 It is. It's wonderful. Here we go. It'll just come up in a wee second and then she'll let me know in the chat. So, kind of, there we go. I think we're going to be, yeah, we're good to go. So, Audrey, welcome to Creative Collins 20th Anniversary Summit, our celebration. And we're so delighted you had the time today to join us for a conversation. As you know, we had you in our podcast very recently and we know that you have been a huge advocate and so supportive of what Creative Commons is all about. So, without much further ado, I'd love to hand the floor to you to hear your presentation and we'll take some questions once we have the presentation. So thank you, Audrey. Over to you. Okay, thank you. Good local time, everyone. I'm really, really happy to be here virtually at a summit to support the Creative Commons. And this is my slides. I hope I got an image right. This is a global summit. So, this is about digital social innovation, which is, you know, everyone's business with everyone's help digitally. And this is how Taiwan counted the pandemic. Yesterday were another zero COVID day so far with no lockdowns and also counter the infodemic with no takedowns. And I like to share a few just anecdotes during not just the pandemic, but also the times of Taiwan's post sunflower movement, digital democracy. And I look forward to the Q&A and the fireside chat. Now, social innovation depends on, in my opinion, three pillars and that's fast, fair and fun. The fast part is about collective intelligence. It's about a public infrastructure in the digital space that people can contribute signal over noise very easily and quickly. Now, in Taiwan, we've had like 25 years of this forum called the PTT, which is like Reddit, but it's not Reddit because it has no shareholders. It has no advertisers. It's just a national Taiwan University student pet project run wild for 25 years. So in 2019, December, for example, when Dr. Lee went down from Wuhan shared on their social media that there were in a close seven SARS cases in the Huanan seafood market. Although it didn't reach the globe so quickly and indeed didn't reach people in Wuhan at all. It did reach the PTT and within 24 hours, people just contributed to triage this message so that we, in the first day of 2020, began health inspections for all flight passengers coming in from Wuhan. And so this collective intelligence really served as an advanced warning system where people can contribute on this co-government, GPOV-3 space, anything that relates to public interest. So this is civic tech side, but there's also a government tech side. Now, in our central epidemic command center, we broadcast a live press conference every 2 p.m. and the ministry and the health offices answer all journalists' questions until they run out of questions every day. But it's not just journalists posing questions. Anyone can call this toll-free number 1922 and just chime in with their ideas. And chances are that very next day, 2 p.m., there will be answered. And all those answers are packaged into easy-to-share memes and so on that are Creative Commons licensed in particular by NC&D because this is about science and about the pandemic response. So, for example, last April, there was a young boy calling 1922 saying, hey, you're rationing out masks. And all I got was this pink medical mask. But all the boys in my class got navy blue mask. I do something about it. I don't want to wear pink to school. Well, the very next day, next 2 p.m., everyone wore pink. The ministry of health even said that Pink Panther was this child-hit hero. So the boy became the most hit boy in the class overnight because only he has the color that the heroes wear and the hero's hero wear. So imagine if the response was like 60 days later, then that would not make a cultural difference. Only when it's responded in the here and now with collective intelligence work to build mutual trust by trusting all the citizens, we can get some of the trust back. Now, it also helps to have social innovators working on fairness. In Taiwan, there is a movement called G0V that use open source and Creative Commons licenses to fork the government. Now fork means taking something there into a different direction without destroying what's already there, but into a different direction with the hope that it will be merged back. So, for example, G0V forked this idea of mask rationing to display the real-time availability of all the PPEs available in nearby pharmacies last February. And after noticing they did this open source implementations, I talked with the Premier and said we have to trust citizens with real-time open data. And Taiwan's national open data license is Creative Commons attribution. So using CCBuy, everyone gets the real-time updated every 30 seconds, play-by-play account of all the mask availability. So more than 100 different tools, including chatbots and voice assistants for the seeing impaired people and so on. So everyone can avoid queuing in vain, but rather just go to the pharmacy to have the mask available. And one year later, this May, the same team, the G0V team, built this very innovative one-night-two-two SMS check-in system. The idea is that we need to shorten because of the alpha and delta variance contact tracing from 24 hours into 24 minutes. So how to do that? Well, we use a QR code in the front door of every venue, but there's no app installation required even on the iPhone lock screen. You can just point your camera to it, it translates to an SMS, you hit send, and that was what, three seconds, and you're done. So this has a very good design in a multi-party security idea because the telecom only has this random code and cannot correspond that to real addresses. The venues know their random code, but unless the contact tracer asks for it, they will not hand it out. And the person doing the scanning, well, they only trust their telecom, of course. So their whereabouts is only stored in the telecoms and also in a randomized fashion. So in the multi-party design, unless all the three parties join together automatically by authorized contact tracers, individually, these pieces of information do not compromise privacy. And the entire design is co-created online. The transcript actually is Creative Commons by the G0V community. Again, this very effectively made our contact tracing work so that we can reach zero COVID very quickly. Now, also the ideas of humor over rumor also works very well because the idea of memes is that it makes the idea worth spreading well spread. So when we have, for example, people worrying about the masks effectiveness, which is an issue in other countries, or physical distancing in Siobhan, the Ministry of Health actually have this spokesperson and a team of professional comedians who are themselves public servants or work closely with public servants. Well, the participation officer, as we call them, lives physically with this dog, the Shiba Inu, a cute Shiba Inu named Zhong Chai. And so Zhong Chai would say, for example, when you're indoor, keep three Shibas away from one another, outdoor, keep two Shibas, remember to cover your mouths and nose, and what does a mask do? Well, a mask protects you against your own and washed hands. And because of this mimetic virality, as we all know the internet is built for cute cats and dogs, the scientific information reached far more people than conspiracy theories, and that's made everyone focus on the shared values and so on. And this builds on the creative commons infrastructure that we have been doing for quite a while. This is a Taiwan presidential office. It's shared on the Taiwan Digital Assets Library, the entire 3D skin, along with the dot cloud photogrammetry of the historical heritage sites, as CC models that everyone can download and remix into their games are dictionaries. National dictionaries are available under ND because they're dictionaries. And even my portraits that the professional photographers take of me, my only condition of accepting these photo shots is that they are creative commons licensed. So again, this builds on this public infrastructure in the digital space that maximizes remixing and reuse. And as a minister that practice radical transparency, everything, all the lobbyist meetings, all the journalists meetings, even internal meetings that are inter-agency data chair are available online under CC0 or public domain. And this is really helpful because not only I can remember my more than 100 meetings with 6,500 people better, it's like external memory. But it also made all the lobbyists and journalists talk to me with the position of a good enough ancestor that is to say they don't lobby for things that sacrifice other people's interests or sacrifice future generations' interests because they know that there will be in the public domain for the record forever, immediately free of copyright. So everybody tends to argue from the positions that furthers the global benefit changes the course of conversation. And this is my office, by the way, Taiwan's social innovation lab is a park. We tear down the walls, anyone can enter this park. And we also use another AGPL software. It's like a town hall, but in the digital space. So think of my office but translated online. And we use AI in this context, meaning assistive intelligence that connects people, not machines. In Polish, the GOV.TW. Again, this is not G0V now. This is GOV, so public infrastructure maintained by the state. And you're looking at a real conversation in 2015 around the UberX phenomena. People feel very differently about the sharing economy, slash gig economy, slash platform economy. But we make sure that we share the facts using open data again in creative commerce attribution and use this platform policy to ask people's feelings. And then all those feelings that resonate with one another became good ideas that we then translate into policy. So as you can see, this is a social media, but not a antisocial social media, but rather a pro-social social media. There's no reply button, so no room for tro to grow. And if you click agree on my idea that passenger liability insurance is important, you move toward me. But if you disagree, you move, well, away from me. But there's no reply button. And once you click agree or disagree, there's another sentiment for you to react. And of course, at any time, you can post your own sentiments again to release this open data for other people to resonate. So this is a shape of a pro-social social media. Of course, we table some ideological differences, but most people agree with most of their neighbors, most of the time are most of the points. So actually after three weeks of consultation, everybody said, yeah, sure, we can make multi-purpose taxis as long as they don't undercut existing meters, we should enable local temples and churches to build their own virtual Uber and so on. And that's led to a very quick, swift ratification of this crowd-sourced law or crowd law. And this is in SDG Global Goal Terms. This is the measurement of progress that is truly crowd-sourced. So I would say that this remacing culture, this infrastructure, as in freedom of software and open innovation as epitomized by the Creative Commons community is another way to think of democracy, not as a slow bit rate uploading three bits every four years, every person, which is called voting, but rather a continuous democracy that everybody can adapt democracy as a social technology to increase the bit rate so we can find the common values and based on the common values deliver open innovations. Five years ago when I became Taiwan's first digital minister, well, they asked me, what am I doing? And I'm like, oh, my work is just 1717 SDG effective partnership, 1718 reliable data, 1716 open innovation. And the HR people said, minister, nobody memorized the UN goals by their digits. So I had to translate that into poetry and I'll just read it for you now and that would conclude my 15 minutes opening remark. So my job description goes like this. When we see the internet of things, let's make it an internet of beings. When we see virtual reality, let's make it a shared reality. When we see machine learning, let's make it collaborative learning. When we see user experience, let's make it about human experience. And whenever we hear that a singularity is near, well, let's always remember the plurality is here. Thank you for listening. And thank you for sharing, Audrey. That was a beautiful ending to what is just a tour de force of a presentation. Maybe I can start. I'm just looking at the chat to let people come in. What has been your greatest learning from the pandemic? You've been in the position you were saying for five years and the challenge that you have just faced and the solutions you've talked about I'd love to know more about what you think has been the greatest learning that you've had over the past 18 years to two years. The main idea is to give no trust is to get no trust. If you trust the social sector, if you trust the people closest to the pain to come up with new innovations, then the state road changes instead of having to fix everything. We're essentially a place where jams, crowdsourcing happen. And we amplify that not best may be better practices, as I mentioned, 24 hours after each innovation happens. So it requires this commitment to agile governance of saying, okay, we were wrong 24 hours ago and here comes a better idea and fully credit the civic technologies. That has been the most important thing because if we only change course every quarter as governments often do, we will not be able to keep up with the speed of mutation of the virus. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that today you're sitting here with us and you've got zero cases of COVID zero. It's remarkable. Congratulations to that achievement because that is no mean feat. That is an incredible achievement to have done that. And to evidence with what you have just told us about, about how you did that, that 24 hours to 24 minutes, that the importance of speed for information is really something that I think we can all learn from. And I think there's some people in the chat and sitting here listening to you who are kind of wishing they were with you, you are the minister of digital able to make this change. And we're also, I think it feels very much that we're sitting in an analogue world where you're actually truly in a digital reality that's working. And maybe that's something, I mean, how are you providing the skills for people to be able to use digital? I mean, that's something that we are always kind of challenged to try about skills, mindset, governments also in mindsets in terms of how digital democracy works in practice. What could you share with us, Audrey, about your experiences? Sure. I think it boils down to two things. One is broadband as a human right and another is competence instead of literacy. So I'll expand a little bit. In Taiwan is truly a human right. Anyone, even on the tip of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high, is eligible for at least 10 megabits per second good enough for a video conference for just 15 euros a month. So there's no surcharge on the data rights. Everybody is on broadband at all times. I remember a time when I think a few months ago, someone in the quarantine space near the Yangming Mountain wrote me an email saying, minister, this took me five hours to send. I mean, this quarantine space and I cannot watch a streaming video and you committed yourself into broadband as human right. I'm suffering from a human right abuse. Do something about it. And so in just a couple of weeks, we built a new telecom relay tower near the Yangming Mountain. Of course, by that time, that person is already out of quarantine. But he made a point of driving back and measured the speed test and posting online to help me accountable. So that's our commitment. The second thing, though, is that in middle school, for example, a lot of students during our presidential debates, instead of asking them to read about the presidential debate coverage and do media literacy classes, they're invited to fact check the three presidential candidates in real time as they're doing their forum and debate. So they become producers of media, remixer of media, not just consumer of media. And many primary school are contributing to climate science by measuring the air quality and publishing it on a distributed ledger. Again, learning about data stewardship, not just analyzing whatever data other people collected. Yeah. Yeah. And that way you could buy in. You learn from doing, you know. You mentioned, I think, when you're talking about how you've led as an agile leader, which is listening, learning, and adapting. And I think agile leadership is fascinating because it's also about how you're managing change. Because, you know, and you talked about trust. I mean, how have you found managing change? You have come in and driven change. You embody kind of the digital change that we need to see in other countries in terms of how did you do it? You know, everyone turns to you, I think, and ask the question, what can we learn? And how can we bring what you have done in Taiwan to other countries in an effect? Mm-hmm. Well, most of our contributions actually require no broadband, the SMS in particular, and also the masquerading map via chatbots. And, well, it's all on GitHub and GitHub. And many jurisdictions just adapt this code and do their own thing. And I do think, though, that the key to Taiwan model is not a system of code, but rather a system of culture. And this culture, I think of the German autobahn system. I was there a year when I was 11, where there's no speed limit. But interestingly, because of the strong norm and the high competence of the drivers and the road, of course, you actually feel safer and probably is safer the faster you go. So it's swift and it's safe. So there's no forced trade-off between, you know, moving fast, but breaking things and fixing things by doing slow, right? So we can move fast and fix things if we build this what I call people-public-private partnership. It's a civil society, the social sector, the creative commons and FLOs as this community doing this fast part. But once it gains popular legitimacy, it's the state's duty to amplify this idea and then tell the private sector, okay, you've got to implement those norms as we did to the five telecom carriers. Yes, yes. Thank you so much, Roger. And now there's some things in the chat. We've got, well, John is saying competence instead of literally just change my project's key words. So you're inspiring change even in the chat. Nate said, I keep changing singular literacy to plural literacies. Might we think of competencies too? I wonder what you think about that question, Audrey, about competencies as well as literacy. Yeah, so I think so too. I mean, literacy is, of course, very important. One of the most interesting things is that what we're doing now is to build this maker mindset into not just basic, but also lifelong education. So what we're doing is instead of asking people to read the textbooks or standardize unstandardized answers or things like that, what we're doing is to ask them to build their own textbook, co-create their textbooks. So I don't think I'm writing off this idea of literacy, but rather just flipping it around and say anything that you produce as a byproduct of your learning has the potential to be the source material for somebody else learning the same thing. Think of our programming classes, for example. Almost no primary schooler learned programming from blank state. They learned from scratch, the programming environment scratch, the Lego inspired environments. And so they start by playing games essentially and then changing the Lego figure, the protagonist to look like themselves. And that's probably the first line of change. They just hit publish. And then the other students in the other schools and so on, all then look to this creative commerce license materials and then made them their textbooks. So literacy is, of course, the first step. What we're trying to decide is that we want to shorten the height of the ladder. So going from literacy to competence is a matter of minutes. Yes, yes. And I think there's a couple more. Nate has come back and said, yes, literacy seems more focused on consumption rather than producing activity. And then there's Jim, it's coming in and says, does the radical CCO transparency or CC0 transparency in meetings with journalists and lobbyists tend to decrease inequality. So that's into, does the radical transparency with journalists with the CC0 license and lobbyists tend to decrease inequality? What are your thoughts, Audrey? Yeah, it tends to increase, as I mentioned, this commitment to common purpose. So because people understand that even in the drafting stage, like the ideation stage, which is usually closed off in administrations unless you file a FOIA request, which takes ages in any jurisdiction, a freedom of information request, this is us proactively saying, okay, this is our drafting stage and we might miss something. So let me know if we missed anything. So the camera or the tape recorder or the stenographer in the same room basically stands for the entire internet. Everyone who are stakeholders to this particular conversation, even though they're not in the same room, they didn't know of this meeting, can go retroactively to look at a transcript and then just email me or post it on my forum saying, okay, this is a better idea. So it makes a positive sum game out of politics because previously we don't publish these materials, but people who are not in a room will automatically excluded. Yes, yes. And that thing about if you're excluded, then where do you get trust from that and being included is more, if you use the quote about government information, if it's not all open, then your radical openness actually builds trust and you can evidence that, which is really interesting compared to other governments where information, you have to use freedom of information request to get things and often there's barriers to having open information. So I think that's something which we certainly all can learn from Taiwan's experience of that radical openness. Is there anything in terms of that openness that you've again learned about how to do it better because you've kind of opened in for me, but you're making it even more accessible? Yeah, the most important stakeholder here is definitely the career public service. The argument I make to them is often this, look, if you have to give out information anyway because of the Freedom of Information Act, the chance of you getting the blame by redacting the wrong things and things like that are high if you go to FOIA route. But if you simply tell your system vendor saying, okay, the mask availability, well, as soon as the machine collects it, just publish it online before I even have a chance to review, then interestingly, when the data shows bias or is simply wrong, the public service gets no blame because they didn't even think about it or look at it, it's just an automated pipeline. So when there is a bias, for example, when we published a mask rationing map, we thought that we did a good job because the pharmacies allotment coincides precisely with the population center. So we think it's fair. But then the OpenStreetMap community, another Creative Commons ally pointed out, no, it's not the case. Via a legislator, they said, well, if you are in a rural place, you have to, on the same map distance, spend three hours to get to that pharmacy, but if you're in an urban area, then you spend 30 minutes. So it's not the same, even though on the map, it looks like the same distance, not everyone owns a helicopter. But because we published in real time, they were able to not just demonstrate and protest, but demonstrate as in demo, by proposing a better allocation method and preregistration, which is turned then into policy just 24 hours after. So what I'm trying to say is that without the chance of co-creation in real time API, the public service always to blame if things are wrong. But if you publish in real time, even before you had a chance to review it, well, you just invite all the trolls as the creator hugged the trolls. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And it's about, again, thinking about how openness and really can make that difference both in terms of getting information to people that's necessary, but also building that trust and bringing civil servants with you on that journey, which is really remarkable. Mary's put in something in the chat about, you know, she'd really like the injection of humour and fluency is so cool in terms of how you've got a serious message, but with the dogs that you had in that picture. How do people take that message she's asking seriously? Well, the point is not to take the message seriously. The point of memes is idea was spreading, right? So making sure that idea was spreading spread. And interestingly, in the humorous mood, it takes all the tensions off from outrage. Because without these cute dogs to share and maybe to to satirize, to ridicule it, to create commons to whatever, right? But without these, people very easily turn those energy in the more antisocial corner of social media into revenge and discrimination. So both this humour and revenge discrimination share the same energy. It's this energy of outrage of going viral, but this channels it into a place where people can then think better about how to co-create. So by itself, these memes do not co-create things, but it puts people in a mood of co-creation. Which is, you know, it takes people to a different place rather than that, you know, what you describe it, but I think it's good to hear your experiences about how humour and that whimsy helped you get a serious message across. And that's an interesting learning. Another question here, maybe the start of an answer to you about the more humor less outrage, says Jonathan, but maybe talk a little bit about the importance of what you are doing in terms of an open society. Because when we are talking about digital democracy and the debates around direct democracy and what that means, you know, we've seen the statement about open societies, the importance where digital plays in some of this. What do you think is, again, the learning that we can have about the importance of open processes within the new reality that we're existing when to support open societies? Yes. This is an excellent question. When I think of open societies, I think of plurality. That is to say instead of optimizing premature optimizations, the root of all evil. So instead of optimizing or solving any particular thing, what's important is that people understand the general principles and the toolkits. So they can apply it to whatever emergent things that happens to them that occurs to them. This is to say, instead of just a few elites getting the control of whatever machine learning algorithm or authoritarian intelligence there, which may look efficient, but it's not effective actually overall, we should make sure that the people, even the primary schoolers, feel they are competent that they can look at whatever problem they're facing, apply something that already goes 90% of the way from grads or top or something and just tweak a few parameters and make everyone around them slide better. I believe this is what an open society means and this is what I think of when I think of the word democratization. It's cheaper and easier to access as this century's use of democratization seems to me, but last century's use of democratization of people coming to terms of making decisions that affects them together. What is fascinating, Audrey, you talk about schools, you talk about children, you touched a little bit and you talk about intergenerational maybe we could talk a little bit more about intergenerational justice because what you're describing is about, not just about thinking about the present and responsibilities of governance but also thinking about the future and I think that is a real testament to you and your leadership. That's right. I think the next generation comes after seven generations they don't have a vote in traditionally representative democracy they tend to be discounted even people who are under 18 are discounted if you just count the votes and in Taiwan we have this as I mentioned participation officers who in addition of rolling out cute dog memes are in charge of holding collaborative meetings with people who petition online so anyone who collect 5000 signatures from very young people that works from residents not necessarily citizens for the future humanity and the environments as long as they got 5000 signatures can't just like a legislative interpolation collaborate point by point with the ministers and the participation officers and indeed more than one quarter of our citizen initiatives this way on the join the GOV the TW platform were started by people who are not adults who are under 18 like a very popular one to ban plastic straws from the our national drink bubble tea that came from a 17 year old girl really? Oh why? We've had a huge plastic straw to be in the UK as well which is probably stemmed from that 17 year old talking about you know to think about practical ways to save the environment maybe this is a nice way to think about how what you've learned with COVID and dealing with the COVID crisis how are you applying that now to the climate emergency in Taiwan? What are the things that you're doing? Yeah in Taiwan every year we hold this annual event called the presidential hackathon instead of a more shorter hackathon that runs only a couple of days this runs three months so a very long marathon hackathon and what this entails is that the five champions out of like more than 200 teams each get a trophy from our president Dr. Tsai Ing-wen and this trophy shape of Taiwan is a micro projector if it turn it on it projects Dr. Tsai Ing-wen handing you the trophy so it's very meta but this trophy means that the president is committed as a presidential platform whatever your idea that has worked in a pilot study in the three months time we're committed to in the next 12 months make it a national policy and last year all the five champions work on climate action obviously it's important thing in Taiwan we've got for example people using augmented reality to pre-commit the entire community into voluntarily planting and maintaining the trace in their neighborhood we've got people inventing apps that push notifies you when there could be a heat damage to you because of the climate change and inspire you to take whatever bottles you have on the nearby drinking places is like a Pokemon game you can checking collect coins and then learn about you know not creating new plastic waste and also local social entrepreneurs and things like that so basically each one have to correspond to one or more of the sustainable goals and we use a new voting method called quadratic votes so nobody loses so people express their preferences and the best teams get commitments but the teams that didn't make the cuts eventually join the teams that did make the cuts to make those policies work so it's totally collaborative exactly right that's fast so the people that maybe didn't as you say make the cut are also then participating in making the change yes because the quadratic voting shows the synergies between the projects yes I'm very curious I'm just seeing if there's any more questions coming up in the chat but you mentioned participatory officers and you mentioned that when someone wants to make a change they could do a petition with just 1000 signatures so I'm just in many other democracies the bars are higher and also we don't have people who are actively supporting the participation curious to know how what's the qualification to be a participatory officer and how does that work in practice sure well we've listened about it in a national regulation and you're free to copy it in your jurisdiction right so the directions of participation officers said that the PO's who are always under a direct supervision of a deputy agency head or chief information officer can assign their own personnel flexibly to undertake the duty right so the idea is that this lateral communication learning environment where you're comfortable with stepping out of your comfort zone is the main requirement I think for example the collaborative design of the tax filing experience those breakout conversations which we hold face to face are chaired by people in say the ocean affairs council that the sea patrols ocean patrols who have nothing to do with the ministry of finance but they also file their taxes so while being a public servant they firmly take the citizen side when doing public deliberations and town halls because they're not of that particular agency but when the times come that we talk about our ocean policy to enable surfing in other amateur fishing activities well it's the minister of finance participation officer holding those discussions and who of course are not entrenched in the silo of the ocean affairs council but they serve themselves so the idea is that we need to learn yes participation officers from the vantage point of being an average citizen but of course trained in public service knowledge yeah but you're never losing the focus of the citizen in what you're doing which is really interesting and quite fundamental I'm just looking again at the chat I'm kind of I think Kat Wilson the US government agency I've really seen news humours the consumer product safety commission and then their twitter account is great so we'll have to check that out Kat thank you for sharing that I know it's good to see other examples as well but in terms of you know Audrey who are you looking out to in this world today I mean people are always coming to you about kind of who's inspiring you at the moment in terms of innovation and democratic in terms of open innovation within democracies in the globe well everyone in the free and open culture community of course as I mentioned as I mentioned as I mentioned I share my own likeness ranging from CC0 to buy it as a online so I wake up every day and see my likeness being remixed into weird interesting memes I think this is really interesting to me because it shows that people care about public policy and often the angle that they use the memes holds tremendous potential for us to communicate our next policy to the population so this is truly a co-creative idea where I make myself into a source material for everyone to remix people in Japan for example a pop band called those monos that takes an interview like the one we're doing and sample the sound into a rap without my knowledge and I learned a lot from that too yeah, yeah, no completely now Jim has come in with a question about how would you compare the magnitude of the climate risk to any quality risk what are your thoughts on that Audrey well it defeats to one another right climate urgency the climate crisis is already creating inequalities worldwide and it requires people to think beyond jurisdictions because certainly carbon dioxide doesn't know about jurisdictions even even more so than computer virus and biological virus what I'm trying to say is that if we think of the climate urgency as a way for the global neighborhood to act upon the kind of communication collaboration structure we already have for the common urgency of infodamic and the pandemic which is already in place and take that through presidential hackathons indeed this year we add an international track focus on climate action and nothing else as a way to basically rebuild the global neighborhood around this idea of what people call polylateralism or multi-stakeholderism and that is a tremendous chance to approach it from equity and quality perspective but internationally not just domestically yes and Nate has come in and said are these risks so intertwined that's exactly what you were saying they are intertwined they're brought together which is so interesting again I'm just checking that we don't have any hidden questions in the CUNY I have not seen I'm just having a quick look as I scroll down nope nope nope we're good we're good so Audrey we've got just 15 minutes left I'm just thinking a little bit more about what practical advice you would give Matthew's coming as well about SDGs what practical advice would you give to other countries to adopt what you have led in Taiwan what would be your three top pieces of advice to give to those countries to move forward with the kind of changes you've implemented and shown an evident success with well the three advice is is called FAST, FAIR and FUN and these these three must be done simultaneously but you can start small you don't have to do this national level you can start with literally a town hall in a town and that works pretty well the Polish pro-social social media picture that I show you is actually Bowling Green Kentucky USA if I'm not mistaken so as you can see they talk about essentially not any of the national topics but strictly local topics the top consensus this red spot says instead of STEM let's make it steam so not just science tech engineering and math but rather the arts an important component and that's as to the competence mindset and people need to create so whether they identify as quote-unquote Republican or quote-unquote Democrat doesn't matter everybody feel the same in this small town about the arts more choices in broadband supply again who would be against it so these are the lower hanging fruits and once people see that it is possible to have a town hall in the digital realm it changes this town's perspective on things because previously people are led to believe that they can only talk about those public matters in the digital equivalent of a smoke field nightclub right which is like Facebook where people sell addictive drinks private bouncers they have to shout to get hurt and so on and with all due respect I mean the night life district contributors to science they are not a place to hold a town hall so we need to invest in digital public infrastructures that are fast, fair and fun but start small yes so I think the big take away we have to from your talk is fast, fair and fun I loved your internet of beings the shared reality collaborative experience and human experience wasn't that was human experience as well wasn't it as well you said Audrey which is really pivotal to that citizen shaping the policy that allows change again to happen Matthew's come in and said there are a bit of discussion before about maker education the UNDP is very keen on using accelerator last to realise the SDGs and I wonder whether Taiwan has experimented with maker spaces and fab labs to focus upon some of the goals I made my keyboard in a fab lab laser cut so I think in Taiwan that the maker education has a lot going for it because we are very strong manufacturing on semiconductors I am making sure that all the optical and acoustic components can be tailor made to the schools needs a lot of people build robots that automate a lot of the schools choice and so on and nothing feels better than the students contributing via legal models to their school I believe the younger you start actually the better it gets because if in the first few years of school life the students learn that the programmers doesn't control everything and they can also customise it to their hearts will then they bring the spirit to pretty much all the discipline they are learning if on the other hand in the first few years in school they learnt that all the tablet maker the Chromebook maker the textbook maker pre-program everything and we must follow existing tracks again they build a learn helplessness yes yes but thank you for talking about your own experience with the makers faces because that is truly inspiring now I am just checking the chat there is any more questions for Audrey because I think we are coming towards the end of the conversation and the end of the hour we are slowly speeding up to that I am not seeing any direct questions Kat and Allison if there is anything that you are seeing that I am not seeing please feed in but Audrey I can't thank you enough for all the support you have given to Creative Commons over the years and showing how you are using Creative Commons in your day to day work to make a difference all questions are coming through the chat that is great and so I would like everyone to show their appreciation on the chat if that is okay to Audrey because we can't hear people clapping but please show your appreciation to Audrey for her inspiring talk today for all that she is doing to make a difference to the citizens in Taiwan but also the inspiration you are making globally Audrey with your openness to show how open solutions are the way forward to have trust to make sure our citizens are heard and also fundamentally that we are thinking about the future generation in that aspect of intergenerational justice which we see in every part of what you are doing so thank you so much for your time today it is our 20th anniversary Creative Commons and I can't think of a better speaker than yourself to show and celebrate the work about what we have done in the past 20 years but what the possibilities are of the next and so it is just tremendously inspiring to see all of these comments Audrey that are coming in so thank you for your time today and keep doing what you are doing and keep inspiring so thank you Audrey I look forward to meet again in a personal Creative Commons summit we have to work on that and until then live long and prosper everyone Thanks Audrey, thank you