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Earlier this week we spoke to Jo Attard, a writer and activist for the international Marxist tendency, discussing questions like why it is that two bourgeois candidates were able to get through to the second round, why the left-wing candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon failed to succeed and what attitude those on the left should take towards the second round of the French elections. Should we support Macron against Le Pen as part of a Republican front or should we stand for an independent class position? All of these questions and more will be discussed in this episode of Marxist Voice, brought to you by Socialist Appeal. So today we're joined by Jo Attard. Would you like to introduce yourself Jo? Sure. I'm a writer and activist for the international Marxist tendency and I work for Marxist.com which is the main international website for the IMT. Yeah, thanks for that. First of all thanks for coming on the podcast and yeah we'll just jump straight into some questions in that case. So the last round of the elections has seen two bourgeois candidates get through to the second round yet in your recent article for Marxist.com you said that these results represent a rejection of the establishment. Why would you say that is? Well the first thing to say is superficially we're in the same position that we were in 2017. You've got a run-off between Emmanuel Macron who is the incumbent president, his party, Republican Marsh, calls itself centrist, but we've seen over the last few years it's pretty radical in its treatment of striking workers, protesting young people. It viciously oversaw the repression of the Gilles Jean movement which was a protest that initially began against a hike in fuel prices but exploded into a near insurrectionary movement that expressed the justifiable anger at Macron's government of the rich and it was put down with extreme police brutality. Dozens of young people in particular who were leading these protests ended up with their fingers blown off, their eyeballs blown out by the weapons of the riot police and the courts were turned into these revolving doors basically to send protests straight to prison. Then there was the repression of the strike movement in 2019 that was led primarily by unionized rail workers with the CGT but again expanded well beyond that. It was in response to attacks on pensions and privatizations of the state and so on. On the other hand you have Marine Le Pen who heads up National Rally which is the rebranded Front National again an absolutely clear enemy of our class, a party with a long history of racism, Islamophobia, anti-migrant policy. And this was the runoff that you had in 2017, you had the second round, Macron versus Le Pen and this time you ended up with the same thing. However, the outcome which put Macron on top with about 27% of the votes and Le Pen with about 23% it masks the reality because the point is so-called extremist candidates got over 50% of the votes and that goes for so-called extremists of the right and of the left. So on the one hand you had Le Pen with 23% she's regarded by many in France and internationally as on the extreme right. Her father was actually was a fascist. That is the political lineage of Front National although I don't think that Marine Le Pen is a fascist and we'll get into that later perhaps because that's very important in terms of determining our policy and the attitude of the French left going forward. But nevertheless, regardless as an extreme candidate you had another guy called Samour who came fourth with about 7% of the votes who basically stayed himself on the right of Le Pen with what you might call a classic throwback Front National which was just openly racist, anti-migrant, viciously chauvinistic platform but then on the left you also had Jean-Louis Mélenchon of Rebellious France François Samise increasing his vote share from the first round in 2017 coming within 1% of Le Pen and beyond that you also had a small showing by the Communist Party and a handful of small left parties. The point is if you aggregate it all what you end up with is a clear lack of enthusiasm for the establishment candidates and an increase of supports for either the extremists or you could say just as importantly none of the above because 26% of the French electorate didn't vote at all. So really if you dig under the surface what you see is a profound rejection of the status quo and the point that I would make is that the strong showing for Mélenchon who was regarded as the far left candidate he was certainly the only serious left candidate the only candidate that was recognized as presenting a left alternative to Macron or Le Pen did far better than expected Le Pen obviously came pretty close to Macron beyond that plenty of French people didn't feel that any of the candidates represented away forward so Macron despite coming first really he has reaped the consequences of his reactionary policies of the last several years a term of the sensible centre ground has taught the French that actually it's no real alternative it offers no way forward as a matter of fact I don't think very many French people were particularly impressed with Macron even the first time round although all of the bourgeois press in France and internationally sung his praises he was meant to be the great white hope of the sensible liberal centre ground against the so-called populist which as we know is just a term the bourgeois use for any candidate they don't like but his authority has completely collapsed he has no organic support whatsoever I would say he has a bit of a base amongst the most conservative layers of society and I don't mean that in terms of the most far right I mean the people who are gripping desperately onto some kind of sense of status quo and he's thoroughly discredited I'd say that he's widely hated in French society as a matter of fact so that's why I say that really the biggest takeaway from this first round is a delta stunning blow to the establishment and the last thing to point out in that regard is the complete demolition of the traditional parties and this is a tendency that had already been developing who saw it in 2017 as well but the Republicans the traditional centre-right party and their candidate Procresse got 4.8% now in the French elections if you don't make 5% you can't claim back your campaigning costs and it's brought the Republicans you know this is the party of Chirac this is the party of the goal it's brought them to the point of bankruptcy and their candidates, Procresse had to make this embarrassing plea to her supporters to send in donations via her website in order to cover the campaigning costs that she's now lost obviously I won't share many tears for her or for her party but there you are but even more dramatic was the dropping that the socialist party received they got 1.7% of the vote which is really stunning and again this is a continuation of what we saw in the last election they already had to sell their HQ their plush HQ in Paris in order to get some funds in to plug the gap in their finances after they got hammered in the last elections and this result is even worse they've been reduced to a near-relevance on the electoral map their candidates, Ildago was the Mayor of Paris and she did terribly so you have the two dominant parties of the post-war electoral landscape in France utterly destroyed in these elections and that really is a demonstration of both parties failing to manage the crisis of French capitalism foisting the consequences of that crisis onto the shoulders of the working class and being served just desert as a consequence so that's another bit of evidence for the rejection of the status quo the rejection of the establishment in these elections I guess moving on to a candidate and also a party that I think have fed slightly better than the traditional parties I'd like to talk about Melanchon in particular now obviously he failed to secure a place in the second round although to be fair he was only within a couple of percentage points of beating Le Pen what were the reasons for Melanchon and France's failure to win over Le Pen because it was a real possibility the first thing we should say is he was within 1% he was within about 500,000 votes of beating Le Pen it was an absolute hares breath away from a Macron versus Melanchon second round which of course would have electrified the situation because it meant the French people the French masses would have had a choice they would have had a clear choice between an out and out right winger in Macron and a left winger in the form of Melanchon that would have completely changed the situation it would have surely resulted in quite a lot of those non-voters being presented with an alternative perhaps giving their support to Melanchon it would have pushed Melanchon's support base to a fever bitch it would have seen a massive radicalization of the situation we'd be having a very different conversation right now it's much closer in fact than Melanchon got in 2017 where I think he got 19% of the votes so that's the kind of margin we're talking about I think there are two main reasons for why Melanchon didn't quite make it the first is down to him François Samise has moved to a more quote unquote you can't see my air quotes but a quote unquote sensible position to move to the center since 2017 it's moderated its position which has cost its support I mean, this isn't a period in French politics as I say you had the Gilles Jean followed by the big strike wave but aside from that you've also had big protests against giving more powers to the police to increase surveillance young people protesting hijab bans anti-racist protests protests against police brutality intensifying class struggle in France I would say uninterrupted really intensifying class struggle and that's not even including the pandemic which added another dimension to the situation intensified and exacerbated the social and economic crisis even more and in that context if François Samise had moved further to the left had radicalized even further and made a clear and ambiguous attack on capitalism and all of its institutions I do think that it would have had a much better chance of getting over the line I think it would have preserved more of its support because this is the thing we should say François Samise was trailing at a good 15% behind Macron for most of this rate it was only really in the last couple of weeks that it started to accelerate in its support towards the final days where it became a very close run thing so I think that at least part of the blame should fall on Mélenchon for moderating his message rather than embracing the radical mood that exists amongst French workers and youth the hunger for an alternative but I think the other reason and it's the same reason that we and our French comrades were criticizing in 2017 is down to the wrecking and splitting behavior of the small left parties actually the biggest responsibility falls on the communist party the PCF who stood a candidate against Mélenchon a guy called Woussel they got 3% of the vote which is pathetic in of itself it's a meaningless result they haven't even been able to claim back their campaign costs again but it was more than enough to ensure that Mélenchon wasn't in the second round it was more than enough to ensure that no matter what happens on the 24th the French people will have to choose between a right-winger and another right-winger and you had this really disgusting display of the communist party initially refusing to support Mélenchon and that overture was made Mélenchon tried to seek the support of the communist party refusing to endorse Mélenchon saying that he couldn't win anyway saying that he wasn't really left-wing saying that he wasn't connected organically to the unions this sort of thing and then after the first round immediately coming out to endorse Mélenchon in order to defeat the fascists as they put it so you have the unedifying display of a so-called communist party endorsing a banker having said it was impossible for a left-winger to get to the second round and ensuring that happened by standing so I think that the greatest shame the deepest shame should fall on the shoulders of the tops of the communist party and they've secured a huge amount of anger in their traditional support base for what is in my opinion an open betrayal of the French working class and of course you've had a number of other small parties parties like the the NPA parties like Worker Struggle who gained 1 or 2 percentage points between them the Greens as well stood a candidate who at one stage was hyped up as being a potential contender but ended up getting about 5% of the vote or so so again not particularly impressive the Greens are not especially left-wing as a party they're much closer to Macron in their leadership or capitalist but they have a section of their support base that is drawn to the fight against the climate crisis who could lean left who were drawn in actually by the strong anti-climate change components of Mélenchon's programme who could have made all the difference but again they're a right-wing party in my opinion or a liberal party but yes the splitting role of the small parties and in particular the role of the communist party in standing a candidate against Mélenchon coupled with Mélenchon's own mistakes I think are the reasons that they didn't make the second round yeah and I agree it's completely indefensible behaviour from those other parties you mentioned as well that the communist party leader has now miraculously backed Macron after refusing to back Mélenchon but as with the previous presidential elections back in 2017 I believe which is also between Macron and Le Pen as well we saw a whole host of left leaders and pundits and so on including our very dear friend Paul Mice and here in Britain as well call on workers and the public in general to vote for Macron as this so-called lesser evil I think we can expect to see exactly the same thing this time round we've already saw it from the communist party leader people are calling for this republican front I believe they're calling it they've already strongly implied at least that voters should back Macron stopping short of an explicit endorsement at least so yeah why is this idea of Macron as a lesser evil a mistake and will things be different this time round well the first thing we need to make very clear is that Marine Le Pen has a lot of things she's a brute, she's a reactionary she's a class enemy she's a liar and a demagogue but she's not a fascist the very fact that Zemmour felt the need to stand in order to provide a real true blue front-national just full-on racist chauvinist candidates was in response to the fact that Marine Le Pen has quite cleverly shifted her program, shifted her rhetoric quite considerably she's toned down the racism although there are still plenty of reactionary anti-migrants and nationalist policies in her program but she's toned down that side of her rhetoric to a considerable degree and what is she talking about she's talking about the cost of living crisis she's talking about fuel subsidies she's talking about easing the pressure on the poor, the working class and the low and middle classes she's talking about state incentives for bosses and business owners to increase wages she's basically taken an anti-Macron anti-establishment position which demagogically attempts to draw on the genuine anxieties of the French people in the teeth of a massive cost of living crisis and following a long period of a capitalist crisis more generally so really in a distorted way the support for Le Pen from a lot of people in France expresses the same process as the support for Mélenchon it's a desire for an alternative it's a reaction against the rotten status quo and Macron's government of the rich but it's a common trick and we saw it last time it's attempt by the bourgeois to basically threaten and bully the left threaten and bully Mélenchon supporters of the French youth into supporting the sensible, reliable respectable capitalist candidates against the against Front National or National Rally I should say they did the exact same thing last time and the reformists do this as well and we have to be very clear that even more so than in 2017 the French workers and youth have had a dose of what the sensible, lesser evil candidate means it means brutal attacks on the French working class it means brutal attacks on young people, brutal attacks on migrants we should say as well Macron has leaned hard into chauvinism, I mean he's been the one talking about islamo-leftism he's been the one that's been pushing attacks on Muslims he's the one that's been whipping up anti-migrant hysteria basically because he's trying to take a chunk of Le Pen's support base in order to shore up his diminishing base of supports so it's even more clear compared to last time that there isn't any fundamental difference between these two candidates they're both reactionary bourgeois pro-capitalist candidates it's not just a question as well of the slide into more and more national chauvinism it's not just a case of the vicious state repression that Macron's overseen his program over the last several years has involved relentless attacks on the working class it's seen privatizations, huge privatizations of the states big sacking as public sector workers attacks on pensions also pro-rich policies tax breaks for big companies liberalizing French labor laws Macron has been a clear enemy of the French working class ever since he was elected so even more so than in 2017 I think that this attempt to frighten people into backing Macron as lesser evil will be unconvincing because Macron's now tested everyone knows what Macron means and he's hated Le Pen actually isn't tested Le Pen's never been in power which is part of the reason that lots of frustrated people from the working class departments in the North in rural, deindustrialized France as well people who in the past might have supported the Communist Party are willing to take a punt on Le Pen because at least at least she's an alternative and in a distorted way that's a reflection of the experience of the last few years under Macron so I think that it's very important that the French left reject any attempt to be bullied into getting behind Macron into collaborating with the class enemy in order to stop so-called fascism which in reality is just another bourgeois right-wing politician because it's very important for the battles to come for the French left to maintain a clean banner because the battles to come are going to dwarf what we've seen in the past because no matter what the outcome on the 24th you're going to see such an intensification of an already explosive situation not only have none of the social and economic crises that gave rise to the Gilles Jean and the big strike movement in the last few years are going to get far worse with the increasing cost of living crisis the pressure of the war in Ukraine the global economic crisis it's going to be a real tinderbox in France and there's going to be class struggle such as we've never seen before and in that context it's very important that the French left keep its hands clean keep its banners clean, maintain class independence so it can be an earnest and genuine ally to the American class in struggle who we should say will be fighting whether it's against the Penn or Macron against the representatives of capitalism and what the reformist are saying what the likes of idiots such as Paul Mason are suggesting is to form an alliance of convenience with the exact same pro-capitalist candidates that are the source of all the anger we're seeing in French society it will be a disastrous mistake for the French left to endorse that position with the exact same attitude internationally we cannot touch class collaboration especially given the intense struggles we're going to see in the next period I completely agree and you mentioned that class struggle is only going to intensify and I completely agree with that as well but it seems to me that the working class at least for now are blocked on the political front perhaps you may disagree I don't know what significance the legislative elections hold for example maybe you want to touch on that how is this class anger and how is this class struggle going to be expressed if the class is blocked on the political front I know for example that they have even just in the past week there have been quite large demonstrations of the youth for example you know against these election results and against this sort of false choice basically between Macron and Le Pen so yeah maybe you could talk a bit more about what lies ahead basically for French politics in the coming period yes well you're absolutely right we're beginning to see the first tremors of the struggles to come and unsurprisingly it's starting with the youth I mean Melon Sean had the biggest cross-section of support amongst the youth which is unsurprising and just last week you had big occupations of a number of universities in particularly Sorbonne University in Paris which was a historic station ground for the revolutionary general strike in May 68 about somewhere between 800 and 1000 students took over the amphitheatre and occupied the university for 30 hours before they were viciously evicted by the police and their slogan was neither one nor the other neither Macron nor Le Pen and this really goes to show what I've been saying the French people and particularly the French youth have had a belly full of Macron and they are seeing through the demagogy they understand that there's no fundamental difference between Macron and Le Pen and their mood is for neither one nor the other and that's the same slogan that our French comrades of Revolution are using I understand their paper was starting like gangbusters at these big demonstrations full site over astonishment I wish I knew that expression in French I'd sound very clever but there were also street protests on the weekend ostensibly anti fascist protests or anti far right protest and again although the demonstration was organised ostensibly to oppose Le Pen the mood was for neither one nor the other and this is why I say that no matter what the outcome you're going to see an explosion of class struggle because Macron is hated and Le Pen also by a huge cross section of workers and youth is identified as a class enemy I mean okay a certain section are willing to take a gamble on Le Pen in the same way that a section of the American working class is willing to take a gamble on Trump because of all the years of lip service they've been paid by the Democrats and their frustration with the status quo with the establishment to shake but plenty of workers and youth understand that Le Pen is a class enemy so no matter who wins there's going to be struggle and no matter who wins either candidate ultimately will have to carry out the tasks of capitalism they're going to have to carry out attacks on the workers and youth in order to save capitalism to preserve the boss's profit in the period of crisis that we are living through during the cost of living crisis you know with inflation they're going to have to attack the terms of conditions the living standards of workers and youth they're going to have to carry on privatizing they're going to have to carry on attacking trade union rights so no matter what way they turn the French rule in class will incur class struggle and you're already starting to see it there were big demonstrations not just in Paris I believe there are about 20,000 people on the streets in the Paris area over the weekend but you also had demonstrations in Marseille say in Lyon in Alcy in other places as well so you're starting to see the early warning signs of what's to come and with regards to legislative elections I mean it is important and it could be a rallying point and it will be an important test as well for the forces of France on some ease you know it is very possible that France on some ease could do well in the legislative elections and that course will be a booster morale to the movements and I think it's all the more important in that case that at the very least the ranks of France on some ease don't give in to the mood of classical aberrationism being imposed on them by the establishment being imposed on them by the reformists and even unfortunately by Mélenchon who as you say stopped short of actually endorsing Macron but said we can give no vote to the which is fair enough but then went on to say that what we are dealing with is two evils but one evil is different from the other and we cannot give any support to the greater evil so essentially saying we have to vote for the lesser evil without saying we have to vote for the lesser evil and the rank and file of France on some ease should resist that drift they should strive for class independence so that perhaps using the results of the legislative elections you know as a rallying point they can continue to maintain their confidence and maintain their integrity and continue to be a political presence fighting alongside the working class and the battles to come so I guess finally what would you say are the tasks of socialists in France right now well the first thing I would say jumps off from the last point that I made if you look at a heat map of the first round of the French elections you'll see that the departments where Mélenchon did well are principally the suburbs of the major cities and that's very significant because that's where the working class lives it's where migrant communities live and also did very well in cities and towns with big student populations and that means two things first of all it means that France on Samise has basically replaced the old constituency of the Communist Party it's become recognised at this stage as the main rallying point for workers migrants and young people for the progressive layers of French society and that in my opinion puts paid to the pessimistic nonsense from reformist commentators in France and internationally that the French left is dead I mean it really blew my mind when the BBC I'm not saying the BBC are even remotely left but as an establishment mouthpiece it was amazing during the elections that given that Mélenchon was so close to entering the second round he was barely mentioned I went back through the coverage and there was some mention of far left candidates imagine if you got the second round it would be really embarrassing oh and also this guy we didn't mention is actually going to be taking on Macron in round two it puts paid to the nonsense that we hear that the French left is dead on the contrary the conditions for a fighting left leadership with class struggle methods a genuine alternative have never been more favourable in France there's a huge desire for an alternative as I said it's only because of the concessions by Mélenchon himself and also the wrecking behaviour of the small left parties in the Communist Party that we haven't got a straight up left versus right battle in the second round so the tasks of the French left should be defined by that mood a rejection of the establishment a rejection ultimately of capitalism the consciousness of the working class always has a lag when it comes to the level of radical change needed to transform society for their interests but nevertheless what you have is a clear mandate for a rejection of the status quo and the French left and the Marxists in France must be aware of that and they must tap into and connect with that mood and that means you can't give an inch of ground to these calls for supporting one over the other of supporting lesser evilism it means that you have to maintain an absolutely independent class position and it means that we can afford to be bold we have to be radical we have to be confident we have to articulate a genuine transformative program we have to put forward an unashamedly socialist program these big assemblies that are being thrown up by students this is only the beginning there are colleges and universities all over the country we're going to see big strike movements we're going to see big street protests I firmly believe the next few years we'll see movements we'll see strikes, we'll see protests that will dwarf even the gilet jaune which reached near-interactionary proportions and in that context if the French left if the leaders of the French left can put forward a radical program of class struggle then that will connect with the mood and the Marxists in France have to put forward a program to transform society, root and stem they have to say ultimately the reason that we've ended up with two rotten candidates is because the system itself is rotten and what we need is to tear it all down and replace it with a society managed in the interest of the working class a society where nobody will have to choose between driving from the suburbs to work or heating their home because of the cost of petrol no one will have to think twice about whether they can have two meals or three no one will have to think twice about whether they can afford to eat or feed their kids because that's the reality for millions of French people just as it's the reality for millions of people in Britain, in this country and all around the world and that mood and that reality will intensify in that context I think that the revolutionary ideas of Marxism will find a bigger record than they ever have, particularly amongst young people so I'd say that the task for the French left at large is class independence and radical class radical methods and an uncompromising program of combating whichever reactionary happens to lead the country and for the Marxist it's putting forward a bold socialist program to transform society absolutely to tear down French capitalism and replace it with socialism and to connect in particular with the young people who are going to be coming to the fore because this is the thing, you know, France is a country with a legacy of insurrection with traditions of insurrection and I think that when you combine those traditions with the magnitude of the current crisis there's really no limit to how much our ideas, the ideas of Marxism can connect with the French workers in youth so those I would say are the tasks of the day yeah so we'll leave it there today thanks very much for coming on the podcast Joe thanks for having me it's a pleasure and thanks to our listeners for tuning in to this week's episode just before you go I'd like to remind you that if you want to keep up to date with the events as they unfold in France we are posting regular news and analysis from a Marxist perspective on marxist.com so check that out, the link will be in the show notes as always and if you agree with what Joe just said about the need for Marxist leadership and the need to reject class collaborationism in favour of an independent class position then I would seriously urge any of our French listeners to get involved with Revolution the French section of the international Marxist tendency their website is marxist.org and the link will be in the show notes but indeed anywhere you are whether it's in Britain, Canada, Pakistan or elsewhere the need for Marxist leadership has never been greater we'll leave it there for this week make sure you stay tuned we've got some great episodes lined up on topics like the fall of Afghanistan and the imperialist meddling that has taken place there and also the Marxist view of morality as well, a very important philosophical question so thanks very much for listening once again and we'll see you next week for the next episode of Marxist Voice brought to you by Socialist Appeal