that there might be a recording or something like that of this. And I told them to stay away from it and just focus on the process. And I've always been consistent on that. And I would never be any other way. And I would never be part of any other way. Greg, what do you got? So if you're captured or you're arrested and you're talking to a police officer, you're gonna be on your best behavior. And you're gonna try to pay as much attention to that person and make them as happy as you can. He does the thing I've called in the past, robo-copping. He turns and looks at the guy with his head, and then turns his body. It's a weirdest looking thing coming from him, considering how polished he is. His grief does show for a split second, and you can see he's navigating language and he breaks his baseline dramatically. His chin drops, he leans in, his mouth opens, he's starting to feel stressed. You can see it. It doesn't mean that he's lying. Don't know that part. We'll walk through that in a second. But he goes through a whole lot of body movements that he hasn't done in the past. He's kind of using his entire body. And there's apprehension in every turn as you watch him. And then he eye blocks when he says I've been consistent. And my favorite move of the entire thing is he wipes the table clean when he's saying it. He's not used that gesture yet. We wanna understand why he's using that. So all of this together makes me start to think, okay, he's on the griddle. He's in trouble. Don't know why. Can't say he's lying, but I certainly know he's feeling pressure. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think he starts to get a bit broken here because there is a big change. First of all, the interviewer breaks his rhetoric. He starts saying, I didn't follow up on it. He says it again, something else. And then he's going for a third. And at that point, the interviewer interrupts in there. And then his breathing rate goes up. So he's now off his pattern. He's not so locked down. He says, in fact, and then his gestures really, really open up. It gets very animated. He leans forward. He's now more helpful and more animated. And now he delivers that he knows of a potential of some evidence out there. So I think the break in his rhetoric here, the interruption puts him on the back foot. He has to lean forward. He has to be even more helpful. Breathing rate goes up. There's more stress. He's starting to get animated. He's now starting to tell us more of the truth of what's going on here, I would say. Chase, what do you think? I think you guys hit it. That's exactly what we're seeing here. And there's almost a reversal here in this, from a linguistic perspective, of what he just denied in the previous video of having anything to do with any of this stuff. And I think it's interesting that the video opens with him very quickly and sharply saying, why would it contain anything positive? And I think that says a whole lot there, too. So especially to this table wipe gesture, I think this is potentially a regulator or an assertion of dominance or territory there. Like you might see in one of those old mafia movies where the guy straightens out the tablecloth to reassert that control over his environment. I think that's what we're seeing here. And it's interesting because we don't see that very often. We don't even see it in any of his baseline videos from CNN. I think that's very interesting. God, what do you think? All right, I'm going to go against you guys on this hand thing that's down. Going back to, I'm bringing him up for the third time and I'll say his name correctly this time. Instead of Vrij, I'll say Vray. Alder Vray. He talks about how when you're being honest, you're using your, most people are being truthful. They'll use their hands as illustrators and all that. Now, when your hand is up like this and you're making a declarative statement, most likely that's deceptive. Not every time there are no absolutes, but when it's down, that's when you're making, that's when you're most likely being honest or being truthful about that. And I think what's happened here is we're seeing a masterful blend of deception and truth at one right after the other. He blends them together as he goes from the deception part of that he's going through because he's showing us that head's pushing forward, that quick retreat, at least he contempt on his face at that point. And then he's got that fake thing with his head sideways to give, again, perception management to show that he's listening. Yeah, is that happening? And then he lifts his lips and that's sort of like, that's his past buying behavior, his adapter at that point. And then when he goes into, with his hand down, talking about that, he's talking about the process. Now, if you remember the people who talked about the process are people who are very successful or who teach success or they'll teach stoicism. You'll read that in stoicism books, success books, those types of things. And they'll talk about the process. Coaches talk about the process. And when they do, he's always followed the process. And I'm sure he's read those books and is familiar with those thoughts or those thought processes and the way people become successful is by following a process. That's why he looks so honest at the end there. I think that's what he's doing. I don't think he's, I think that's what that is. His hand is down because he's talking about the process, which he does always follow. Cause that's what he's talking about at that point. He's back to himself. He's retreated from all that other stuff and brought it back to him. And he's telling about how he follows the process. And that's how, what he always does, which I'm sure is true at that point. I'm sure he always follows the process at that point. What do you think, sir? What do you think the people's gonna say? Something positive about her? No. Why would he say something positive? Just not conveying the thought, conveying information about someone who potentially has something negative to say about the accuser. Because it was just informational that I had heard this. I never followed up on it. Nobody else ever followed up on it. But Melissa may very well. I know she did not. Because I had subsequent conversations. We've ordered it to her so that she didn't follow up on it. Were you sending it, giving her this information so that she wouldn't follow up on it? Presumably there's a chance. You're sending it to her so she knows. I was relaying information that I had gotten in real time from a journalist. I was not doing it with any expectation of action. And I know for a fact, there was no action. In fact, I later learned that there had been another iteration of this, that there might be a recording or something like that of this. And I told them to stay away from it and just focus on the process. And I've always been consistent on that. And I would never be any other way. And I would never be part of any other way. Were you part of any discussion in which whether staff members from the executive chamber should continue to come to the executive mansion? No. Anyone, either generally or specifically? Not that I can recall. Were you part of any conversation in which the woman you understand to be Caitlin was discussed and there was discussion that she should no longer come to the executive mansion? No, not specifically. All right, Chase, what do you got? So let's do straight out of the gate. Well, I'm just gonna use the behavioral table of elements. This is only taking me about 20 seconds here. It starts off with a transderivational search or this multiple location of eye movement here. And I'm sure Greg's gonna help you understand what that means. There's an increase in breathing rate. Secondarily, it's an increase into his chest and not his abdomen, which indicates discomfort and stress. There's a qualified answer, so he's qualifying. Then there's TDS or transderivational search, all this wacky eye movement following his answer. And there's a deviation from his baseline. This is a lack of confidence here. And I think he's making up for the lack of confidence by doing this big lean back in the chair to help him get over that. As a tation, before he answers, there's a bodily freeze during part of this. And the behavioral table of elements score for this one clip is a 20, which indicates about a 95% chance of deception. On the Scott Rouse deception scale, it would be a 9.5. Scott Rouse? All right, well, I think you just nailed it all. So I agree with you completely. He answers no, not specifically, but there's that pause there. And so he's thinking, he's structuring, he's getting ready. Even though he's got his answer ready, he's still trying to decide if that's the answer he wants to give. So that's why we're seeing some really odd behavior in here. It may not look like that if you're not into this stuff very deeply. A lot of panelists will go, yeah, I've seen all that. And some people go, what are you talking about? But that's, you watch more of these, you'll get more into it. And he has animated as we do about these. So I agree with you 100%. You pretty much sat on everything I was gonna say. Greg, what do you got? I guess I'll start off with questioning. Did, will, are, can, have? All those questions give you a yes or no answer. Not one of those questions forces me to feel stressed because I'm answering. No is easy. He's adapting, rocking in the chair, but he's also hours into a call. So I'm cautious with that one. This is a polished guy. And he's actually much more polished than most of the people that we look at because he is in front of a camera. He's conscious all the time and that kind of thing. But he's navigating his message very carefully here. And I think Chase, when you're talking about transderivational and when he's going to accessing auditory, imagining what might come next, remembering what he saw, analyzing what to say, maybe some feelings. I think it's because he's keenly aware there's a trap and he's cautious not to say the wrong word as any of us would be. Any of us who've been interrogated know that words are like glue. The minute you put it out there, now you gotta live with it and you gotta stick to it. But there's a point where he's trying to figure out exactly what she says because he squints his eyes in discerning the intent of the question. And then when he realizes he's gonna get away with a no, puts his chin up. Again, back to defiance or pride or whatever you wanna call it in this case, probably defiance, puts that chin up, then his blink rate goes up pretty quickly as he gets to get away with saying not specifically. Well, what the hell does not specifically mean? Answer the question is what I would say. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, he's gonna be used to some long days under stress and pressure. Now all the same, this isn't his usual day under stress and pressure, but I still do want to think about the bigger body mass here. What's the bigger situation with the body? Notice not him, but the space around him now. This is not just a bit of a retreat. It's a full lean back slump in the chair. Huge amounts of space around him now. So a big, big difference. Look, quick, you know, my universal theory or model on body language, all body language is a display of power or a response to a display of power. Now power can mean many things and power comes from many things, but is this a response to the power that a long day has on you? It could be that. Is there a response to the power of these questions that keep coming at him? It could be that as well. And what is his response to that display of power? And is it a display of power in itself? Well, it could be him sitting back going, yeah, I'm tired of this and I'm not gonna keep up the energy to it. I'm now gonna show you that I have power by now doing very, very little in my non-verbal communication. Look, you know, it's probably all and many of these things, but hopefully that simple model, all body language, by the way, the moment anybody says all, they've already made a mistake. So I'm gonna continue. All body language is a display of power or a response to a display of power. Just think about how you can analyze that image that we saw there just based on that. And that's all I got on that one. Were you part of any discussion in which whether staff members from the executive chamber should continue to come to the executive mansion? No. Anyone, either generally or specifically? Not that I can recall. Were you part of any conversation in which the woman you understand to be Caitlin was discussed and there was discussion that she should no longer come to the executive mansion? No, not specifically. Were you part of any conversation in which the woman you understand to be Caitlin was discussed and there was discussion that she should no longer come to the executive mansion? No, not specifically. Did you recall that there was... Hold on a second, sorry. No, please. I vaguely remember there being some discussion about what happens now. She came out with the complaint, but I think she was still working. Bless you. Bless you. If you don't do it every time, it doesn't count. You don't really mean it. She was still working. And I do remember that, but that was not relevant to me. I think that was with Stephanie and Melissa. Greg, what do you got? So in the beginning, he's navigating the intent. If you watch him, he's paying really close attention to what the person's saying, much like I said, if you're arrested or you're captured, you're going to pay really close attention to capture. As she starts to write, you can hear her scratching on a pad or something. Watch his blink rate go through the roof because that must have been something important. Then he does this whole painful recall. Hold on a second, because he realizes something he said in the last clip is going to get him in trouble. And so he corrects that and he scrambles to do it. Holds his hands up for regulators at sorry to stop her. His chin drops to protect his throat. And that's usually a threat response to Mark's point about demonstrations of power or a response to power. And then there's exasperation as he blows out. And then he qualifies his answer with vaguely. Well, just answer the question. His forehead in this one is smooth, all out of character prim. Something is up here. It makes me want to dig in and say, hey, hold on one minute, do a Colombo. Hey, hold on a minute. Where'd all those wrinkles in your forehead go? Because it's gone. There's nothing there. And then he does a good diversion at God bless you. That's his chance to take a break from whatever the hot seat is and then go back to it. But he does. Now it's not a minor adapter. It's not a minor thing we saw in the last clip. It's full body adaption. His body is trying to release nervous energy as he goes through it. Scott, what do you got? I agree with you a hundred percent. And at the top there, his eyes are fixed. He's got that brow of concern going on there. His eyes are darting around. He's on high alert again because he knows there's trouble coming up. Then we hear that loud exhale and that's where he's realizing the threat I think at that point. And then, and of course it's an adapter as well, getting rid of that stress. But when he said that interruption where he says, bless you, real loud. That, along with what you were talking about, Greg, that's also perception management because he's making everything look okay. So it's no big deal. It's guessing, hey, bless you. And then again, you know, hey, if you don't say it twice, it doesn't mean, come on, man. You were talking about some serious stuff or you don't want to be goofing around during that. So he overplays it when he's trying to manage the perception of the way things are going for him, the way he's trying to make everything look fine and it gets worse in the next video or the next couple of videos. And then you'll see that a lot of times when people want, they need that extra time. Like you're saying, Greg, to think. He needs a little bit of time to think about what's going on in restructure at that point. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. It gives him thinking time. And I think to something that Chase first alerted me to, it's that it's overly social. It's more overly polite and he gets the opportunity to be nice twice and also put forward. Look, if you're not nice twice, you weren't nice in the first place. So look how nice I'm being right now. It's a great opportunity to buy some time and hopefully buy some social reciprocity at the same time, some kindness from them, I think. I think they're close to breaking him at this point because he's out of energy, I think. He's out of strategy now because he takes a long time over that first one. But I think he could have hung on longer and he'd have got a second question. I think you're right in that maybe, Greg, he has gone, oh, I got to readjust an answer that I gave earlier. I think that is a strong possibility. I think there's also the possibility that he needs to break the silence. It's getting too overwhelming for him because he didn't have to say anything there. But you may be right there, Greg. Maybe it's tactical in that he needs to correct something. But yeah, the main thing for me is just overly polite, overly social. And so it's a new tactic from him, which probably means he's out of good tactics. He's making it up as he goes along now. Chase, what are your thoughts? It's the same as the previous video here. We're seeing a very similar pattern. This freeze behavior, I think, is freezing during this initial part of the video here. It's processing and calculating his position in stillness so he can maximize all his resources. Everything's gonna be still for just a second. And he knows there could potentially be a recording of this, I think. This is my opinion. This is not some peer-reviewed journal that I'm citing here. But he launches into this new, vague, ambiguous, and totally fact-free explanation. And he's trying to, I think, appeal to these attorneys and develop some kind of rapport with this sneeze interruption. Mark, like you were alluding to that it helps him. I think this sneeze interruption was a very welcome relief for him to take a quick breather during a very difficult question. And then he's back to business. So this helps to pump him up, and we get to see that he gets recharged by these social interactions and being socially touched. So as an interrogator or an interviewer, I see something like this or even a hint of this, right at the beginning. I know that I can do this as the interviewer and help pump him up and make him more confident, make him more likely to answer it, open up later on by using these social rewards. I think it's great that he says, if you don't do it every time, it doesn't count because he's talking about his own baseline. And this entire video is a complete deviation from his total baseline. And if you don't do it every time, it's not part of your baseline. So that's all I got with that. Were you part of any conversation in which the woman you understand to be Caitlyn was discussed and there was discussion that she should no longer come to the executive mansion? No, not specifically. Do you recall that there was- Hold on a second, sorry. No, please. I vaguely remember there being some discussion about what happens now. She came out with the complaint, but I think she was still working. Bless you. Bless you. If you don't do it every time, it doesn't count. You don't really mean it. She was still working. And I do remember that, but that was not relevant to me. I think that was with Stephanie and Melissa. Mark, I'll tell you, by this point in the position that was broke me, just watch. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's losting better than you are. And then on March 15th, she wrote to you, did you get any more intel? And you wrote, story not ready for tomorrow. She wrote, can you talk? What was that about? They didn't know when the Ronan piece was coming out. So I just asked people, do you hear anything about when the Ronan's piece? We do this with him all the time. It's a really good device that he has that his people let you know that something's coming, but they don't tell you when. So there's this constant speculation game. It's really effective in driving interest for his articles. Who did you get the information from that the piece wasn't ready for? I called a fellow journalist who works with Ronan a lot. And I didn't want to contact Ronan directly. I know him, he's been good to me, he's been on my show. But I didn't want to push up on him like that. It's not right. So, and I was told nothing's coming right away. All right, Chase, what do you got? I think this is brilliant. I'm just gonna do two quick things here. And I'll let you guys do the non-verbals because there's plenty in here. I'm not even gonna touch the non-verbals. We have Chris here telling us that the speculation game is something that he views as a really good device and really effective device. And it seems like he admires this with a genuine smile and he has some admiration about making people speculate, kind of like what we've been seeing throughout this entire five hour interview in its entirety. And if you watch the whole thing, I think you'll be shocked at how accurate Chris is about using speculation as a device and it being effective for him. Because he's admiring this in someone else and I think he's not doing this consciously. I think he accidentally uses this and complements this device and we're seeing him use it live as he's complimenting it. And I think that was a great thing. I laughed out loud this morning. I was watching the video, smiling, just watching it now with you guys, really great. Scott, what do you got? All right, again, I think we're seeing him blending. It's a masterful blend of the truth and deception as it goes through this. At the top we're seeing that mouth adapter. Again, that's a passifying behavior, something to help get rid of some of that built up stress and nervousness. And then he deflects and redirects and starts going out a whole other road. He's got his shoulders pulled in, he's turdling and all those are deceptive cues when they're grouped together. And then it becomes very animated, really animated. He uses facial expressions which he hadn't been using very much up to this point because like Mark was talking about earlier, he's just kind of laid back up to this point. So then he gets back up and he's not flailing but he's sure he's using a lot of cues, we'll say at that point. But he's using those to sell his redirect on down the road to something completely different. And then, again, we're seeing lots of shoulder shrugs and that last one really has all those going on at once. That reminds me, who's the girl that killed a little child and left him in the hotel room? What was her name? Trace it a little. Yep, Trace it a little. Yeah, or it looks like she's having a fit. Or it looks like something's wrong with her. That's what that reminded me of. And most of the time you see those, it's just you're insecure about your answer, you're not sure about it when you see all those going on. But this is stress because it's chaff and redirect and he knows he's doing it. It's so apparent to him, I think it makes him nervous and that's why he's doing that. Greg, what do you got? All I saw when he responded was a 12-year-old girl and how they pushed their head forward and bunched their shoulders up. That's exactly what I saw. It made me laugh out loud. I thought it was something from like a 1950s sock hop movie or something like that when I saw it. And I think the reason is because if you see in the beginning he starts off with his teeth exposed and then a nervous smile. Then he does that little tuck his chin, drop his chin down and bring his head up so he's protecting himself. And he does kind of a full body regulator to get control nodding and smiling and selling the whole way until she allows him to redirect and wrap himself in his own glory. And that's what he just did. He just said, remember who I am? I've got friends, powerful friends. And all I did was talk to my powerful friend. By the way, this is what he got axed for, talking to other media people about things that were coming and that's why they ended up releasing him ultimately. But all of this looks like a sales pitch to me. You're right, he chaffs and redirects but when he chaffs and redirects he's on something he knows really well so he doesn't have to think. And that's the reason he's able to just spout this information out and go from there. I'll leave it at that anytime I see somebody chaff and redirect and then get happy and look giddy in the beginning I would be concerned right here. This is so far off everything we've seen in baseline for him that this made me wonder right off. So I went and started looking and I found that the two reasons he was let go from CNN had to do with using sources and with outing someone who had accused his brother sending some data file. So there you go. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think he does. Yeah, he absolutely redirects and though he's under extreme stress I think he gains some buoyancy from that. I think he likes letting people in on like here's how it works in my trade. Here's how the industry works. It's a strong moment of control for him over a narrative that we as the interviewers couldn't have any jurisdiction over. We haven't investigated that. We don't have any. We haven't interviewed anybody about that. It's a time for him to go. Let me just tell you how this, let me let you into a secret. Tell you how this all works. And I think that's why we see a little more buoyancy there that smile on his face that a certain kind of glee and we don't have this person who had no idea and no strategy and was a bit lost at this point. He's now got something you can do which is help you be an insider to that. So very strong change happening there. To Chase's earlier point, that is something that I might use to go, oh, if I can get him talking, get him to give me some insight on how the industry works. He's gonna get animated. He's gonna talk. He's gonna deliver a bunch of stuff. And from there, I might be able to say, oh, so tell me about just that proposed nothing. Tell me about this. And he might continue that stream of consciousness on what I do want to know about because I don't care about the insider stuff in his industry. That's absolutely redirection. That's all I got on that one. And then on March 15th, she wrote to you, did you get any more intel? And you wrote, story not ready for tomorrow. She wrote, can you talk? What was that about? They didn't know when the Ronan piece was coming out. So I just asked people, do you hear anything about when the Ronan's piece? We do this with him all the time. It's a really good device that he has, that his people let you know that something's coming, but they don't tell you when. So that there's this constant speculation game. It's really effective in driving interest for his articles. Who did you get the information from that the piece wasn't ready for? I called a fellow journalist who works with Ronan a lot. And I didn't want to contact Ronan directly. I know him, he's been good to me, he's been on my show. But I didn't want to push up on him like that. It's not right. So I was told nothing's coming right away. Let's turn to tab 30. I'm sorry, what's your tab? 30, three zero. What is this? I don't know. I mean, it's me reaching out to them about something that I had seen when someone had sent me and I was asking what I'm asking. This is what you're sending is someone sent to you. Is that right? Oh, that may be true. I don't know. I don't remember. Let me look at the second page. The text says. Yes, yes. I think that's what it was about. But I didn't know if these were the real documents or not. People put out fake things all the time that looked so legit. And I always want to make sure about that stuff. You got to get things right. Why did you want to make sure it was real? I wanted to make sure it wasn't fake because it was being circulated. And what were you going to do if it was fake? Tell them not to pay attention. Well, I wasn't going to tell them to do anything. I was asking them, do you know about this because I had seen this from several different people involved in the ambit. And I didn't even know if it was real. And what did they tell you? The senior staff of the executive chamber and the consultants, would they tell you? I don't remember, but I definitely wound up learning that it was true. Okay. And I didn't know until that point. I mean, yes, I had heard that something happened to her in college and that she was assaulted. And I mean, I knew that, but I didn't know the depth and what it meant to her and where it had come from and what she had done already to deal with it in ways that people don't want to do. So to me, I was very affected by the realities of Charlotte Bennett's situation. She's unlike anybody else involved in this situation in my estimation. And I got the sense that I just, I wasn't sure that that was shared. That this wasn't just somebody saying something happened or referring to something. That there was depth to this and it needed to be appreciated and respected. You know, was that shared? Yeah. By some. All right, I'll go first on this one. And I've been talking about perception management and this is a classic. Now, this is what I'm gonna use in training because when he does that nose sniff and all that business, and he goes, I don't know. It's like, hey man, everything's cool. I don't know what that is. Come on, man. So that's him totally trying to make it look like everything's fine. No, everything's fine. Just fine. No, it's not fine. You're so busted at this point. All right, Chase, what do you got? So let's just talk about his behavior really quick before he even starts talking. I've never seen this much acting in a short amount of time. When they say term of tab 30, there is fear. There's a confirmation of number just so he can continue to speak. So he confirms 30, that's an adapter or maybe a regulator. His chin goes down. His mouth is wide open so he can intake as much oxygen as possible. So when our adrenaline goes up, it produces a pretty much equal demand for oxygen. So our mouth wants to open. He's feigning fake concern and deep interest in the document. He's flipping the tab back and forth using this to kind of buy time and to calculate a response. There's lip compression, which typically means withheld information or withheld opinions. Then there's this territorial sniff, which I have no doubt Mark is about to get into in just a second and I'm gonna let him do that. When he says, I don't know, this is the same default fear response that a small child would do when they know exactly what it is and they don't have any response prepared. You ask the little kid, what happened over here? I don't know. That's a default. And I'm actually surprised at how many child-like behaviors that all of us are seeing. I thought it was just me this morning kind of going through a couple of these videos. And he says, he doesn't know. The strategy is no longer denial, but just admission with a how much ambiguity can I inject into my answer in one single sentence? And I think that's what it's about. I don't know, what else to cover here? He tries to redirect the whole thing with this narrative by lying about his intentions and his only goal ever is to protect this woman accusing his brother of sexual assault. He wants to start protecting her and do what's best for her. And then now what I think is just the final point here, what is really strange here is he redirects to not knowing the depth of the sexual assault. And his only goal now is to understand this person's pain. And there's no depth to sexual assault, period. It's all horrific 100% of it. And I'd like to know his definition of shallow versus deep sexual assault and how he defines those two things. And I think he finishes up by just asking himself a question. Was it shared? Yeah, by some. And I think that's horrifying and deceptive. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, so I may surprise you in a moment about the sniff chase. Let me see if I can. But before I go there, listen, if I'd been interviewed for five hours around something I have nothing to do with, if somebody said, so shall we all turn to page 30? I would say, no, if you want me to look at page 30, bring page 30 to me. That's what I'd be saying. He is compliant and helpful at this point. And I think that says something for somebody who's been there for five hours and had nothing to do with this. He's overly compliant and helpful, I would say. Now, of course, look, there's times when people who are not guilty will be compliant and helpful because they're like anything to get me out of this. I mean, there are situations where people will admit stuff that they've never been anything to do with just to be compliant and just to help people out and get out of it. But for him, he's a high status person. He is overly compliant and helpful at this point. We see the neck tension there as well. So, something is up. We haven't seen that with him before. I agree, Chase, that the sniff is interesting. But for me, it's a one nostril sniff. Not a two nostril, which takes a lot more air or a blowout like that. Because it's a one nostril sniff, I'm gonna say it's histamines are kicking in, yeah. Which suggests to me his immune system is now starting to react to this. Quarters old levels are up. Histamines are starting to be produced. It's rather like this particular moment, he's having an allergic reaction to it. I'm gonna go in that direction on this. It's almost like, and this moment is a real attack on his whole system there. Oh, I love the idea of the fake documents because it's like him saying, look, I do my due diligence. I hope you do your due diligence on that. And so, he's really stuck here. I think he's got himself stuck. He's in a bind and he needs to grease himself out of this bind. And the way he's gonna grease this one out is the idea of the story weaving the story of empathy, emotion, respect, sharing appreciation. So some strong virtuous signals, I would say, around all of this to grease his way out of this. And at the same time, what is really special about this, he says ways that people don't want to do so he puts stress by putting that ur afterwards. He puts a stress on, don't want to do. He's setting up the antisocial, the unsocial, the socially abnormal status of what we don't want to do. At the same time, a signaling that the respect and the sharing and the appreciation, he does the exact opposite as well to go, look, this is socially abnormal at the same time. So I think he gives himself away during this. That's all I got on that one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so he starts off, let's just start here. Let's say we say baseline matters, but let's just blow his baseline to hell. Number one, he's tilting his head. Number two, he doesn't inhale. For whatever reason, let's assume whatever, he didn't inhale. That forehead is smooth as glass. They still got a few residuals, but it's not all held up like he usually does. He has a lip retraction in the beginning. He is looking at, it just pay attention to his throat protection, his chin down, protecting his throat, which is a natural fear response. He uses too many words. He uses seven to 10 word sentences usually. Here he's rambling along saying whatever the hell it is that comes out of his mind. And he does a little top at, I always want to make sure. Remember, we said did, will, can, or have make you get easy answers. This is one of the most unpredictable ways to challenge somebody about something, to have them look at their own writing and to say, what does that mean? There's no way he could really prepare for that. That's why he's so stressed on this one. When he gets back to a point where he thinks he has it, where he's already had this prepared question, prepared answer, you see his baseline come back. When he says, I didn't even know. And then I'm with you, Chase. He does this avoidance thing at the very end by saying, yes, somebody did it. Come on. This is what you're in trouble for. I think this one is showing that he had put himself in a bind. And if you really want to make sure, that's what you do for a living. If I thought that something was not true before I would send it to somebody they were accusing, I would check it, not send it and say, woohoo, look what I found. That's more what it looks like here. And it looks like he's on a griddle because of it, and he's paying for it. That's what I got. Let's turn to tab 30. I'm sorry, what's tab? 30? 30, 3-0. What is this? I don't know. I mean, it's me reaching out to them about something that I had seen or someone had sent me, and I was asking what I'm asking. This is what you're sending, is someone sent to you? Is that right? Oh, that may be true. I don't know. I don't remember. Let me look at the second page. The text says. Yes, yes. I think that's what it was about. But I didn't know if these were the real documents or not. People put out fake things all the time that looked so legit. And I wanted to make sure. I always want to make sure about that stuff. You got to just get things right. Why did you want to make sure it was real? I wanted to make sure it wasn't fake because it was being circulated. And what were you going to do if it was fake? Tell them not to pay attention. Well, I wasn't going to tell them to do anything. I was asking them, do you know about this? Because I had seen this from several different people involved in the ambit. And I didn't even know if it was real. And what did they tell you? The senior staff of the executive chamber and the consultants, would they tell you? I don't remember. But I definitely wound up learning that it was true. OK. And I didn't know until that point. I mean, yes, I had heard that something happened to her in college and that she was assaulted. I mean, I knew that. But I didn't know the depth and what it meant to her and where it had come from and what she had done already to deal with it in ways that people don't want to do. So to me, I was very affected by the realities of Charlotte Bennett's situation. She was unlike anybody else involved in this situation, in my estimation. And I got the sense that I wasn't sure that that was shared, that this wasn't just somebody saying something happened or referring to something. There was depth to this. And it needed to be appreciated and respected. And was that shared? Yeah, by some. Excellent. I don't have any more questions about that between Ms. Clark. I was asking, is it fake? Like, I couldn't believe that it existed. This has never been told to me before. You know what I'm saying, June? This had never been shared with me about how. Any questions, have you seen this? Is it fake? Presumably, the natural reading of this is, check this out. No. The natural, that may be yours. Let's say A reading of it. No disrespect. My actual reading of it was shock. Shock that the situation, the context, the history. Look, these are not good answers for my brother that I'm giving you right now. I understand that. But it happens to be the truth, OK? I didn't know this so much so that I said, is it fake? Because I thought maybe this isn't true, that this is just being brought up the way a lot of other students' stuff does. And that's what it was about. All right, Chase, what do you got? What are you saying? This has never been told to me before. He just spent the last video talking about how it had been told to him and that he thought it was fake earlier than this at a previous time. I think, and this is the first instance of his facial touching here. And this is why context and baseline are so important. And people say facial touching means this. A, it doesn't mean that. And B, it depends on whether or not that person touches their face all the time. It depends on the context and the human being. So we are seeing a deviation with this. And then he's biting his own lip here with some lip retraction. So once the lips pass the barrier of the teeth, we go from concealment to a need for reassurance. Most of the time, this often suggests that. And when he says, I realize this isn't good for my brother, I think the subtext here is, this probably makes me look amazing. This whole thing is about him and how much he cared. He wouldn't even concern with his brother. He just wanted this person to be understood by the world. And that was the whole reason that he was doing all of this stuff because he's such a wonderful human being. I think it all comes together at the end with another thing that Mark loves talking about is this sour hooker right at the end where I think he's, this indicates his distaste for the answer that he gave. I don't think it's for the information. I think it's for his own answer. I think he's dissatisfied with the way that he answered that question. And this is, I think even to him, it's obvious. It's obvious to probably a fifth grade child that this is fake and this is not a real thing. And a lot of this is just a narrative crafted to answer a question in a way that's not a truth, not a lie, like Scott is continuing to say, there's this perfect tapestry of truth and fiction being woven together where you can't, you're far enough away, you can't really see the difference is what the hope is, I think. Scott, what do you think? This reminds me, excuse me, this reminds me of, I don't know if you guys are ever on a farm where there's little pigs, but trying to catch a little piglet, they get him in the corner finally of the fence over there. When he do, he stops and he starts running back and forth and run around, spin around, do all kinds of things. I think we're seeing him in panic mode here and he's swinging, man. He's coming out swinging, trying not to get nailed on this because they're just about to get him in that corner where he can't get away and they'll get down the knees and grab him and hug him real big so he can't escape. That's what we're seeing to make it extremely short, but I agree with the 100% Chase and he's on the ropes at this point, he's had it. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think there's just so much happening there. I think we have some wide eyes of fear now and again. I think we, I see some disdain. I think the finger comes across after he's done the disdain to hide that that happened as well. So I think he can tell that he's a little bit out of control right now. There's a lot happening in him and he doesn't know what to do to counter-measure all of the thoughts and the ideas and the movements that are going on here. We get some lip curls as well. I think there's anger going on as well. Yeah, totally out of control at this point. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, I'm gonna keep this pretty short. His body angle is not the normal body angle he's used in answering questions in the past. I think that's deflection. He's trying to get away from whatever's going on. He's illustrating more with the back of his hand now, which is a deviation from what he's been doing. And then as you said, he touches his face. Well, that might not mean anything but we've seen thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of this guy not touching his face. So something's up. I think the lip bite in this case is an adapter. He's just releasing nervous energy. He doesn't know where to go with it. And I think that the disdain look there is about the whole situation, Chase. I'm not sure it's about his answer. I have a theory after watching six hours of this and I think it's about the whole situation. So I'll leave it at that and that's it for me. I don't have any more questions about that, but do Ms. Clark. Why are you hoarding this? I was hoarding it. I was asking, is it fake? Like I couldn't believe that it existed. Like this has never been told to me before. You know what I'm saying, June, this had never been shared with me about how- My question is, have you seen this? Is it fake? Presumably, the natural reading of this is, check this out. No, the natural, that may be yours. That's a A reading of it. No disrespect. My actual reading of it was shock. Shock that the situation, the context, the history, look, these are not good answers from my brother that I'm giving you right now. I understand that, but it happens to be the truth, okay? I didn't know this so much so that I said, is it fake? Because I thought maybe this isn't true, that this is just being brought up the way a lot of other students stuff does. And that's what it was about. Well, let's start around the room and kind of sum up what we've seen today. And we'll start with Mark, we'll go to Chase and then to Greg. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, well, look, there are a couple of moments. I mean, go back, take a look, but there are a couple of moments in there that are just things of beauty to behold. Couple come to mind, but go back, take a look, watch it all again and see which bits you enjoy so much because there's some classics in there. So thanks for bringing that to us. Chase, what do you think? Yeah, we see a lot of classics in here. So even if you bought like a basic book on how to do lie detection or read an article online, there's a lot of that really basic stuff in here that shows us how to read deception. And this is not just when you're being interviewed in court, this is talking to a person at work or talking to anybody in your house. So this video is great for training purposes, but I think that this will probably be politicized and the left and the right lie. So I'll just go ahead and say that. Everybody wants to protect their ass. So we're seeing a lot of that here and we're seeing a lot of deception in the process. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I watched this entire thing probably more times than one because I had to timestamp and do all that. And I started off, what I did say about it is I like him better as a person on the stand than I like all the craziness on the show. But having said that, what I see here is after I've been watched him over and over and over, he's polished, he knows how to deliver message. He's got a lot of subroutines, that smile, that off-putting smile, all those things that he does, that forehead, all those things work wonderfully when you're in charge and you're controlling the narrative. It doesn't work so well when you're no longer controlling a narrative. So we see him sitting here and he starts off with all those tools working, but much like any of us who were to get captured and interrogated, we're suddenly not in the driver's seat. So we have to learn mechanisms that work in that environment. And I don't think he has those. So we do see some basic rudimentary body language, some fairly complex things, some brilliant ones, Mark, I agree with you. And then I'll leave you with what I think, just in general after having watched it, I think this is the Cuomo glueboard situation. I think he probably was telling the truth that he went in, he believed what his brother said. And then this person and this person and this person and he made some, the irony of this whole thing is when he talks about his brother, he calls it elapsed in judgment. And I would just about bet you that's what we're seeing in this guy. And now he's got a career, he's got personal extinction, he's got the Cuomo family name, all of the stuff resting on his shoulders. And it's hard to hide that when you get in this situation. Scott, what do you got? All right, I agree with you. So I think this is a great example of watching someone from the very first, somebody that we quote unquote know and we see how they act every day. Like you were saying, Greg and their normal gig when they're at work and we know their baseline. Then you see him almost slowly going to this panic mode and he gets worse and worse as it goes along, gets worse. And the more he tries to get out of it, the deeper he sinks into it, like quicksand. I think this is great. There are a couple of things that I'm with you, Chaser. A couple of things to use for training in here that I'm gonna pull out and use. And I just think it's great. I think it's great seeing somebody that deserves it get squished in the corner like that and see him swing it. All right, I think this is good. And fellas, I'll see you next time. Yeah. The behavior of panel. Say this, say alert the troops. Godzilla is approaching the shore, but say like alert the troops. Godzilla is approaching the shore. Say it like that. Yeah, okay. Hold on, I'm gonna stop cracking up. Are you ready? Yep. You can do it, man. Come on. Hold on. Alert the troops. Godzilla is approaching the shore. That's perfect. That's perfect.