 Felly, rhaid i amhagol i yllafodd cyd-Methau. Yn ymgyrch colours. Rhaid i amhagol i'r mae'r newid. Rhaid i amhagol i'r gweithio i fynd i gyd. Rwy'n oed i'n cymdeithasio'r panel gan ymlaen. Arddangos i'r cyflawni, roeddwn ni'n ddweud i'r ffeiff? Rhaid i amhaith i'r cyflawni, roeddwn i'n cyflawni. Rhaid i amhagol i'r cyflawni. Rhaid i amhagol i'r cyflawni. Mark Howell ac rwyf am heddiw lle i'w cymweld. Felly wrth gwrs, ac maith yw i mi wrth defnyddio mynd i… A bydda i ddiwedd ddymai. Rwy'n credu am y ddweud yn drwsbeth, mae'n mynd i gynnig o'r gwaith sy'n fwyaf. Mae'n ddweud ff yn ddweud o'r ddweud i'w ddweud o'r ddweud i'w ddweud i'w ddweud. Nad oes'r drwsbeth arno i'w ddweud o'r ddweud i adnog ac'r ddweud o'r ddweud i'w ddweud, Wel, ychydig rydyn ni'n un bwysig ar y penedig a erin, dweud Doing. Rydym ni'n butyn i'r byd, ac yn dweud mynd i ddwyn i'r llwyddynt y curl stacking. Wrth gwrs, rwy'n credu y rhai nodi ar y cair. Rydyn ni'n gallu adreualen ar ein bwysig mewn dweud jefnidio? Rydyn ni'n meddwl i ymddangos? Rydyn ni'n meddwl i gweithio'r bwysig. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r bwysig ar y cair. Felly, baid pall i gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio lle ac, byddwn yn ni wneud? Roeddwn ni'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Felly, violau gofio yma yn y log. Mae ei wneud yn y cyd. Yn ceisio, Michael Wright, y cyddaith y Oldnag, y technologies. Yn ceisio? Joanne Phillips. Joanne Phillips. So we've got Craig Vines, Michael Wright, Joanne Phillips and we've also got Tim MacMahon online. Tim, would you like to just introduce yourself? Yes, hi there. Tim MacMahon, living at Markby Close in Duxford. Sorry, living at Markby Close. Ah, right, Markby Close. Thank you very much, Tim. Thank you very much for attending. So first, before we start, we've introduced some members of the subcommittee and I just want to also take the opportunity to introduce the officers. So, Shirley. Good morning, Shirley Tracy and the solicitor for the council. Shirley, you might need to have your microphone a little bit closer to you. Thank you. And Brachonial, would you like to? Good morning. My name's Brachonial and I'm the licensing technical officer. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Good morning. I'm Rachel Jackson, the principal officer for licensing. Very much. And Erin? Thank you, chair. Democratic Services Officer, here to take a record of today's meeting and make sure it's streamed out to the public. Thank you very much. So, thank you, everybody. Right, so first off, we just need to start with declarations of interest, please. Thank you. Councillor Howell. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman, I am a personal alcohol licence holder. I have been taking advice and that doesn't preclude me from this discussion, but I shouldn't. Thank you very much. No interest in that, yeah. Thank you very much. Okay. So, with that, let's make a start. So, firstly, could we have the licensing technical officer, Brachonial, would you like to introduce your report, please? Thank you, Chairman. So, I will start with the details. On the 31st of January 2022, an application to various premises licence for the Dodge, the Lodge, Duxford, Eccleton Road, Duxford CB224RT was submitted to the licensing authority and advertised and consulted upon. The application is to permit the following. The supply of alcohol for consumption on and off the premises Monday to Thursday, 11am until 11pm, Friday 11am until midnight, Saturday 10am until midnight and Sunday 10am until 11pm. Please note the hours for the outdoor bar to finish at 11pm on all days and the non-standard timings will be nearly as eve until 1am. The provision of recorded music both indoors and outdoors, Monday to Thursday 7am until midnight, Friday and Saturday 7am until 12.30am, Sunday 7am until midnight. Note, the outside area will only have ambient music not to start prior to 9am and to finish by 11pm all days. The non-standard timings again are for New Year's Eve until 1am. We then have the provision of live music for both indoors and outdoors, Monday to Saturday 12am until midnight and Sunday 12pm until 10pm. Please note the timings for the outside area are to be limited to 10pm on all days and Sunday hours where the following Monday is a bank holiday will be as per the Saturday so 12 until 12. The non-standard timings will be New Year's Eve until 1am and late night refreshment we have Friday and Saturday 11pm until midnight and the hours for the outdoor bar to finish at 11pm on all days. Again, we have the non-standard timings for New Year's Eve until 1am. So the application also states to change the following additional conditions so these were added previously. The limitation on the use of the outside bar to extend the hours from 9.30pm until 11pm and it currently states that the last food order is to be at 9pm so we wish to amend this to read last table to be seated at 9pm. The application form is attached as Appendix A which is from page 9 of the report and a location plan attached as Appendix B so this will be page 25 of the report. The current licence and additional conditions are attached as Appendix C from page 27 of the report. The application was advertised in the Cambridge news on the 11th of February 2022 and the site notice displayed on the premises as required. Environmental health have requested that conditions be added to any licence that may be granted. These conditions are detailed in this report and have been accepted by Mr Vines the applicants. There were no responses from any other responsible authorities and representations have been received from Duxford Parish Council and the local residents. The red squares on Appendix C which is page 27 show whether representations were made in relation to the premises. Page 25 is where the map is. The redacted representations are attached as Appendix D so they are labelled D1 to D20 and these are from page 33. There are no policy presumptions within the council's statement of licensing policy against the variation of the licence unless it can be shown that the application would undermine or prejudice the licensing objectives. The subcommittee in determining the application will consider the steps set out in section 18 of the Licensing Act 2003. The subcommittee will decide whether to grant the licence imposing all mandatory conditions in the term set out in the application or take any of the following steps before granting the licence. We have A to modify and grant the licence with such conditions it considers required for the promotion of the licensing objectives which can include granting the licence subject to different conditions in respect of different parts of the premises or different licensable activities. B, grant the licence in different terms by excluding from the scope of the licence any of the licensable activities to which the application relates. C, refuse to specify the person nominated in the licence as the premises supervisor and require a different person to be nominated and accepted by the subcommittee before granting the licence. D, reject the application entirely. This concludes my introduction, Chairman. Thank you very much, Miss O'Neill. That's very helpful. The next step then is, does anybody have any questions of clarification for the officer? OK, I have a couple. Just before the committee, I asked if it was possible for Mr Vines to bring along any records of the monitoring done on the existing sound limiting system. I appreciate it was a very short notice, but I wondered, can you tell me how those are held and how you could have bought them if I had given you more notice? Could you use your microphone, please? So, from the original conditions of the licence, there was supposed to be a sound limiter agreed with the environmental health which never happened due to COVID. So again, could you bring your microphone a bit closer to you, please? The point being, Mr Vines, for everybody here, we need to be able to speak clearly through the microphone because the people online need to be able to hear us. Thank you. So following the last grant of the change of the licence, there was a condition put in there that working with the HO, a sound limiter should be installed. That has never happened, not because of us, we were supposed to do it together as a joint exercise and COVID has stopped that from happening. So all of our checks are perimeter checks, which is literally for noise that can be heard. If we're to look at any complaint that may have come in, that has always come from something that's been done for an extension of the licence. So it's always about timing rather than level of noise within our normal time. Okay, so no sound limiter was installed and your checks have always been from your boundary. Do you have a decibel metre that you're using? That's really the record I was interested to hear. We have one but it's not recorded. We use it to make sure there's a certain level of sound but, again, it's difficult at different points of the village, which I think we've all discussed before you can hear at different elements. I think the condition of the previous licence was that we expected you to take the records at your boundary. We go to the back but there's no record taken. Sorry, these are questions to you really rather than to the officers. But maybe the officers can confirm when the responsible person changed from being, or has it changed, because previously when we granted a licence the applicant was Philippa Infanti. Is she still a part of the business or has she moved on and it's now yourself? When did that change happen? May last year. May 21. Okay, thank you. All right, okay, so are there any technical matters that people want to clarify with the officers at all other than those that I've asked? I'd quite like to also, sorry, just another couple of things. Could the legal officer advise me whether the licensing rules, and I think the answer to this is no, but I just wanted to check, does the licensing permit give us any control over parking at the premises? Chair, conditions can be put on in respect of what's in the control of the responsible person, but in terms of parking, no, that wouldn't be. Okay, that's my thought. So, let's go on then to Mr Vines. Would you like to address us? We'll allow you time to present your case, and we may ask you some questions afterwards, so do go ahead. Thank you. So, just to be clear here, for the objective of our application, it was to tidy up the existing license which was changed in September 20. The request that we have made, I think, has been potentially unclear to everybody because of the way that the application process takes place. But we're not where there is an element which was discussed with Chloe Mapple Durham from the Environmental Health, where there is a request for the provision of recorded music, which I think for most that people are interested in is outdoors. We understood that to be sort of background ambient music, which is actually now clear that it's not the case. So, for us to understand, we're actually asking to allow recorded music or live music until 10 o'clock, which is 30 minutes past the current time which is allowed. And the same, another key element there is the outdoor bar. So, we are allowed to serve alcohol for people to drink outside until 11 p.m. What the condition stops us from doing is using our outdoor bar past 9.30 to serve alcohol, but we can serve from indoors. So, essentially, we serve from the right until 9.30, and from the left from 9.30 until 11, and we're perfectly within our rights to do so. What we're asking for there is to allow us, the condition on music is an extension for half an hour, until 11 o'clock for the alcohol is to allow us to use the same bar maintaining some level of profitability and ease of service for our team. It doesn't change the concept of people outdoors drinking until 11 o'clock. Sorry, just to clarify, these are always complicated descriptions of times and dates and ins and outs. So, currently you're on licence enables you to sell from within the premises until 11 p.m. But your outdoor bar is limited until 9.30. So, what you're asking is that your outdoor bar should be permitted to sell until 11, the same as your indoor bar. Yes. And you're asking, in addition, for the music licences to be allowed. So, and again there, just to be clear on that, sorry. So, I think we're asking and saying until 10 p.m. by understand we can't be limited before 11. So, no one's happy to put a condition on the licence to say 11, which gives us almost, it's our word against anybody else, which is obviously the challenge I have in probably trying to get this to finish. Do you mean that people couldn't say whether you had bought drinks from indoors or outside? Sorry, to do with the music, sorry. It's difficult to impose something on us before 11 where we're actually happy. What we're trying to look for is Friday on Saturday nights is really where I'm interested in until 10 p.m. but that can't, a restriction hasn't been agreed to be put on us for the rest of the days and the week. I have no intention of playing music on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Sunday evening, that's not there. But I understand from the application process it's not possible to request that in writing as such. It seems to me the application form does allow you to do that. Yes. Would you like to explain? What Mr Vines is referring to is a condition that was actually imposed on the licence. So it's number one, no amplified live and or recorded music shall be played in external areas of the site after 9.30 p.m. When actually the live music act you can do so until 11 p.m. so this condition shouldn't have been imposed on the licence. Just but with that, it's within the terms of the other conditions that periodic checks needed to be carried out of the boundary and it was on the understanding at the time that all sound would go through a sound limiter and that we know we've just heard from Mr Vines that that hasn't been implemented. OK. Councillor Howells. Thank you. On a separate matter. Thank you. Just is a question for both Ms O'Neill and Mr Vines as well. It's on page four. I'm looking there at the conditions that you are added which I'm looking at the number nine bullet point one. Yeah. OK. So it says that all windows and external doors to your premises should be closed at all times during the regulated entertainment after 2300 hours, except for et cetera et cetera. Experiences taught me that when we have live music and different things after 11 o'clock it's starting to get a bit warm and that's when you want the windows and doors open except the fact that that has implication and noise. But also with regards to the recent pandemic and we've just shut these doors where we didn't really want to. Do you think that's a fair condition? I appreciate that you have to balance that between the two. So I would just like to know your opinion please. Generally that is actually a standard condition that's environmental health request on all premises licenses. OK. Thank you. Mr Vines, can I have your opinion please? So I think there for the us is something that we're happy with. We have it's probably a room that can take between 50 people that's indoors and it's air conditioned. So as far as the temperature that you refer to, I can't talk for COVID itself, but we're happy with the doors and windows shut. Thank you very much. Thank you. And just one other thing that floats back into my mind. As I recall, the original application, yes, is for seven o'clock in the morning. So previously the live music act or the music act enabled music to be played. But the application is from seven o'clock in the morning until midnight, Monday to Thursday, etc. But I'm just wondering, has the start time for consumption of alcohol come forward as well to seven? Or is it just? No, so that was the opening hours of the premises. And now I understand that we play background music when our breakfast is open. So I think where I've extended the hour for alcohol is on a Saturday morning to bring forward until 10 o'clock to allow people to have a glass of prosecco or champagne for breakfast. OK, right. And just to confirm on Councillor Howell's question, it's my experience that that request of external doors being closed is reasonable. In fact, we often request self-closing springs on doors to make sure that they do close. And soft closing doors as well. OK, so let's move on to... Sorry, was there anything else, Mr Finds, that you wanted to make as part of your submission? So I think that's right. Just to finish off from the last two points that were... So we have requested to extend the licence hours from inside. So that takes us from 11 o'clock until midnight on both Friday and Saturday. It doesn't change what's obviously that will change from the use that will be taking anybody outside inside only. Just to bring that in line with the other local businesses such as the Plough, which is licensed until 1.30. And then the other piece was just to tidy up some of the conditions that we put in on the previous licence such as the last food or at 9 o'clock for an outdoor restaurant. So that we had a clean licence that was understandable to everybody that was to review it. You'll remember though, or maybe you won't if it wasn't you who applied, but the reason that the conditions were applied as they were was in recognition of the fact that this premises in particular is very much surrounded by residential area. So, okay, right, we'll bear that in mind. So let's move on then. Let's ask the representatives if they would like to speak. And first of all, going to take Tim McMahon online. Would you like to make your representation? This is so that people who are taking part remotely don't feel we've forgotten them. So Tim McMahon, would you like to make your representation? Yes, thank you very much. Is it possible to turn your camera on, Tim? Yeah, just one moment. Don't if it's going to scupper your internet connection, but it is good to see people's faces. Does that work? Yep, lovely, we can see you. Thank you. Okay, thank you. So I live in Markby Close, Duxford. Basically, I believe since the summer of 2020, we've been very concerned about the change of use and the resulting noise on the hotel. We believe it's basically changed from its previous use and it's become a venue that seems to be mainly outdoors with a large outdoor eating and drinking space music outside bar. The outside bar is located right at the boundary beside neighboring properties. And it seems to have changed from being a hotel to be more like an outdoor music venue. And this has resulted in a lot of excessive noise and disturbance to all of us in the area. Destruction continuing outside very late at night. And I just don't believe that this application should be approved. I believe it's a major change in the relationship between the hotel and the village. The current situation with the outside license until 9.30 with a bar right at our boundary is very, very disruptive. And people make noise well beyond 9.30 outside. And the fact that there is an outside bar obviously attracts people to be outside. When there's an inside bar, as there always was, people generally tend to drink inside. And we think that this outside license up to 11 o'clock music outside bar, it's going to make things very difficult, particularly those of us with children looking to sleep as well. I think an outside license until 11 will basically have people outside up until about midnight. I think the people who bought the hotel in 2019, I think they should continue to run it with the license that was in place when they bought it. This was all considered and discussed at length in September 2020. I spoke at that meeting at the time and the decision that was made, I'm quoting directly here, it said the restrictions were until 9.30 to address the licensing objective of the prevention of public nuisance. I see no reason why that objective should now be reduced in any way. Our rights as neighbours to some peace and quiet after that time, that should not be diminished in any way since 2020. In fact, many other representations have said that the situation has actually got worse since 2020. With many occasions when music has played very, very late, we have to ring up and ask them to stop. It doesn't stop at 9.30. We regularly have to ring up 10 o'clock after 10 asking them to stop. I also think it's quite important to see that in 2020 there was a certain number of objections. At this time, the objections are far, far greater in number. Also, this time we didn't even get letters in the post whereas we did in 2020, so many people have objected. I really think you need to look at the volume of objections. I think you need to look at the fact that Duxford Parish Council has objected. We don't think it's suitable at all for the village. That's all I have to say. I'll be happy to answer any questions if you have any. And just where you live, what your address is? I live in Markby Close right on the edge of the hotel, at the bottom of our garden more or less. Thank you very much. Can I just clarify, Mr McMunn? You said that it's got worse since the original licensing approval was given in 2020. Obviously, we've heard today this morning that Mr Fein said the sound limiter that was a condition of that approval has not been implemented. I'm just wondering if you feel that the... I know elsewhere in the report people have said that they don't actually see sound recordings being taken. Have you ever seen sound recordings being taken or is your wall high enough that you wouldn't see that anyway if it was being done? No, we wouldn't see it. The wall is too high. And which mainly means that the noise seems to go upstairs where our children are sleeping. But that's just the size of the wall. Obviously, the hotel can't do anything about that. Okay. And the other thing you said that you felt that if a licence was given until 11, that you felt that that would mean that people would be outside until midnight. So, can you tell me, do you have any feeling whether the current drinking up time is being respected? Well, it's very erratic to be honest, Councillor, because sometimes it isn't, sometimes it isn't. We've rung up on several occasions, in particular in relation to the music, and we've been told that they have a temporary licence. We never get any notices of these temporary licences. The music sometimes stops at 9.30 and sometimes it goes beyond that. You know, we've children looking to get to bed and we tell them the music will be over at 9.30 and it doesn't. In the summer, windows open, the noise can go on with people chatting very, very loud to leave the premises sometimes. So, it's very hard to answer. We understand that obviously once you serve alcohol and people are serving or drinking alcohol, outside, that they won't just finish straight away. It will take a while to move them. But I really think if it goes to an 11 o'clock with an outside bar, it will be certainly midnight before people start moving on. Thank you very much. Does anybody else have any questions for Mr McMarn? Yes, Councillor Howell. Just the one question, I think I can answer yourself and then to Mr Neil. Have you made any formal complaints to South Commons District Council during this time period? No, I have grown up and I was told to keep a report or a log. But to be frank with you on a Friday or Saturday night when the noise is the best solution I have is just to ring the hotel and ask them when is the music going to continue. I've had to ring them up beyond 11 o'clock asking for people to tell people who are at the bottom of our garden to stop shouting and talking out loud. So, I don't really find it gives me an obvious solution to ring the council. I find the best thing to do is to ring the hotel, which I've done on many occasions. Thank you. Have we had any complaints about the noise from the hotel? Thank you. Environmental health have confirmed that there has not ever been an established nuisance at the premises. We had a complaint from music from an exercise class and a resident also asked on New Year's Eve whether the applicant had a temporary event notice to which Mr Bynes did. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Miss O'Neill, can you confirm what an established nuisance is defining? What is the definition of that? So, that would be where environmental health have had to visit the premises. Usually comes after a lot of complaints have been received. In terms of the monitoring of the noise, obviously we would have to ask environmental health about that condition I wouldn't be able to specify. So, from that we understand that Mr McMahon has confined his complaints to actually ringing up the premises and asking them to keep the noise down. But am I right in understanding this, Mr McMahon, that you've never actually rang up in South County District Council and made a formal complaint? I haven't rang up to make a form of complaint. I did ring up once to ask what the process was and I was told to keep a record or a log, which I have kept some records and I've noted down dates but most of the time I just want the music and the noise to finish so I ring up basically the hotel. I've had mixed responses from them. Sometimes I've spoken to one or two people who have been quite good. Unfortunately I've spoken to one or two people who have been quite short with us and not really, perhaps a rule would be the word, but it has been quite mixed. Thank you very much. It's the fact that we have to ring up when it should be adhered to straight away and the noise should be patrolled better in my opinion. Thank you. Okay. Miss O'Neil, can you just remind me that Music Act, how long does it allow music to be inside and outside premises? From 8am until 11pm. Inside and outside? Yes. Okay. As long as there's a premises licence. Okay. Certainly. Council Harvey. Yes, if I could just ask Miss O'Neil, this is a situation that sort of evolved contemporaneously with the pandemic as it has evolved. I just wondered, would you like to comment on how that may or may not have affected your experience of the licensing situation and your kind of reporting of the nuisance, even though it seems that you haven't actually reported except for the hotel? Well, in 2020, when everything reopened after lockdown, I believe the hotel at this meeting in September 2020 made a big point about how they wanted to have people outdoors, eating outdoors, drinking outdoors, so that was safer. I mean, I honestly haven't noticed any difference from September 2020 to present. Obviously, there had been restrictions in December 2020 and Spring 2021 when a lot of places couldn't open, but generally when they had been open, we haven't seen any difference whatsoever in pre-COVID or after COVID. It just seems to more or less be the same. So, Council Harvey. I'm not sure if that was the question you were asking. Well, I suppose what I was thinking perhaps was that there have been periods in the last two years where effectively nothing's been allowed to happen and there have been other periods where we can go and sort of meet but only outside and not inside. And I suppose what I was thinking, perhaps if we hadn't had the pandemic, maybe then you would have experienced a sort of gradual change or maybe you wouldn't have experienced a change, but at some point then you perhaps would have been prompted to make or to take some action where actually then another phase of lockdown happens and you're effectively resetting at that point. That was what I was just really wondering about. In other words, it's difficult to kind of judge all these things when so many external factors happening. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. Obviously when things reopened in, I think it was in July 2020, we had obviously had several months where there was, well nothing was open so there wasn't any noise. So obviously when things reopened in 2020, there was a lot of noise and obviously whilst it's been closed there has been no noise but in terms of when they have been open it's been pretty consistent in that there's regularly events there, regularly there's people there late at night drinking and regularly the music goes on and there have been nights as well. I think the person from the large who spoke earlier said that there was no intention to have music beyond Friday and Saturday. Well Friday and Saturday are predominantly the days that we have music but it's completely incorrect to say there has not been music on other days. We've been treated to some spectacular music noise on a Sunday afternoon. That's one that I can recall, which meant we had to ring up. That was in September, October and we've certainly had noise on Mondays and Tuesdays as well. But yes, predominantly on Friday and Saturday, but it is incorrect to say there hasn't been music on other nights of the week. Thank you very much. Thank you. OK, thank you, Mr McMahon. So perhaps maybe the greater change was prior to 2020, it was quieter. Sorry, is that a question? Is that right? Sorry, do you go ahead? Yes, so I believe the current owners bought the hotel in 2019. It opened in 2019 towards the end of 2019 and for that short period I could be wrong on the dates. I think something like October 2019 from that period up until when everything closed in March 2020, I don't think we had any reason to complain. Obviously those were winter months, but as far as I know people went there for meals, for drinks, for other activities. Certainly I have no recollection of anything going on there at that time that prompted me to complain or be concerned. There was a bit of building noise but nothing too much. But when things reopened in July 2020 after being closed from March 2020, that's when things completely changed. OK, thank you very much Mr McMahon. Right, so let's go to... Just to make clear as well, there's also a video clip that has been submitted as well to be played for yourselves at some point when you wish for that to... OK, thank you, that's good. Right, so let's leave the video clip till the end perhaps. Members, when do you think it would be most useful to take that? We could take that now and then maybe that will inform people's... OK, let's take the video clip now. If that's OK with you? Yup, OK. So can somebody just set the scene for this? What are we about to hear? Lovely, thank you. This was taken from a Repsentee and it was on the premises itself. So the person was on the premises filming the event. And what time of year? So like somewhere when people are outside or winter or... They haven't... I don't know when it's from, so it's a clip from on the premises roughly how long is it going to be? One minute. Yes, it's not very long. And it's just illustrating what's going on inside the premises? OK, do we know what time of day? It was from outside of the tent and I believe it was around 9pm. So in the garden but outside the tent at about 9pm in the evening? Yes. Right, OK, let's far away then. OK, I'm just going to get this up and make sure that anybody on the live stream can see it as well. And of course it's not showing my bit of it, is it? Sorry chair. Don't worry, take your time. There we go. OK. OK, so just before we start, this tent is in the garden. Which way are we looking at this point? From which are we looking north or are we looking from the premises down the garden? So this is in the centre of our property and walking along our boundary so it's going from west to east looking north. So it's from your driveway across? No, so this is... Or walking up the driveway? This is right in the centre of our property, it's in the middle. OK. Right. Thank you, thank you Errin, yes please do play the clip. I appreciate that's in the middle of your property. So roughly how far is that from your eastern wall that adjoins the properties on the close? Sorry, mark the close. It's quite difficult to say, I would say probably somewhere between 5 and 10 metres from the start. Because that's a walking video. Are you happy members? You don't want to hear that again? I don't want to hear that again. OK, thank you very much. So let's go to Mrs Joanne Phillips and hear your representations then. Thank you. And just before you start Mrs Phillips, would you like to just say where you live? I live at 19 mark because which is directly behind the hotel and the other side of my house is the plough. The other side of your house is? It's the plough public house. OK. So is actually your garden walls adjoining? Yes. Thank you. Feel free to stop me if I talk too much, I'm a bit nervous. So take your time. We've lived there for six years and have experienced times where the hotel has been quiet. I had weddings and obviously through this period of experience the times it hasn't. The work in the garden started in August 2019 and obviously with the pandemic the garden's opened in July 2020. In August they had an event which was I think the first time we noticed the noise. And I actually have a picture where the speakers were facing the building which is 90 degree angle to my house. So unfortunately because of the building's age and the courtyard being a hard standing that area amplifies all the noise as a natural feature. And therefore I think my house particularly because it is side onto the building with my windows and bedrooms it's more impactful for the people on my side. Approximately about 12 to 15 metres it's not a very big garden from the boundary wall. So it's not a big distance, it's not a huge garden. So unfortunately all the people eating in the courtyard it impacts it is quite visible to me. On New Year's Eve a decibel level in my garden which I did on my phone so obviously it's not particularly accurate. Was 80 decibels and was as I've noted battling my windows at half past 12 at night. I don't know where the temporary licence information is kept but on the website there was only two listed. So when I look for temporary licence there wasn't anything mentioned which is why I said. Because there was no information apart from being told there was fireworks at 12 o'clock of what time it was finishing. So unfortunately I had to be up at 5.30 in the morning so I was concerned of what time it was finishing. I have recorded several instances and written down where unfortunately again due to the amplification I can hear people singing happy birthday, cheering, breaking glasses within my house with the door shut. It unfortunately impacts us throughout the summer because any of the music or windows and doors have to be shut otherwise we are literally 50 metres away from the music. The boundary wall contains on the other side the hotel side a pizza bar which is attached to the wall. One of the pictures from their social media shows that the speakers and the DJ is literally the other side of the boundary wall within 15 metres of my house. Yes it's pointing away from my house but again the amplification in that area which is the courtyard they've built. Even with the tent they've put in the winter time it makes it even louder unfortunately towards my house. The weddings that they had in the hotel before which my solicitor when we bought the house described were mostly on grouts. So we were aware there was a wedding there but you would only be able to hear it so if you were walking in the garden next to the boundary wall. Again I suspect that the landscaping noise has changed that amount of music. So we expected absolutely to have weekend weddings. We have weekend events at the plough as well within their licence and we have absolutely no problem with that. But my objection is that an every weekend licence for music will mean that I can't use my house or garden of any events, any weekend at all. The previous variation in November 2020 specifically stated that it would be seasonal, seasonal outdoor dining, seasonal DJs. And in fact on their social media in December they mentioned having every weekend events from December onwards within a year of this variation has changed completely. And there has been events in February and March since then. Unfortunately the frequency of the music, the loud tones and the datans come straight through the wall as well. So why I couldn't necessarily hear the music, it was about 65 decibels as I recorded it. The high notes still penetrated inside the house even with headphones on it's still able to be heard. As your question about complaints, because of the lockdown there's been significant periods of when it hasn't been able to be opened. So for recording purposes there hasn't been six weeks of events necessarily recently, obviously December it has. And that's why we're here now with the changes because recently it has changed. So our impact has increased over the last four months. And you're pointing that out because the recording that the Environmental Health Office requires is a recording over six weeks. And we understand that it's a business. It's being run as a business. I live next to the plough, expect them to have a business. My house borders on the outside garden of the plough. I'm understanding that we people sat down near my house. It's not directly attached to my house. I have a garage, it's behind the garage. So the impact of people eating is something I expect to have. But the idea for me of having music as well every day from Monday to Sunday in the mornings, whether it's live or not, and I appreciate you said it's only going to be weekends, but the license allows it for any time. And it's not necessarily why I'm considering as a business but as a neighbour. I wouldn't want a neighbour to play music in their garden from every day and be allowed to. So that's, you know, from my point of view, I feel that if that's put on a licence, that is a licence. Their use of, you know, the previous licence has changed already significantly. So that allows for everything to be allowed. Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense. And indeed, Mrs Phillips, you remind me, and perhaps I should have said this before, I too have actually attended a wedding and thought about it until you mentioned that. And I thought, actually, I've been to a wedding there too. And it was going through my mind that I was remembering this as being on grass. And that does obviously make a significant difference. And I can see from the current photography that it's very much being paved on the patio now. And that will have a very different acoustic. So absolutely, I understand. Does anybody have any questions for Mrs Phillips? Thank you. Thank you very much indeed for your representation. So Mr Wright, Mr Michael Wright, would you like to say what your guess is? Yes, yes. I've listened to all the technical stuff come from Brooke and I don't quite understand all of it, but it doesn't really matter. I just want to outline how I feel and where I stand. I live directly opposite Duxford Lodge. In which direction? Are you on St Peter's Road? I'm just nearly opposite there gates. On St Peter's Road? No, no, no. On Eccleton Road. On Eccleton Road. And firstly I'd like to say I have no animosity or bad feeling with the lodge. They've done a terrific job. I have been over and frequented the place and had a drink. So there is none of that in my mind. I've not phoned them. I've not had to complain. We don't have any children living at home and we don't go to bed till 12. So we hear the music and we say the lodge have got something else on. My biggest issue, having in my past run the corn exchange and the Guildhall bars, my youth getting the staff and running all the outside bars, I know how difficult it is to turn it off on the times when you say it's got to finish. Moving people on. Their voices are obviously a lot louder because they have had plenty to drink. That's where the issue comes on my behalf. Now I'm not sure from our lovely legal lady over there where I picked up. Did you say the parking does make a difference to the licensing application? It doesn't. Our problem is that obviously they have now very limited car parking space because they've got this outside area and a grassed area. So my complaint is that when the road is full of cars, unfortunately there's no point in me showing you the pictures of where they're parked completely over the paths and everything, because that's irrelevant to you guys. But what isn't irrelevant is that the guys, the people come out of the lodge late at night and then they stand at their cars, they're talking, the doors are shutting and so on. Our complaint is basically that. And if you go later, you're going to move the talking and everything else further into the night. And we sleep in our bedrooms at the front and there lies our major issue. I would go along with all the other guys with the music noise but on a personal note because of how our life is, it doesn't affect us but I can understand how it can. And to summarise from what the other guys have said, when these people moved into the lodge, they'd done a fantastic job. We thought it was a hotel because of the pandemic. Obviously they've had to take their business into the garden. They need to make a living, which I totally understand, being in business myself. But it's absorbing the premises. It's not going inside. You can't get the number of people that can stand outside inside. So you can't move it. So you're now going to have a situation, maybe 11, half past 11 at night, where you've got upwards, I've been to an outdoor theatre thing on the grass, which they've had 50 people sitting there and that's only in this area. So in fairness, the lodge could probably house 150, 200 in the garden. Now, if that was to happen, we all know 200 people having a good time, that noise rises. Unfortunately, sorry to say it was my age, but the music when I have been there is that music that goes thud, thud, thud, thud. It's not Matt Monroe or The Beatles. It's a different type and obviously they cater for a more modern type of clientele. So hopefully I've got my point over to you. My biggest issue was the fact that it's when they leave the premises because I've got up to 30 cars in a line parked up on the kerbs and everything and people go out and they're standing there, they're chatting, shutting their doors. OK, thank you. I just appreciate what I've done. Because I did this only two weeks ago. If I may just play this on there standing on my front door. OK, just a moment. Are you happy, Mr Vines, that the gentleman plays a recording on this? That's fine. And Aaron, will that be OK to do that in the hall? Yeah, I hopefully will be. It was only a short one. I really did it for the parking which obviously is irrelevant to you. Go too close to the microphone because we might get feedback. I'm just going to take it off flight mode because obviously I turned it on there. So if it bleeps a couple of times just because it's picking up the messages but... Don't worry. Did you hear the music there? Yes, I could. So that was sounds of cars, was it? Yeah, and music over as well. If you can see I am standing at my front door and this is my driver, my vehicles on it and there's the main road and the lodge is over on that corner. So I was picking it up at eight o'clock on a Wednesday evening two weeks ago. I think it was a... No, that could have been a Friday evening. Sorry because I went to Cheltenham so it could have been Friday if I had come back. So what we learn from that is from your front door step and I am not on the boundary like these guys are. So from your front door we could hear noises of cars but we could also hear the thumping of music in the back door. Yeah, sorry, it's not very good on here is it? I'm not saying something in a pejorative way just trying to describe, distinguish it from the noise of the cars. Yes, yes. Okay, righto, thank you very much indeed for that. And Miss, have you got anything questions to ask? Thank you. Thank you very much. It's not so much a question to Mr Wight but it is what Mr Wight has just said and I'm going to use your letter that you give on page 54 plus a question to Mr Vine. So Mr Vine, on page 54 we have a letter from Mr Wight. And on the last paragraph it says there with regards to shall we say the difficulty of staff to get people to come back indoors. And I see that's also a condition that has been placed on page 4 with regards to the last bullet point. Could you just alleviate my concerns that I have there that it would be difficult to bring people back indoors if they're outside sitting in the garden enjoying a drink late one evening? So where we do have a challenge is obviously it's a hotel which operates 24 hours a day and residents are able to... Can you just slow down a little bit? Could you just bring your microphone closer to you? Just slow down. And don't rely on the microphone. We need to hear you speaking clearly. Sorry, it's just the acoustics of the room. So we're used to it so we know we're protected actually. So obviously as a hotel there's residents there which could be up to 32 people 24 hours a day that can do as they wish essentially. We operate as a restaurant outdoors and also as we've, you know, is clear an event venue and possess an event. So there is an element of challenge in making sure the right people have left at the right times. Obviously what we clearly see here is not everybody's aware when there's a temporary event notice in place which does change the time that people are able to leave. And that is also including for the outdoor area. We've been very clear in our events especially when we do the temporary event notice to make sure that any sort of loud music is 10 pm at its latest and then we're talking about ambient music anything past that to support what may be done. But yes it's a challenge but we try and do the best that we can and knowing that you can separate those guests between who is a restaurant diner that will leave or stay in the inside bar who is a resident which has a bar to use indoors or an event that we can clear out that's something to be focused on. Thank you John, thank you both. Thank you. Right, you raised Mr Vines the fact that residents can't know when you've got a 10. Have you ever gone round and met the neighbours and asked to take their email addresses so that you could let them know when you've got a 10 for example? We never had the first time I ever did anything that was on New Year's Eve where we put leaflets through the doors just to say by the way there would be someone to invite anyone to join us because we always had fireworks which is probably more of an inconvenience based on the noise and the pets but definitely something that we need to look at doing where there's a group. It seems that prior to you becoming the owner that there's been a less contentious situation and I just wonder, I'm not saying you're contentious but I'm just saying the things that you're doing have caused more disruption than the previous ownership. Oh, right. I'm just wondering if you've undertaken to meet the neighbours and actually engage with them and understand them and I know Brooke would like to say something. Ms O'Neill, would you like to speak? Very chairman. What I just wanted to clarify was the 10s should be published on a public register but we've migrated systems from Laupak to Tascomi which meant that they have been unavailable for a few months. Okay, but I know of other premises that do, as you say, Mr Vines leaflet their neighbours just to let them know when they're having an event and given that you, what I'm slightly concerned about Mr Vines we've had both Mr McMahon and Mrs Phillips saying that they've sometimes rung you and got differing responses from your staff. Now surely if you're part of a village community, you're a business but you're part of a village community it would seem a good plan, would it not, as a manager of a business to actually maintain good and sympathetic relationships with your neighbours? I mean have you got anything that you want to say about that? I definitely agree more can be done if there's no question about that to keep everybody informed by email maybe. As far as the team and the phone calls unfortunately the hospitality industry is a young set of staff and I imagine when someone's probably angry it's not the nicest phone call to be receiving so that how that's treated is obviously questionable how they may deal with it which I picked up from. As I understand it in business the customer's always right, especially at 10 o'clock at night. Yes, but if you're 17 years old and someone's shouting at you on the phone it's probably you're automatically taken aback and there's probably a better way to be handling that so who would be the responsible person on the site at that time of night? There's a varying team of management that are around but are also participating in the service. Miss O'Neill is that appropriate? Wouldn't it be one named person who should be responsible on a premises? Yes, the DPS. You have a designated supervisor who should be responsible for handling everything that's going on in any premises and any licensed premises at any time of day or night. It doesn't have to be the same person. If I may just share that just to support how the community... Miss Jackson, thank you. It is not in common for a business to have a designated supervisor which of course is required in the licensing act. However, we'd have a list of authorized officers or appointed officers in Miss O'Neill's team. He would be responsible for the day management. Of course, a DPS cannot be there 24-7. However, we'd have a list of responsible persons who would be in effect operating on behalf of the designated supervisor in their absence. They would take on the delegated powers of the designated responsible officer. Are they not in his absence? Yes, they are acting on behalf of the designated supervisor. So they should be more than capable of handling a grumpy phone call at night and being courteous to it, in my view. Right. Mr McMall, do carry on. You wanted to make a point. Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to clarify that I've never been grumpy or angry when I've runged them up. I've always tried to explain the licence and to plead and just to tell people quite politely that we wanted to know when the music was going to stop. And once or twice we had very constructive conversations with people, but at some points we have people who have been quite rude to us. We had a comment once on the lines of, oh, you people are never happy. I would really like to emphasise we've never rung up with an aggressive, angry tone with people. And indeed, that is my experience of people ringing up because they want to achieve a better situation. So it's their motive is not to sit there and shout, but to actually say please, could you keep the noise down. So Mr Vines, have you got anything to say about that? No, I haven't got anything further to say other than, obviously, there's some work to be done. Thank you. Excuse me. Yes, Mr Wright. Yes, could I just say that listening to that last piece of conversation referenced the temporary licences and the fact that there should be somebody more responsible at the end, this is not working at the times we've already got. So if it's not working now, going away from here and you considering granting the application and Mr Vines going away and saying we're going to deal with it, that really to me isn't the answer. The answer is to make sure it's working first and then put an application back in at a later date where we can come along and we've got no questions or answers, not to extend it now until it's been proven. So what we're saying here is that the reason we've got 20 odd written representations is because many people don't feel that the existing conditions are either being respected or enable them to live quite lives in there and have the amenity of their gardens. So I think we have a, there's a loss of trust, isn't there, between the residents and yourself at the moment because people have been upset. Whereas, for example, we know that the plough is very close and it has similar hours but we haven't had any problems there because we know and Mrs Phillips who lives next door to the plough hasn't had any similar problems there. So do you want to say anything about that? Without wishing to seem difficult but it may appear that that's the case. I haven't got any formal complaints and everything that we've done has been within the eyes of the law. We've applied for a licence which may not appeal to everybody for extended hours. The legal measures that were put in place have been adhered to. With the exception of the sound limiter. So just, if I may pick up on the sound limiter, I will find an email in there following the last hearing and actually I don't know if that is still available to view as it was recorded. It was always the condition that the environmental health would come and work with us, work in the village and agree the level, choose the sound limiter that we should install and do that with us. That has never actually happened. What I'm trying to find is there is an email where we've asked for that meeting to take place so that we could adhere to that condition. It's not that we've not done it or ignored it out of choice. There is, again, I think it's been unclear about what we are allowed to do and not unless clearly some changes that can be made such as an email that can go around when we've got an event on or something that's different. Rather than, you know, the traditional trade. Mr Vines, can I just ask, in view of what you've just said, do you think that is why the Environmental Health Officer and perhaps we can ask Miss Jackson is that why the Environmental Health Officer has proposed the condition that we've got on, the series of conditions that we've got on page five because she recognises that the work that was recommended before hasn't yet been instigated? So when I met with Chloe, that was something that I asked for is that they come and tell us what this, except, you know, we can't, we would like, no, actually, we probably wouldn't. We would choose a level of music that was to our taste and not necessarily everybody. It was only fair that an outside party suggested this was an acceptable level that was fine and we would then work to that which is why I asked for that condition. I'm not sure it's up to the Environmental Health Officer to suggest what is appropriate. It's for them to monitor what you, because this takes a heart and mind thing, doesn't it? If you want to be part of your community and working there, you have to put yourself in their shoes and say, well, what's going to be acceptable to them? I think this is reasonable. We'll have it monitored and then we'll see how, and as long as we comply with that, then that's a step. Then that's a way to go. It's not for you to say, well, we think this is okay and if it's too loud they've got to tell us to be quiet. So, Brooke, do you, Miss O'Neill, would you like to speak? Yes, so I think Environmental Health realised that that was not in place which is why they put in a condition that a device will be installed on the premises. Yes, exactly. Because I remember the Environmental Health Officer at the time being extremely helpful about the previous application suggesting that we should do this. I'm really sorry it hasn't been put in place so I can absolutely understand why this bullet at item nine is so extensive. Miss Jackson, do go ahead. Thank you, Chairman. I just want to make a point as well about with the installation of any noise recording device and noise limiters, et cetera. We have, obviously, specialist acoustics technicians within Environmental Health so I would expect them to look very closer with the hotel and you need any premises who seek in device and, obviously, it's about a balancing act to make sure what is the decibel limit appropriate, obviously with noise limits, et cetera, with regard to the traffic we heard on when your noise monitoring is there as well. So, obviously, it is very much relying on not just what the applicant wishes to have because, of course, what a hotel may wish to have may be pulls apart from what a resident thinks is sensible and pragmatic approach and that's obviously why we have the intermediate approach of our experience Environmental Health Officer. Moving forward, over the pandemic, obviously, as you appreciate, work available outreach work with Environmental Health is, obviously, based on, obviously, meeting, being safe and, obviously, premises, et cetera. So, obviously, this going forward, depending on your decision today, of course, is something that Environmental Health will be working with this device on to make sure noise limiting equipment is appropriate and sensible and, of course, does not cause any such noise nuisance and just one other point if I may chair with respect is, obviously, this clearly mentioned, obviously, disturbance at, say, 8pm with regard to noise nuisance. You've got to remember, as Brooke already mentioned, the Light Music Act, which has been in place for a couple of years, obviously has applied any condition relating to noise nuisance. The only way your committee would be entitled to put any conditions on relating to noise from library recording music after 11pm, which is clearly causing residents some concern, would be by way of a review hearing. So, obviously, your issues for today are looking at the extension of alcohol sales, obviously the use of the outdoor bar area and, I think, there's an extension to 12.30 or 11.30 for recording music inside, which, of course, is a matter for your committee, and also the extension to commence alcohol sales on 10am. That's what you're looking at really today. Unfortunately, not conditions and, obviously, our legal adviser here will be able to confirm what I'm saying is correct, but any conditions relating to noise with respect would not be a matter for you to be able to put on a licence today because you don't have the power to do so as per the Live Music Act. No, that's right. Sorry, I'll come to you in a moment. One of the things I wanted to ask you was would the Environmental Health Officer be given that the noise arrangements on the current licence have not apparently been complied with would the Environmental Health Officer work with Mr Vines to make sure that they are complied with even if I'm not prejudging the committee, but we have a number of options here and if we said no I'm not saying we would, but if we said no, would the Environmental Health Officer work with Mr Vines with regard to the current conditions on the licence? Absolutely. That is our function of Environmental Health and Technology in the public news. Okay. Thank you. Can I just bring you to Ms Jackson, if you don't mind please? Page 5 bullet point 2 I just want to look at the opening sentence there. The suitable environment and noise control device should be installed in the premises, calibrated and set to the satisfaction of the council's noise control officer. So it's we that actually do that to our satisfaction. I just want to clarify that. The ones that I've worked with in the past if their particular noise level is breached automatically can cut out the music is that the type of system that we're talking about? There is a variety, but you're absolutely right Councillor Howell, that is one of the options it would have an automatic cut out once it reaches an accessible level noise altogether would go which obviously destroys the whole. Also it is in my experience that there is a huge difference between plain noise at a particular level when the room is empty to when the room is very full of bodies. So can I ask would this be calibrated when it's under shall we call it live conditions? From previous experience I can't obviously confirm it's how it comes but previously where I've worked elsewhere that's exactly how it would happen. There'd be pointless exercise to say a room now calibrated in the noise level and a room compared to having 50 people and 100 people in progress. That's fine, that's good. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So we've got an undertaking that regardless of the outcome of this hearing that we would have the environmental health officer has undertaken to go and look at the premises with regard to the calibration of the system, the installation and limiting arrangements. Okay, so that's good. Having said that I sort of went through and summarised the changes and the first one is this sort of live music to midnight whereas the Live Music Act allows Live Music to up to 11pm, doesn't it? So the application would be for an hour beyond the normal Live Music Act permission. So perhaps Mr Vines you'll confirm for me my understanding or perhaps officers would confirm. My understanding is these changes summarised include the addition of Live Music to midnight indoors and outside to 10pm. Yes, that's correct. The addition of recorded music to midnight I think that was indoors and half past midnight on Friday and Saturday. Was that indoors or outdoors? So both of those are indoors and then the brackets at the bottom are limiting the outdoor to 11pm. Sorry, just to clarify there there was a misunderstanding with what we class as recorded music as being ambient background versus a DJ which plays recorded music. So for outside for a DJ for example we were saying that nothing would be later than 10pm. So recorded music. So that's indoors and outside but it says indoors and outside Monday to Thursday 7pm which we're trusting is going to be your ambient music. You won't be doing DJ stuff at 7pm in the morning but then to midnight indoors and outdoors. So we can only apply for the timings in one for further our entire premises which is why the additional notes we've put on to clarify what the outside requirement was. Oh I see outside area ambient music not to start before 9pm and finish by 11pm. So Mr Vines. So Mr Vines has already accepted the condition from environmental health which states live and or recorded music constituent regulated entertainment shall not be permitted in the external areas of the premises after 11pm on any day except in a year where this can be extended until 12.30am. Okay so just let's get clear the previous condition said it should stop at 9.30am but that was not in compliance with the Live Music Act. So is that partly why you've been carrying on with music later? So we've never carried on with music later without a temporary event notice which is then for a special event. Righto. Okay. So going on down through the list then we've got the summary here haven't we? Live music indoors and outdoors until midnight but not outside until only until 11pm and then late night refreshment you didn't have this before did you? So this is to cover your outdoor bar and offer. Sorry that so the late night refreshment is to cover the inside hotel operations for the restaurant. Okay righto. But it doesn't cover your outdoor bar or I suppose it will because it's indoors and outdoors. Again I copied the same limitations at the bottom to make sure that there was no outdoor bar past 11pm at any point and for the terms that we've agreed to with the environmental health was about the drinking past 11pm outside. Okay and you said no, it currently says no food orders from 9 and you're saying no, no So I've asked that to be amended the wording because it's confusing just to say that so we can see our last table at 9 o'clock. Last table to be seated at 9. And sorry if I may just stay in here at this point we have asked and I'm happy to put into some agreement about music, you know I understand no one can put a condition on us that we can play music past 10 o'clock but we're happy to accept those terms and the same I'm not worried about it in any other day of the week unless there's a special event situation which we apply for. I don't know how there's a position that we can have that stated that Monday to Thursday or Monday to Wednesday or Sunday to Wednesday we're not after live entertainment outside it's not in our interest it's not something that we want to do for the area or for our own business but there's nothing to give everyone this guarantee that can be written into a document The unfortunate thing is that once a licence is applied it applies to it goes with the land it doesn't go with the the publican so or the land the owner so you know you might have that view but we need to be careful of the circumstances in which the lodge is you know for any future person who had the licence so can I just come back to an understanding of what your view is of your business in the village of Duxford So on a day-to-day basis it's supposed to be a hotel with an Alfresco restaurant which has got its Mediterranean courtyard and pizza kitchen excuse me and that being added to or enhanced by on a Friday on a Saturday evening background be careful with the word background so a live DJ playing music whilst people eat this is not a party, it's not a nightclub this is supposed to be music that you can still talk and have dinner at which is how the normal operation is we also then have an event side of the business where there may be weddings or other events christenings, birthday parties etc which then want something a little bit different which is a bit more of a party situation and that at the minute we've been using the temporary event notice process for so what would you say the impact is of your business on your neighbours given what you've heard today and the representations you've heard you've read in the papers So from looking through obviously it's clear that it's confusing about what we are and are not allowed to do for everybody which I think starts off on a you know a backward foot there because it just causes frustration it's unclear to everybody what can be done and when we frustrate people with noise there were some measures taken last year and a noise control device will obviously help for that because it's someone's actually saying this is what acceptable looks like to everybody to understand the acoustics from the different houses all a long mark because it's or obviously it's very difficult for us to say or not but you know it's not our intention to be there in and annoy people it's supposed to be another community business and part of it Okay One of the things I noted when I was reading through your application I cannot now find my notes but I noticed you said we want to bring the licence in line with our business and I thought well actually know the point is that the business should have been working in line with the licence I understand the point about some aspects of it being confusing but I suppose what I just want to understand from you is whether you recognise you have an impact on your neighbours and how you view your responsibilities with regard to that so we've already mentioned the fact that sometimes when people ring up and ask you to turn the noise down because even if it is before 11 it's not unreasonable to ask people to turn the noise down you know that you should have staff on there who accept that you know you're part of a community and you have a responsibility to them and to go and turn the noise down you know not argue or whatever so I mean I just wonder I want I want to hear from you yes we accept what you're saying and we recognise that we have a responsibility to our neighbours I suppose that's Q I do absolutely recognise that yes and I hope I've never come across any different where I've said in the application about you know matching the level of business to run a restaurant for us it's very difficult we bring people to a courtyard that can probably sit maybe 60 to 70 people in one night for dinner and you can come in and you can book a table from 5 o'clock in the afternoon until 9 o'clock in the evening if you come at 6 o'clock you'll just have our background music if you come at 7 o'clock there may be a live DJ playing and if you order a drink you will get it from the served by waiter from the bar one side of the courtyard until 9 30 but the team that are serving will go inside and serve you at 9 35 from the other room that you can't see if you'll sit down at 10 to 9 we have to take your entire food order at once including dessert to make sure that we don't take a food order past 9 o'clock to meet the conditions but if you sit down at 8 o'clock you'll have your start as a main course and you can choose whether you'd like dessert or not so that's where I'm trying to say I'm trying to bring the light that's in line with the business to allow us to make run and operation smoothly and unfortunately in all of that you haven't once referred to your neighbours but okay I hear what you say and you're running a business I do understand what you're saying one of the other things is that it would seem reasonable to observe that since 2020 there has been a proliferation of both hard standing outside the back of in your garden but also a proliferation of different types of ways of encouraging people to be outside so lots of tables tents pergola, it was originally a pergola wasn't it but then you have expanded the operation that's going on in the garden obviously due to pandemic largely so you must accept that there is more going on in the garden than used to we have yes so obviously and there's things that you mentioned earlier on one of the noise complaints was about the sport which we stopped we put private dining pods in to stop any use of the top lawn so that we've come away from that part of the warden, it's in an enclosed space the idea of the TP which is the cupboard space now outdoors was just so that we can continue using our space in the British weather rather than it also then presented an opportunity which was not the initial piece to allow a space that people could use all year round for an outdoor COVID friendly space just a couple of questions one to the committee temporary licences are there are there notifications to people so that they can be objected to they just come directly to you and you say yes or no so in that event I believe they have to be advertised no on the website no so you can't object to a temporary event notice no so there is always possibilities that there could be three events on in one week and then what we are discussing today is irrelevant because you're going to get three nights of extended music and extended alcohol if they are granted yes so a premises can have a maximum of 12 10s per year and an overall limit of 21 days 21 days that's great thanks for that answer and the other question is to me please direct your questions through me oh sorry my other question was what happens when you have 150 people in your garden and then you have to move doors when you only have a premises that can hold 50 what happens to those other 100 do you send them home or are they still going to be outside taking their drink from inside to out because they can't stand they can't be inside and the circumstances in which that might happen would be at the end of at the end of the licensing hours yes yes so Mr Vines would you like to answer that question sorry so the question if people were drinking outside and they got to the point at 11 o'clock when it needs to be Mr Wright believes they need to move indoors I think actually the answer that is the sale of alcohol allows drinking up does it not allows drinking up time does it not in the garden I suppose the general point is how do you get people to move out of your premises and either go home quietly so it was about the 100 people yes we can't fit 100 people inside yes so if there's a function outside but the licensing law for the courtyard as opposed to inside the premises is different they can drink longer inside the building and the music can go longer inside the building if you've got a function that's outside with live music but they want to now join the inside at 11 o'clock but the property can't house those people what's going to happen because I fully understand that it's a difficult situation for getting young staff to be able to say I'm ever so sorry but we're at capacity you're going to have to leave one it's no good for business and two they won't have the authority to do that okay so let's ask Mr Bynes Mr Bynes Mr Dresley's answer to me so for us events are pre-booked elements they have closing times and we apply for licenses so everybody knows our current setup and then we so if someone's going to have a party for example we would say to them that they would like live music until 10 and they'd like our bar to open until 12 we apply for a license for that and as part of the general booking process there we do look at how taxes collect people when they leave and the lodge doesn't open itself for that because the license currently goes to the whole part if that was to change we can't physically accommodate the people in the same space anyway so it wouldn't be an operation it wouldn't be operationally possible for us to do it it would operate in exactly the same way the inside element of our bar is we also operate a general restaurant from the room which can take maybe 40-50 people that's something for them and a cocktail bar inside which is a different level of different type of clientele so the question is how do your staff encourage people to so from 11 o'clock when you're not allowed to have any more musical activity in the garden how do your staff encourage people to either leave quietly or come into the building so at the minute we have to do exactly the same it's just a bit earlier on so there's a bill presented, they have to close and we ask people to go home that's exactly as it happens now it's just one of those things we're not really a late night venue and have never been that late I understand that the evidence that we're looking at here for some of the complaints is about an event but on the day-to-day operation basis we're not but these 20 people have complained about the noise of people leaving and I'm a bit disappointed not to hear you saying that perhaps you haven't been doing a good enough job up to now we need to work a bit harder on encouraging our clients to leave quietly because that also is a responsibility of the designated responsible person or their delegated authority so righto Members, any other questions for anybody Mr MacMahon is there anything else that you wanted to say no I think I've tried to explain everything and what I said and I've just asked you to look at what Duxford Pirate Council has said and the sheer volume of people who have made representations this time because I don't believe the situation can get any worse or we'll get worse if the licence is extended OK Mrs I'm sorry, I do apologise Mrs Phillips Did you have anything As far as the business we all support it, we always did especially in lockdown and how difficult it's been As a hotel, we expect it to have events absolutely normal and they've had events, they've been lovely events not a problem The difference in December was having events every weekend and going forward different from the variation in November 2020 when it was specifically stated by the licence holder that events would be summer time outside dining so the difference between a year into December is what has impacted us most once a week, once a month you expect some events possibly a Saturday night for a wedding, not a problem but every single weekend is a major impact on the use of your house use of your garden which is why I'm here and I appreciate the business and this is something they want to do but my house is the longest garden at 12 metres the rest of the houses are much smaller gardens than I do and are much closer to the wall so their impact is even more unfortunately Very interesting points about the echoing of noise from the walls I mean they did address a lot of issues the barbecue next to the wall smoking area next to the wall but we didn't have any consultation at that time what they were doing or what impact was and Tim's children in that garden was next to the smoking area unfortunately and it still is, I don't know if he's still using the smoking area but that's the designated area at the time so unfortunately from the beginning there was a lack of consultation as to what they were doing the other side and now we feel that we're expected to listen to music every weekend or expected to complain or formally about it I mean lockdown has changed things sometimes they've been also open sometimes they haven't, the same has been for the plough and throughout the summer with the lockdown they had a marquee outside the plough literally next to my back garden so you wouldn't expect to complain because that was what businesses needed to do absolutely which is hence why there hasn't been a lot of complaints from my side to support the business in that respect so thank you very much indeed so Shirley Miss I can't remember anybody's name today I'm so sorry Shirley Tracy did you have any further sorry Mr Wright's already spoken again haven't you we've heard from Mr Bynes so Ms Tracy as a legal officer would you like to give us any summing up? just to remind you that of course we're here today to look at the application for the extension and not the hours that are in existence at the moment I'm just to be mindful of that when you're deliberating thank you very much was there anything further from the licensing officers? thank you Chairman okay so did you want to make any final closing remarks Mr Bynes? I think just in there for me if it's okay you've mentioned twice that I've not recognised the village or the noise and our impact there and I clearly haven't made myself very clear because I do recognise the part of the village and I have said that earlier on so I do recognise this and I also said that we have a team which clearly need to work on some training so just to reiterate that point just to make it clear so that there is work to be done for this either way whether this is granted today or not there's still some work for the villages and for us in the business just wanted to make that point clearer than I may have done from the two times I spoke earlier okay thank you very much indeed right with that then thank you very much everybody for taking part and Tim for taking part online the panel and the legal officer stay in the room and the clerk say in the room we have our deliberations but we will send you our response in writing within what's the number of days Mr Jackson or O'Neil we write to you fairly promptly anyway once we've made a decision I think it's within 10 days we write to you to give you the outcome but thank you very much indeed sorry is it sorry I thought it was 7 oh 7 days okay even quicker but thank you very much indeed for coming and for making your cases so eloquently thank you very much Mr Vines for taking part and we will write to you within 7 days to give you the outcome and I'm sure we would advise the people who've made representations as well okay thank you very much indeed thank you