 The backlash to the plans for a breakaway super league has been enormous and involved many of the most prominent people in British football. It's also taken quite an overtly political form. This was Gary Neville railing against the plans on Sky Sports on Sunday. Well, the reaction to it is that it's been damned and rightly so. I mean, I'm a Manchester United fan and I've been for 40 years of my life, but I'm disgusted, absolutely disgusted. I'm disgusted with Manchester United and Liverpool most. I mean, Liverpool, they pretend you'll never walk alone. The People's Club, the fans club, Manchester United, 100 years born out of workers around here and they're breaking away into a league without competition that they can't be relegated from. It's an absolute disgrace and honestly, we have to wrestle back the power in this country from the clubs at the top of this league and that includes my club. And I've been calling for 12 months as part of another group for an independent regulator to bring checks and balances in place to stop this happening. It's pure greed. They're imposters. They're imposters. They're nothing to do. The owners of this club, the owners of Liverpool, the owners of Chelsea, the owners of Manchester City, they're nothing to do with football in this country. There are 100 nod years of history in this country from fans that have lived and loved these clubs and they need protecting. The fans need protecting. I've benefited from football hugely. I've made money out of football. I invest money into a football club. Now, I'm not against money in football, but the principles and ethos of fair competition and the rights to play the game so that Leicester win the league. They go into the Champions League. Manchester United aren't even in the Champions League. Arsenal aren't even in the Champions League. You watched them earlier on today. They're absolute shambles of a football club at the moment. Tottenham aren't in the Champions League and they want a God-given right to be in there. They're an absolute joke and honestly, the time has come now, independent regulators stop these clubs having the power base. Enough is enough. That was one of the most rousing political speeches I've seen for a very long time. I don't know. Maybe there's a chill, but I've almost got goosebumps, which is very strange because I'm really not that passionate about football, but this is very, very outrageous. Ash, that video has been viewed 6.6 million times already. Should the billionaires behind the Super League be afraid of Gary Neville and his like? Yes and no. Yes, in terms of I've honestly never seen the tide of public opinion being backed up by the bulk of the sports commentary app, being backed up by the entirety of the associations which govern both national and international football and also being backed up by international governments as well. This is something which simply not really happened in the history of football before, but the thing to bear in mind is that there has been decades and decades of drift in precisely this direction. Now, I thought Gary Neville put the point absolutely perfectly. I think that he diagnosed the problem and he talked about what the issue actually is exceptionally well, but there was a layer of irony that he was doing so while holding the Sky Sports microphone to his lips because in so many ways, the very foundation of the Premier League and the broadcasting deal which was struck with Rupert Murdoch and Sky is the template which is being built on and followed up on with this European Super League. Initially, the Premier League was formed by I think it was five initial breakaway clubs, the big ones, getting together with Greg Dyke and it was initially supposed to be a deal struck with ITV to try and, you know, who've wrote lucrative commercial broadcasting contracts and start doling them out. That was the foundation of the Premier League. Now, the FA at that time, this was back in the early 90s, were really asleep on the watch. There was so casual about this question of rights and ownership that they were just sort of happy to let, you know, these big clubs hold sway and dictate the terms of this deal. So even though the Premier League, still I think in companies houses, registered as, you know, in some papers as the FA Premier League, the FA has got absolutely nothing to do with it. So the seeds of this crisis where, you know, English football was very, very lax about who owns what those were planted many years ago. And the irony is that this was supposed to be a huge payday for ITV when the Premier League was supposed to be set up. And then Alan Sugar, who was at the time the owner of Tottenham privately advised Rupert Murdoch to blow them out of the water with an offer. So Sky beat ITV's offer by I think it was about £42 million. So I think what this sort of shows you in lots of ways is that Gary Neville, of course, is completely right to take this principled stand against the European Super League. And every word coming out of his mouth is correct. However, there has been so much drift in this direction. In terms of the governing organisations in particular UEFA, the trust is so, so low. And even today, UEFA announced that they would make the changes to the Champions League format that the big clubs had all been demanding. So even now, even now when you've got this scandalous breakaway, which completely spits in the eye of the idea of fair play and competition and spirit of the game, you have UEFA kowtowing to these big money interests. So Gary Neville is completely right, but we also should take a step back and be skeptical of the context that this has emerged in. Yeah, that's super interesting. And I mean, I suppose the issue is because why this generation of the Super League is different to anything that's happened before is because it undermines the pyramid model of football. The Premier League, when it started, it didn't undermine the fact that you can get promoted to it and relegated from it. It's still fit with the model of how football works in this country. What it did do, though, was give the clubs more control over TV rights, which is one of the reasons why football became such a big business. And that's how we ended up with billionaire owners, and that's how we ended up with clubs with the power to blow up the whole system. But why it didn't create such opposition at the time is because it didn't undermine the fundamental structure of football, even if it led to the conditions which would then blow it up. Even though I take all of your points about Gary Neville's microphone saying sky on it and how that is somewhat incongruous with what he's saying, I do want to have a look at more of what he said because, again, as you say, everything he's saying is absolutely right. And what I want you to pay particular attention to this time is I've said and before on tonight's show that one of the key issues here is whether or not the FA will hold firm against the clubs that want to form the Super League and kick them out of the league, or if they will fold and say actually, to be honest, you've got too much power, we'll have to come to some kind of accommodation. Now, it's people like Gary Neville who are really, really pushing them to play hardball. There does seem to be the suggestion that they would need permission from the Premier League to take part. And without it, it would have to be a breakaway not just from UEFA competition, but from our domestic competition as well, Gary. So with that in mind, let's be clear about this. What is the motivation? Well, you know what the motivation is? It's greed. Dave, my reaction earlier on wasn't an emotional reaction. Deduct them all points tomorrow. Put them at the bottom of the league and take the money off them. Seriously, you have got to stamp on this. This is a, it's criminal. It's a criminal act against football fans in this country. Make no mistake about it. This is the biggest sport in the world. This is the biggest sport in this country. And it's a criminal act against the fans. Simple as that. Deduct points, deduct their money and punish them. Do you think these clubs would have the courage knowing how much widespread condemnation there is to go through with it, Gary? Dave, the bottle merchants. You never hear from the owners of these clubs. Absolute bottle merchants. They've got no voice. And then they'll probably hide in a few weeks and say it was nothing to do with them. They were only talking about it. Seriously, in the midst of a pandemic and economic crisis, football clubs at national league level going bust nearly, furloughing players, clubs on the edge in league one and two. And these lot are having zoom calls about breaking away and basically creating more greed. Joke. Again, so passionate, so right. And as I say, he's there saying, the FA need to go hard. And he's been keeping that up today. I want to show you a tweet and from Gary Neville this afternoon. He said, this lot think they can sweep up 300 million pounds more each season than the other teams and then wander back on a Saturday and play with that advantage in the Premier League, deduct points, fine heavily and embargo transfers. I hope they haven't bought some of the other 14 clubs. Now, that's a reference saying helps if they haven't bought off some of the other clubs in the Premier League. So, for example, it's completely hypothetical. Maybe Arsenal say, look, if you don't massively oppose this West Ham will help you out with a sort of loan scheme. I've got no idea. Also, very entertaining from Gary Neville, which is commentary on a game he is commentating tonight. So, that will be Leeds versus Liverpool. So, he says, I'm quote tweeting the advert for that game. Leeds players should walk to the side of the pitch and just let them keep scoring. They don't want competition. He goes on, join us if you like for Leeds versus Greeds. Now, I'm hoping this is going to be amped up basically just casting scorn on the teams who have been so, I suppose, so careless and so selfish in this case. If we see the whole of society pouring scorn on them, then it is going to be hard and will we see some of the players speaking out? That's going to be very, very crucial. There are some signs. So, we haven't had any of the big players from any of the teams who have joined it speak out. They're obviously worried that if they speak out against their paymasters, the people who pay their extortionate wages, that might get them in some trouble. But we have seen some top footballers speak out against the Super League and quite significantly, one of them was one of PSG's top players. So, this was a club which was touted as going to be part of the Super League. It now seems like they won't. And the fact that their players are publicly speaking out against it makes it seem even more likely they won't. This is Ander Herrera. He tweets, I fell in love with popular football, with the football of the fans, with the dream of seeing the team of my heart compete against the greatest. If this European Super League advances, those dreams are over. The illusions of fans of the teams that are not giants of being able to win on the field competing in the best competitions will end. I love football and I cannot remain silent about this. I believe in an improved Champions League, but not in the rich stealing what the people created, which is nothing other than the most beautiful sport on the planet. What I love there, and especially as someone who, you know, I watch a bit of football, but I can't say I'm passionate about it, is how this is really bringing out some really political and quite moving language from people. You know, he wants, he doesn't like the rich stealing what the people created. That's a really powerful message to be sending out from a footballer with millions and millions of followers. And it got me asking, could this moment be a really radicalizing one for a huge space of the country? You know, the reach of football is incomparable. Nothing compares to it. We are seeing signs on social media and on Sky News of yeah, people coming out with really, really political statements and really, really left wing statements. That's your real socialist radical statements. One example of that is Lawrence McKenna. He's a football streamer. Comments on football on YouTube has loads of followers on Twitch. He has a clip which went absolutely viral over a million views after the announcement of the Super League. Let's take a look. The Premier League have stalled and stuttered throughout COVID. Every time that we have asked them to be transparent, they have been oblique. Every time that we've asked them for an answer, they've gone, we don't know if actually this is, and basically the top six who need to make cash at some point and have got an investment are going, we're fucking sick of people who are incompetent running our shit. If you let us run this, we'll make massive profit. And they've come along, put an offer on the table before the Premier League did. Why is anyone, first of all, surprised? Secondly, why is anyone outraged that in the Premier League, which was based on money, came out of a Thatcher Government anyway, and is based on a bullshit idea that you can make as much money as you want? Why is anyone surprised that they're saying this? You invite the billionaires in and they turn on you. You fucking idiots. Anyone who thought this wasn't going to come around when the top six is owned by people who have self-interest is deluded. And it's because we've allowed Sky and the fucking Premier League and the FA to lie to us for years and tell us that we're in a good position. We have the best league in the world. It's bullshit. And I'm sick of being patronized as a fan and told by the Times and all these other people owned by fucking Rupert Murdoch that you've got a good deal. You should just stick here. Do you know why he says that? Do you know why Sky say this? Because it benefits them. So we're just, it's either a billionaire that wins with Sky or it's a billionaire that wins on the other side. Now, the first thing I'm going to tell you is that that was Lawrence McKenna and he is going to be here on our channel tomorrow night, Tuesday for Downstream speaking to Ash Sarkar. If you don't want to miss that, hit subscribe and turn notifications on. We'll see you there. Now, Ash, I want your thoughts on what Lawrence McKenna said there and also, you know, the impact you think this move could have on politics more generally because I'm watching some of this. I'm feeling quite, you know, excited. Well, I mean, so one, Lawrence was completely right, especially how he linked this to the origins of the Premier League, which we discussed a bit earlier. But what it also points to is exactly why this is so important outside of the context of football. Because I know that we've got a lot of viewers tonight who are probably not that interested in football, who maybe found some of the aspects of football culture a bit alienating or even a bit kind of hostile. And I understand that not everybody has to be into the same kinds of things. But what this whole shameful episode shows is that when it comes to neoliberalism and the financialization of everything, there is no end point. There is no point at which other values or indeed the value of so-called customers and consumers will override the profit motive. It will just keep going on and on. And I think what this has been has been a wake-up call for football fans is that for a very long time now, they've not been the customers. They've not been the customers. They've been a product who's been sold to be advertised to. They've had their money extracted from them in terms of ever-increasing ticket prices and ever-increasing, you know, Sky Sports packages and the like. And meanwhile, the actual experience of going to see the football, how much has it improved? How much has it improved in terms of quality and a sense of community and a sense of joy compared to 30 or 40 years ago? It hasn't, but it has become much more financialized. And in treating, you know, fans like customers, well, it turns out fans aren't even, you know, deigned to be worthy of customers' rights. So I think that what it does is that it shows neoliberalism for the sham of what it is. And there's no such thing as consumer rights. There's just consuming. You get what you're given and that's it. Whether or not this is to be a politicizing moment, of course, it then depends on the kind of organizations which are there ready to direct the energy and the anger. But what I hope it can do is show once and for all that the profit motive is not the best way of determining the value of something. It's a phrase which is repeated again and again, which is that, you know, a capitalist sees a forest and determines that it's got the most values when all the trees are cut down. Something similar with football. There are all these things which are valuable about it, which in some ways require the subordination of the profit motive. So when you look at what goes on in Germany with a 50 plus one model, now with the 50 plus one model, which does mean that football in Germany is less lucrative than in other countries, particularly when you compare to those top, top teams in La Liga or in the Premier League, they're at a disadvantage. But if that model was to be adopted across the whole of European football, of course, it would be a vast improvement because you look at what else they've been able to do. Because it's majority fan-owned, there are a couple of exceptions to that because you can apply for an exemption to the 50 plus one rule if your investor demonstrates a commitment of 20 years or longer to the club. But for the rest of the clubs, what they've had to do within that context is one, you have on average more tickets being sold. You've got way more spectators in per football match. Two, you've got a much closer relationship between fans and the football. There's a real sense of community spirit and involvement there. And three, what that leads to is a sense of, yeah, you've got these incredible teams and it's not an equal playing field at all. There's a reason why Bayern and Dortmund are so regularly seen in the Champions League. Certainly not as meritocratic as we would like it to be. But there is certainly a sense of cultural value, of community value and grassroots connection that in German football, they've been able to maintain to a certain degree that we've almost entirely lost in this country. Another thing which I think is about the skewing of the value is I don't like the idea that by virtue of the financial clout that is able to wield that Tottenham-Hotspur has inherently more value than Barnsley FC or because of the lineage and the prestige is so much better than Leeds United. Leeds are probably not going to make it into the Champions League in those days of Don Revy and Brian Klough along behind them. But you look at what they're doing in the Premier League, that fast style, open play, there's a joy in it and you can see in terms of the celebrations in the streets when Leeds achieve promotion, their value in playing football and their ability to play games against the biggest teams. It can't simply be measured in terms of their success or their ability to make it into the Champions League or indeed the revenue that they're able to extract. It's part of this tapestry which makes this cultural form great and when you subordinate all of that to profit, what do you lose? Well, you lose everything. And this is the thing is that it's not just about football. This can happen in any industry, in any sport, in anything that you find valuable and enriching which isn't literally the job you do, this can happen. And this is why it matters so much and that's why not only must the European Super League be stopped but this must be an opportunity, I think, for democratic management and ownership of football clubs to put the control back where it belongs and that's with the people who made the sport great in the first place.