 pCalm I'm joined by Benson Nyagaka. He is a political analyst, Karibusana Benzon. Thank you. Also joining me is Kennedy Keegan, youth leader, Karibusana Ken. Thank you very much. Be part of this conversation. The hashtag as always is why in the morning at Y254Channel on Twitter at Ram Aguko on Twitter. On Facebook at Y254Channel and at Ram Aguko. Make sure that you drop in your thoughts. We shall sample them up. As we continue with this conversation this particular Monday morning. Youth and politics starts now. Ken, let me start with you. When we are talking about Parliament, BBI and Parliament, should we continue to pass the building business initiative regardless of the committee and what the committee comes out with? Currently what we are seeing is, I think what is happening is a state of, let's say mistrust, mistrust which is playing out in Parliament. I think BBI as its owners and I think even the owners are not agreeing on some of these things. So even the committee was set up by these guys who came up with the BBI. So whatever is happening is what I call the play which is happening under the table. I think the guys are realizing that wait. So the end goal was maybe to come up with political alliances that will form the next government. But now a mistrust is beginning to build up between the former prime minister and Uru Kenyatta. So the guys are telling their committees and their members, you guys you know what you can hold on. Let's first agree on some of the things then we can move forward. But irregardless there are things which are at play which we need to consider number one. I think there is a court case which is happening considering if the due procedure was followed as far as following the implementation of BBI is concerned. And at the same time the committee has a say. But either way the parliament they are at liberty because once it's passed from the counties the parliament is next. So the only thing which can stop them is the courts. But the committee doesn't have a say. It doesn't have the wait. The question is then what is the relevance of the committee in this whole process because they were supposed to come up with a report and parliament is waiting for that report. Then if parliament can continue without that report then the committee's effectiveness is null and void. Ben. I think that question is quite varied and it raises the question to understand what has happened to the building bridges initiative particularly the president and the former prime minister. We know that building BBI is all about inclusivity. It's all about actually it's a political game because inside the BBI one of the issues there is how can we be inclusive and include all regions in the formation of the new government. That's why this talk about having a premier, having maybe a deputy premier, a president, a deputy president and all these kinds of positions so that we are able to include all regions in our country to the formation of the new government. So that we run away from violence after every elections we have been witnessing a type of violence. But you see now the issue is the two leaders giving us this product are they coming out to tell us what's happening. That's why over the weekend we saw press reports that the former premier and the president they are moving forward to have a meeting, have a discussion and maybe tell the nation what's going to be about the BBI. But at the same time there have been also claims that there could be a rift between, as some political analysts say, that there could be a rift between the president and the Honourable Rila Odinga. But you see we cannot automatically be in agreement with the claims. We cannot depend on claims. We want to hear from the president and the former premier what's happening about the BBI. I'm sure they are aware that Kenyans are anxious to know the progress of the BBI because it is going to be a big factor in the formation of a new Kenya if it is passed. And because we know, I've seen the president being very much inclusive. I've seen him most of the time holding talks with the leaders from political divides. So let us not actually say that the BBI is not working. Let us give them time and hear from them and then from there now we can be able to make conclusions. No, the BBI is in parliament. Do individuals have any effect, do these particular individuals, Honourable Rila Odinga, Honourable Rila Ambruto and Honourable and represent himself, have any effect on this conversation in parliament? Of course. Because for the bill to be passed in parliament it depends on the numbers which the three leaders have in parliament. What do you think about that? Of course. I mean the two leaders have a very big impact on... The three? Yes. About the third one? Yes. The three of them. That's also the third one. Do they individually have any effect? That's why I say that, if you can allow me, that Honourable Rila Odinga is the orange democratic movement party as members who are in parliament from various parts of the country. The same time our president as the Jubilee members and the David president because now we are seeing some kind of lift between the David president and the president. He has members from the lift valley who are supporting his maybe asla movement. So it will depend on the kind of negotiations they will do with their members for them to be able to be in agreement to pass the BBI. And if the two leaders, for instance, we see the David president and Rila Odinga coming together in terms of ideology. We are talking about political ideology, the formation of the new government. If at all they are interested in being incorporated, then it means if they have the numbers they will be able to overpower the president and maybe pass the BBI. If that will be the case... If that is Honourable Rila and are you putting Rila in the mix? Exactly, but at the same time also if the president goes together with one of them, at the same time the BBI will pass. So one of them will lose their advantage. Let me hear from Kigan. If Bona Ben can allow me some liberty to give my opinion, I would say that looking at how the BBI fighters come, you will realise that when it started, it started like a child between Rila and Uru Kenyatta. That was the handshake that came, that brought about the BBI thing. And then of course it evolved. And like I think there was one wasminu say that you can say a word, then the word becomes bigger than you. The word grows you. So the BBI I think it has come to grow both of them, that they realise that you know at the end of the day once we have passed this thing, if we are not careful on where we will find ourselves post the 2022 arithmetics, then probably we will find ourselves in a mix. That is why you would see when the rift is trying to build between Rila Odinga and William Ruto. I think somebody who is considering some of their stunts probably would say it is Rila. Rila probably is telling and marshalling his troops to try and probably amend the BBI so that it can probably have, let's say a second powerful person in the next government. That is a powerful premier because as it is in the BBI currently, the prime minister would be like an employee of the president because he would be at the mercy of the president and the president can hire and fire him at the same time. So of course using the numbers of the political arithmetics. So what is happening is I think they are considering some of their stunts and what I am foreseeing maybe the coming days is maybe they will try and make a premier the post to be slightly more powerful. Could this be the reason why we have this stalemate? Absolutely that is the whole point. That people are considering their positions? Yes, they are considering their position that they realize probably if they say when you are creating a policy that even when your enemy is in power you will still be safe. And I think they are realizing that well according to what they are setting if you will be on the other side of the arithmetic then chicken will be coming home to roost. Partially I am in agreement but partially I am also in disagreement. The reason is that the president and the former premier when they came up with the handshake they put it very clear to the people of Kenya that BBI is not about 2022 elections. The former premier and the president said that BBI is not about themselves getting positions in government. They said BBI is about Kenya. How can we be able to stay together as a nation depending on from various regions where we come from and how can we be able to share resources and power so that we are able to run away from electoral violences which we have witnessed in the country. But this issue of people sharing resources and power everything are the reasons why Kigain is saying that people are now changing their position that they are not realizing that this thing isn't what we signed up for. Not really because inside the BBI when you are talking about inclusivity and regions the BBI spells very clearly that if we pass it as Kenyan people. Because if we have the president, the deputy president, the premier and these two deputies if it is passed by the Kenyan people. And if it is passed it means that the major argument is that the winners will not take it all. The way it has been that if you win you will take the whole government and the other people coming from other regions may just come to cry before you so that they are part of government. So if I am to come to Kigain there is the issue of amendments. You said that now people are reconsidering their positions. Ben you mentioned that it is for the people to reduce the issues to do it they will not take it all. Now that the BBI is in parliament is it possible for it to be amended in parliament? Yeah I think it's possible because I mean it's their role. But it has gone through public participation it has gone through of which that's still a debate but it has gone through the counties. Yeah I think if recently you could hear remarks from somebody like Orango I think the minority leader of the senate. I think he was saying that if you are saying that there are constituencies which are need to be added for example 70. Can we try and identify where they are supposed to be added like they are trying to go down to the specifics so that it doesn't appear like it's just good for the show. But in real sense there are implications which are not in the public limelight. So probably what is happening is they are trying to get more deeper into the conversation. And I think with time things are going to build up more and probably there are going to be a lot of changes that will be done. I don't think it's sealed an open book. You think it is amending the BBI in parliament. Possibilities of that happening? Of course yes because one of the functions which is given to parliament by the law by the constitution of Kenya is to amend laws and it's also to pass bills to become laws. So BBI is appeal and this appeal when it has been taken to the parliamentarians they are our representatives because all of us for five million Kenyans we cannot go to parliament and do amendments. So they will be able to do it on our behalf. So we will be asking our members of parliament to actually exercise sincerity and also exercise that kind of function and mandate which we have given to their office to ensure that when this BBI has been amended from parliament when it goes to the people now for us to exercise our thoughts as the Kenyan people it will be having the proper content to be the proper document for the Kenyan people to be able to fought. There is the issue of the 70 coincidences. So we have the sharing out of the proposed 70 coincidences and the introduction of a SLAM upgrade fund. Now this is what is actually causing a lot of stalemate in parliament. It is a centre of the BBI standoff at the Joint Justice Committee in parliament. What are your thoughts about this? The SLAM upgrade fund, how should it be handled? I think politics they say in a nutshell is just how resources are going to be shared basically that is what politics is all about. The reason why there is always glamour and fight in I think politics is because of how resources are going to be shared and looking at for example the SLAM upgrade fund and all that. I think probably there is a big issue because of course there are existing slams but how do we share these resources? We have 70. Exactly now that we have 70. So again you know in government there are a lot of spending. There is the spending which happens from the budget, there are some funds which are located to some functions and then there are what we call the pork barrel spending where the person in power can just decide to throw some resources to probably their specific places so as to try and gain favour from the locals. So I think what is happening is they are trying to, I understand, I'm saying the reason why all this is happening is they are trying to get deeper because how do you now allocate these resources? I think you Mr Ram, from where I sit we want to be able to be very sensitive when it comes to serving the Kenyan people. First of all Mr Ram, we must be very sincere with ourselves and with what we do. Right from us as individuals and as communities and even as Kenyan publics. Why do I say this? If you go to advanced countries like Germany, like America where the counties come from the federal system it starts all the way from America to Germany and it goes around the world, it comes to Kenya. We call it counties for our case. We see members of parliament or members of the Senate being servants of the people. If we are going to increase, my argument is if we are going to increase the number of constituencies to 70 the parliamentarians will also be able to say that better then also reduce the salaries for members of parliament so that we don't move this part into the common manaji. Because if you are aware that our members of parliament are one of the highest paid parliamentarians in the world and yet we are a developing nation. And when you consider other countries which are ahead of us in terms of economics, they are paid less. So if we also want to increase the number of members of parliament let us also reduce the salaries of members of parliament so that we don't pass this pattern to the common manaji which is struggling out there. For instance now we are experiencing COVID-19 and you know the economy is not doing very well. Most people have lost their jobs, others have lost their loud ones. And we want to say comfortably that let us increase the number of members of parliament to 70 Secondly, I want to observe that what is the issue of increasing the number? Is it about the visions or is it about resources or is it about the population? I am also wondering what should be the procedure of even creating a constituency? Actually if I can answer you that the procedure of creating a constituency is dependent on the geographical space which it occupies, the area. Number two, it depends on factors of population. If the population is very high in an area, for instance in some areas in Mount Kenya where the population is very high, places like Kisi where the population is very high you will be able to create a constituency so that the member of parliament can be able to reach out to other areas which cannot be reached out. I remember the issue of one man one. Actually I totally disagree with Buona Ben in principle and in form because I don't think that increasing the number of let's say members of parliament will solve some of the problems because even what we are seeing is what happened from the transition between the Kibaki government where they were 210 members of parliament to this parliament where they are now 290 plus let's say they nominated it comes to around 367 members of parliament and trying and look at what they are delivering. You cannot say it's substantial because I think they are so crowded in parliament they cannot even debate in a parliament of 360 in a session where only about 10 members can talk. Let's think of how we can solve our problems without creating more problems. For example look at big states like the United States of America there are few members of parliament who can be able to deliberately deliver and discuss the problems that are ailing the nations and come up with tangible solutions. So I think that is why I find the debate about BBI as being dishonest. I don't think it's about solving the solution. For me I think it was to creating alliances and arithmetic for the succession politics but looking at the problem. For example the problem of the winner takes itself. How does the BBI solves it considering the fact that it is the winning team that are going to fill the position of the prime minister the deputy prime minister and the deputy president and then the opposition will only be will only be of what we call the official office of the opposition leader. I mean at the end of the day what is happening is they are just changing names and creating rooms which are new and unique as time goes by and that is why I think there is a French proverb where translated in English says that the more things change the more they remain the same. So at the end of the day they are just creating I mean the opposition to be an opposition they are creating the majority leader to be the prime minister I mean there is nothing really that is changing which is substantial we are changing the name of the title exactly but the position remains the same. So initially Mr Ram I think my brother here is quite in agreement with what I was saying because I do not say that they increase the numbers of members of parliament I said that we must be able to observe and find out why we need to increase the 70 constituencies. Do you think we should increase it? At my level I am in agreement with him at this stage now that it is not important at all we must be able to first of all examine issues which deal with efficiency use of resources try to factor in the common manaji out there why to de-carry the pardon and probably is not able to be accessed and maybe be served adequately I think those are the issues and I want to observe that we talked about Islam Islam fund and I really want you to think about it the way I think about it what are you calling Islam? in Kenya we come up with the parameters to define what is Islam and which Islam should be upgraded these are some of the issues because you want to tell us that the Islam when you are talking about Islam in Kenya you are talking about Matari, you are talking about Kibera but when you touch on development studies I am coming from the world of political science and international relations as a master degree owner and when you are talking about Islam we are talking about lack of improved housing lack of water lack of hygiene and do we have that in Kenya? it is everywhere that's what I am saying what are you calling Islam? so if you are saying Islam upgrades which Islam now should be upgraded all Islam in all constituencies if that is the case you see when you are talking about Islam you are talking about lack of hygiene lack of water lack of improved housing infact if you go even to some places in Nairobi let us give an example pipeline you will see very nice structures built using cement and stones and bricks and you say that is not Islam what is the difference Islam also means lack of space lack of space lack of space lack of space I totally disagree let me try to understand what you are saying whether it is lack of space that is Islam I have given quite a number of parameters lack of space let me start to do that kind of renumeration number one lack of space what is congestion number two whether there is lack of infrastructure to transport human waste and even water number three what is lack of storage and lack of management of waste materials where there is lack of management of waste materials where the waste is just spread everywhere everywhere in the compound where there is lack of improved housing conditions when you consider pipeline Islam of course it is Islam the only difference is that place they have only used bricks and cement but if you go to Madari they have used the mapati so what is the difference all those are Islam so you should be able to tell us which kind of Islam you are talking about and they should be able to come up with proper specifications so that some other sections of the country should not feel that they have been changed is Buruburu Islam ya in fact all this place are Islam I think we should revisit his definition of Islam because according to according to let us realistic a house look here a house where you live having only one door and only one window and inside there a father and the children and the wife stay there but it is a permanent house how can you define it let me try and help let me try and help bwana ben kidoga having studied economics from the University of Nairobi I think among the biggest parameters which were being used to measure Islam is I think economic well-being and more than that I think he defined well and then he got it wrong he defined well Islam is a place where there is lack of of course number one is space number two is population number two lack of facilities but again he came lack of infrastructure there is what we call fallacy there is what we call fallacy you are making the right deduction but you are making a wrong conclusion so on how to arrive at Islam he got it right but where he comes the conclusion of saying that pipeline is Islam that is where he got it wrong because looking at pipeline it is a populated place but they have all the basic all the basic needs like the health centers are there in plenty look at water there is no shortage of water there is a gene in pipe management there is so much quality this is what is costing that settlement in parliament on salams so by definition you feel we do not have that concrete definition of what Islam is in Kenya according to according to even WHO there are correct parameters which are used to identify Islam and if my friend can make use of Google he can go to Google and search for slams in Kenya it will give him the parameters it will give him the slams which are in existence and I can tell him for sure pipeline is neither there and I am telling it is this so I think let people come out people outside here to tweet let them tweet you and you will see the results but you can do the research I challenge you to take the example let me quote Kipipi remember parliament you made me you made my day he said and I quote there are people who thought you can open the bill and make amendments the issue is just to bring the report to the house for futuristic reviews article 257 done on a popular initiative of the constitution is clear the bill goes to a referendum whether parliament has approved it or not the report is for MPs to have their input but not to amend the bill what do you think about that yeah I mean it could have a point but at the same time there are a lot of loopholes looking at how the BBI report was presented there are a lot of things which were not in conclusion like they are they are gray areas where it is not yet interpreted and it is not interpretable as it is for example when they are talking about the 70 constituencies have they identified these 70 constituencies so what I am saying is there are gray areas whether I like them or not these are things which need to be thought about and to be really filled in terms of in terms of the BBI you talk the member parliament saying that the report is just for the MPs only to have their input but not to amend the BBI not really because one of the legislative functions which has been given to members of parliament is to do amendement and also even to pass bills to become laws so members of parliament can do both they can give their input and at the same time amend the bill before it is taken to the public for an electoral process alright I want us to just wrap it up at that point thank you very much for giving us your input and regards to this Allow me Mr. Ram before you close to say specifically that most people are trying to misunderstand what is development this is I am trying to come back to that area because we have talked about slums we have talked about how we are supposed to divide divide our 70 constituencies for the people of Kenya you see if we build a road for instance I want to ask you we are building roads tarmac roads in Nairobi we have tarmac roads in Nairobi true or false true they run all the way from here to the airport but what is the essence of tarmac in the road it is to reduce the number of hours you are moving from here at this point to the airport it must be able to accelerate your movement from point A to point B so that you take shorter time then we are talking about development we have made progress but if you are taking five hours from here using the same tarmac road to the airport instead of development that's why we are saying that I want us to wrap it up we must be very very much specific and very much honest in this kind of discussions so that we ensure that these factors have been put in place alright thank you so much my brother it has been a pleasure thank you so much for your input that is Ben Nyagaka and Kennedy Keegan thank you so much gentlemen today we are landing pipeline is well it is a pleasure having you my brother we should have this conversation off air yes my name is Ryan Magugo let's take a short break that presents to the end of this discussion coming up next is a conversation on art art as a career in studio already my guests are already in studio Brian Organa and Brian Wanzo coming up in a bit let's take a short break we'll be back after this break