 Through the nearly seven years the future transformed. We've been looking hard at the future of higher education and in order to do So we try to look equally hard at research and data about the present and about the recent past This gives us a better insight into the future Now one of the great enterprises for doing that research is the National Student Clearing House Which does a tremendous job of serving the current data about colleges and universities Our two guests have just published a report which looks at one particular slice of all that data If you look at the bottom left of our screen, you'll see a kind of mustard colored button that has a link to it What they've done is looked carefully at the experience of first-year college and University students trying to understand what happens to them on the route to potential academic success The report is fascinating clear backed up by data And I'm really looking forward to hearing more about how this report was created and what they've learned I'd love to hear your thoughts. So first, let me welcome to the stage Affet Dundar, who is one of the lead researchers. Let's see if we can bring her up Good afternoon. Hi. Hello. Good to see you. Dr. Dundar. Good to see you again Good to see you. I'm glad you made it. I'm glad you where are you today? Where have we found you in Washington DC? Ah, so it is nice and cool and comfortable outside. No, that's a total lie. It's a swamp Well We have a tradition on the program of asking people to introduce themselves by describing what they're gonna be working on for the next year And I would have to I imagine you have a lot on your plate What kind of projects are you working on and what ideas what topics are top of your mind? Absolutely Thank you so much for arranging this and thank you for everyone for being here We are very excited to be here to share some of the findings from our report Looking to the future. I wanted to say a few things, you know, since the release of this report We have had a lot of positive feedback a lot of questions also Was that we know how these metrics will look for for the students who who started in the pandemic years So that's going to be next for us We are keeping an eye on the data and as institutions are submitting new data as soon as we feel like we can do that We will produce these metrics will continue these research for for students who started in 2021 and 2022 and In addition also the crane house as an organization that holds a lot of data The organization is interested in establishing and driving forward the principles for equitable data use and for for driving forward the principles for inclusive unbiased unbiased approach to data collection and analytics and I'm leading that work Which means really to look at looking at the data and looking at the whether what kind of biases there might be in the historical data Analyzing data how we are using it so that we would not what we are producing within the perpetuate in equities, but rather With with contribute to equity. So that That is a plan for the near future Wow, that's a lot of great work I think everyone will want to see what you find out about the COVID the first COVID class experience And of course doing the great just work of making sure data is not Repet you know repeating and reproducing and equities Fantastic. Well, um, Dr. Dundar, let me put you here for a second and then we add to our stage You're a wonderful colleague and they bring him up on stage as well Let's see if I can just do this Uh-huh. Here we go And welcome Benjamin England good to see you sir. Thanks Brian. Thank you for having me. Well welcome. I'm really glad you could make it Well, you heard how we how we asked these questions. You've had time to prepare your answer. What is the next mere liehead for you? So I would say one of the great things about my upcoming year and what I'm looking forward to is actually working with a FET on a Lot of the work that she also just outlined What I come back with experience in is a lot more a practitioner working with higher education Folks as well as within higher education So hopefully I can bring that that scope and that lens So a lot of the work that a FET has talked about and work in conjunction with her I also hope to really help our users that are on the ground. So to speak using PDP data To advance student success in an equitable manner With some of the principles that I'm working with a FET to guide and help the NSC actually create across the organization Excellent excellent Again the important stuff to work on and I forgot to ask you where are you today geographically? I am in actually I am in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So we are quite warm here, but less humid at least So that's the one win. It's a dry heat And what is it noon or 11 there? It is 12 13 here. So yeah, we are two hours behind the East Coast here. Well, good afternoons. Good afternoon Well friends, I want to put a couple of questions to our guests But then I'd love to hear what you are interested in what you'd like to see So to begin with I'd like to ask your report has so much information But I was wondering if you could tell us all a bit about how you assembled this Specifically, what kind of data set you had and also what what do you mean by credit completion ratio? And what do you mean by credit accumulation? That first year experience Sure The data we are using for this report come from a service of the clearinghouse called post-secondary data partnership I'll call it PDP the rest of the time. So PDP started in 2017 with only 70 institutions with a commitment to Student success and commitment to producing outcomes Really commitment to contributing to equitable outcomes for all students We are collecting course credit grade information within PDP and for this So it started with 70 institutions currently we have about 500 institutions in PDP for this particular report We are using students who started in 2019 2020 the year 1920 and We were able to use data from 342 institutions these are 40 a public and private institutions as well as two-year public institutions We have a little over 900,000 students in the sample And we have two groups of students These are all first-year students first-time students in that school but about 600,000 of the students are first-time ever students and The one-third of the sample are students who were first time in that school where they started But they had enrollment in a different school. So we call them first-time transfer in students in the sample and A few other things about the metrics what we are using We call them early momentum metrics credit accumulation rate and credit completion ratio or the And as a name we use is leading indicators and the reason why they are leading indicators These are the metrics that institutions can look at while the students are enrolled as opposed to some of the traditional measures such as completion rate where When we look at the data of a particular cohort students who didn't finish they are they're gone already. So good for Policymaking but not so much for practitioners to help the students while they are enrolled and the Credit accumulation rate and credit completion ratio are really for the practitioners to look at the data to help the students see which students who needs support and really support their work support their As they are enrolled credit accumulation rate We'll talk a little bit about when we come to the findings. It is about measuring Whether students what percentage of the students who each certain thresholds. These are part-time enrollments that thresholds such as Earned 12 credits or 15 credits or full-time enrollment thresholds such as whether students earned 24 credits or 30 credits within their first year and we are looking at the full first year Credit completion ratio is the percentage of the student percentage of the credits earned out of all credits attempted by the students So if they're trying for an undergraduate degree say roughly 120 credits Yes, and the report looks at the first year. Yes, I see I see okay. Well, thank you That's that's a tremendous amount data. I mean nearly a million students And you've got a nice variety of institutions and the total number is something like about 7% of the whole Which is excellent quick clarifying question came from Tom Hames. He asks to transfers include dual credit students So this the cohort actually is defined by the institutions We do have indicator whether they had dual enrollment or summer enrollment for that student in that In that institution, so they that's how it comes from the institution Benjamin. Do you want to add anything to that? Yes, so for the most part I believe the institutions do adhere to the formal sense of a transfer student and not it code a Previously dual enrolled student as a transfer student, but it is the institution coding them as a transfer student Very good. So some of them are dual Well, thanks. Thanks for the quick answer and Tom. Thanks for a good question And again a fat. Thank you for the for the detail analysis and this is a really good way I think to try and parse what's happening to these large number of students as they move through this crucial year but now given all that and I Friends if you have any other research methodology questions or data questions, please start lining them up because these people can answer them But I'm wondering what your findings. I mean you were slicing and dicing these students Through several different lenses including transfer status But also including gender and also including race and you found really divergent experiences Can you can you say a few words about these findings and what were some of the strongest differences you found for example? Yes, absolutely. I can say more than a few words We have a lot of data points in the report. We really hope that they are actionable I'll I'll mention Just a few of them to convey perhaps the big picture what is going on on these two metrics and I'll start with Credit completion ratio again. This is the This is the percentage of credits earned out of all students attempted in their first year and on average Students earned 76% of their students in this sample and when we look separately and transfer in students It's a little higher 79% and when we look at first time ever in college students It was 74% for this particular cohort when we looked at separately for Male students and female students women had slightly higher credit completion ratio at 78% and man had 73% So and then we looked at the And at these three a ratio but by race ethnicity and we do see variation in there We see black students and American Indian or Alaska Native students had They earn just about two-thirds of the credits. They attempt that can fit 67% and 68% for those students for Hispanic students and native Hawaiian or other The Pacific Islander students the rate was at 74% and 73% and I know this are a lot of percentages and numbers and for white and Asian students Credit completion ratio was about 80% and 84% Yes We also looked at what we call intersectional experiences, right? We looked at by race ethnicity for Female students only and for male students only I will not go through all those percentages, but I would say that for for Nearly every racial ethnic group woman did have slightly higher credit completion ratio than men But the pattern pattern stated consistent what we saw for overall numbers That's fascinating. So we have I don't want to have women edging out men slightly But significantly and then you have a racial spread which seems to map on to a lot of American academic performance What did you oh gosh? Friends, I don't want to hog the mic here I'm sure you all have tons of questions and you just got a really compressed Executive summary of some of the major findings. This is the platform for your questions and comments and We already have If you don't mind, I'll say just there a few more things about credit accumulation rate and then we'll open up for for the questions So credit accumulation rate. This is the threshold I mentioned earlier that we looked at what percentage of students Reach different thresholds did they earn at least 12 credits 15 credits 24 credits and or 30 credits within their first full year and the overall numbers about 63 percent of the students Earned 12 credits at these 12 credits when we looked at 15 credits. It was just a little over half of the students 54 percent Only one sort of the students this first year students earned 24 credits in their first year and 18 percent just 18 percent earned 30 credits in their first year This is this is rich stuff and thank you. Thank you. I mean so friends. This is one of the reasons why we have Experts doing this and we have questions Oh, and here's one right now and this is from a great friend of her program and a host or sorry guest at one time So it is fantastic work the splendid Christine Wolf Eisenberg and she asks this How do you start analyzing 2020 2021 data yet? I'm concerned but not surprised to see the disruption of the 1920 academic year Reflecting credit accumulation. I'm eager to see how the gap trends from here Yes, absolutely. I think the cohort we used Probably does have some impact from the pandemic, but it is we're also students who started in full 2019 their first year would finish in 2020 just couple of months after After pandemic hit maybe few months after pandemic But then there is spring starters spring 2020 starters. Yes, absolutely. We we also look forward to seeing How this trend will continue in what ways? Good question And and a good answer given where you all stand in your research if you're new to the forum by the way That's an example of one of those Question mark q&a box questions and here's another one from our friend wrong Friedman and they just bring this up So we can see it Did you investigate CCR and CR rates with regard to students? Employments i.e. if they're holding a full or a part-time job. I Can certainly address that one a Fed if you'd like me to So, you know, I think you actually had a great term Brian when you said slicing and dicing the data PDP certainly allows for a lot of that including intersectional approaches to data analysis One of the things that we did not capture as of right yet is employment status within the PDP data ecosystem That is one thing that we actually have realized and most recently about I think two months ago as we all know time flies About two months ago. We actually did We did add that to the files to be able to actually use that or gather that data alongside other information about students So that would be certainly something we can consider for any future reports once we start getting that data from our institutions and data providers Good question and thank you for that answer One a couple of thoughts are coming up right now in the chat and we're going to circle back to a few of them I do want to share one note from Julie Devoe who says at our institution We're seeing a lower credit completion rate this past year because of high rates of withdrawals and incompletes as we return to in-person learning So I just wanted to share that and if either of you Ben or if you want to if you want to comment on that or not I think yes, certainly during the semester like Afet talked about the spring semester There were quite a few policies that were put in place that were quite flexible around students because of what was occurring And potentially understanding what occurred then and then also what may have occurred past then in regards to a return to in-person learning As a result potentially of that So that's certainly something to consider in in any report that we do that really does focus on the COVID impact of car and CCR or any other metrics in PDP Thank you, thank you We have a question that came in via Twitter and I want to make sure I understand the question correctly But we're looking at higher ed dives report on your report and higher ed dive points out that students are Based on these numbers, they're not likely to graduate in four years In fact, they're not likely to graduate in five just based on the credit achievement that they're getting right now Can you speak to a bit about that and maybe maybe forecast a little bit or just comment on how it works Absolutely. Yes, I think even before this report We had numbers that we were seeing students didn't graduate not all of them, right? But maybe half in four years or even five years and that's why increasingly Most reports most research focuses on six year Completion or a tier completion. So we had we knew that that was happening. The good thing about this report shows that Perhaps it starts very early in the first year We can see where it's going and that's where support can start in the first year, right? That's the as they are enrolled again completion rates They haven't touched for a very long time. We look at it year after year But we're not able with those rates to help the students because the students are gone already in the cohort But this shows perhaps they are starting very slowly I think one of the articles was saying that the title was like that and and that's why this report shows where it starts And that's why these metrics are for practitioners to step in Good good the crucial first year. Yeah, a real chance to intervene and we have to do it now Given given what you're saying Along a similar line, we have a question from Amanda Knight Which is more of a solution question Where do you find the greatest disparity with a room for improvement among a population in the report? I want to say a couple of things on that, you know, I mentioned earlier that Woman had higher rate than men, but I think we would like our institutions Go even further. Maybe there are sub populations among women's female students that actually have the lower We don't have that data right now Maybe there are student parents, right student parents are more likely to be women So there might be even disparities that we are not seeing in this report But it may exist and hopefully institutions are looking at those things further what we see that disparity is by race ethnicity and I think there is a lot can be done again This practitioners can really use this data looking at the course level data If these are there courses that are that most students are not completing Especially if there are courses that a certain sub population of students are not completing What is going on there so they can actually analyze that and again step in in the first year And while those students are still enrolled Good good question, by the way really good question I want to be thinking about this Amanda I think for the rest of the hour effect most of us for the next few years And thank you effect We have a question from Henning Fung Who that well, I'm gonna give this a little more time to seek so it's a it's a rich one Is the composition of race ethnicity in first year students similar to the composition in the US population? Or is there any race ethnicity that has higher or lower attendance rate overall? Did you want yeah, I can certainly answer that I believe there are some points in the report where we actually do call out ends But we did focus more on percentages as a part of that and yes, we do know that there are disparities in Race ethnicity and just those who may enter into post-secondary education That certainly is something that we are aware of that was not the focus of the report It was really looking at at those students who actually are within their first year Do we see with those disparities not necessarily looking at those disparities that exist between? Between groups that maybe are enrolling in post-secondary education I think that's an a really important point and not something we shouldn't focus on but it was just not the focus of this report Thanks, that makes sense. That makes sense And and Yang thank you for the really good question We have another question again people are really all over this which is great. It's what you want our good friend and writer supporter and one-time guest Tom Hames has one of his classic questions Are there any controls for age and what about semester start summer versus fall versus spring and What about ratios of support staff versus students at institutions? That's a lot to think about. I actually want to answer maybe to the very last question and maybe Benjamin You can then you can talk a little bit about the outcomes by age This in terms of support staff and Versus students at institution We we're not looking at that in this data, but it is a great question because That's what I would call System conditions right and that's something we should pay attention We should have data where whenever it's possible. Maybe institutions would have that data and Hopefully one day we will have that data because it's not just what is going on what students are doing It's it's again what is going on at the institution in terms of the support staff instead of there And there is so that is important point That's there are many other things that again I would call system conditions that hopefully will have data one day to look at those how that impacts student outcomes But in this particular Report we don't have it I see this is always a problem when you publish good research is that people can be asking you to do more of it That's that's always always a good sign Yeah, and I can certainly address the age question that I believe was being brought up So one of the things that we did notice and it's I think it's really great to actually look at is you can look at our age Grouping so we do 20 and younger older than 20 to 24 and then older than 24 as points of comparison And if you actually look at kind of the aggregate level of all first-time first year I mean you see pretty consistent CCR rates But then again with the power of PDP we're actually able to potentially cross that with another variable you actually see that at kind of the cross level about 76 percent, but then if you look at first time in college and Parse that by those three age groups. You actually see some vast differences So although 20 and younger are still at about 76 percent when their first time in college Those are between 20 to 24 when their first time in college drop from about 76 percent to about 67 percent those older than 24 again at the Aggregate level there at about 76 percent, but then if you only look at first time in college They're dropping to about 70 percent So you do see somewhere between kind of six to about eight percent drop Just simply if you look at that one that subgroup of first time in college Instead of just looking at all first time in their first year So really one of those great parts that we're talking about in this report is looking at those Bariables in combination to make sure that what you're seeing at the aggregate level isn't masked when you actually look at things in combination And that's really just focusing on CCR similar pattern that we see for car rates as well that typically Those in the 20 to 24 range and older than 24 also show a decline in car rates And you can also look at that across part-time and full-time students. So yes, we definitely did examine age I believe there was also a second question and by the time I finished answering the first I don't know if it can pop back up. I tried to jot it down, but I'm not that fast What about semester start? Yeah, the report really did limit itself to focusing on fall starters Uh-huh. No, sorry my is my memory going wrong because of the first question. I had to answer and use up all my brain power We did not look separately at the outcomes by the turn start But all of them whether they started in fall summer They and spring they are all there. So 1920 means full 19 starters So it's full. Yes. Yes Thank you. And those are great clarifying questions Tom and and thank you both for for For showing us how this how this fits into a little bit accomplished We have another great question from Lynn Sibulski. Hello, Lynn. Good to see you here Lynn asks, can you share a few examples of what had been your personal? Whoa? Oh my god standout moments when reviewing the new reports Curious about your personal revelations here. I can say one thing that What we saw transfer students credit completion ratio being higher Then first time ever in college at this for this particular cohort. That's what we saw here. That's the um That was my moment. We were like, oh, we we perhaps we didn't expect it. That would be one thing for me So that's so you were expecting Much lower for transfer students similar or lower. Yes. Yeah Yeah, so this is this is actually this is a good thing that uh transfer students. It's like they've learned college. Yes How are you ben? Yeah, I certainly think that it was not only great to see that the credits that students are attempting on average You do have students getting um, two-thirds or above that, you know, that's pretty solid But then what really um shocked me scared me Worried me. Um, all of those words is when you see subgroups that are potentially closer to 50 or 55 percent meaning Um, of potentially the credits they attempt. They are only getting somewhere around half Um, it was certainly something I think we thought might uh come out in the data It's not something we wanted by any means, but we definitely thought that might occur in the data And unfortunately it did happen for certain some groups of students. We really do see Close to about 50 percent, which is is quite worrisome. And that's mostly black and native american men, right? Right and to believe it. Yeah, if you also look at full-time versus part-time And so if you parse that or cross that um, you see that so for example, um, I believe if you look at Uh black or african first time in college part-time students those that's one group That's also at about 50 to 55 percent 55 percent. Sorry. Um, ccr rates Okay, okay Those are first of all, Lynn. That's a great question that everyone should emulate whenever we have a really impressive data rich And a powerful study like this, but also, um, those are those are great responses. Thank you both Fett and Ben Our wonderful supporter our great friend in Connecticut proxies at a risk in Asks have any of you data on first-year students with disabilities? completion or considered So I can probably handle that if you'd like me to so this actually falls under the same category as the earlier question about employment status Um, the pdp data ecosystem is rather rich But that is one thing we just recently added as a metric that we're trying to capture From our institutions to be able to cross that with some of these other variables It makes sense. Good question. And that's a question. We'll probably see more and more people working on that Um, thank you, Roxanne. And we hope you're well Roxanne We have another question from Henning, uh, which is uh about majors any difference in percentage progress by major Or course of study in general I think Ben may be, um Able to address that I'll just briefly say that we do have results by major We didn't so much see the differences by major But we saw across two-year four-year institutions. That's it That's more differences we saw really can you say a bit more about that? I can certainly pick up on the institution type. Um, yeah, certainly the major Um, we didn't get down to kind of the level of a two-digit cip code or something like that at At that point there is some analysis at very high level major categories within the report But we all we do did see some shifts per institution type If you look at some of the analysis for both ccr and car You do see changes in both of those rates per institution type. So We see something like for a private four-year something about 86 percent for ccr But then when at public four years closer to about 81 percent and then at public two years closer to about 70 percent So a gap of about 16 percent potentially depending on which institution type you're looking at as points of comparison So you do see that Especially between a private four-year and a public two-year correct. Yeah Oh, well, that's that's another I'd say lin. That's another. Whoa moment right there At least for me And we also have another question from uh, rachel rush more low. Hello rachel and she asks Did findings look at differences in course delivery method as online versus in person or hybrid So that's something uh, we have it in our future plans We mentioned it that the very end of the report that would be um, That's also really great a great data element that we have in pdp But we have not looked at it for this particular in this particular report Uh, and it's it's it's going to matter a great deal, especially when we look at the next year, right? Yes In the chat, uh, christine will fleisenberg responds to my note by saying I'd argue that community colleges are leading the way in understanding and learning about the needs and talents of today's students I agree. They're tremendous tremendous work Thank you christine So friends if you have more questions and more comments again, just use the uh, the you know hit the q&a button Or if you want to join us on stage, you can tell that afed and ben and even me are all very nice So we're welcome to join us on stage. We like We also have a running debate going um about a couple of data questions. So George and christine everybody involved in that if if you want to shape that into a question Let me know and or join us on stage and we can raise that up One thing, sorry brian, I just want to jump in about kind of the the two year Idea and I think one thing we didn't get to maybe throw out at the beginning that myself and afet did talk about is Really this data is very much intentional in looking at the entirety of post-secondary education and not thinking at that one level of post-secondary Education is the cause necessarily that you think more in kind of an ecological model or hierarchy model that all of these things combine Right, so it's not necessarily just the student that we need to be focusing on it Maybe the student at that institution within that state that we need to think about and really that's what the report is meant to really Advocate for is asking the why and why does it exist? Why do we see these numbers as potentially? All these policies these procedures these things that are going on that may actually cause this So definitely not my point was certainly not to say You know two year institutions are are not doing a good job. That's certainly not what we were saying We were just saying this is what we're seeing in the numbers and and for practitioners for researchers to try to figure out why I've had I don't know if you had anything else you wanted to amend or clarify it in that point Absolutely. No great points I would say this would be also a good reason for cities counties and states to actually Support community colleges to a legitimate higher level, but that that's that's me opining. I'm sorry not from your study Um, we had a follow-up question Again from aila moore And aila asks I understand there wasn't identification based on declared majors I wonder if undecided students identified Also was faculty status identified adjuncts versus tenure track or tenured Let me I'll answer the second question then if that um, so what I think is great is that we're understanding that Where the post-secondary data partnership needs to go is things that we are actually currently in the process of doing Understanding the employment status of the instructor whether what rank they are as well as whether they are full-time or adjunct Is again another thing that we just recently added to the pvp data submission And it's great to hear that that actually is going to be useful for our institutions researchers practitioners Based on all these questions. So it's great that we we've recently added that and we hopefully will be getting that data in From our our providers shortly Once again, you're being punished by success More and more work a good question And and of course that it's a huge huge internal external policy questions Around that we have um, let me bring on stage. Uh, julie devoe if I haven't mispronounced your name Julie, please correct me if I have That's me. That's correct. Thank you. Sorry. I tried to type my question. It was too long. So um, I don't need to be too wordy but um, I was really interested in this study because I spent the morning working with a student who is now You know an academic probation because of course completion, right and it came out of Like coming out of covet our data. I can imagine my institution's data in this pdp will be blown to pieces because of Generous incompletes generous pass fails You could have less credits and still be considered a full-time student like the paradigm of which we were working under for What it meant to complete courses on time Was was really shifted in 2020 that bled until last year and it's bleeding until now because somebody got behind There it's maybe just now that they're getting flagged for not being on progress like towards graduation So I can imagine you go to run this for 2020 2021 You're going to see some really different things because the underpinning of like being a full-time student I think a lot of the institution's changed So i'm curious about like You talked about a lot of factors that you're going to be considering the next go around But there's a massive I'm curious about How you're going to talk about like it's going to show up in really weird ways Thank you Julia good question And afat. What do you think? Oh, absolutely And we are going probably discuss the results in that context and in pdp We have a advisory group from With representatives from different types of institutions We'll definitely consult them to and please send us your feedback or suggestions what you see In your institution We'll we'll look at the results from from that perspective. Yes in that context. Yeah, thank you Thank you Julie And again, if you're if you're new to the forum, that's obviously an example of a video question And thank you afat for the for the very nice answer. We have a couple of more Questions about the study and then we need to look ahead the future a bit more This is one from adam moxel who says can you better define first time transfer in? For example our traditional age students with significant dual credit for high school consider first time in college Here i'll put that back up in the screen so you can see it You know, so if you have significant if you have lots of ap credit for example with that Would you be considered first time or transfer in I guess is a question This is i'll say just a couple of things maybe uh ben you can add to that. This is This is how institutions define them And I believe Yes, that's their definition. I know that some institutions may consider students who who who come With 12 credits for example as a first time students Others require fewer than that. So that would be really up to the institution We have certain things if they were currently that Dueling all students they would not be first time they This is after high school graduation Okay, okay, so when I entered college as a with enough hippie credit to make me a sophomore So I'd still be a first-year student It would be up to the institution I got I got adam good question. Thank you and afa. Thank you for for this answer Ella has a follow-up question here Um, which is how would you recommend institutions attempt to establish a benchmark of ccr for students? That's a very good Very good question benchmark could be uh, was it international average or state average? We don't have it in the report, but actually pdp institutions can receive it By different and they can set that benchmark or they can um How that to what they want to choose to compare themselves is the state benchmark better for them Or similar institutions How do you want to do that? And you know, I I want to mention that again Looking at the data in relative terms is fine We say which group is doing better than the other But then we should also look at it in absolute terms if the group has even If a group has 55% Uh credit completion ratio Is it good enough? It doesn't matter whether it's better than the other groups itself That's the point I would make really to look at in absolute terms as well And also to look at within that group. Uh, what are the intersectional experiences? Again, not just looking these broad populations that a woman women are doing better No, maybe there might be many other things going on within that group actually Excellent excellent Well, let's let's take this. Uh, let's turn this around a bit and look ahead Uh, I just wanted to ask a quick a quick question myself, which is If we consider this to be the class of you know, 2026 or so, it's not going to be the class of 2026 Um, a bunch of them are going to take till 2027 2028 maybe 2030 to graduate So, I mean based on this data are Is the news for students as well as for institutions that the uh, the four-year graduation mark is not really a Something to expect a lot of students doing but that's going to take a lot longer Yes, but we have also heard and I want to mention something that our suggestion Is not that every student should be expected or required to take 30 credits within their first year We understand that there might be students who choose to do that who choose to take Fewer credits because uh, they have other Life responsibilities. They have family. They have work responsibilities So but we do want to you know, bring attention to that saying, uh, perhaps the recommendation could be The first year is difficult. You you're hesitating. You might be hesitating how you will navigate the system maybe fewer credits but To the extent possible really, um, catch up with those credits increase those And also credit completion ratio. It's not signing up for 30 credits and also how students are completing Actually getting them done. Yeah That's a good point I'm If if we can just I know you you you've analyzed meticulously the recent past I know it's hard to switch around and look at look ahead to forecast. It's difficult. Uh, but I'm curious. Do you think that? If this pattern Continues or it deepens based on covet. Do you think five ten years out from now? How do you think this will change higher red? I mean For example, do you think as you just said effect, do you think we will see more and more students are effectively part-time? Or I mean Ben, maybe do you think we'll just continue to see the enrollment decline Continue to decline as as fewer and fewer people are able to Get credit in a timely fashion So I think part of our our mind affects discussion was really acknowledging that students have agency And that we need to make sure that they are able to Register there's no policies in place that potentially prevent them from hitting the ccr car rates that we think they should be Um, and that's really important is is that enablement of the student to be able to actually do that if they're If that's possible. Um, so I think that's an important thing to consider And yes, maybe there is a going to be a change in how we think of the typical enrollment within post-secondary education And how do we actually understand that within the data? And make sure that we're addressing and acknowledging potential equity gaps within Between groups as well Fascinating. I'm sure if there was anything you also were thinking about with that Um, I just wanted to mention that hopefully also the metrics This early momentum metrics what we call again leading indicators might be really helpful Uh, to improve actually these results again the focus more early on how How the completion of course is going on not so much Of course completion rate. We will look at the completion rate But also equal attention to these early momentum metrics I think I think this is going to have a powerful impact on campus decision-making and strategy Um friends, we're almost out of time and I want to make sure everyone gets a chance to ask their questions So this is your your your last chance. Oh, sorry S I can vary and please forgive me if I've mangled that wonderful name Asks any thoughts about changes in student success by gender in the post rovers's wade future I don't think that the report could certainly speak to that. Um, I think that would potentially be a conversation kind of one of those side conversations to take Some of this data and potentially think about For sure there and that's really the purpose of the report is to start people asking those questions And start investigating What things like I talked about at those different levels might be changing that might not only Kind of be affected upwards, but also so to speak downwards and inwards So I think that's a great question that stems potentially from the data that we have in this report But we certainly can't speak to that or answer that question well I appreciate your your candidness and uh, s that's uh, that's a great great question I just shared in the chat a blog post I did on this subject mostly drawing on the work of other people Especially the great joellen parker But it may be that you all finding in this report that women are ahead of men by a few points That that may well go backwards We had some institutional questions that came up as as well Roxanne had a question earlier, which was how are higher rate institutions able to opt in or join future research studies along these lines so I think really We try to provide this data publicly, but yes, like afet had talked about there are benchmarking capabilities that are exclusive to people Who actually are part of pdp or the post-secondary data partnership? So that's certainly something that you can reach out to To us at the nsc to say hey I'm really interested in being a part of the post-secondary data partnership to be A part of this wealth of the data as well as to be able to use this wealth of data so Certainly reach out to us a student clearing house website. There's if you search post-secondary data partnership There's lots of information about it as well No, thank you And and I think you can see that you have some fans here who want to Who want to support and participate as they can and speaking of which? Rachel comes back with this question. When is the next pdp insights report coming out? And which and which metrics do you plan to focus on? very soon again We do need to wait a little bit for the full years of data to come in for 2020 and 2021 and as soon as we have Because there is their full starters their spring starters within a year So hopefully within in a few months from now. We we should be able to do that Oh good and any of the Metrics you talked about a couple of them and people have asked you for a few more But do you have any more that you want to add in terms of metrics that you're hoping to get to? We have a few we mentioned yes at the end of the report We have gateway course completion metric that we are collecting that might be one And also these online face-to-face hybrid Courses that students take that would be an as I want to look at Excellent excellent In the chat by the way Tom Hamas mentioned that the shaping edu project is doing an oral history project on pandemic teaching So Tom, I would love to learn more about that And if there's anyone there who wants to share it, please we'd be glad to host them because that sounds terrific I have a very selfish question to ask both of you, which is how do we keep up with you too? Um, do we do we follow you on on twitter on linkedin or or where? I'm assuming you both have at least three podcasts to your each Yes, absolutely social media is fine. And we have nscresearchcenter.org Where we post all our reports and publications So that's another way to and post secondary data partnership has its own site at studentquaringhouse.org Oh great great great great Well friends, do you have any more questions that you'd like to add? George you've been going you've been romping around in the chat. Do you have anything that you'd like to pose? Actually, I think we're almost we're just about out of time. Um, so I do want to Raise one one last point which is I think what you've described Is going to give a lot of campus leaders of an individual faculty Information that they can act on in terms of populations they need to direct more resources to And students will deserve more care So I think this research itself should have a real salutary real great beneficial impact on higher education I suspect that was your intent and I'm really really glad that that you could join us Absolutely, and that's what our hope is right at that this this data are actionable and institutions can act on Very good very good. It would help me too by the way I mentioned I started off as a sophomore took me five years to get my undergrad degree So I'm I'm definitely one of those problem data points for all of you Um, well, uh, thank you both so much for coming. Thank you for all this research We're really looking forward to following up on on the next one of these as well as on your future work on equity and data Thank you both so much Thank you. Thank you for all the great questions And discussion Thanks everyone. Thanks brian for hosting very much appreciate it a real pleasure. Thank you effett and thank you ben But don't go away yet friends I have to point you to what we're working on and what's coming up next I do want to second there. Thanks to you for your great questions If you'd like to keep talking about this some of these great questions Like what it's a role of disability or faculty status and this kind of data join us on twitter Just use the hashtag f tte or tweet at me brian alexander or shindig events or pounce on my blog brian alexander.org To keep this conversation going if you'd like to look back into our previous sessions Which covers some of these topics just go to tinyurl.com slash f tf archive And if you want to look ahead to our next sessions again, we've got topics ranging from reimagining education to free speech the climate crisis What the end of rovers is high red rovers is wade means for high red and our community session in the fall Just go to forum dot future of education dot us And if you want to share any of your own work along these lines, please just shoot me a note I'd be glad to share it with everybody else And in the meantime, again, thank you all for your great questions and comments I hope this was really useful for you. It's definitely very useful for me Good luck preparing for a fall semester. Everyone take care of be safe and we'll see you next time online Bye. Bye