 Welcome to Toffy TV. I'm joined in the studio by author Gavin Buckland to discuss the latest book, Boys from the Blue Stuff. Interest in what I mean, straight away the cover, The Little Woods Clock, just takes me back to being a kid and everything about switches. It seems a long time ago now, but evident the rise to the 80s glory. So what's the idea for the book then, Gavin? Well, it's the idea, it's a follow-up to Money Can by Sloughb, which was the book which I spoke about in this very studio two years ago. Which was the story really, the Catholic years, I suppose, 1961 to 73. 73 is our line on the sand, you get to Bingham. I had a bit of thought, when does it finish? Do you finish at the end of the candle years or do you cut off? A couple of things played into it. There's a really nice coincidence that links 73 to 85 when it finishes. And also that book would have been too big. I had to trim 15,000 to 20,000 off the editor. That's the worst thing in the world to do by the way. Just thinking all that way disappeared. So 87 would have been a no, unless you wanted a book that was above the 1000 pages long. So you've got some good stuff then to go into the third volume. Obviously the last book does finish there with Bingham Stathol. This pick-off from there when Billy Bingham is coming into it. I think you've got a pick-off at the end of the Catholic. You've sort of got to do it like we live in the Catholic because that's key. Just like for people who haven't seen it, Harry Cattrick, obviously he's a name. He doesn't know anything about him other than the name. You learn the trophies and the type. What type of man was he? Very strict. Yeah, he was strict but his team played good football. You tend to find that that manages you a bit dar, a bit strict. His teams always played good football. Bill Nicholls and the Spares was the same in the 60s. He famously didn't court the press, but he's been a former player. Harry, I still think he's forgotten giants. I still don't think it's a naturally given. It'd be like Kendall's Evans Grace's manager. I think there's a conversation to be had there. Harry was a former player. He understood the club and he managed us in. Obviously he had a golden period under Howard, but under Harry it was a decade. Then it was a far more competitive league. When he brought great plays to the club, obviously the whole of eternity and so on, and won the titles, two titles under the FA Cup in 66. I still don't think he's appreciated enough, even in the wider football world. It was hard to follow though. His career after 70s and a previous book had gone into decline. It was old Allen Ball 50 years ago this month. He'd left a massive gap to fill within the club. The club decided to replace him with Don Nevy famously. He was the lead manager. The press got wind of the customer. The spot of Don Nevy was in form. He asked for John Moore's house. John Moore's house? Someone phoned up the form at the Times. I think he said he was just sitting in Don Nevy asking for it. One or two others, Bobby Robson famously. He was cropped up in here three or four times. Jimmy Armfield. It was a bit of a chaotic search really. John Moore's lover. He landed after Don Nevy in Greece with the leads. Fortunately or unfortunately Billy Bingham played for Everton when he won the title in 1963. He was over there managing the Greek national team. I don't know how it sort of happened but Moore's obviously said okay, we'll have Bingham. There was some good reasons. I'd say Harry wasn't great with the press. Billy was very charming management if you recall. Gift of the gab. A lot more press friendly. I think that's what Moore's wanted. Management appointments tend to be the complete opposite of the person that's gone before. I think with Bingham he saw that all that Irish charm and stuff would be good for the image. Bingham's problem though was that his CV was limited. He'd managed in Ireland, he'd started Plymouth. He'd obviously managed in Southport and he'd got a gig in Greece in the early 70s. He'd just effectively been sat as a Greek national manager. So yeah, it was not an honest CV really to say. He's a tough white manager. The only thing he had was that he was a former Everton black and he'd won things. So that brought him time but the problem with that then was ultimately that lead. He was fourth or fifth choice. If you're fourth or fifth choice manager, you know it. The board knows it. Supporters know it. The players know it. I think that that undercurrent was always there with Bingham. I'm going to say he was on borrowed time but he was always swimming against the tides from the start. This is the undercurrent. This book and the previous book is a lot of stuff. It's just history of the piece itself. Not just now but in the incidents of the years. I obviously didn't know Billy Bingham much better. I was a baby when he was little. I was literally a baby when he took over. My first manager was Gordon Leibholt, writer at the very end. I remember everything. Everything because I was a kid and everything gets you and then stick don't be forever. I remember Kendall's first game and all that but Gordon Leibholt was a manager who obviously as a kid grown up he started becoming aware of his manager easy thing. But Billy Bingham is everything that I've read really. People told me and interviewed people like Bob Lachford and he spoke about them different people only good Lachford talked about them but not. There was no first hand thing from me so. Bingham was very much. He'd managed underdogs throughout his career. I think that's where he was most comfortable with. Consequently he was not the most ambitious of managers. But at work for him when he went to Northern Ireland we qualified for two well cups. Still produced the greatest result by British country in the well cup. He had to get through to get out the group. So he was comfortable managing limited players and getting them working hard and well organised and stuff. When I came to Everton that was only going to get you so far. I think he... What did he tell you about? There was a place in the 70s and it was sort of finished. It's old Joe Royal, Colin Harvey, Jimmy Husband. He got good fees for them. I think he did some good transfer deal and the two that he brought him was Bob obviously. British director of fame Martin Dobson. But 74-75 people always say he's the great missed opportunity. But we weren't very good. It was the poorest title race in history. We talk about it now but it was just a really poor season. No, because it was a bit like... We just talked about it before we came on air about Leicester winning the title. Leicester won the title very much in the transitional season for the big clubs. Liverpool had just lost the manager Chelsea were sort of in between managers. Manny and Iter were struggling. So Leicester took advantage of that. 74-5 was a bit like that. Shanky had gone from Liverpool in the summer. Don Levy had gone from Leeds. Bill Nixon left space right near the start. Manny and Iter weren't even in the tough life, of course, they'd been alligated. So it was very much an open title race but really poor quality. But in the days of two points for the win, one point for the draw, if you drew most of your games, got the odd win, you were going to be there or there about. And that's what Bingham's team were like. They were called the robots and all this. They used to wear colour shades like that. They ended up being called Clockwork Orange because they were very mechanical. They had some player plays like Martin Dobbs and obviously Bob, Nets the Goals, but they were working on Leicester. They just took advantage of an archaic system with two points for the win. But they just went and go. People say Carl our cost is the lead, but it would have been cost somewhere. I also think at some point. And I thought that Carl our thing's been overplayed over the years. Having said that, they could have won it. Because I think the lead changed hands 21 times in a season. Derby won it. Purely because I think that like a game with championship musical chairs, after 42 games they were just a team. But it could have been a ball. If you had to look at that team, there were some decent players in. I mean I wouldn't say, and this is probably a bit harsh, I wouldn't say even if we've included Dobbson and Latterford, none of them could have played in Howard's mid-80s team or Catech 70s team or 63s team. I just went, did a bit of wrangol. They say I'll be that show me what I'm on the table now. I'm not sure about that. It might have helped, but it was just limited. And then Bingham, we get into what happened then. If you have a close miss, you always tend to get the sort of after effects that only can deliver you for a while. And then Bingham, he sort of fell out with a few players over wages in the 12 months later, including Bob. I say in the book that Bob is sort of straight. I said about Alex Young in the previous one. He would say Young is the goddess and God, but his career was like two careers of heaven. First four years great, last four years he struggled. He's ended up arguing with Catholic all the time and stuff. And Bob was to say, first few years okay, but Bob's golden period was the middle. No, from about 76 to about 79. But for most of that time he was arguing with the club over wages. He was constantly after a transfer out because he didn't think he was getting paid enough. But to be fair, those are days of 20 days. It stands inflation, so he wasn't low. So Bingham fell out with a load of players over money. I don't think he'd have come from that. There was a big fall out and by you get to 76. He not really bought anybody. And the result just started to falter. And then John Moore decided, as his was once Vice Chairman, I think we need to sack him. But it was just a bit odd because remember the bought Duncan MacKenzie and Bruce Rayoch? They bought him in December 76. At that time, Moore's had already decided to sack Bingham before that. Before that? I think I say in the book that it's a bit odd, but I think I say Bingham was quite a charming fella. And I think he thought that would be an asset in terms of persuading players to come. And I think as soon as they bit it down and got in late, he said like, you're off Billy because during that period he tried to get Bobby Robson from Ipswich. Even before he signed MacKenzie and Rayoch, Bobby had a contact. It was quite a funny story actually. 73 had this contact called Deep Throws, that's what he called. He found up there, Bobby said, we're from a North West club. Looking for a new manager, you're interested. Bobby said 73, he says I don't know. Three years later, December 76, same thing happens, phone call. We're from a leading North West club. We'd be looking for a manager shortly. Are you interested? Bobby goes, you're there for nothing. You phoned me three years ago. And Bobby did, you accepted it. There's a few stories, but he went to Moore's house and then famously somebody leaked the story to the paper, which he's always assumed to be having, but it wasn't, it was somebody at Ipswich. Cos he went to the Daily Express Southern Desk, the Manchester Desk. Ipswich was on the bus. He didn't get Robson, bit like. And it worked. Bobby was apparently linked with us. He must have had four or five times. And then you get to 77, we have the same names again. After Bingham linked, Don Levy, Ron Saunders, Bobby Robson, as I say. There was a story, maybe it was in Seston, a job, but I think he didn't go with. So you then left with Bando, where did you go with? And all of a sudden, up in the north-east of England, you've got Gordon Lee. You know, we was having a saviour. We'd had a good career, up until then he got stuck, but he got poor fail, promoted. One of the second divisions, I was with Blackburn, he had a place, he had a good career by the time. So it was the hope around, when he came in, it was the hope around, Gordon Lee. Yeah, I think so. I think there was a couple of things that were in his favour. I did sack Bingham, but he was in the League of Sammy Farming against Bolton. So that was sort of the state after the league took over. So it was great to take over. You've got two games to get to Wembley, and you're playing the second division team, and Gordon, after a couple of early false starts, once he starts to win the game, all of a sudden, he's at Wembley team on Saturday, he's taken over. Yeah, so that's it. He's won the fans over, hasn't he? Even now, but I think Billy was a little bit peeved, as you would do. And then, you know, then the spring of 77, you've got the League of Final against Aston Villa, and there I say, which I cover in the scientific detail. The League of Sammy Final against Liverpool, at main node, here I say. I've had a little bit of a sticker over it, as nice as possible. I'm not like a bit of blue, it's like 12 pages about Clive Thomas. Well, I mean... It's worth it. Absolutely, because it was a big... I wouldn't say it was a major turn and point, but if he'd won that game, it would have been good enough to beat Liverpool for the championship, or whatever. It would have at least stopped the ties of constant Liverpool success. We would have played at Wembley. In the short term, it would have been a good thing. People would have played my night at Wembley, what a fill-up that would have been to the club. But Clive, as I say in the book, he had the other things and he messed up, didn't he? You know, gender the doubt. He messed up. I mean, that's caught in it nicely. He said, what did he say first of all? It was offside. Then he said in his autobiography, it was offside, but just in case you didn't think it was offside, Brian Hamilton handballed it. Brian Hamilton was on offside and he cut Clive Thomas in a handball, because Brian Hamilton had his back to him. And then, by the time he got interviewed for a book in 1988, I think the offside angle, was just handball. There's that famous story, isn't it, of Colin Searle, who was the linesman who immediately Colin Searle was looking right down the line, so he could see Everton. He could see Hamilton, who was onside. He could see, it was obviously not handball, because the talent thing there is none of the Liverpool players. No. Yeah, so the three Liverpool players, Clements, I think. I think there's Joey Jones is there and stuff. You know, against your rivals and somebody sticks them with the hand. No. Probably the distance, probably the preferred for me, me to you. And Colin Searle saw all of that. And he went to the half-way line to give a goal. And there's the famous story, isn't it afterwards where Clive Thomas goes to Searle, you know, we need to get our stories right, and then Searle goes, you need to get your story like Clive, because it was a goal. Why do you think he disallowed it? Because Clive was a great ego maniac, who, you know, there's another Clive sort of, this loads in front of the sady, the famous Brazil-Sweden game in 17, where he disallowed the goal and the last kick of the game because he blows while the corn is in flight. And Tim Meill said, I quote somewhere from the 81 League Cup final where he'd allowed the Liverpool goal near the end where Sammy Lee's clearly offside, but it does let us go stand. And Tim Meill said afterwards that Clive's a, Clive's a, that's the thing, Clive's a very good referee, you know. But he said like on occasions, especially if the limelight's on them, that he'll stretch a lot of it, like as far as you can stretch it. I think just to say that he goes as much as I think else to make it about him. And I think he did on that occasion, not only at the time, but he was winding everything up in his autobiography and stuff. I'm delighted to hear that part, you know. The thing about him is, just from a mental aspect, David Liverpool's such a good side at that time. You know, in the European champion. Did you win the Cup? 77, yeah, yeah. To beat them. It doesn't matter about what you're doing in the league, but to beat them in an FA Cup semi-final. Cos I remember speaking to Ronnie Goddless, Ronnie Goddless, he put the cross in. Ronnie put the cross in? Yeah, absolutely. And Ronnie was going into that big game, you know, then people were not giving Evan a chance because he was playing brilliantly at the time. But on that day we just matched them, the pitch wasn't great so we were able to match them. To actually get past them. Who knows what that would have done if Evan hadn't beaten Liverpool in a huge game for a start to get to Wembley. He changed his narrative. In 71, the reverse would shoot. They'd beaten us at Old Stafford 2 on the FA Cup semi-final. That sort of started their big run of success. 77 was different cos we still needed a lot of work. Oh, of course, yeah. But at the same time, as you see in the Howards, you know, things can happen that all of a sudden, you know, you can kick on. One or two signs afterwards we might have been able to do that. Yeah, it was just... I think one of the things to say in the book is we have a load of hard luck stories with Evan. And I say 74.5, go on, Carlisle cost us a league. But I think most of them, when you examine it, it's just the team wasn't good enough. You know, I think that's effectively it. But I think in that one, the 77.5, I think we could be considered very hard done by. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. It was a couple of minutes in time and we played very well. And then I think when we get to the replay, they played, Duncan McKenzie played, but in the replay, they were the best team in Europe, they're not going to give you the second chance. And we got more than the replay three now. I think Gordon, Ben Gordon, I think Shores have given the signals out that we've missed our chance, you know. That was the answer. And I felt that we talked about 80s later, but you can see the difference in a team that wins stuff and won that doesn't. And since 77, after losing this, you know, the draw run luckily, we get beat quite badly. 84 league or final. We've not won a trophy. We played Liverpool at Wembley. Likewise, when the European Cup at the end of that year. Matching at Wembley, probably the better team. Go to Mame Rose, in normal circumstances, Liverpool to kick on. I went 2 or 3-0, but actually at Mame Rose, it was the same as at Wembley. It's niff and suck. I should have probably done better with the goal. I say that in the book actually. I was written down on Saturday. I was going to ask him if I thought I would leave it. I asked him in the news, except I still can't believe he didn't say it. Andy Grace had that on the telly, you know. But you could see by being good team, that people were winning trophies when we matched the European champions. That was a missed opportunity. 77 obviously unlucky. Then we got to say in the book, probably Andy had done a few stuff like this with fans. The 77-78 season, Bob's 30 goal season. It's for a lot of Evan fans. It's their favourite season, even more than the mid 80s. It's just mad. I think it's an age thing. Where did we finish that season? The top scorers. The problem you had was you had Liverpool who, European champions that year, and they had Forest who won it. Who then won the European Cup. So you competed against two European Cup teams. But again, I say, and it's probably a bit harsh, maybe. That team still wasn't good enough. If you have a look at that team, how many of them would have got in Forest, Liverpool team? Not many, if any of them at all. But what they did there was, they played entertaining football. There was that sense of achievement, Bob getting 30 goals. That would be sort of one something. We'd had that long-gun beaten-un before Christmas of the 20-year games. Shall I like a decent side to be? She seems to be playing it down a bit. Shall I like a decent side to be? No, no, we were. For a large part of the season. Five one away wins. We were still getting criticised by the press, for being negative. But no, but the team, you look at it, and look at the players, and you think look at Forest team, what they had on Liverpool. But still, I feel a lot of outbound fans, and I can understand that. Still love that team. And Lee had comments on when 18 months he'd finished there, it's best since the title in the 70s. Lee Cofan, which he's not spoken about, unlucky against Vella, another one. And then obviously Liverpool, Lee Cofan, Sammy Farnall, and then we'd obviously finished there, it's a good start. I do get to think about the goal, we had David Lawson in goal, in the 77, you know. See the goals in the Lee Cofan, against Vella, they all suffered. The two goals in the FA Cup, Sammy Farnall against Liverpool, they all know, it's very much chip them. The chip, yeah. I don't know where he stands them, and he does the punch, going out the box, you know. Put a level shout-out in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people say, I think Shilton would have made the difference, I wouldn't say he would have turned us into a type when a team would say he would have made the difference. I tried to get Shilton in there a couple of times. The first time was in 74, I was so into talking with Andy about this the other week because he was saying that Bingham had said that Shilton was 300,000, he wanted the Shilton was 700, so it's what he wanted him for, not paying 300,000 for the goalkeeper. Because in those days, goalkeepers weren't like parley prices, what they are now. Where now you can get, you know, top-class goalkeeper would cost the same as a top-class slaker. Then they weren't, David Lawson, we signed them in 72. This is the trophy for the keeper, 80,000. But the transfer they got for the place, 250,000, so that's a third of the price. And Bingham wouldn't pay 300,000 and I think the club wouldn't pay 300,000 in 77, and I think Shilton, he was on top money as well, he was the highest paid player in the country, he was playing a lot. He was playing in the country, he had about 20-30% inflation. He had a clause in his contract that went up every year to match the rates of inflation. So that put man United off that. So that's why Shilton ended up in a forest boat in Southampton, they were the only clubs that paid wages. The keeper though. Oh, yeah, Danny was, yeah. Peter Taylor said that, he didn't give a fuck because the forest said that when the forest came up, they beat us the opening day of the season at Godderson, he said that when they came up they thought they'd get into Europe, but when they bought Shilton it was incredible, wasn't it? And it's that easy, but go keep it just where it applies. Neffers were £150, wasn't he? Yeah, if you see what the fee is for gold, then you can get top-class keepers for buttons in comparison to what you can do now. Right, let's leave it there for part one. Don't forget, make sure you buy the book, boys from the blue stuff, the link is in the description to greatread. Make sure that you catch us for part two as well. See you later.