 Yeah, welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is American Issues. Take two title of our episode today is how do we reach this level of national violence? It's the guns, but it's much more than the guns. And for this show, we have Stephanie Stoll Dalton and Vicki Kytano for the discussion. And we'll talk to them in a moment. Good afternoon, Vicki Kytano and Stephanie Stoll Dalton. Nice to have you on the show, you guys. Thank you very much for joining us. Vicki is an esteemed guest, and Stephanie is a regular contributor to this show, American Issues Take Two. So I want to start with a question. Let me put it to you, Stephanie. Why is there so much violence in this country? It's an unfair question. I know that. Why? Well, I think you already hit a nail on the head with the guns. But now going back and thinking about this topic, I'm going back now to the 70s. Where we had the Angela Davis, we had the Symbionnes Liberation Army, we had the Black Panthers, and we had all of that busting out in the 70s to the point where you would think America was dangerous to be in for two minutes. So there was a lot of that going on. And perhaps that even gave more rise to the gun ownership issue that we're dealing with now, where people have multiple guns, that those who have guns have many of them. And they're not actually necessarily following all the rules that go along and all the laws that we have on the books with guns. But there's a lot of guns to have to be able to track or monitor. I mean, to the tune of maybe more than the population numbers that we have in the country. That's over 400 million. Exactly. So anyway, so these are the, we have, we have that going on, then the gun ownership and the feeling of being terrified and that we have these gorillas and we have this danger out there, right? My concern, my consternation is at the same time, we have Martin Luther King, Jr., with his message of nonviolent resistance and marching and response of citizens to power. And we've got these two pieces just in a huge, in a huge addressing that the issues that we had at the time of the civil rights and other issues similar to that at that time. So we've got the, the piece, the violent, a nonviolent peaceful approach. And then we have this absolute warfare going on represented by these other, these other groups I've mentioned. So, and now here we are. So wonder why we are in such a situation because the momentum has just continued with no abatement, no intervention, no. So Vicki, you know, you know, we used to talk only about guns, but, and people with guns doing massacres and too many guns like Stephanie says. But now we also have evidence that the police with guns or even batons are being very brutal and they're killing people who really, you know, couldn't be killed. And, and then we have people with knives. And so, and, you know, am I missing something? Is there a common denominator among all these various types of violence we see reported? You know, I think that, yes, there is, it's more than just as you say about the guns, that's a representation of something deeper. I really think that the one of the big challenges is that we're shifting as a society. We're going through a huge transition in terms of who's holding the influence and the power. In our society, as a country, we've never seen as much diversity as we have now, corporate world, in politics, all the different faces. And I think that's creating a lot of tension underneath from those who traditionally hold the power. You look at South Africa when they went through the apartheid and the transition, you know, there was a lot of violence there in the home front. Women now are creating their own place. They're not marrying to in order to have a safe and secure future. They're creating their own financial future. So there's a lot of that tension domestically in the home front, I think in the political arena without a doubt. I think this is really one of the big issues that we're not talking about, that we need to. And certainly the media replays it because it is a story. The media today is not just about responsible journalism, as we do on ThinkTech. It's a business, what sells, what creates interest. So I think it's just a number of issues that's creating this kind of violence that we're seeing, not only with police brutality, but if you think about that gunman in Monterey Park, you know, a 72 year old man who burst into two dance studios and kills what appears to be fellow dance colleagues of his. What's behind that? Now he killed himself, so we don't really know, but we can only piece together from the police reports what may have caused that violence. We always have to ask whether mental health is an issue in these cases, particularly when we can no longer talk to the perpetrator, he's dead. But you make a good point about the press, the media. The media is a player here. So Stephanie, I want to just identify it's not only the case in the dance studio. It's the Vermont teenager who was killed in a fight on the basketball court in the last day or so. He was killed on an argument about basketball. My goodness, gracious. In Memphis, of course, the frenzy, which is emblematic of the problem somehow, and it was not racial because everybody on the platform was African American, and yet it was as brutal as it gets. And the fact that there were cameras there, and those guys could have figured out that the cameras would show them, they nevertheless need them to effrasil and kill them. Okay. And then, you know, there's the fleeing double amputee in Los Angeles. He's in a wheelchair and he has no legs below the knees, and he gets out of the wheelchair and runs the other direction, runs is the wrong word, and they shot him 10 times dead. The police did. They really needed to do that. Did they need to shoot a double amputee without legs, who was trying to run on the stumps of his legs, who was wheelchair bound. He's running away from running is the wrong word, running away from them, and they shot him 10 times. And there was an incident in the Metro in Washington, D.C., very recently, about a shooter who shot a number of people and killed the Metro guard who was there trying to stop him. So, you know, I'm sure I'm missing a few, because we used to look at this every week or every two weeks. Now we look at it every day, and we saw whole potpourri of violences, many of which are lethal violences, many of which are, you know, arise out of such anger that, you know, you're not sure what's going on in this country, as Vicki says. So my question to you, Stephanie, is the media, as Vicki said, you know, the media is playing this up every day. I know what they're going to tell me on television because they've been telling me the same thing all week about Memphis, for example. It's like there's no other news. Is this good for us? Well, that's a wonderful question, Jay, that I've asked myself as it comes on and I start shifting channels because I don't want to hear about the violence again and again and again, and that didn't occur to me personally, internally, that very question. Is this good to be seeing this over and over again? And what is the impact on everyone? And I think that going back again to the history, if we recall back in the LAPD, the police department in Los Angeles, I think they were the first to bring the SWAT team on and to address these conflagrations that they were having in that zone. And certainly not the only place there were issues, but they were questioning whether the police should be brought in with all of that armor. And that question persists. Who is supposed to have all of this armor and equipment that goes on today? We still haven't really responded to that. Well, we saw that in the Scorpion group in Memphis. Exactly. What do we need that armor for? Well, of course, as time has gone on, we've got all of this weaponry out there. So certainly the police need to be equal, combatants. And I think that that's driven ahead with a lot of this to be even combatants. But one of the other things that might be in play here is that aren't these men, all of these men and women who are policemen, I think in most places they're taught to shoot to kill. If you're going to shoot, you shoot to kill because you can't say, oh, I'm going to hit him on the right ear or the left pinky or, you know, the heel, that because you can't, you can't react towards that tiny, a target, whatever the rationale is, they've evidently decided that most police people are actually taught when they do shoot to kill. But our question, I think, is, or my question, why are they shooting? What's bringing that gun out? Is it mortal threat? In the case, in these cases, you're miss, you're mentioning, Jay, there's not mortal threat to the police. So, and then, okay, so I'm just jumping around here, but I did want to just say the British people don't, the British police people do not have guns that they have like the baton. So anyway, I'm just these questions you're asking are really Let me go back to the first question I asked you. And that is, you know, is the press overdoing this? And what effect does it have? If the press is just laden with scenes of violence and funerals and people calling for justice and all that, what effect does it have on 330 million Americans? Agreed. Jay, that is really important. And maybe they need feedback from the public on how they're consuming all of this repetitive information. Every single show takes it on. So there could be some program designing that might lead us away from... I think, you know, the common point is, of course, they want raw meat that sells ads. But the other thing is they're conveying a message that the United States is flawed. And then we have serious social problems here. And I think that affects people in some way. I mean, it's a whole social psychology issue. But it also travels around the world. And to the extent that it may be glorifying violence or exaggerating violence, everyone in the world sees the United States as a violent place, which, you know, to some extent is true in the sense that it was more violent now than it was, say, 10 years ago. But in a little sense, it's unfair to us that we should have a global image of being violent. Vicki, I wanted to ask you... Yeah, do you really think it's an unfair image? Jay Fidel, I think to an extent we've earned that, you know. Now, to be fair, media is going to say we have a responsibility, that's what they're going to say, to report these critical news and to try to impact society for the better. But while there may be some truth to that, the other side of it, frankly, is media today is a business, okay? There are not many think texts that do this really to just simply talk about issues. It is a business. And so they are going to put out, as you say, the raw meat that sells. And that's why they keep putting this on. And you have to ask, does this in turn make it do we as a society now hearing so much of this? Are we becoming numb, numb to all of the killings, the gun violence? We're just like, oh, another shooting. How many this time? You know, we just become numb to it. And that I think is very dangerous. Well, you know, the other thought is it's on television. And it's not my city, not my city. It's some other city, maybe miles away, half a half a world away, half a continent away, not going to affect me. But then, you know, if you see it over and over again, you say, well, maybe it is coming to my city. Maybe I have to have a more personal kind of fear. Maybe I have to take steps to protect myself. You know, gun sales are up dramatically in this country. Thank you, Congress. Thank you very much. And so, you know, people are buying guns, who knows whether they're buying guns to be aggressive or defensive, but they're buying more gun, more guns equals more gun violence. So I guess the question is, are people internalizing this as personal fear? Are they now at a point where they see it happening to them or someone they know in their city? Yeah, I definitely think there are people who are genuinely fearful, and they are getting guns to protect themselves. The sad part is violence begets violence, you know. And as we have seen now, I'm sure we're at a record number of gun ownership in our country, more than any country in the world. And yet we are, from a developed country perspective, the most violent country as well. So it's not working. Well, you say it's not working, but what is working? I mean, what is it that we have? Our gun control laws are really dishwater, including that statute that Congress passed after the Uvaldi incident last summer. Stephanie, I wanted to ask you one of my favorite questions, okay? How much has this got to do with your friend, Arnold J. Trump? I say your friend, because I know he's not my friend. How much has this got to do? Can he do things that somehow unleash the violence that we are seeing now? Well, frankly, in my opinion, I believe so, because of the base that he invokes and provokes and it tolerates. So the people that are his biggest supporters, strongest supporters are people that he wouldn't have in Mar-Lago, and people that would not, he would not welcome to the dinner table there. And he wouldn't feel safe if they were there. But those are the people that he can provoke to his messages, which are, I'm not going to get in the way of any of this, I'm going to support you. And I love the way you are, as he says often. And I'm going to give you opportunities to be the way you are, but of course I'm not doing that myself. So we really do have some had, we have had someone in the leadership, the major leadership position that has accommodated them, absolutely accommodated them. And even from Charlottesville, with the both kinds of people are really fine people. And now also the very fine people that attack the United States Capitol. So here is our, in our apocalyptic movies, mostly starring Charlton Heston and these people, we see them walking along the beach, you know, and there's nothing left on the earth except that the Statue of Liberty is usually falling over in his line there on the beach. Well, I think when we do them going forward, we need to have a big gun line there because that is becoming, as you were saying in your late last comments that America is overwhelmingly gun, gun is becoming our symbol. And I just wish we could do something about that. Yeah, you know, Vicki, think of the proud boys and the oath keepers. You know, they turn up at right wing events. There was an article in the paper about that. They turn up and they wear guns. My open carry is really important to them. They walk into a state legislature with guns. Nobody stops them. Those organizations and many others like them are all about guns and macho and phallic symbols. And you know, that is their religion. It's all built around the extension of their personal power through guns. And then I want to ask one more part of that question, television. And I'm not talking about news now. I'm talking about entertainment. I'm talking about Netflix, Prime and half a dozen others, which show you what they believe and what is probably truly popular in the way of these movies. And the movies like, I don't want to say 90%, maybe 80% are all about guns and violence and vengeance and hatred. I mean, we're in a swamp. I hate to use that term. It's a Trump swamp, a Trump term. We're drowning in entertainment that is all really about violence. And it's telling us that violence is okay. It's telling us if you want to act out, hey, go for it. Be violent. So I mean, how do you agree with me about the connection? Absolutely, Jay. And first, I will say of Donald Trump as president of the United States, not a major leadership, but the main leader, the leader of this country, he legitimized violence. He encouraged it. There's no question what happened at the Capitol. So that definitely played a role. And then I do think as a country, we are paying a prize for invoking that freedom and individual rights must always come first. We've created a culture now where that's sometimes translated to, yeah, individual right, like I want to take it out on you because I'm angry at you. And if the rest of the world, the violence you see is disguised as entertainment, that our young people and our children are have grown up watching, to me, that definitely has made an impact to the problem that we're seeing in dealing with gun violence. Say gun violence, Vicky, but you know, we have all the kinds of violence. We have we have baseball bats. We have batons. We have all kinds of weapons that are not knives, big knives, which are used in lethal attacks. And I wonder if you see a connection between the, you know, the fact that guns are out of control. I think any reasonable person would agree guns are out of control in this country. But do you see a connection between that and, and, you know, violence and death and injury and personal attacks using other weapons? I do. And I know that people in that industry will always disagree. They say, oh, that's not real. But to a young person, to a child in particular, what's real and what's not real. So what they're seeing is, I think it does create an aura around this violence as part of entertainment, video games that are very violent, that they play today. You know, parents today have a really tough time now. It's not what goes on outside your house. It's what your child sees inside your home. You know, and I do think that has an impact. It's a price we paid as a society in the name of freedom and the individual rights that we want. And we're paying a big price for it now. There's definitely a connection. You're thinking of that child in elementary school who shot his teacher. He brought a gun to class. And for reasons that are not exactly clear, he shot his teacher at the age. I mean, he was less than 10 years old. Six years old. Can you believe that? You know, so yeah, these are all tited. I don't think you can say just one thing has created what we're seeing today. There are a number of things. And that's what makes the problem so challenging. But it has to start at the top. And for me, having a president like Donald Trump absolutely did not help and definitely made things even worse. We're seeing it now. So, you know, Stephanie, it's very interesting that we have a divided country. The country is divided on questions of law and rule of law and constitutional protections or not. A million different public policy issues have divided the country. We're divided. And people are really excited about angry, about the dividedness. And my question to you is, does that play into this? If I get so angry, so excited about my political position on a given issue, does that sort of feed into the next step, the step of violence on the street, violence with guns, violence with weapons, violence against racial groups? Well, the interesting question, I think that it does accept that we've had COVID. We've had economic distress. So people have had the priorities, the living and eating and getting by to deal with. I await the young people who have come out of these high schools where they have lost friends and classmates. Okay, so from Columbine on, I was hoping that indeed, as these young people said while they were still high schoolers that they were going to do something about this. And I think the one that has only risen to prominence is Mr. Hogg. I'm whatever his first name is, David, but Mr. Hogg. And I've seen him speak it and he's very, very powerful. But where is it that they're working? Where is their funding? Why aren't these young people who have been there done it and reject it and want to remediate the nation from doing that? So where is their work? And why isn't that on every time they show something on TV? I would say couple up these violent presentations if we have to have that meet out there, then couple that up with how things are going in the way of ameliorating this. How are we mitigating this in the U.S.? What are the efforts and who are the people? And let's start showing these people that are working hard on it. And then of course there's the Congress. And it's just like with that taking Ilhan off of the Foreign Relations Committee, 211 of them voted her off. Really? All 211 thought that was the thing to do? Do we have to be in lobster? So this gets us into the whole political thing, Jay. Why is that all lockstep? Why is that Congress all locked down under the leadership? I don't think that's what Jefferson and Madison and Adams had in mind. Is it that we can't get anything moving? As we've said, it's clear that this is no longer a monthly or a weekly event. It's a daily event. Sometimes it's a day. Sometimes in various cities throughout the day. And you would think that Congress would get the message. You would think that every Republican would get the message, but they doubled down on it. And they're out there protecting their view of the Second Amendment. I find that extraordinary. And I wonder, you talk about lockstep that evokes the thought that they're completely irrational and they're not in there to perform their oath to protect the country. They're in there on some kind of ideologue mission to protect the guns. Extraordinary, they don't do anything. And last summer, they didn't do anything after a horrendous attack in Texas. And all these other attacks and all these other expressions of violence, they don't do anything. Zero. Crickets. With the babies even. And so I know that they've had their share of challenges, but why aren't the Kennedys doing something about this? They lost two of their men to assassination. Why are these people not? Anyway, they're not. So they're not. And the Martin Luther King family, too. They lost a very young man who had great potential, very accomplishing and still could have done 40 more years of that. And they lost him. Now they've got the nonviolent approach. But how can we turn the attention of the huge influencers of change, maybe, towards this really important issue? Because internationally, we're going to be a pariah. Who wants to come here for a vacation? You want to go to Chicago for God's sake? Yeah, then you hear about tourist kind of by the way, I want to add one thing is that we have Erin Davis, and she's with the Brady group. Oh, good. They're the ones that have done a lot. And they're mostly in court. You know, they do lobbying, too. But they're in court suing gun manufacturers and that have been negligent about guns. Really important. So why don't we hear more about that? And why is that the only one? I mean, what are the other ones, Jay? I don't know. I can't name them. See, we don't have all this. We should know what's going on. Yes, we should. And that's why we're here. A major problem. What does take a shot in our own heads to get active? Well, maybe in our own community, it's coming. Right now, we have people from the mainland who come here and support open carry. And they're changing a society. They're trying to change a society here in Hawaii that really didn't have a lot of guns. And to be a society that has more guns, that's very that mainland influences. Vicki, you have a thought. We have not talked to about follow the money. I mean, the gun manufacturers play a very big role in this. They're lobbying. It has tremendous influence. And you talk about Congress. Well, what do you think is influencing Congress? These gun manufacturers because follow the money. And that at the end of the day is part of the big issue. The other part is the ghost guns. Don't forget the ghost guns because you can do a ghost gun on a 3D printer. Has no serial number. And I forget what city it was. I think it might have been New York. Hundreds of ghost guns have been found and appropriated. That's going to increase. But if we can now Sandy Hook people, they got distracted by the idiot who was denying that it ever happened. So they had to go down that route for 12 years. So but thereafter, Remington or whoever's the gun manufacturer for the AR, if that's the gun they used at Sandy Hook, I'm not completely sure my details here. Do you really think that's going to stop guns in this country? Yes, I agree with Vicki. I think that's a critical component is get at the, they are making more money hand over fist. But suing them is going to stop. But it has to keep going. But they have, we have to keep going with until the awards are so huge, which is what Sandy Hook is getting the movement towards or they're getting them way, way up there. We're in that part of the discussion where we are seeking solutions here. One of them is what the radio organization does, suing the gun manufacturers or anyone in the supply line who has enabled this. But there are other things too. And there was an article in the Times a couple of days ago about how the Biden administration has essentially thrown money into anti-violence around the country, but that a lot of the programs that he's given it to are ineffectual or corrupt and it's not working. So throwing money from the other side, from the governmental side is not necessarily a solution. Your thoughts, Vicki? You know, you're absolutely right. Again, follow the money. A lot of these fundings that go to so-called for the good cause actually end up in the wrong, being used the wrong way. I think that everybody should not just be waiting for someone else to do it. You know, wouldn't it be great if instead of reacting to somebody who has been killed by police that we could proactively, as you say, look for opportunities to glorify the positive behavior. We often glorify the negative behavior with so much attention. You know, even if we're not praising it, but just the fact that they get attention creates copycats, creates people who seek that kind of attention. So I think we need to bring more balance to this. And there is no one single solution, but certainly leadership at the government level and in the private sector. And don't forget in our homes. And I know it's hard for parents, but really spending more time with your kids, talking to them, even though it may be difficult, but talk about these tough issues. Talk to them about it. And I think it's going to take us all coming together in order to have some kind of impact on this gun violence issue. Violence in general. There are lobbyists coming into the state supporting, advocating for open carry and other expansions of the gun limitations here. It's just really tragic, because we don't have a problem. We haven't had a problem. And they come in here and do that. They're also trying to undermine our abortion laws. And there's a part of me wants to say, why don't you guys go home? We don't need you here. You're expressing some sort of national ideology that we don't want. We don't care about it. Why do you come in here and mess with our idyllic society? That's what I want to say. What do you want to say to them? Ah, but Jay, they will say it's their right freedom. And this is the big price we pay, you see. You know that if you even tried to do that, it would be challenging, cordon, you would lose. And so this is one of the big prices that we're paying for, whether it's freedom to see anything we want to see at any time of the day, the impact it has to our children, freedom to carry a gun. It's all of these things coming together. And unfortunately, as a society, we're paying a huge price for all of it. We've got to be willing to let go of some of this in order for us to reclaim what's ours, what is our right, I believe, which is to live in a safe community. Now, we have to speak to our legislators about it and tell them to resist these carpet beggars who come around here and try to pull the rug out from under us. Stephanie, your thoughts? I want to make one point that I think is as good as Vicki's point about following the money, and it is that these are all young men. Could we stand up and address that? It is all young men. So we've got two factors there that they've tried to work on the young part to raise the sales of guns to older to higher ages, but it's boys. So Vicki's point about the home and how they're tending to these issues in the homes with the young boys. So when is that okay in a democracy to notice that it is all boys? Could we please pay attention to some intervention here? I mean, geez, I just, I mean, it's like the elephant is just so big. There's not even any room to breathe and talk around it. So anyway, I do think we need to consider that. And I hope that that's not a challenge to get, you know, girls involved in this. But the fact of the matter is we do have a particular situation here that is identifiable easily. Yeah, Vicki is going to point out to you, the guy in the dance hall was 72 years old. Okay, he was a boy, but he was not young. Yeah. So we have an unyoung one, but that he was male. So I mean, something's going on here with that. And there's, and that also might be a part of the advertising, the follow the money Vicki's point and the way all of this information is characterized on the television to make it appealing to young men, right? So somehow they're the ones being influenced and who are sucking up this message to do something like this. I want to make a one statement, then I'll turn it over to you guys for your final comments. And my statement is this, I believe that Trump and, you know, the process of the country over the past 10 years anyway, has broken the ties that bind us. In other words, people don't like the federal government. They don't like the United States. They don't like the rule of law, a lot of them, the base and more. They don't respect it. They don't feel part of it. And in fact, we are part of the government and the government is part of us. And you know, I rue the day when they knocked off the draft in the 70s, because that meant that a young person, man or woman would understand the relationship of the citizen and the government. It's more than just paying your taxes and registering your car. It's more than that. You have to connect with the government, respect, be part of the government and see the government as working for you. And I think when we break those ties that bind, we are allowing for chaos. And part of the chaos is this. It's the violence. And the violence will only continue and exacerbate unless we find a meaningful solution. Okay, that's my last comments. What about your last comments? Vicki, you first. That was so well stated, Jay. I would just say amen to all of that. That was just the way you said it right on. That's it? Yep. You summarized it so perfectly. I had nothing else to add. It's beautiful. Thank you for that, Stephanie. Well, I want to build on your statement and say now that those draftees or however we want to phrase that going forward, I would really love to see some kind of program that would pull in our youth and that it would be boys and girls all go for whether it's a draft or some other kind of program that gets everybody out of their community and into the world to see some things that they're going to find are much like us, but an awful lot different in some very interesting ways. And that they can come back and understand this country in a much deeper way than they can now. Yeah. The violence is emblematic, as you both said, of larger, more profound problems under the hood. We'll cover it again. Stephanie Stolt-Alton, Vicki Caetano, thank you so much for this important discussion. Aloha. Thank you. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.