 Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to exotic wine travel. I'm your host Matthew Horky We're doing something a little bit different right now with the With the way the world is these days So we're gonna have a little chat about the future of wine communication And I thought it'd be great to have somebody I call a friend somebody I've known now the whole time I've been in the wine industry for the last five years Paul Caputo he used to be an importer you know in the wine bar and now he has his own Content website wine database called Vinerandom. So thanks. Thanks for being on Yeah, cheers Matt. Thank you for for inviting me. It's um It's obviously a brave new world where we're about to step into as soon Yeah, it's already funny I think we're just gonna kind of dive right into it if guys if you have questions put it in the description box the comment section will answer them We already seen that wine Media communication is changing. Look at all the online wine tastings and stuff like that. What the We're what is the actual future? We're both doing content media. What actually is the future? What's gonna work moving forward? Great great question. I mean I would have never dreamed of doing This kind of video even you know two months ago and I'm already I'm finding that my my calendar is Is clogging up with opportunities to talk to people all over the world. It's great obviously but you know already are we Are we at risk of becoming bored of watching people's head and shoulders? You know intruding into our facebook Actually, if you know, I don't think I think just maybe In wine nobody's got we haven't all get it right because if you look still the most some of the most successful channels on YouTube They all started and maybe still are are just face to the camera channels Not every single one but some a lot of the a lot of the really really big you to two channels are still just face to camera. So Right, okay, I mean for me as a writer first and foremost I would say now these days It's you know, it's a strange medium for me and I'm having to ask myself. What am I trying to do? I what am I really trying to achieve with it all? because it's Yeah, it's Well, you just did one you just did one so tell me what what were the challenges? What did how did you feel actually doing you just did a call with the swap the consortia suave right? Yeah, I mean it was you know loads of lessons from that really about what life might be like for us First of all, I'm used to I'm used to sitting down and writing and giving my opinion. So In hosting one. I found myself, you know, I was a moderator. I gotta sit back I've got it like shut up really and let other people speak and you know, sometimes I'm sitting there thinking now That was cool point. I should have said that I could that was my moment That was like the I knew the answer to that I just asked out to keep the show running So there's a you know, it's different from an authority perspective. I Think for new like we're talking about the new tastings and stuff I thought from what I saw you doing it I could knowing you I could tell you were kind of uncomfortable during it And I've seen it with a lot of people that are doing the online tastings and it's a lot people realize It's a lot you got to moderate comments. You got to ask questions. You got to keep people engaged You have the whole tech stuff. It's really difficult Yeah, I mean it is difficult and obviously You know, the show is only as good as your ability to control You know all the all the dials, you know and deal with people's crappy microphones and crappy internet connection And it's you know, it can be seriously off-putting and you you know, you can find yourself sitting there Broadcasting to the world claiming to be an expert or a You know or someone with good opinions on something and you just look like a prat. So it's No, it's true I mean I I I'm on a lot to support people and there's some good points being across now I haven't found many people that have ever really really gotten it to a hundred percent, right? unfortunately The the the audience is interesting as well For these kind of things because you could you can never really tell who's super interested in in The content you're putting out versus who's interested in just seeing what you're like, you know my my various Social media channels are full of people that I don't really know that well. Many have never met me Could could be a little bit of curiosity just to see who I am and what I'm like You know, you always have a different impression of someone from there from their digital work than when you actually meet them. So I think one You're right and what I think what most people most people kind of throw something up there, but Haven't really built the audience yet. I think the best for me firstly the best that I saw who's doing virtual tastings 20 years ago was Gary Vaynerchuk at one library TV because of course his parents owned his owned a Wine a wine store So he's sending out packs of secret wines and then doing a show and for people to taste along with him Now he was doing that after he'd already built up the audience Yeah, I mean and that's a That's a crucial point because so many of these concepts only really work when you've got a big audience That's just big dedicated not big dedicated, you don't have to have a big audience a dedicated one Yeah, yeah true. I think my audience on My vine around vine around and page isn't particularly big But the engagement the engagements Average as a result But my face my personal page my first personal Facebook page is a little bit busier and the engagement as a result is is much better So that again is something you really got to take into account when you when you're trying to measure your performance or measure whether or not something was a success because At the at the end of the day you still at the mercy of some of these algorithms, so yeah I mean and how do you even how you even make how do you how do you measure? How do wineries measure? How do you measure what is actually successful? I'll tell you go ahead. I give you a Real a very real thing. So we did actually a tasting Not even not virtual. This was months ago Just a tasting of wines in a wine club that actually our first wine club I thought I really believed in and it really there weren't a lot of views anything. I was really open on the video I said I said I'm thinking about becoming an affiliate. I like some of the wines Okay, so I am you can use the code if you want didn't really get a ton of views, but it's been moving wine Yeah, so it's yeah, I mean So how do you measure? How could I I've known I actually felt bad sharing that with the club But then in the end it actually turned out into a result So you're an influencer, I guess I don't think nobody wants to look at this mug I don't think I can be an influencer plus our social media numbers aren't high enough. I would think Yeah, I remember I asked somebody how they thought my One of my videos went and they said yes, very, you know, wonderful wonderful face for radio That's right Thank you very much was the feet. So was a feedback. That's the thing like how do you know if it was a success or not? I Think you you have a feeling don't you? You know, you know yourself whether you Feel like you've sounded like an idiot or you know whether the audio quality is good or bad You know, you can see Especially when you do it on Facebook, you can see how many people are watching You know, you know, but but at the same time you I think it's important to try and You know step away from From thinking too much about those metrics because otherwise you just end up, you know, you don't really get into the work and you just Produce rubbish basically because you're too concerned about you're too busy concerned about the numbers and the metrics And your brain drifts away from creating decent work. I like I like I was like the Honestly, I was like it's really hard. I like the advice of you. Do you don't create your document? Yeah, you simply don't want Gary Vaynerchuk. Yeah. Yes, you just document what's happening, but it's hard. It's hard when people want to see you've got to be you have to be so self-aware because You know you Not only have you got to be arrogant enough to think that what you're doing what you're documenting is is worth everybody else's time You you you've also got to actually be right about it, you know And this this is one of my big issues with a lot of influencers You know, oh, yes pictures are nice Right sometimes But you know what up, you know, do we really want An endless feed of what someone's doing? I mean we could say that about this conversation, right? Yeah, no I Going on that is so funny because uh, I'm actually We're not influencers. We're not influenced. We're not paid to do posts plus our social media is not big enough Like for instance, a partner sure is she doesn't want to To have those kind of photos So we're kind of in between and I see pros and cons like you say I've been through been on trips with some with some and sometimes I don't know how much they actually know about wine some I actually have been pretty impressed with With the knowledge and then it's uh, like you said Is that are they really effective? influencers, yeah How do the people measure it? I mean for me I you know as a wine writer trying to um You know make his way in a in a very difficult world where it's not easy to find any paid column space and You know painfully aware that you probably got to build your own business first And provide an endless amount of value just so you can write write a column that somebody reads um You know influencers are a bit of an irritating concept for me to be honest But you know they serve a purpose and if If the their metrics can be proved You know if their results can be proved with so many from what I understand can't be proved Um, then then great. Yeah. I mean why would a winery or a wine retail shop? Not enlist the help of an influencer In order to you know gain more exposure I think From what I've seen I think the influences in the wine space are far less Evolved um than influences in other sectors Uh, you know I'm not sure something that I could actually measure Let's change my thoughts So I remember I told uh, we were talking about this one night actually in pulia On the rooftop. I was at a the wine writers symposium for what the symposium of professional wine writers at napa valley happens every year They pay 30 they paid the fellowship for 30 people. So I was selected I was there they have that year, uh, steven spur was speaking was the main speaker. They've had parker speak I mean they have some really serious people and One of the panelists mentioned influencer and all the writers in the crowd just moan And uh, I really wanted to ask them. I should have said something. I really wanted to ask them I wanted to say what is the difference a between an influencer's revenue model in your magazines That's that's just a question I wanted to pose. So I wasn't really opposed to it, but Last year it was a flip side something that changed my my opinion completely. I'd like to get your thoughts on this So you were you won the melissima blog award For what category we were in competing categories you were uh for literary Right editorial Editorial. Yeah But I was editorial I wasn't so I had to do the public vote. So I had to ask people I had to ask people to vote for me to win And this the same thing last year I was shortlisted and I didn't and last year I said I don't want to do the stupid thing asking for votes I really didn't want to do it And uh our friend fabian fabian was like just do it just do it. So I Last year I was up against a pretty big influencer Actually, I was in the same category with two And I didn't you have a whole week to vote and I didn't push for votes until the third day And I ended up finishing Serena ended up finishing second And we weren't even pushing her and this year I was also in a category with an influence Instagram influencer that had huge numbers And I was actually a little bit worried, but I said, okay, you know what I'm gonna I'm gonna push I'm gonna ask for votes publish things on our website or social media and I ended up winning and the the influencer she finished fifth Yeah, I mean So is that depressing? I mean, you know, we haven't actually mentioned whether or not the work was any good It's basically a question of how many numbers each person had in order to secure enough votes So for me, this is one of my issues with the whole Influencer circle, which is it it simply comes down to numbers and that's you know, that's That's fine. Right. That's how that's how business works results are all that matters at the end of the day, but I suppose The the kind of wine writing that I like to do and the kind of wine writing that maybe I I see myself taking forward in the future and Has slightly more of an artistic Nature about it, you know, I want to write about stuff that's interesting to me and And often that's a bit more obscure And often nobody nobody has any clue what the grape is or the producer is or even, you know I mean you you focus in on Armenia a lot, you know, most people don't even know where Armenia is so You know That kind of stuff can get squashed a bit when when the the focus becomes just about So you're saying this there's no there's no market for it at all. Do you think there's no market for it? Is that why though? No, I there's definitely a market, but I think for now at the moment it's wine writing wine journalism wine criticism and pr and and Everything to do with wine communications just lumped in this in this big blob together. I think They they are hugely different They're hugely different in in what they set out to achieve But as a wine writer who needs You know who needs access to things and need access to wineries and to wines and to people and events You know, I I have to essentially compete with you know somebody Who probably isn't really that interested in the grape or the wine, but they do have 200,000 Instagram followers and they you know In basic numbers they Just by posting a picture of them gunning with a glass You know that pretty much in terms of in terms of digital success of their work that puts What I do to shame over the course of and it's maybe take me a week to do what I've done that's the That's the whole case and then it's the argument seriously just thinking about that's the argument of If you want to write and be 100 independent, then why do you need? Like access to be to to be on those press trips and everything not you for example, but this is a bigger picture This is the bigger thing for everybody Yeah, I mean and this I think this is what Anybody looking to get into wine writing Or even, you know even now established wine writers already They are grappling with this question about where Do they sit exactly in this new media landscape? I think there was a fabulous conversation Going on on twitter a few weeks ago. I can't remember who it was between but it but somebody posed the question Who do you Seek to serve in your work, you know ask yourself at the core of everything Who is it you're trying to you're trying to serve do you serve the consumer or do you serve the producer? You know already great question, but somebody then somebody else chimed in with well, I seek to serve myself actually um But it but you know whether or not you are They he was actually right actually he was right in the in the midst of everything that guy was He got a load of a twitch abuse as you would expect of course You know, but I think You know Do you as a Are you there as a support for the producer or as a support for the consumer? And I think some of the people who've Probably had the most successful careers as wine writers certainly You know in the last decade or so Have have served the the consumer, you know, you can you can look at Robert Parker and you can look at the You know Genesis Robinson, I suppose although she probably slightly Um straddles the fence a bit, but you know that certainly the The group of of writers that have come through parkers publication no They've served the consumer and and as a result they've they've been required to be to be very strict about Um, you know, they're they're independence You can't just accept press strips But I don't know how many people can be Independent independent in writing In wine writing I mean, this is something I throw around with myself. I mean, do I do I even want to be independent? You know, yeah, okay If if I have a subscription base of 50 000 people who who Are interested only in scores and they value they value the The 91 points over the the 90 points and they want to be they will absolutely trust and faith that that there is Zero compromise in that score and it is that and it it's been allocated to the best of the taster's opinion at the time um Then yeah, that you know, that's something that You know, you've got to do and you've got to show and that's how you can That's how you're going to make your money. It's it's really I can tell you for independent for when we started We were 100 independent hundred. Oh, like The first uh, especially our last whiteboard cracking Croatian when I bought all the wines to taste through I paid for all the tastings to go through I mean hardcore and it's so funny. I get a I remember getting a review in jances robinson.com and they like questioned They questioned one thing. I was like, this is 100 independent on the flip side. I found In order to have knowledge to create content to write that Not being independent being on press trips and stuff. I've got access to weight Obviously you get access to humongous number of wines that you can taste you can compare You go places like for instance last couple years. I've been to I've been going to the duro. You can't go to the duro You can't go into the ketas into into the duro unless you're in The wine industry in some way she had performed So yeah, yeah, so I mean You have to be big and famous before you can get access and you can't be big and famous unless you get access so That is certainly a challenge for young writers trying to break in Well, I think the lack of the lack of paid column space is obviously another big barrier to entry You know, and I think I think because it's such a notoriously Difficult space a lot of people hedge their bets right so they They don't really say what they think because they can't because You know next next month or next year. They may have to be working in a different area of the trade No, it's very It's it's very tough. I mean are you uh, you would you call yourself a wine writer or an influencer or Something in between. I think a communicator. We're not we're not definitely not big enough social media audience to be influencer Nobody wants to see no way wants to pay for this mug Uh, I do find that, you know these days these days, uh, we're on we're on press trips a lot We are on um We're on we're getting we get lots and lots of samples to evaluate And then I can see where it can become a real problem for people Say like are they serving the consumer? Are they serving the producer? What I do and uh, I'm not 100 percent perfect on it But I've been trying to do the best I possibly can is for instance for for on a trip I I do make sure that produce some kind of content video or article What's going to be about something that I like I want to like You know, I you know, I just watched uh, roberts Joseph's, you know, one of his podcasts with editors. You know, I mean, you can't always be about the good It's got to be about the bad too Uh-huh. So I actually have been thinking about that recently the last couple months actually thinking about that, uh But I mean that's very difficult, right? Yeah, it's really There is clearly a So for instance, uh for all our samples, I score all of them in vavino I don't write all about about them on our website Uh, but I write about the good ones on the website the ones that I I really think they recommend I'm behind so if you read the anything on our site, that's something that I really believe in vavino I I put everything in a hey, I had a pretty famous pretty powerful man from uh from Croatia actually Believe some pretty nasty comments on one of my scores of one of his wines It happens a lot actually happens a lot. I get a lot of emails stuff like that, but Yeah, well, you know, as as you know parka parka was always getting uh producers You know messaging him saying that they don't agree with this scores I actually thought I actually when the scores was good. We're good. Of course. I actually thought though recently Do I need to be a little bit more? Should I also write about things that are not be a little bit more critical? So speaking, but maybe and maybe not maybe not maybe that's not The way but There are things that people obviously have to think about I think I get more upset obviously When uh, I'm on Press trips and you hear kind of the old guard complain about the new guard or influencers But then sometimes when they go back they're not producing any content about the trip and not writing about the trip and then I'm thinking so why are you complaining about Not getting more invitations Yeah being on more trips I mean that is something that I think about a lot actually because You know, you're invited on a trip and You say yes, obviously Um, or at least I you know, I do because I don't currently have anything that I would call a conflict of interest. So I say yes Um, but you know, there is the implication that you're required to to produce some content and it's not called an article now It's not write an article. It's produce content. And so, you know, I You know, especially when I go with you and Fabian, you know, and you guys get all your posh cameras out And you do all your drone flying and I'm thinking Not me Fabian not me Fabian You know, you're you're like flying providing Panoramic aerial views of the terrain and everything and this is clearly going to be good content And I'm sitting there thinking oh, I'm going to write about the I'm going to write about the seafood here I think you're genius like I'm you know Clutching for a story sometimes when there isn't one um out and that you feel obliged and compelled to um To do something to write something I've heard. Sorry, Matt. Go ahead. Go ahead. Just to embellish further. So one additional little um You know a bit of work you can do is start documenting Documenting your trip all over social media And then of course you are back into this circle of numbers and engagement with your posts and you know Round and round the circle goes I don't So funny, but where's the business model in this? Yeah, that's that's the that's the hard thing That is the difficult thing but uh, yeah, I think what you have up against You're up against so I do this full time. I do I have no side job. I do this full time uh You're always up against um Other writers are up against, you know, most people on the trips are doing it part-time They write an article here or there Or in influence either maybe some some people are doing it full time Maybe some people are not they're just doing it kind of Half the time so that makes it difficult to Yeah, I mean obviously there's a a mini bit of competition. I assume with with various people, you know, who's Who's got the Who's got the authority to be commenting on various places or producers? Um That's I have to catch myself I I feel pretty indignant sometimes and then I have to have to catch myself because I haven't really been doing this for a whole lot of time I'm really thankful for everything that's happened. I mean Really, I'm really super thankful, but I do get indignant sometimes when I see uh Like maybe more kind of famous Writers or maybe even mw's or whatever write about uh places we're quite familiar with and we travel full time So we're we're really in the thick of it Writing some of these articles or getting on some of these trips. I I catch but I always have to catch myself That's exactly what that's exactly what I complain about Yeah, well, it's it's it's hard then to be in golf by then Yeah, but I'm sure you know It will happen to you on the other side, right? As you say I know someone who knows more about something than you. Yeah, of course There's always someone who's prepared to tell you so that's why I caught that's why I catch myself We wrote about areas that we like of interest right now. I'm writing about shit enough to pop and I don't have I don't have I I can't recall I've tasted a lot of shit enough to pop last year was there tasted hundreds of 16s 15s uh Thanks to our friend michelle blanc who invited me over there this year I'm writing about the new videos, but I don't have a roll of decks of 30 years of vintages like producer by producer So that's why I have to catch myself to and not be indignant about About feeling sour Yeah, but I understand what you're saying I mean recently I was on the the end of a little bit of stick really because you know, it's certainly the last year or so last two years now that I'm completely uh free of Of business ties, you know to to to where I live You know, it can it can feel like I've just popped up out of nowhere and you know, who's this guy What authority has he got to be pronouncing on this and that? but actually You know that yeah, that's true, but also I've I've been doing this for 10 years Um since since I since I left university. I've been in the wine trade and and so Because I started at a time when the demise of wine publications and and column space Uh, you know we're starting I I feel a little bit like well blogging was the only platform that was available to me But I'm looked I'm now looked in this sort of slightly um slightly derogatory, you know stigmatized category of of your just a blogger there's real wine writers and then there's just bloggers I think like Jesus I've been doing I've been doing this every day for 10 years like More than a blogger me I actually don't get uh I don't get as upset when people maybe just will say just blogger, but I think from my point of view just I I actually looked to serve the the uh the crowd or followers basically so I can't go in for instance, uh, let's say like I Example I just use shut enough to pop I can tell the people that follow us They follow us for reasons. So I'm going to talk to them about shut off the bomb For instance, I guess if I guess if uh Some ron specialist doesn't want to read my they're not going to read my stuff anyway Yeah, well, I mean, so do you do you find it helpful to not pigeonhole your audience as either consumers or um You know all the wine trade So can you clarify the question? Sorry? I was I yeah, so I mean when you when you said there before You seek to serve your audience, right? Whereas I previously had articulated it as You know, do you seek to serve the the consumer or the or the producer or the the trade so Do you find it more? Do you find it helpful not to make that distinction and actually You serve people that follow your page and your work I think I think uh, maybe maybe it's a mistake of mine that I haven't made the I haven't distinguished the two but I do lump it two together because There's some dedicated readers everything from all actually a big a big chunk is retirees actually I just want to learn about new stuff that I've got stuff to but also winemakers follow us especially actually from the odd regions and they kind of want to know what's happening in the in the These new regions and I've also got for a stylish winemakers curious about what's happening in Eastern Europe or Mexico and all these weird things and then uh So yeah, I guess I just Just create in my own voice at this point in time Uh-huh. Do you do you have a do you have a big long-term view of Of the business model and what you're actually trying to do or or you I I actually actually think that honestly For we will do some side things as well, but as the website goes it's kind of what I see obviously just to build the audience more and more and more Like for us what we are off the website is uh, it's basically it's just affiliates And we always state it very very clear really really clear. It's at the bottom of everything I even state on the bottom if uh, if I was on a trip if I was on a press trip Or if I did everything independent because we still last year was in Germany for a month But it was all accommodation. Everything was on me visits. Everything was on me producers obviously were nice enough to let me in and Taste old vintages or give me a sample or two, but I state that really clearly and then for youtube. It's uh I'm on adsense. So it's youtube ad revenue. I'm not taking there was two sponsored videos and we we made No one I've only got paid for one. I it's very clear at the I we made a whole This is brought to you by yada yada yada Yeah, I think that some sort of blending of You know blending of business models like that is probably the way Things are gonna have to happen, you know, well the cantor's doing odd already Yeah, you know Yeah, you know, it's sponsored content is obviously Not new publications media companies have been doing that for For a few years now, but I think at the individual level Um because this there's still You know, most people Operating like this are still freelancers, you know, they're they're an individual Person first before there are a business in a brand, right? So I think And I think it's difficult for people to Have such a long-term view of what they're trying to achieve when everything is so unstable Yeah, you know, and that was before this This this lockdown and the fact that you know a lot of wineries and a lot of wine stuff's gonna not You know not make it through this phase sadly I I actually get people all the time asking, you know, like what the heck we're doing and stuff like that I think you're right. You have to have long-term focus. I looked at it. I looked at it as I guess it's the same thing when I was a practicing chiropractor and I eventually had a very successful practice but first of all, I went to school for undergrad for four years and then graduate school for another four so Well, America's a doctorate. So you're in school for eight years and I kind of spent a couple years learning what through the ropes where you Were it was just crap. I looked the same thing when we started EWT the first couple years I was paying for everything myself was almost like school Now I'm still continuously learning learning learning and biting the bullet a little bit for Longer-term reward Yeah, and I think As a result, you're probably painfully aware of the importance of networks you know in that scenario and I think Coming back to independence It's very difficult to build a network and yet You know, it's a build a network and not be clear In the short term, how are you going to achieve the the long term? Because the wine industry the wine industry is archaic in a way. It's all it's all it's 100% relationship Well, that's what makes wine so great anyway, right? Relationships sharing with friends family and that's how the business is It's it's I would have to say be pretty darn difficult to be 100% independent Unless you're obscenely wealthy because now the prices of reference wines are are ridiculous Um ridiculously high Yeah, I mean, yeah Well, I mean, yeah, I mean certainly Bordeaux Uh burgundy some of the you know speaking that I hate I really hate this I hate and you probably face the same thing. You've been in the industry for 10 years No, we've been in for longer, right? You've been long for longer, right? How long have you been in for? Uh, yeah, I suppose it's 12 now. So 2008. Okay, so we're into a financial crisis and So we've we've been in it full time for five now five years And then also before we were high level consumer more higher level consumers And I hate just because we're young and new some of the old guys some people think like Think we have no idea of the references and stuff I I I know I'm on trips with writers sometimes that haven't tasted a lot of references. I especially in Europe. I know a lot of people that Uh put their nose up against uh Like some wines from the new world How can you have reference if you haven't tasted like the great cabs from the HEPA for instance? Yeah, it's um, I actually get I actually got really annoyed by one writer one time and I was like, how many DRCs have you had in your life? Zero So I was like, okay, I don't want just be quiet. Don't don't talk to me like a much a five-year-old Yeah, I mean and that's the balance, isn't it because you know, you've You know how much you've had to learn to get to where you are right, but you also know Um, how far there is to go before you would feel comfortable, uh, you know talking about You know, you know, assuming assuming that you're an aspirational young man keen to make his mark in in wine communication Then you know, you know How probably how far there is to go and say same with me. That's unlimited. It's unlimited You know, but but it's difficult, isn't it? How how do you get to taste? Um, how do you get how do you do it? How do you get the knowledge required? I I actually look at the Yeah, you're right. It's you it's Access knowledge is increased exponentially if you're on if you're invited on on on media trips on press trips happens a minute It's way You learn wave the curve the learning curve is way shorter if you're on these trips and Have access to taste all these wines and visit all these estates and see things firsthand. So Yeah, I mean, so this this would obviously have been my first on-prem campaigning Bordeaux I actually what I was we were so far for everyone that doesn't watch poll I were both the molestinal blog award winners. I had to I had to ask for votes And okay, I shared that story earlier. I think and uh, you won flat out because you're a better writer That's just y'all can and uh, this would have been my first on premiere too But Bordeaux is not an area that I can Have taste love like some of the references older vintage. I love drinking old Bordeaux but I I don't know it professionally Yeah, yeah, I mean I I've sold sold Bordeaux and served Bordeaux in the bar and obviously been You know an admirer from from distance of the wines and the various appellations But but I think I was really looking forward to this this I was so bummed, you know, I It's okay to not know about areas professionally. That's what I've learned at first I thought I had to know everything but it's okay And I think one of the best pieces of advice is I have a guy that started a website in a very successful website in the Nordic countries Is read very well read. He's an he's an ex investment banker So obviously he here was tasting really really good stuff and now he's just in wine media I think just for something to do I remember him looking at me We were having a deep conversation and he said don't listen to all these writers everything So they're all insecure He's like you can't know Everything about wine. It's impossible Yeah yeah, I mean somebody Somebody gave me a couple of people recently have given me some advice which which is to um To specialize become an absolute world-renowned expert in one smaller area and You know use that to launch yourself And I think that is obviously sound advice. It's very difficult to to argue with that personally. I find that a bit Challenging because you know, I feel like if I'm working for myself if I'm freelance, you know, if I'm having to really build my way around You know If I'm having to make sacrifices to stay in this industry that I love and do the do things the way I want to do it Then I should be at least allowed to pick and choose and go where my interests take me on any given day But obviously that's probably not sensible advice So italy has obviously become my my Fall back area where I'll I honestly think because I've questioned that for ourselves obviously become kind of more specialist in uh eastern europe That's what people know us mainly for even though I'm in Italy by eight times a year. I'm in portugal every year uh california often but Spain is a blind spot. I love spanish one. I'm not there very often Uh, I think youtube still you know for website for kind of our books and stuff. Maybe specializations. Okay I think for youtube it doesn't matter Yeah, that's just that's just my thoughts just about feeding the content machine. That's that's just my thoughts. I think that's And I I've I've stuck with you. I've stuck with youtube from the beginning even though Even though my channel is so funny when I tell people I'm like Actually, we're one of the bigger wine channels channels and why Although it doesn't mean anything in the the grand scheme of youtube But I've always thought And I've heard other prominent critics talk about this if somebody With video if somebody could really really get it figured out they could be Really supremely successful and influential Yeah, well there's that word again influential You know, yeah In the same way you have to specialize in an area probably at first You probably have to specialize in a In a delivery method For me, it's not video video is definitely not my thing, but I could You know writing is my thing, but I I could maybe Invisage some audio, you know podcasting. That's probably something Especially now that I can't it looks like I'm not going to be able to travel for 12 months. Maybe more Which is obviously a complete disaster Probably podcasting is a is a method I might look at Personally Just to elaborate. Sorry in terms of in terms of How How do you do this now in the future? How do you get in? How do you break in? How do you? You know, if there is anything to break into What do you do? I mean, I think I've taken the view that It has You have to add some Value and and some people are amazing writers Whatever they write will you know go viral and you know, that's great. Look you then Some people, you know, as you know, can achieve that with video. Some people can achieve that with audio But I think for me, I I'm trying to to add some value through my been around them platform, which is obviously A very detailed database of of appellations and grapes and You know the relationship between them and the producers and the wines A long way to go obviously, but it but I do feel that That apart from contributing to my own knowledge and education Um, because it provides some sort of structure for me. I think can be useful to someone else, you know growing up Growing up and studying wine. I couldn't just there was never any way you could just type in You know got a gun again and find out what you want to find out and see everyone who's making it. Yeah That's my that's my little plan. Well, I don't think anybody's got it 100 figured out. That's that's That's the biggest thing, right Yeah, and that's why that that's why this conversation is so interesting and can take you to so many different places because I think it's clear Nobody's really got the answer Even if they had it, it's you know, probably no longer relevant because the technologies are shifting so quickly now Um, I think I've learned more and seen more in the last 18 months than I saw in the You know 10 years previous What do you mean what would you mean learn and see more just just learning And and witnessing the way people are utilizing different technologies Different different approaches both to to content As a product, you know, as a marketable product and content as As expression, I mean certainly some of the best some of the wine writing I love most is is probably more on the You know the the memoir and the the artistic The artistic side of things rather than being I'd like I liked your opinion the other day. You said I'm just going to go so niche and in hardcore that my audience will get into zero after I think I did that with Macedonia When me and Ivan I wrote a book on Macedonia. It was about 10 wines Couldn't get any couldn't get any more pointless a commercial project than that I often wonder Because I'm subscribed to for for the the the four biggest American publications wine spectator wine advocate venice suckling I have subscriptions to all four of those And I like I really enjoy like I really enjoying reading uh venice and venice and wine advocate probably the most because they're really hardcore geeky specialized But they're not the my style for our website for our videos And if we're kind of in between like geeky but trying to make wine accessible and then I'm just thinking you need to maybe Is that the way and just keep going that way? Or going more hardcore one way or the other? I think you've got to ask yourself what you You know where your passions lie and who you're If you had to trim your audience down to like three people Of your big digital audience if you had to just pick three people who would gonna who would be your your audience Who would they be? you know because I I think And then ask yourself that very difficult question of would those three people Pay you know pay for the for that content It's a good question very difficult. It's very difficult, but it's tremendous fun. Yeah Let's say Okay, I think that's actually that maybe we'll do another time. I think that's a good place to To kind of leave off and then we can do some spin-offs if people really like this If you like it put some comments down there. We'll be answering all of them too. So Uh anything else that you want? I think that's a good place to Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean I could I could The reality is I don't know the answer to to most of these questions And so I could talk all day on it. So okay, well, maybe we'll do another uh call like call like this too Or maybe get into a different subject altogether. So, uh, thanks for being on I'll put I'll put when a When this does actually go to youtube too, I'll put your website been a random and description box everything like that So people can check out. That's very important for traffic and metrics. Yes So guys if you like it, thanks for being on and if you like the video If you're watching on youtube, please subscribe to our youtube channel exotic wine travel If not follow us on facebook exotic wine travel and we will see you later