 My name is Pablo I'm Steve and we're gonna talk today about hunting value and What does product what product owners need to do in order to discover the right requirements? But if we would do that little let's do a little exercise to find out who's in the room As a quick pop-up, we're gonna name some roles if you are fulfilling that role to stand up We're gonna well, we're gonna play like a game of popcorn. Yeah, so so pop-up like popcorn So we call if you're the role pop up And it's a back down and you might pop up more than once because people are in more than one role, right? You might have multiple, but let's try it out product owners in the room business analysts We got to see you got a pop-up enough for us to see you requirements engineers drummasters and coaches Developers You X people sales people company owners customers Yeah, that gives us a good idea. Yeah, so what we want to do the most of this session is going to be called the discovery dojo and Yeah, we just want to let you know that this is not going to be a session Hopefully this is not going to be a session where we stand up and talk to you a lot Both of us love to talk So if it turns into a session where we're talking to you a lot Give us a signal because we don't want to stand here and talk to you a lot We want to create an environment where you will work with each other to find the answer So if you're if you're expecting a session where we give you a lot of information and that you write it down and walk away That's not what this type of session is just to let you know in advance So if that's the kind of accession you're expecting You might want to look for a different session If when you remain here, we're going to be doing a dojo, which means We're going to have some exercises where you're working together to practice this information and The door just sounds like your passion Steve what would you what other questions do you have? Yeah, gee I'm passionate about a lot of things. I'm passionate about Lego serious play. I'm passionate about working with people I'm passionate about working with scrum masters, but another thing I realized is it in my career In agile I started as a scrum master now I'm an independent agile coach and I go around the world training and coaching and I in addition to working with scrum masters and teams what I realized is that in a lot of the work We do an agile we start talking about the team and the scrum master and we say and there's a product owner and the product owner does all this stuff and That's about it. So I'm I've become really passionate in Working with the product owners and the people that work with the product owners to build up Our knowledge there. So we've got great knowledge about scrum masters great knowledge about teams and I want to make sure we have great knowledge about product ownership and I Passion about other things which I'll probably hear about throughout the session. I just can't keep it in so Pavel tell it. Tell me what you're passionate about I'm passionate about helping organizations to build innovative products by helping with out-of-box thinking But I'm also passionate about my cat and the country I live in South Africa Great So we started introducing ourselves. I guess we can continue I'm Steve Holier I'm based in Zurich, Switzerland. I'm not from Zurich Switzerland I'm originally from the US, but I've lived in Zurich for 16 years. So we can also say I'm from Zurich Like I said, I love to travel around the world If you're interested in contacting me you see my website and my Twitter handle The same with me. I'm from South Africa, Johannesburg, and there's a couple of contact details for me And if you'd like to share your thoughts on Twitter, we came up with a special Handle, it's a hashtag discovery door job And we love when people tweet about us. So if you you know if you want to help us out Yes, I Started tweeting anonymously because I like to fuss about the people that I'm working with and so I created a Twitter handle that Nobody could associate with me, but then I started going to conferences and people Actually one person who knew my Twitter handle wrote we're really glad that Steve Holier is here Now I have to stop fussing at work, but since everybody knew me by that handle. I didn't change it It actually means mostly in Swiss German. It's a play on words. It means Zurich style most of the session is Based on the book Discover to Deliver which was written by Ellen Gaudestiner and Mary Gorman. This is a fabulous book We have it here. It's full of information And if we were to really tell you what's in this book, we will be here for a week So we're gonna give you a taste of it and if you want to find the book and Read it and use it the authors have given us a discount code, which will display again at the end for a 40% discount and They wrote the book on the material we're covering I Turned it into a dojo. I thought this is something we need to have in a dojo And then I talked to Ellen the author and she thought that was such a great idea of it Ellen and I Have run the dojo in Sweden and we're going to run it again We hope in Florida and in the meantime Pavel has joined us. It's been a lot of fun So we're talking about a value hunt and The people that help us hunt value and to begin that hunt We need to first hunt some product owners in the room and we're take a Kind of a broad view of product ownership There's this role called product owner But we believe more than more people do product owners ownership than just the person who's called the product owner So even if your Titled not product owner you can still join us as a brave PO. So we're hunting a few brave PO's and I'd like you to see if you will join us and be a brave PO I'd like to ask you to stand up now. I'm gonna before you stand up. I'll tell you a little bit about what you're going to do In the dojo, you're going to bring a product need to your dojo group and your group is going to discuss your product need So if you if you are a brave PO that means a couple things You need to have a real product need that you can bring to the group It needs to be a real product need because we're talking about passion you can you can use an example something you read in the book But the passion is not there and we really want the passion. That's why we're asking for a real product need It has to be a real need you can share I know a lot of people work on products that aren't the information is not publicly available So we're not asking you to share confidential information. It needs to be information you can share And it needs to be you need to bring real features that you will implement in the future Sometimes when we run dojos people bring a problem or a product need that they solved three iterations ago and Again, the passion is missing because they're just replaying something that's already happened So we're looking for a real product that you can share and features that will be implemented or could be implemented in the future So who do we have who's willing to volunteer to be our brave product owners? So we got one two three four five So if you can stand up to help everybody see if you can stand up I'm not sure I'm not first selling the selling that we are right we do have Let you know My sales effort here So so we will pay you in a way for being a brave product owner what you get paid There's always value for value the value get you'll get you the brave product owner will get the most value out of this session So that's what we give you back if you stand up. Do we have anybody else? Who would like we need a few more if somebody else stands up? We've got one back here keep standing? That's great. Thank you very much. We also have the case study Which we're going to get to for if we if we need a case study as well So remember that you guys we didn't take things you guys remember All right. Well, actually if you brave PO's can stay standing what we need to do for the doger We're going to form groups of three to five there needs to be at least three people in a group and we'd like to you to Five if you go to six nobody's going to complain, but there has to be at least three and You need a brave PO in your group so the brave PO's now if you hold up your hand so people can join you in a group and You're also not allowed to have more than one break. You're in the group, right? That's right. The group is too brave Yes, so maybe self-organized There are tables, but there are also groups of chairs to put around so if you can have five people Or people around you in some manner so move around give it a couple of seconds to organize at least Six is all right Six is okay. He doesn't have a product owner yet. So we have a product owner here and looking for a group Okay, there's Maybe we can form a table Group they need a little bit of help come on one or two people come on Why are you will you want to have to? We'll talk about it Anyone wants to join this group? Awesome, so are there any groups with without a PO I think we have every group a Product all right, is everyone sorted no problem. Cool. Is it am I seeing this quickly every group has a PO? Every group has a product so we don't need the case study. We don't need a case study. Oh, man This is awesome anyone not have a product owner. Oh, man The Germans are always too shy to to volunteer. We always have to use the case study, but awesome great. All right, so The first thing we want to do is to learn about your product vision So the the groups you're in will become your dojo groups who are not going into the dojo yet, but the first thing We would like you to do is Share your product vision with your table so that means the brave PO tell your product vision You've got seven minutes, which means this needs to be a high-level product vision This needs to be an elevator pitch because we don't have more than seven minutes and As you share your product vision, I'm sure the people around your table will want to ask questions The danger is the questions get very involved and again, we don't have time for that. It has to stay high level and If you have time you can create a short list of features that need to be released We're not talking about user stories as a user I want we're just talking about a keyword features a list of features that you might Release in the coming releases any questions about that So the brave PO you probably know the vision, but you'll share it with your group Feedback, so how many items did you end up with you in your list of features? Maybe initial product backlog. Just let us know shout it out five three Zero All right cool So what we're gonna do So what we would like to do now is to think of How would you prioritize in your list? How would you select maybe for the next release if you say six weeks or three sprints? We put six there, but because of the of number of items in your backlog I would assume they quite big so if you were to select one or two What the criteria would be for you to? prioritize your list Value all right, so so we always when we talk about prioritization. We talk about value Interesting, but what does it mean? What does value mean? Somebody tell us what value means What what's value? Okay Return investment or making money right to revenue generation customer. Um, what if you work for a compliance project? Yeah Saving time or saving money so that my question was what if you work for a compliance project and you're not making any money How would you define value? Yeah, create business opportunity business opportunity Yeah, value in creating opportunities values in knowledge. Yeah Exactly, it's a simple money-saving project right the highest priority items in your compliance project is to get your executive part of jail All right, and the second one is to keep your license as a bank, right? And so you can still prioritize you can still find the value but interesting That you guys came up with all the different definitions of value Is um who's right who's wrong yet? Everyone is right, right? We have so many different definitions of value and unless we talk about the definition of value for our project We might use the same work This is valuable to me or this is this should be valuable, but you might imply a different thing so one of one of the Responsibilities of product owner is to actually define and value collaborative with Collaboratively with with other stakeholders, but sometimes if you don't do that Feature to filter down which service design people called divergence and we're calling that process plus the confirmation the structured confirmation conversation But the next question so Then if you're because once you release something Once you release something and you release it to the market, right? You start collecting feedback You need to go back to your exploration, right? So that's not customer wanted what you really or what you really wanted so that it's not once off process You can't just oh we explored for the next five years. That's good enough, right? In our pre-ajah way of thinking we had a long exploration phase where a bunch of people sat in the project management or the business analyst office and explored and created this big list Then some smart people said okay We'll circle the items that get done and then they got developed and it was released and that was the end or you Pay a lot of money for the next version in this agile world We're talking about iterations every week every two weeks doing a very quick explorer at the beginning of the iteration very quickly deciding on evaluating what we're going to do that iteration and Get it out release it so for the first stage of the confirmation is confirming with your stakeholders that That you've evaluated what they'd like you to evaluate the next stage of confirmation is getting that software To the customer's hands and then getting that feedback which feeds the next cycle of exploring again But we back to the question So who does a product owner take on his hunting journey for the value? So who does the product owner talks to? Customer, right? It's an obvious run, but is just talking to the customer now or do we need to take some someone else? Others Yes Talk to himself Yes, so you might consult some other sources of information Operations finance a charge depends on what type of product you do right you might consult subject matter expert in your organization Customer is some some someone else Solution architect that's all the right answers Scrum monsters So so if we look at that maybe if we go to this next slide we actually have three different groups of Staple this but Steve will correct me now. I won't correct you but Yeah, I Wanted saw I do what what I do want to do is talk about the product the product partners so We've been talking about this one person called the product owner who sometimes you're lucky enough to have Stalin as a product owner and we're saying that's actually nobody wants to have Stalin as a product owner because This hunt for value takes place in a partnership and instead of assigning the product owner to hunt the value We are forming up Partnership of product partners and all the product partners want to get value out of the product and the list of product partners is huge But we're claiming that you can have three categories of product partners The customer is the first partner everybody always thinks of that's both We're not distinguishing here between the customer and the user But the customer partners both the person who's paying for it and the person who's using it to this in this model So the customers are partners, but they're not your only partners You have a whole class of partners and they're the next partners that everybody thinks of and those are the business partners So they are your your shareholders. They are the people who run your company. They're probably your boss they might be The finance office these are the people in your business and when we talk about stakeholders We usually name those the customer stakeholders and the business stakeholders They probably come to your sprint review meetings if you're doing scrum There's a whole third class of partners which you guys have mentioned but it we often forget about the third class of partners And that's the technology partners So the technology partners are all the people involved in the technology of building the product And that's the dev team the dev team are partners in the product So when we're talking about this conversation Looking for value the dev team is there and not just the dev team if you're working in a large Organization the director of it the it department The it standards the architecture board They're your their partners with you in the product as well as the the standards organizations the hardware folks They're in your technology partners Yes, so we have a quick exercise, right No, not orange green So for Yeah, okay, so for So I'd like you to take two minutes and in these two minutes think about the product that you're working on at your table and Take two minutes To list as many product partners as you can as many as you can But I want I'd like you to list two at least two from each category So at least two business to customer to technology in two minutes you might list more Okay, if you know the name of the person. Yes, what's hard about it? It is hard. It is hard. It's hard. It's hard in real life, too, right? I Was hoping that was gonna happen. So so that was a that was a little bit more than a minute I've been a little bit more than two minutes. Have you got six? Is everybody got six partners written down? So for the next two minutes For the next two minutes what I'd like you to do is think about these six part pick six partners and Write down what motivates those partners so So your compliance officer is motivated by keeping the company out of an audit perhaps um Keeping the company out of jail your I technology partners motivated by having a clean architecture Try and find a motivation for at least one motivation for each partner in the next two minutes You should impact we know you won't finish every conversation What's important we feel is that you start the conversation and you have an experience of that conversation Because when you go home, you're going to be wanting to continue this conversation so don't be worried if you're not finishing the conversation but Let's see fingers how many How many motivations did you come up with did you come up with six four? Four I see some four three Five Okay, one. Okay. I think I think that's that's good The the team that has one might maybe thinking of some more on the fly maybe So we want to come now. We really want to start the dojo so Don't I don't really understand So much about the martial arts where the term dojo comes from I Have been told that the dojo means in Japanese the place of the way and a lot of things happen in the dojo It's a spiritual place It's also the place where people go to train and so especially in America when a when people are learning the martial arts They go to the dojo to practice their martial arts with other people to master their skills Someone who knows more about dojos than me. Is that a fair enough description that we can There's usually someone who says you got it all wrong. So I'm open to that Okay Okay. All right. So what we want to do is go into the dojo this dojo Rich you may have seen this in Berlin this this dojo is based on a series of coaching dojos that I've done and These dojos were based on the work of Rachel Davies just to let you know that and of course Rachel Davies Based on Dave Thomas's work who created some coding dojos What we want to do in this discovery dojo is to find a product executive you might even call that a product partner who has a product need and Somebody needs to take the role of a product facilitator Name them specifically, but we want to talk about a person Right, so that might be there might be different scenarios like they might do product Scrum In real life the roles sometimes change in real life the scrum master might facilitate this conversation with the product owner Other times the product owner might facilitate this conversation with a stakeholder as you said many times you may be in a situation where you in a dev team need to be Using your skills to facilitate this conversation with the product owners if that's not taking place So various people can take this facilitation role often That's very much the job of the product owner, but not always it needs to happen So many different people can take the facilitation role Because it might not apply to your particular environment, but do you Okay, so I've probably gone down the rabbit hole, so I'm coming back out And so in this dojo you need to have three roles the product executive is the person who has the product need So for you it's your brave PO The product facilitator someone who wants to take on this facilitation role to practice And then you have three three or the rest of you are observers And we're going to do it like this if you're going to spend five minutes with the facilitator asking Facilitative questions to the product executive two minutes Will be a chance for the product executive to give feedback of what it was like Then three minutes is everybody gets to give feedback But the observers who've been sitting there observing the whole time get the first chance to give the feedback And you see pictures of the chair on the wall because we're actually going to ask you to move your chairs so that the Product facilitator faces the product executives and the observers are around I Want to tell you a couple things that come from the coaching dojo experience? We want to make this safe. So your product owners are sharing about their real product We'd like that to be safe for them. So This is an invitation they've given extended the invitation to you to talk about this now But they haven't really invited you to share it with the world or to critique it with the world So keep that in mind keep that here and we also we also ask it a coaching dojo and let's dojo too Your role is if you're a facilitator your role is not to fix their product Your role is to ask them questions to help them understand their product, but you're not trying to fix it and Finally you hear something that you would like to talk about later if that's the case You approach someone later. They may or may not want to keep talking about it So do ask them is it okay to talk about it and do you have time now to talk about it? That's that's what I request Help you out a little bit So don't try to answer question yes, yes or no questions because there's only two options Yes or no, right to try to ask Questions why there's a more powerful or what? The health Russian question is also powerful But for the sake of this exercise you might go down to too much technical detail. So leave that out as well So so we try it out. Yeah, so so again what the idea here is We're going to spend the next ten minutes evaluating so Given your general idea about what's in the product pick About six items three to six ones even okay To implement in the next release and for our sake we're going to say a release is about six weeks three sprints and This point use what motivates your product partners as your value filter So if you're the facilitator ask some good why questions and some good what questions of your product executive to help them filter And choose based on the value Okay, so that was the five minutes What we're going to do so you can continue this conversation. We're going to Change the criteria and do another dojo. So you'll get a chance to do this again But now we're going to move into the first feedback round And this is a chance for the person who was in the product Executive role to tell you how it felt to be in the product executive role. So take two minutes to do that Two minutes What was it like for you as the executive? The next phase and this is when everybody gets to tell what they noticed What did you observe and start with the people who were officially observing? But everybody gets a chance to tell what you observed. What did you observe? I have one question to ask What surprised you do by doing the dodger dodger? What surprised you? What surprised you that person was the product executive? Yes, what else? So the context of value, I think you're always thinking about making assumptions was the money that you're making from the income But also the principle in which you operate Are you okay to pay money to your partner? So that you're recommending? The assumptions are never valid So do you think they did some of that? I'm asking a powerful question Is that... Yeah Yeah All right, there was the... There was something from this table Yeah But I asked you questions if you got all the stories You touch it up and you make your user stories better Yeah Anything else? Yes Did you see what happened? Did you observe and start with the person? Yes By discussion, the picture was more vivid, right? So you had a better idea through discussions, right? All right, so we're done with the first dodger I think it's good enough we... Yeah What? The whole conversation happened without documentation, yeah Yeah, you don't need the... That's a good thing Yeah Let's move on All right So it doesn't mean you don't want to record the conversation after the conversation happened All it means is the documentation shouldn't be a replacement for your conversation That's all it says But you might record the conversation Or you might write down the key points, outcomes of your conversation Maybe in a matter of better user stories, right? So that might be the outcome or output of your conversation The commutation doesn't go away You just need to understand what comes first The conversation comes first Because you'll have one person having the conversation with the person While the other one is dealing with people So if they're dealing with people, they may have good views of their conversation If anyone knows what lies, there's gaps in the conversation Then your roles can switch very quickly like this Usually the person who's asking the question is so focused on listening to us It's a good theory We are talking Based on the training that we've had It's from a five-year relationship We think that we need to In the terms of user stories I want some access So that I reach the value There's a value at any point There's actually better than a six-year But there's better than five more than a six-year Sometimes it's really something of data And if you don't have enough You don't have the environment to satisfy the problem So for example, if you don't want to You don't have to run And if it's as high as it is Or we'll have the Android version of the iPhone You don't have to run Yeah, so let's run another round of dojo This time let's swap the facilitator So product owners, you stay the same But maybe let's give someone else a chance to be a facilitator And by applying maybe one or two Or multiple different dimensions Try to see how your conversation involves as well So let's run another round Based on your observations Based on the learnings of a group Plus based on this dimension There might be some extra questions Which pop up in your head To ask your product owner Or product executor Anything different with anything better or worse? Yeah You're getting into more details More specific functions and requirements Through dimensions By asking specifically around different dimensions Okay Other comments? More structure Yeah Yeah Those dimensions give you a little bit more structure When you have those The idea itself Question Alright, so let's wrap up Alright, so we have four minutes left I wanted to mention really quickly We're not going to be able to use it But I wanted to mention very quickly Why these papers are in the front of the wall In the back you might not be able to see it But you see But there is a paper for the different partners And then for each of the seven dimensions So if you're going to have a workshop Where you're helping people have this conversation One thing you can do is create This would be called an option board And you can create the option board By putting these out on the wall And as you learn You asked about documentation As you learn something about the user You can come over here And write it down under user And these older tools That we used to have They work really well here When you're talking about the user You might be doing something Like creating an iteration map When you're talking about the data dimension You might be creating a data model So that's how you would be able To start using this And creating some documentation But the idea is not to create A year's worth of documentation The idea is to create just enough To do the next iteration And then come back So I just wanted to throw that out there To let you know That that's something you can look into And you can download this option board So if you're going to try to do this workshop You can download the papers That let you do it At discovertodeliver.com I think the main point That we wanted to highlight today Is that the product owner Is not about the status It's not about $2,000 But throughout the presentation We're asking the right questions And you're now at the right time I started running these dojos In my product owner classes And I do master classes So I do classes for product owners Who've been doing being product owners For a long time And a lot of times In the debrief The thing I hear is Wow, it's really valuable To talk to other people And I'm like, I'm really glad I helped you have that experience Because, yeah, that's the idea And people tell me You don't have to do a dojo Because they know to talk to other people And I'm like, well, they don't always So we mentioned passion The other thing that I'm terribly passionate about That is the Agile Fluency Project And the only thing I'll say About the Agile Fluency Project Is about the way teams master agility And teams master agility over time And teams master the type of agility That they need in their environment And in mastering agility Their relationship to value changes Your team's relationship to value changes As you master agility Because first you master focusing on value When you know how to focus on value You can master delivering value When you master delivering value If you have the need You can go on and master optimizing value So what we're talking about here Is focusing on value Which could be the start of your journey On the Agile Fluency Pathway So I just wanted to mention I'm very passionate about that You can check out the Agile Fluency Project Which is a non-profit group That I'm a part of To learn more about Agile Fluency And I am writing a book on Agile Fluency Because I'm so passionate about it Right now you have to judge it by the cover Because that's all that's there right now You have to judge this book by the cover The name is Unleashing Value And if you want to hear more about it There's a URL here That you can visit to sign up to hear more about it Or you can give me your business card Or just talk to me, I'm around I told you we'd show you the discount code again If you want to buy Ellen's book It's on this slide as well It's right here He said May The first iteration should be out by May The MVP iteration should be out by May All right I think time is up We really had a good time Had a lot of fun with you guys Well, enjoy the conference I'm speaking again tomorrow I think But I'm speaking about $8 a moment So if you think about that I can't wait to hear that talk I really can't So thank you very much for coming Enjoy the rest of the conference And goodbye Thank you guys You happy?