 Now, President Uhuru Mwegai Kenyata, together with all the N-leaders, all Nava Lai Raila Amando Odinga, will launch the signature collection for the Building Bridges Initiative tomorrow at the KICC in Nairobi. Now, this exercise is expected to end on 2nd December 2020. According to the former Dagoraji South Member of Parliament, Dennis Uwawero, who is also part of the joint chairman leading the BBI National Secretariat, he said, and I quote, we call upon those who want to see the end of corruption, ethnic antagonism, marginalization of sections of society, empowerment of youth, women and people living with disabilities to board the BBI train. But now the question is, the BBI will be accepted, rejected or refined. Tonight we discuss this and much more. Joining me in the discussion, I'm joined by Efi Shila. She is a corporate lawyer awaiting admission to the bar as an advocate. She is currently undertaking her master's in public international law at the University of Nairobi and with equal bias in sports and medical law. She works at direct line assurance, Efi Karebusana. Now, I would like to give you two minutes to address the nation, give us your stand. Now, what is your stand on how the BBI train and forces national values and its acceptance by Kenyans? Your two minutes starts now. Well, BBI is a constitutional process that inasmuch as we say we cannot adopt it now, we can't wish it away either way. So, the BBI as it is right now is a process, I can't say it's a train that's left the station, but I think it's a process that is necessary, but it needs a bit of amendments. Whether or not it will pass is another issue altogether. But my views are that if we are advocating that BBI is about inclusivity and from this onset we are leaving away voices of people that are saying, we need to be heard. How much inclusivity is this document going to bring? It's a good document, it's better than what we have if we adopt it, but is it the best that we can get? Let's give it time, let's amend it, let's make it the best that we can get. All right. Thank you very much, Efi. You may have your seat introducing next. My next panelist joining me tonight joined by Masharia Waidaka. He is a political analyst, a lawyer and environmental activist. He has been involved in community development projects and also involved in educating the public on constitutional matters to help in understanding better the BBI. Waidaka, Karigusana. I'm giving you two minutes to address the nation, give us what is your stand in regards to the BBI train and how it enforces national values and its acceptance by Kenyans. Two minutes starts now. First of all is to say thank you for having this platform and I will start by stating one thing. The thing is that we have a country that is going to be living for the next 100, 200,000 years and this country is not being folded tomorrow. It wasn't folded yesterday and we are going to be alive in the next so many years. And one of the good things about this country is that it is a democracy and the BBI process is one of the processes that make sure that our democracy continues to grow. I have always advocated for people having conversations on issues that are of key importance. One of the things that we have to understand is that the issues that are being discussed in BBI are very good. They are proper. The mind behind BBI is actually very good. The intentions are proper. But now if we look at the contents of that document we will find that there are so many issues that have to be addressed. Now there is something that we cannot do. We cannot put a timeline to public participation on such a very important issue. I believe that tomorrow's launching of the collection of signatures is premature that we should be allowed as much as we are saying that it is a democracy and everybody has a choice everybody should also be allowed to bring in their views because anyway this is a process that is going to affect everyone. We have to understand that all these people are powerful and they can influence a lot in this country but they should not be allowed to use the influence that they have to put Kenyans into a process that they have not fully accepted. So that is my stand today. Alright, thank you very much Wadlaka. You may have your seat that is there stand. Remember it is the 24th of November 2020. The time now 10 minutes past 8 a.m. We are broadcasting live from the broadcasting house here in Nairobi, Kenya. This is the stand. My name is Ram Aguko and the stand starts now. Remember to engage with us as we continue with this conversation tonight. The hashtag is the stand ke tag me at Ram Aguko and at Y254 channel that is our social media handles on Twitter. Use the hashtag the stand ke. The BBI, do we accept it? Do we reject it or do we refine it? Give us your stand as we continue with this conversation. We'll be sampling your tweets as towards the tail end of the conversation tonight. Lady and gentlemen Karibunisana. I know the person that I'm having you guys. Yes. Karibu 254. Let's start with Honorable William Samoe Ruto. There is a tweet that I would like my deregata to pull up. A tweet sent by Honorable Ruto last week. And this is what he said that the wave of COVID-19 is clearly ravaging our nation with alarming increases in infections and deaths. The pandemic is killing people including health workers while destroying livelihoods. We should stop everything and mobilize every human material and financial resources to fight. That is Honorable William Ruto. That's what he said. Now, this is what has been the question by so many Kenyans, raised by many Kenyans is that should COVID-19 be our only focus at the moment or should we stop this BBI politics? What do you think? Well, this is a very interesting tweet coming from the deputy president who we have seen has held rallies as late as last month before the whole political tone was set aside by the president. So coming now and saying that we should focus on fighting COVID is a good idea, but is it the only idea? Because you say Tanzania who are neighbors underwent an election just the other week and the US also underwent an election. It's a global pandemic COVID-19. Do we stop everything else and fight it? Now that we stopped the rallies and are concentrating on COVID-19 we have doctors who are dying. What is the government doing now that we have stopped campaign? And this BBI issue, should we put it as a pause? Last week it was called off last week and then this week it was called back again. That's politics. They call it off, the ground goes quiet, then we come back again and we are campaigning. Have we set aside structures enough to ensure that while we are campaigning against BBI or for BBI that we are keeping the measurements that are required of us to enable COVID-19 not to spread in the society because one thing is for sure COVID-19 is here with us to stay and Kenya as a country are doing close to nothing on fighting it except curfews that run from probably 10 to 4. What else is the government doing to fight COVID-19? Sherif, do we stop BBI, focus on COVID? I think when we ask that question we are going to be mixing issues and that is the whole thing that made this whole BBI process become so political. When we started the conversation about BBI let us have a history lesson right now. Let us start from 1992 when we had the first amendment of the constitution leading to a multi-party democracy. That was something that was really necessary and people went to the streets and they fought so that we could have that issue sorted out. Then we came to 2005 where we had started realizing that there are so many issues of this country, constitution-wise and politically and that is why we had the culmination of the 2005 referendum that was the north side one. When we came to the 2010 constitution the one that we have right now after so many conversations had been had so many talks people gave their views for quite a long time and that is when we came up with the 2010 constitution the best constitution that we have in this world. We started this conversation about BBI 3 years ago, 2-3 years ago after the handshake. Now we have just had this conversation for just 2 years and just 2 years. Is it a short period of time? It is a very short period of time and when we start bringing the issue of COVID-19 and mixing it up with a conversation about a constitution or change then we will be mixing up issues. Now COVID is a totally different issue BBI is a totally different issue. Now we should be talking instead of making noise and the deputy president tweeting that was a very good tweet because he now showed us how the government is unprepared about this whole COVID issue. When you bring up this COVID issue and mix up with BBI that will give this sort of we are hurrying there is a hurry that is right here we need to finish up with this and fight this. The deputy president is showing us how the government is not prepared to deal with COVID. He cannot shoot his own foot. Do we have a united government right now that is a question that I will bring back to you. Now when the deputy president and everybody else brings up the issue of COVID-19 at this time when you are talking about BBI it will be making it look like we are hurrying to run somewhere. It will make this BBI look like something that has to be done so quickly so that we finish up with either BBI and it will not allow time for proper conversation. That is what you are saying. BBI should continue COVID simultaneously with COVID issues. Fighting COVID is something that can be done. Countries are doing it. We have seen what Spain, France and all these countries are trying to do so that they can control the issue. But that doesn't mean that they are not continuing with their political conversation. Shila, are you saying BBI should continue or stop regardless of COVID? BBI should continue regardless of COVID. Because Constitution is a very important debate. We cannot say that we set aside Constitution and now focus on fighting a pandemic. A whole country focusing on fighting a pandemic and setting aside every issue just to fight a pandemic shows how inadequate that country is. BBI is equally important. We do not underestimate COVID and what it can do. But we are saying that while the government needs to fight COVID and it really needs to fight COVID we need to have a discussion on BBI and Constitution as a whole. The National Muslim Leaders Forum Chairperson Abdulahi Abdi he said this and I quote we are neither in the mental nor the financial state to amend the Constitution. Please postpone the process let us address the COVID-19 issue first. In fact the National Muslim Leaders Forum also said this tweet contrary to what we are discussing here that as Muslims we are also stunned by the high rate death of our doctors for lack of PPEs yet we want to spend over 10 billion on a document that is of no much value to our people and nation. Let's first handle this epidemic the right way BBI can wait. Hashtag Muslims reject BBI. Your thoughts? My thoughts on this it should be very clear I started by saying that the collection of signatures the launching of the collection of signatures tomorrow is totally premature because we have made where we hiring to the conversation we are talking about is a conversation about reviewing the document and looking at the problems that people have with that document because it has a lot of issues it has a very good document but it has issues that have to be looked into Now let us talk the collection of the signatures but let us continue the conversation about BBI let people's views be hard as we continue to deal with the pandemic. I am not saying that anything should stop the only thing that we should stop is the collection of signatures. Are we in the from the words of of rather the chairperson Abdullah Yabdi he said we are not in the mental or the financial state to amend the constitution. We will not the Muslim society started by saying that one they do not support IBC being appointed by political parties that was the first plan so listen to us so when they want to be listened to BBI is a conversation that should be had when they do not want to be listened to let's fight covid let's stop BBI, let's fight covid we are talking about not passing not going to a referendum right now we are talking about BBI talking about the merits and demerits of the document itself we are not talking about going to war right now passing or taking of the signatures in the 47 counties we are talking about having that conversation about BBI let's take a look at this this what they had to say during a press briefing we are talking about not passing or taking of the signatures in the 47 counties we are talking about not passing or taking of the signatures of the people who may have some reservations but that is as it is you can never be absolute at all you see when they talk to Brexit those who supported those who opposed referendum are held all over the world and they are always those who are supporting those who are opposing that is what democracy is all about as the people of Mount Kenya we do recognize our past marginalization we do recognize the gains coming from the BBI initiative and we will stand with the process that is huntable I love talking about democracy in the end yes it needs to be something that we should consider and let me quote what he said that life must continue despite the pandemic the US has just conducted the elections Tanzania just next door conducted theirs and Uganda is now at the height of elections election campaigns despite the pandemic now Kenya is no different from all those countries life must go on that's what our huntable rally is saying well he's right and wrong he's right because life must go on and this is a conversation that if we do not have now we will have to have it so we'd rather just have it now we're in the middle of a pandemic that we do not know when it will end the vaccines are just coming out and the elections that we may get the vaccines end of next year that's end of 2021 so do we want to postpone a constitutional document until 2022 that's when we begin talks around it but that does not also mean that the government is taking COVID with all the seriousness it deserves because we've seen doctors dying left right and center so if we do not take both issues with the way that they deserve then who will be there in this document when it comes because we've seen doctors dying and these are doctors that are distinguished renown the head of renal just died the other day we've seen a lot of doctors dying so if doctors are able to die then what about the common man who will just go out and support BBI without taking all the measures both of these issues are issues that we need to look at them with the way they deserve at the end of the day we may end up with a document with no one to really vote for it inasmuch as the document is important we need to talk about it there's no stopping talking about BBI but are we taking COVID with all the seriousness it deserves will Rayla and Huru be there to vote for the document with the current measures that we are taking on COVID he's saying that life must go on do you agree with that Sherry? Rayla was using bad examples to apply to this country he's talking about elections that have been scheduled through constitutions he's talking about Tanzania they were scheduled to have those elections this year US was scheduled to have the elections this year to elect a president in Tanzania the same right now Uganda is conducting it elections it's conducting campaigns and all that we know the BBI issues and everything but now what are the elections for in Kenya what are we electing how can we take a document to an election a document that first most people agree that it has issues I think he's talking about an election and he's saying that in comparison Kenya can also have a referendum a referendum for what what document you know in Tanzania they were electing a president now here you are bringing us an election to elect about a document a referendum about a document that not everybody is agreeing on let us first sit down look at this document critically open the conversations again let us open this document again correct the errors that are there actually so many lawyers will agree that there are so many drafting issues in that document there are so many ambiguities in that document an example is that IBC is going to be elected by a cabal of institutions that is we have political parties and we will have some religious bodies but which religious bodies it is not specific which religious bodies are going to be involved what political parties what is the place of the small parties like that way alliance in getting us an IBC we go about creating a youth commission what is the function of that youth commission we let the what are the functions of that youth commission what are the purposes of having that youth commission can we have something else you are talking about having a prime minister who can be fired by the president hot processes and procedures with the president use so that he can take away the prime minister we are talking about legislating or bringing legislating an official position do we really need to legislate an official position you don't support the BBI I support the spirit of the BBI but now the problem is we are hurrying it up we are hurrying it up we need changes in this country you've given different examples and I would like to just touch on just a few and one relating to the very station that we are the youth Y254 the youth of Kenyan we have a youth commission that has been proposed by the BBI you feel that is not going to be tangible enough to promote the youth agenda it will not be tangible enough to promote the youth agenda until that point when you make sure that the youth are in proper policy positions then there is no way that you are going to help them a youth commission will just be taking recommendations to the ministry and those recommendations don't have to be followed so we really need to we really need to sit down if we are talking about this youth commission let us be very specific about what that youth commission will be doing what is the responsibility of that youth commission see at 90 of the constitution states a number of commissions that are created by the constitution and these are commissions that draw their power from the constitution which is the document that binds the country so we want to sneak in the youth commission currently we have national youth council whose mandate overlaps with the current proposed youth commission so we have a national youth council that is doing virtually nothing but their vision is to ensure that the youth participate at our stakeholders in socio-economical and political roles in the country and then they have slept on that so just to cut it short you are comparing this to the council and the commission is it expected that the commission will take over thereby making the council null and void the council will no longer exist the commission will take over the proposal has not nullified the national youth commission but we are saying that the roles that are proposed overlai the roles that are currently in the national youth commission which is not working it is a dead commission anyway it is there to probably take funds of the youth and probably just mismanage them earlier you had mentioned that the BBI is a good document so you support the BBI I support the BBI I however think that it is not yet time for collection of signatures and a referendum there are finer details in the document like devolution and increasing of funds to the counties from 50 to 35% we are also talking about duma number at the moment so all our details are going to be in one document there is a proposal to amend article 31 of the constitution that talks about the right to privacy because if all your details are in one document that means if I get that one document I can transact on anything concerning a person so we have to also tighten our laws on privacy that which is talked about in the constitution and then it also talks about public asset and disposal we have seen kemri purchase equipments for millions of shillings they bloat the figures as high as the heavens and then we have a commission that was appointed just the other week public asset and disposal they are supposed to curb how far can public entities acquire public assets so there are very finer details in that document but then there are things to be talked about like the judiciary embutsman who is supposed to come and whip the judges in case they do not act rightly who is appointed by the executive how then do we get the freedom to act when you are appointed by the executive to join a judiciary how are you going to act against that arm of government it infreaches on freedom independence actually but then again remember this JSC which does the same role as the judiciary embutsman this national youth council which does the same role as the youth commission what are we trying to do are we duplicating roles here does that mean that the current bodies cannot act can we not strengthen them do we have to bring in duplicate roles for people what is the document intending to achieve in you there are finer details which you cannot wish away but there are details that leave a lot of questions to be asked and if you look at these questions that have been raised by the BBI one of them also is the winner takes it all has it been answered according to you sheriff the winner takes it all that is another issue we are talking about we are going to have first historically the only time we had a very good parliament a very independent and proactive parliament was the 2007 2013 parliament you remember how proactive it was between 2013 and this year we have been having a parliament that is whipped by the executive right left and center now you are trying to talk about you believe that the parliament has been whipped by the executive it is always whipped when the executive when the executive wants to do something most of the times we just make their declarations and everybody follows what the president wants even when we have some issues that need minds that are quite independent now we are talking about the winner takes it all remember we cannot wish this away every country that is facing issues of tribalism most of the times you will try to bring politics on a basis of ideology but at the end of the day what happens and what has historically happened in this country is that we have voted along tribal lines now tell me you have a prime minister who can be appointed by the president and fired by the president at any time we have a jubilee party which took most of the positions in parliament so the whole executive will be made of people from the same parties people from the same tribes you just whip away five of the major tribes kikuyu, kalengin and then you have an executive there is no assurance that having a prime minister position will ensure that the face of Kenya is properly seen the constitution currently says that the face of Kenya has to be seen in cabinet is that the case in point right now if you look at that cabinet as it is right now it is not what the BBI is bringing up but let us be very clear let us not just create positions without clarity let us say something like this at least the deputy prime minister has to come from the smallest of the tribes or the minority parties or something like that we will still be political beings we will still behave so let us put to make sure that we do not continue behaving as we do because just having a prime minister position and two deputy prime ministers or leader of opposition and the leader of majority does not assure kenyans that the face of Kenya will be seen in that executive you are right to reply this whole conversation stems from the fact that we have a national council that divides kenyans more than it unites kenyans and we have seen our previous elections where kenyans have accepted elections without the winner techs or whatever it is the 2002 general election was a good example of a country that was united after the elections this is because the outcome of the election would actually determine how the country moves forward there are a few comments that we would like to sample as we continue to remember the hashtag is the stand KE I'm seeing these are tweets no these are comments on Facebook who is saying munaichi hakuna maali devolved government and corruption and result in Kenya kumia muturia saying we are refining the BBI sheriff newton if I accept my life my life will be the same if I reject it will be the same sitana kupiga kura waweru wa kibod nesema reject it interesting youth must be genuine let's not be brainwashed we have jafet ratanya Peterson is saying he is watching from kenyanka I reject BBI it's not helping kumun munaichi in any way it's just creating seeds for certain people you had mentioned somewhere this is Trevor Mark George noi is saying accept because what we want is peace 100% those are some of your comments remember as I said the hashtag is the stand KE at ramaguko at Y254 channel we'll be back let's take a short break after this we'll be discussing now that BBI is being taken to the counties what next let's take this break we'll be back in a bit keep it Y254 this is the stand