 Well, good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the first day of Genetic Genealogy Ireland. My name is Morris Leeson. I'm one of the many volunteers with the International Society of Genetic Genealogy, which is free to join. You're all very, very welcome here. I'd like to thank our sponsors, Family Tree DNA, for sponsoring this two-day lecture series. And we have 12 DNA lectures set up for you that will teach you about every aspect of genetic genealogy. So you're all very welcome. And it gives me great pleasure to introduce our first speaker, Andy Hockwriter. Now, Andy is a genetic genealogist and lecturer who manages multiple DNA surname projects and has successfully applied DNA to trace several related family branches of his own family tree overseas. He instructs continuing education courses in basic and advanced genetic genealogy at two community colleges in Maryland and helped facilitate the genetic genealogy module of the online genealogical research course at Boston University. So to tell us about DNA for beginners and how DNA can be used as a wonderful additional tool for your genealogical research, please give a warm welcome to Andy Hockwriter. Thank you. I don't know, is anybody else hot in here? I'm feeling it, you know, standing up here, the heat sign. I want to welcome you all back to our past conference here. And I want to thank Morris Gleason for inviting me to speak. He may have second thoughts after today, but we'll do the best. So I want to talk about DNA, and especially for beginners. So we're going to talk about some basics. And before I start, I have a confession to make. I have no Irish ancestry. So you can tell by my name, Hockwriter, that's not at all Irish, it actually is German. But on my mother's side, I do have some English and Scottish. So I'm fortunate also in that my mother had two marriages. Her first marriage, she was Canadian, and it was to a Thomas Edgar Wilson. So I was able to track them back to Northern Ireland, and I have had just a wonderful, both a fascinating and frustrating time doing Irish genealogy. The lack of records always kind of promotes the use of DNA so that you can find relatives, where the records are lacking, the DNA may put you on the right path. So the thing about genealogy, depending on how long you've been doing it, there's been a traditional path. And that is using your records and documentation, prony and such, talking to your older family members, relatives who have stories about where they came from or who was who. And that comprises a part of the toolkit for us as genealogists. So what's happened? Well, DNA has happened. It's gotten more and more sophisticated so that we can use that as a part of our DNA toolkit. And it's the application of a DNA test, the genetics to finding relatives and genetic relationships. So I'll tell you a little bit about my personal projects. I was able, using the Bishops' Archives in Germany, to trace my paternal ancestors back to about 1650 using documentation. And after that, I did visit the village my grandparents came from. And I met relatives, but they all came down through a sister of my grandfather. And therefore, there were no hookwriters. There were hand hours and prems and other family names, but no hookwriters left in this village. And even though I'm meeting the relatives, I'm still very kind of just heartened that I could not find a hookwriter, somebody with that name, in the village. So they've been missing for a while from my matches and such. So I started a YDNA SERP project for the hookwriters at Family Tree DNA. And I tested my relatives. And yes, we were all related. And there was no question there. But as I tested more people in the United States and across Europe, I tested hookwriters in Hungary, Slovakia, Austria, Germany, none of them were related. They were completely different haplogroups. And so there was no common origin. I found out that we all originated along different lines. So I did not find, I still using DNA did not find any hookwriter relatives up to a point. And I'll get back to my story of woe and frustration and finally enlightenment towards the end of this briefing. So the popularity of DNA has been promoted by a lot of things, television shows, back to your past. The scientific discoveries keep coming. And you can't pick up the newspapers without seeing something new happening in the field of genetics. And it's affected us in many ways, you know, because people are concerned about privacy. They're concerned about ethics and the law starts to change, you know, to protect your privacy and that. So some of that is very good. But what really drove the popularity was the new direct-to-consumer kits that were available for people to buy and to do, you know, take a swab or spit in a tube at home and send it in. So how about a show of hands, how many people in this audience have DNA tested? I think that's about 100%. I don't think I should ask who hasn't tested. So you're in the beginner class. Okay. I know there's a lot of questions always about, okay, I got my DNA test. Now what? What's the next step? And I'll tell you right now if you keep coming to these lectures over the next two days, there are other speakers here who will talk about the different types of DNA and the techniques that you use to find relatives and how to take that next step. But today I am just going to talk about DNA for beginners in some kind of a foundation for all of us. Well, did you know that you have two family treats? You have your genealogical family treat. And this is all your ancestors that you, whether you can identify them or not, but if there were a name in this chart for every little box, those are all your ancestors who contributed to you coming into existence today. Well, the other type of family treat is the genetic family treat. And these are the ancestors that you got your DNA from that who passed DNA. And not all of them, not all your ancestors were able to pass DNA because some of it is limited and it becomes, it just disappears. So in the chart, the gray areas might represent your genetic ancestors or family treat. And the genetic treat is a subset of your genealogical treat. And you can have two siblings who have exactly, of course, the same genealogical treat, but they do not have the same genetic treat. They got a different set of DNA from your parents than you did. And there will be differences between you and even a sibling, a close sibling. So as I mentioned earlier, some answers tend to drop off and it may be different between two siblings, what DNA they inherited and what they didn't. Now just, I don't want to bore everybody with high school biology, but I just find this amazing, you know? I think my old slides used to say around 50 trillion cells and they've gotten more precise. This type of thing, I tell you, if you're a government employee and you're one of those people counting all those individual cells in the human body, I call that job security. That's the, can you imagine, you know, doing that type of thing? The wonder of it all is that we are so similar. And I have, you see different estimates. Some are 99.5% similar. Some are 99.9% similar. I prefer the higher number because it emphasizes the similarity between people. You can look around this room right now and any differences in eye color, hair color, ethnicity and all of that is based on that 1 tenth of 1% of difference in our DNA. Okay, so DNA actually exists in a couple places in our cells. And it exists in the nucleus and then it exists outside the nucleus. So this is a picture of the breakfast I had this morning, the eggs I ate. And that's basically what a cell looks like. You've got the middle part which would be compared to a yolk and that's the nucleus. And then you have this area that might be the white of the egg on the outside. That's the cytoplasm. Within the cytoplasm you have these mitochondria and they're small energy producing organelles that contain its own set of DNA. But most of our DNA is in the nucleus. That's where the chromosomes are located. Something here, okay. So if we're looking at the chromosomes, you know they're in the nucleus of the cell. And if you pull one out and you start to unravel it, you start seeing the double helix. And the double helix of course is made up of rungs like on a ladder. And those are actually pairs of your base pairs that are recognized by the letters A, T, G and C. And you always have the A's pairing with the T's and the G's pairing with the C's. And if you remember back to, we had a little memory jog and that is straight lines with straight lines and curves with curves. So that's how the base pairs line up in your chromosomes. And that's what they're counting when they're looking at what your DNA is. So I mentioned that there's different types of DNA. So within the nucleus, you have men have the Y chromosome. And also there's the other chromosomes that you have which are called autosomes. So those are the 22 other chromosomes that you have besides the sex determining chromosomes. So besides the Y which a man has, a man would have one Y and one X chromosome, females would have two X chromosomes. And I mentioned those little energy producing units outside the nucleus of the mitochondrial. They have a very small structure of base pairs but that's unique type of DNA. And I'll talk about inheritance patterns for all of these also. Now I'd be remiss not to say that there's some things that you should consider before you take a test. And that's what, that's those surprises you're always reading about in the newspaper. You know, basically you got to be prepared for a surprise. And DNA testing can reveal many things, family secrets, somebody's adopted, somebody's illegitimate, your brother's not your brother or your father's not your father and such. Unexpected relationships, you get an email from somebody who said I'm adopted but I think we're half brothers or something like that. Unexpected ethnic makeup, I mean that's for a lot of people, I'm 100% Irish and then you find out you've got some Turkish or Asian or African in there. So always be prepared for the different surprises that can come out. And certain companies will provide medical information to you based on your test. The other thing is you've got to be concerned about exposing your personal information. I mean people are concerned about privacy. All the companies, all the legitimate companies certainly take steps to try to protect you just as well. But how many of us use credit cards or we're on Facebook and they're selling information about our buying habits and such. And lastly is, you know, your DNA is not just your DNA. You share some of that DNA with your siblings, with your cousins, with your parents. And once your DNA is out there, some of that information can inform on other people also. Okay, so what happens when you want to take a DNA test? Since all of you have, you've probably already encountered these documents. The first one they present to you is called the Terms of Service. And that is not a voluntary form. That is, you must sign that or they won't test you. It's telling you what, it's presented to you at the time of purchase. You've got to sign it for them to even develop your DNA. And it sets out their conditions on how they're going to use. Now, they all admit that the DNA is yours, but people worry that it's going to be sold or something to a pharmaceutical company. Well, in this case, all the companies say, okay, we will use your DNA to develop better tools for comparison with shared matches and such. It's the second document that is voluntary that if you want to participate in some kind of medical research or such, that's the form that you release your DNA for. And normally, it's not something to worry about because even if you sign that and you're participating and they sell it to a pharmaceutical, it's not your individual DNA. They aggregate it, I was going to say aggravate it, but they aggregate it and it goes in combined with others. So they're looking at age parameters and such to develop better drugs. And it has been proven that drugs that are developed based on DNA testing are better, they work better and such. So some of this concern is overdeveloped and I wouldn't worry about it. But those are the documents you get when you want to test. Okay, so one of the things I tell people is, you know, there's a lot of companies out there and they ask me, what's the best? Well, I tell them there's not a best company. It's always based on what your priorities are, what your objectives are, and that's how you choose a company. Now, right out here today is, in fact, this conference is hosted by Family Tree DNA. And that tends to be for a company that is for more serious people. I think you get better responses from your shared matches. They also offer, in addition to your autosomal test, the comprehensive why DNA testing and mitochondrial testing. So that's not offered at the other companies. All the companies offer what's called autosomal and I'll explain that in the coming slides. So another one that's out there is 23andMe. They started with an emphasis on medical testing, providing your medical carrier status on certain genes and certain SNPs or mutations. And you actually can go there and only take a test for ancestry, your ancestry so you learn about your ethnicity and such. Or you combine that and get the ancestry test plus the medical information and you pay a little bit more. Okay, ancestry. Ancestry is known for their huge database. I mean, there's somewhere between 15 and 20 million kids in their database. So this is for people who want to maintain a family tree, make connections and figure out of the common ancestors with your matches. And you might have better hits. But I tell people that it's a U.S. company. So all, you know, not all, but a big majority of people are U.S. And if you don't have colonial roots in the U.S., like me, my grandparents were all pretty recent arrivals in the United States. I don't get that many. I'm looking for comparisons and shared matches in Europe. And so some of the other companies might offer you better matching in those terms. Family tree, as I said earlier, they're here. They're building their tremendous database of Irish results. And I don't see Martin in the audience, but there are people here who run that with Morris. And it's helping a lot of us, not just here in Ireland, but those U.S. Irish people who have Irish ancestry. OK, another one is MyHeritage. And they're kind of a, I want to say a newcomer, but they're like ancestry. Ancestry also, besides their DNA, they offer digital documents that you can look at, census records and birth records and such. MyHeritage started out the same way. It's actually a company that's based in Israel. And the founder started it to help the Jewish people who had European ancestry. So they tend to have a bigger European group in their database. And they're actually giving ancestry a good run for their money because they came out with some excellent tools to analyze your DNA. And it's up the game for all of them. So, you know, these are all legitimate companies that have good tools. Now, a British company is living DNA. And they're the new kid on the block. But their ancestry is based on the study that was done of the people of the British Isles. And what impressed me was the fact that they actually get it down to maybe county level that some of your DNA has originated out of. And like I mentioned earlier, my father's side was German. But my mother's side, her father came out of Bristol and they were Bryces. And they're all based in Somerset and that. So for me, it was interesting to get that side of my family DNA. And I'll mention more about ethnicity and how underdeveloped it is still. OK, so what do you get when you take a test? And you'll probably all know that you get your raw data. And what is that? That's all those positions on your chromosomes and the values. So you can see up here, there's those base pairs, T's and G's and C's. That's all the specifics that you have. And it's in your raw data file. So you can download that and actually look at it. But it's not easy. It's alphabet soup. And that's what you use the company to help sort out and make sense of. The other thing is that you get either your ethnicity, which comes from your autosomal results, or you get deep ancestry, which comes from Y DNA or mitochondrial DNA. And that is where do your ancestors come from? It's a good guess on where they come to from. But the most important thing you get is a match list. Your relatives on how much DNA you have with them. That's where the gold is. That's what you want to work and figure out what the relationships are with these matches. And where is that common ancestor that passed down DNA to you and that match? And so you get a match list, something like this, that tells you how many matches you have at that company. OK, so now we're going to talk a little bit about the different types of DNA. And the Y DNA, as I said, is inherited by a man. And it's strictly along the male ancestry. It goes back along one line. And it traces back to an original founder. And it's passed down generation after generation from father to son. OK, so the Y chromosome has a lot of base pairs. So they can select which ones have some variation and then compare it to other males and see how close you are related to them. And it can only be used to trace the male line. So if you're a female, you can still participate by having your father, a male brother, or a paternal male cousin test to get your Y DNA. Now the unique thing about Y is that it's a standalone chromosome. It doesn't recombine with anything else. So it lasts a long time. It can get passed down many years with very minor mutations. And you do see some mutations in it. Now, and that works very well if you have a surname project. Because that Y chromosome is coming down along with that surname in a traditional surname when you're passing from father to son, the surname as well as the Y DNA. OK, so when we're looking at Y, there's actually two types of tests that you can take. One is called a stir test and another is called a SNP test. Now the stir, that is short for short tandem repeat. And SNP is a single nucleotide polymorphism, which is actually just a fancy term for a mutation. So think of SNPs as mutations. OK, so here's a Y DNA. And you'll see that this pattern, this repetition of the pattern G8TA is repeated there. There are certain sections of the Y DNA chromosome that has repetitions going on of those base pairs. So in this case, this repetition is repeated three times. So it has a value of three. We say that the stir value at that location is three. Now, stirs are used to predict your haplotype, those other people that you are related to. And it usually represents a more recent evolution. Those stirs might differ even between a father and a son, something rather than a stir value there of three. The son had an additional one, so he has a value of four. That can happen, but the more closely you're related, they say it's a genetic distance. And if you have a genetic distance, no differences, a genetic distance of zero, that means you're very tightly related. Now, the other type of marker or DNA test that they have is called the SNP. And a SNP only happens at one location on the chromosome. And that is a change that happens. And so you can see here that you have a C and a G in the top row. And that morphs or mutates to a T and an A. And those represent branching of your Y chromosome. And the SNPs represent what we call haplogroups. And I'll explain that in just a minute also. But those are ancient origins. Those are where you have this mutation and it just represents another branch of the Y DNA tree. It happens infrequently, but there's a lot of testing now going on that does show that some SNPs can be more recent. So they're finding more use for this. They're identifying newer SNPs that have happened maybe in the last couple hundred years rather than a couple thousand years or 10,000 years. OK, so when you get your results back for the Y, this is what you're going to see. This is, I want to make sure I don't mess with, ah, there, OK. So you see that that's the position where those repetitions occur. That's one position, that's another and another. And they count up how many repetitions. So in this case, there were 13 here, there were 25 repetitions there. This is what the testing company compares to other men to see how close you are. And they may look at this and say, OK, you know, you have, you are this closely related to this other person based on the number of differences in this table. Now, one of the things I'll mention, this is a table with, I believe, 67 markers tested. You can test for 37, which would go down through, what, about this? That's, OK, and have only 37 or 67 or up to 111 positions. And if you take what's called the big Y, that's like the ultimate Y test, you'll actually have up to 700 STIRs provided to you. Right now, the comparisons are only go up to about the 111 level to compare you to a different person. OK, so this is then what you get when they're comparing and it tells you who your matches are. So in this case, the names are blanked out here, but this is somebody, I, whoops, I hit too many, I'm sorry, this is somebody who I represent that says 67 markers. We, in 67 markers, I have no differences with this person. So actually, this is my brother, so we have no differences there. This one is probably a first cousin, we have a distance of one. That means that somewhere along this, well, this was 111 markers, so somewhere along there we have one difference. And those are very tightly packed, but you can tell how closely you're related to somebody based on these genetic distances. OK, so now the other type of markers are these mutations, or SNPs as we call them, and they're telling you about what ancient group you belong to, your males, where they descended from on the journey out of Africa and populating the world. So every time, as I mentioned, you had a mutation occur, it divided and turned into a new branch of the tree. So A divided, and then you had A and B, and then B divided, and then you had A, B, and C. So that type of thing was going on through history, and these are determined by what they call a terminal SNP. What's the last mutation that you have? So here is, this looks like it could be a pedigree tree, but it's a pedigree tree of the different types of haplogroups. So you go all the way back in history, and the original Adam, or procreator of all men, you know, lived in Africa. The branches broke down over the years, and look at that, about 65,000 years ago, 45,000 years ago, 40, and some of the more recent ones. I'm an E1B, so I'm up here, it's an older branch, but ours are more recent, and most of Europeans are R1As, or R1Bs, and you might wind up there, or under another type of haplogroup. And they're designated using letters and such. So as I mentioned, each mutation then divides into a branch, and those branches are sometimes called subclades. And here's my branch, and you can see how complicated that gets. They're adding letters and numbers out, and now they've kind of taken an abbreviated approach. What that E1B, yada, yada, yada represents is actually my termosnip, which is E-V13. V13 is the end of that, E is my haplogroup. Plain as mud, is it? Okay, so as I mentioned, haplogroups represent the genetic group that you descended from. And there's actually a paternal haplogroup that everybody has, who's a male, and a maternal haplogroup that everybody has, both males and females. The maternal haplogroup represents your mother's side and how they descended over time. Okay, so as I mentioned earlier, they're represented by different letters and numbers, and they're defined by the mutations that broke those branches off. Okay, so the trouble, though, all the tests had their advantages and disadvantages. Okay, the why is great for certain things like studying surnames and such. It helps to break down some of those paternal questions. You've got a very common name like Wilson or Smith, and you want to know, all right, what branch of Wilson's do I belong to? There are studies out there that have projects out there that have studied these things and can place you in the group that you belong to, back to maybe an early ancestor, and cut through a lot of that for you. One of the things that Ken revealed, as I mentioned earlier, is family secrets, and that is what they used to call NBPs, or NPEs, non-paternal events. Well, that's kind of a mystery, what is a non-paternal event? Now they're using the term MPE, which is a misattributed parentage, and that is, all right, my father's not my father, it's somebody else. Okay, limitations is that women cannot take the test, and they have to find a qualified or a suitable tester to do it for them, and many lines have only daughters, so we call that daughtering out, but you lose that Y chromosome, and you have to work your way back to an earlier ancestor, and then work collateral lines coming down to find somebody that has the Y that you need. Okay, mitochondrial, that's the other DNA in your cell. That goes back strictly along the maternal line, and it is passed down from the mother to all children. So both men and women have mitochondrial DNA, and though you can take that test and you can compare your maternal ancestry with each other. So it has a unique DNA structure, it's circular, and it's made up of three sections, the coding region, and two hypervariable, which means fast-changing areas, and they have different degrees of testing, but you want to take the full sequence test if you want to do anything with genealogy, and it's only really, it's a very small structure, compare that to the 57 or 59 million base pairs in the Y, there's only 16,569 base pairs in the mitochondrial structure, so you want to have all of them tested so that when you compare yourself to somebody else, you're looking at every one of those locations. Now fathers don't pass down any of their mitochondrial, it only comes from the mothers, and it doesn't recombine and mutates very slowly, in fact it mutates slower than Y DNA does, and therefore it's used a lot of times with this to determine the ancient DNA of some of these skeletons that they find, because there's a lot of it and it hasn't mutated. The same thing with them, you have a pedigree of the different mitochondrial haplogroups or maternal haplogroups going down, I'm an H, so I'm down here, but you could be any one of those, and they evolved over centuries or millennium from a, and you might call it the female Eve in Africa, and as the mutations occurred, the new branches broke off from each other, so that's what I am. So when you look at your results for the mitochondrial, you'll get something like this, and they have reference sequences that they compare it to. Now this is the point where I say, okay, depend on your testing company to give you this information, you're not going to go through all those 16,000 results, you're going to look at something like this that tells you what they compare you to the reference model, which was T, and I'm a C, so I have a change there. Now sometimes the reference model didn't have a value, I have a C at that location, and then sometimes the reference sequence has a value, and I have none. So this is what they do to everybody, and then they compare you and they can tell you how close you're related to this other person. A mitochondria, because of that small number, does not have the variety or the variability that they can compare people to. You might be related to a match, no genetic distance, a genetic distance of zero. That means you match on all aspects, but you don't know if your common ancestor is 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago. That's how slowly it changed. So it's a much harder DNA test to use for genealogical purposes. So the two types of reference models are the Cambridge reference sequence and what's called the reconstructed sapiens reference sequence. And if you test at family tree DNA, it gives you both. So like I mentioned, there are advantages and disadvantages to mitochondrial tests. Basically, you're looking at taking a full test, so you've got all of those. It will tell you your haplogroup, both men and women have mitochondria, so they can both test and compare your results to each other. But as I mentioned, the distance, you won't know how far back that common ancestor, much harder to identify. Okay, so the popular one now is autosomal. All the test companies give this type of test. And sometimes it's called a cousin test because it involves everybody, not just back along the male line here or the female line, but all those aunts and uncles and cousins in between. Okay, so this is the DNA that is in the 22 autosomes or the 22 other chromosomes that you have. And that represents a great amount of our DNA, about 95%. They don't test at all. They test various numbers and then do the comparison. Now, characteristic-wise, you get 50% of your DNA from each parent. And it does recombine, so that can really throw off a lot of things. As I mentioned earlier, you may be very different from your sibling. But this is the most popular test now. The recombination can throw it in. You want to phase your data if you can test a parent or a paternal cousin to help you identify what side that DNA comes from. So this is a kind of an illustration of all these ancestors and how it mixes coming down to you. Advantages are it provides the widest range of connections or relationships to you, both men and women have autosomal DNA, so they compare the results. And the disadvantage or the issues that you have to work with is that it recombines randomly. So you have to identify whether or not a relationship is on the paternal side or maternal side. And it doesn't last forever. You get a certain amount from your ancestors, but it dissipates over a number of generations. So you go back five, six, seven generations, and there'll be ancestors that you got none of their DNA from. Okay, X is very unique because of the inheritance pattern. It's different than the other, it's different between males and females. They have different. So males get one X from their mother, females get two, one from each parent. And it's not the same as a maternal or mitochondrial test. It's a completely different test. So a lot of people confuse the two, but don't do that in your own mind, okay? And men inherit their X and they pass it on to their daughter, but not to their sons, okay? Okay, so this is the male pattern. And as you can see, he's getting the X from his mother's side. So you can look at this pattern and determine what ancestors would have passed some X DNA down to you if you're a man, okay? And one of the helpful things is to look at your pedigree and then identify those ancestors that, according to that chart, will pass the DNA to you. And now here's the female, and they're getting an X from their father and from their mother. So they got more ancestors that they can determine where that X came from. And again, use a pedigree chart to determine those. Okay, very quickly on ethnicity. You get your ethnicity from the autosomal test, but you get deep ancestry from your Y and mitochondrial. They're based on what's called ancestry-informative markers. These are SNPs or mutations that have different frequencies with different regions of the world so they can determine that. Now, I will say that ethnicity is nearly impossible to predict. They're getting better by revising a lot of the reference populations, but each company has different ways of determining your ethnicity. They use different reference populations, different matching thresholds, and different algorithms to determine that. And it's constantly changing. Those who have tested at ancestry probably have seen that. All of a sudden, your ethnicity changes to a vast degree because they've improved it. Okay, so with my own research, I was able to test somebody from Buffalo, New York, and I found out that his ancestors came from Tonnesburg, which is near my grandfather's village, and the research back into the records showed them connecting in Moosebac, an ancestor in the 1700s who moved from Moosebac to this other village. And when I went to the phone book, I found this hook writer. They spell it T-H-E-R, I spell it T-E-R, so I was not hitting that because I just did not think of the variety of ways it could be spelled. And so here's what comparison you can see how close we are. These are my cousins that I found who are hook writers and we are seventh cousins. Autosomal will not show that relationship. This was only through the why that showed that. So I want to thank everybody for this suffering through my and you don't have to invite me back next year, but thank you very much. Thank you very much, Andy. Now, before you go away, we probably have time for a few questions. Oh, does anybody have any questions for Andy? Yeah, we have a lady here. National Geographic was set up as a scientific test or a scientific project. And initially, Family Tree DNA was the lab that developed everything and you could transfer it and it depends on what kid he took. Afterwards, they brought in a different company Helix and those results do not transfer well into Family Tree DNA. If it's an older kid and it was done by Family Tree, you could transfer it to Family Tree DNA and you get the benefit then of matching. He can look at his other people that he matches with. Okay, yes, you should have gotten some results by the transfer. You doesn't show up as having certain values and you're getting that matching because then you don't have to take another test. Yeah, well, if you want to stop down, I'll be at the booth downstairs and we can pull it up on my laptop and we can take a look at it together. Sure, cool. Anybody else? Michael here, 23andB does a little bit of a chart of Y. That's correct. How does that Y compare with the Y test on MDNA? They come up with your HEPA groups for the Y and the mitochondrial based on SNP testing. It's not comprehensive like they do at Family Tree DNA. So they'll give you maybe even a higher level HEPA group in your subcite but not the deep ancestry that you would get with a comprehensive test. They'll do the stir testing at Family Tree DNA which gives you very definite results whereas these are the SNPs, the mutations. They'll do a number of them, target ones that kind of predict what happens with your UI input maternally and paternal. But did each one have to come down from a certain extent on the Y type of mutate, put your odds? Yes, and so you might come down this file but you don't have your terminal SNP which is much deeper. And it gives you more granularity when you're comparing to other men and men. They'll tell you you're an E1B and there's millions and millions of E1B people. So it's more of a general prediction of what GERA is. Give an example of that. This will bring me back 4,000 years from the second. Whereas if I do my HEPA-TBNA and I do this Y test that will give me a SNP every 100 years. But that will bring me back to the current standard of the big difference. We had another question. Gentlemen, here we are in the blue. Then James, that'll be the last one. It's an observation. I'd like to photograph what you said with cousins. I've done a similar thing. I've got so many differences from me in the two steps in the shape of Y. And I've got a couple. You have to use a couple Y. Yes. Oh, my God. But we have to discover that there's no other sort of connection between parents. If we do enough cousins right to the side, a couple of them can find together. That's a good point. And they really promote using and adding autosomal to your Y to give you more of that. I've done a few projects and I've done a few projects and I'm surprising the number of them. Yeah, yeah. And that test is the cheapest. They're always on sale. And it adds so much more. And it gets more clarity, certainly, to more recent relationships. And thank you for sharing. We have to call it a day there because we've got people waiting outside to go in for the next lecture, which will be Martin McDowell's Bally-Carrie DNA project. So please can we show our appreciation, Randy Huffriner. Thank you very much. So we'll start here in about two minutes.