 Hey, so I'm Jeremiah, and this is my friend Oliver, we're a part of the Marvellous Keeper, and to start off, we'd like to get to know you a little bit, like your name and what you do. Sure. My name is Mark Hughes, and I'm the executive director of the Vermont Racial Justice Alliance. So we've been doing work in the state here for a number of years, racial justice work. Sweet, sweet. First question. What do you guys do? What do we do? Well, we do a lot of stuff. So where the racial justice alliance came from was back in 2014, at the death of Michael Brown, what I decided to do was start a kind of like a political action group to address policing in Vermont. So as a result of a lot of the work that we did there, what was created was this panel called the Racial Disparities in the Criminal and Juvenile Justice System Advisory Panel, and that work led to the creation of the Racial Equity Executive Director's Office and Panel at the statewide level. And from that point kind of pivoted into starting this other organization as a result of the momentum from the coalition work. And we started here in the city of Burlington in some of the work we've done in Burlington was to actually structure, we pitched the racial equity inclusion belonging department in Burlington, as well as the standing committee. In addition to that, there's a lot of work we did over the last couple of years in terms of driving policy here in Burlington, surrounding racial equity and also policing. Now the work of the alliance itself, some of it has to do with community engagement and support, helping black and brown folks where they are in the community, some of it has to do with outreach and education, teaching folks about systemic racism, the root causes impacts as well as some of the solutions. Some of it has to do with cultural empowerment, teaching folks and commemorating and celebrating our rich history, our culture, our contribution, our power. And again, some of it also has to do with the work that we do surrounding policy. I know that you all know that you guys do a lot, but what's the most challenging you guys have, yeah, like you guys say something. The most challenging. You know, I think in doing the work, as far as working in our communities and working with our people and just trying to make things better for all of us, I think some of the most challenging work, quite honestly, is just trying to figure out ways and methods for us to work together in our communities. One example is, I know there's been historically some deeply rooted divisions amongst indigenous African-American and refugee resettlement communities right here in the city of Burlington. There's a lot of challenges there because there's a lot of historical precedence on why folks are not talking to each other and folks are not working together. Some of it is cultural. Some of it has to do with our division just as a result of the role of the USCRI and may the ALV have played. And some of it has to do with challenges that some of us are just responding to things that we've been taught historically. So bringing our community together by far is the biggest challenge, I think that we have. And that's the one that I think we all need to be up to. Sweet. And since the kind of like your target is to make a change within the community, do you feel like you guys haven't been able to actually do that? Or is it just like a work in progress, you know? Like ever since you started back in 2014? Yeah, ever since, that's a great question. And I think part of it has to, the part of the answer, and I'm kind of laughing to myself is that quite often I have to remind myself that not only is it a journey, but it's, you know, and what I mean by that is that, you know, as far as the work that we're doing in organizations like us, there was organizations like us before. There are, you know, 10 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago in the United States. This work, y'all will be doing some of this work when I'm gone. I'm, you know, getting up there. I'm like almost 60 years old, right? So, and y'all kids will probably be doing some of this work. And it's kind of like some people say, you know, we gotta keep moving the needle. And unfortunately what we're seeing is it's a little bit less like a needle and it's more like a pendulum, if you know what I mean. Because it seems like sometimes things are up and sometimes things are down, but we always, you know, we always gotta have folks that are up for the fight, which is why I appreciate so much, y'all brothers, you know, taking the time out and learning what you're learning and just asking all the tough questions. And it's my hope that, you know, as we march on, you know, through time, as we march on, that it'll be you and people like you and your kids that pick the torch up and keep it moving. But it's a journey. Sure. What are we going to do? Well, to kind of get what we're trying to understand, like you said earlier, is the equivalent of, like the dollar value when it comes to us Black people. Making less, yeah. Making less and like how kind of that works. Yeah, getting like a stone more. Yeah, and you know, and one of the things that I read in the email that came over was, is that the shock and astonishment that y'all had, you were like, what? Right, because somebody was like, for every dollar, you know, and there was some, you know, I think somebody said two cents, you know, and one of the ways that I qualify this, let's just call it wealth in equity. Let's just call it wealth inequity in the United States of America. And I'm talking about racial inequities as it pertains to wealth. One of the ways in which I'm often qualifying is, this whole idea of generational wealth. Now, there's a huge difference between wealth and poverty, because poverty is just about how much money you have, but wealth is what you are worth. That means everything that you have, every one of your assets, add it all together and everything that you owe, and then you subtract it, and then the bottom line, that's your wealth. And what, specifically what we see is, in the United States of America, the median, and that doesn't mean average, that's more like, you know, just, well, you guys know median, you're seniors and juniors, right? But the median wealth of a black family in the United States is one-thirteenth, one-thirteenth of that, of the median wealth of a white family in the United States of America. And widening, this is all post-COVID. Now, when you think about that wealth in America, in that disparity, if you really think about that, you can't really fix that with five lifetimes of hard work. You cannot close that gap. We're talking about median wealth. So you have to ask yourself, where did that come from? And I think that's really what you guys are kind of like, right over the target on, is where did this come from? How could this be? And I think that, you know, we have to look at, we have to look at the history of the nation in order to really understand that, to really get our heads around, we have to look at the history of slavery in the United States of America. But not just stopping at slavery, also taking a closer look at what came after slavery and what things happened in the United States that continued to create processes or policies that ensured that black people in the United States did not have the ability to generate wealth or generational wealth. And in fact, black people were actually not just oppressed or excluded, but also exploited after slavery. We read in these books that, you know, slavery was over, you had the proclamation, the declaration of proclamation of, you know, and then you had the 13th Amendment and it was all over and that was that. Whereas it was much, much more complicated than that. And even after the 13th Amendment, what we find is that, you know, with the 13th Amendment, there was a loophole or a exception clause in the 13th Amendment which stated that except for the punishment of a duly convicted crime, which opened the gate up for this thing that we call convict policing, which enabled states to create laws to criminalize poverty and to criminalize black behavior and also laws to create segregation, to ensure that white folks could maintain property, maintain wealth. And this would go on throughout, you know, quite some time, you know, all the way up until, you know, the Great Migration and you'll read more about the civil rights movement, but none of this had a complete resolution, if you will. You know, if we're talking about state sanction, in other words, the government made laws. The United States government, even a constitution of the United States, but moreover, the government itself making laws that just basically ensured that wealth would be transferred to white and it would be retained or held back from blacks. Even you hear some of the most common stories is the redlining, that is to create restricted zones in neighborhoods and restricted covenants and selling homes. But very little has ever talked about the 270 million acres of land that was given to only white people during the Homestead Act in the 1800s. The fact that the Social Security Act, as it was signed, the new deal that we learned so much about and even the GI bill, who that veterans enjoyed and appreciated that enabled them to create generational wealth by buying homes and then taking the equity in those homes and passing it down to their children, enabling them to go to college and so forth, all of this stuff played into the widening and there are still many systems in place today. It would probably surprise you to know that we're in the middle of a constitutional amendment here in Vermont where testimony will be taken to amend our constitution Thursday of this week to ensure that slavery is prohibited in our constitution in this state because there are three exception clauses in our constitution in the state of Vermont that have always been allowed for slavery under the age of 21 at a person's own contempt and also for the punishment for our debt fines and the like. In our constitution predates the constitution of the United States and actually informs the language in the constitution that permitted slavery, that also permitted slavery in the 13th Amendment. Now, many would say, and I got a short video to show you in a little bit, but many would say that how could this possibly be? Here we are in 2022, and you're talking about something that happened in 1865. Those are tough questions to ask, but when we begin to lay this thing out and begin to look at it, and as we look in the areas of housing across the state, education, I'll use education, I'll take a little bit of a deep dive into education because you guys are students, but the disproportionate impact of disciplinary actions against students of color in schools as well as what we've sought to become the school-to-prison pipeline, the unfair treatment of black and brown kids in our schools, which I'm sure you have witnessed, and then you get into Employment Health Services Act, the Economic Development Transportation. When you look at those data and we have them on our website and there are many who have began to collect these data, then every single instance what we see is that black and brown folks are disproportionately and adversely impacted when it comes to the outcomes of each one of these, every single one, to include the criminal justice system. So it really is about economics and I'll come back to you for another question, but I would just say that even with the criminal justice system, as I told you previously, from the onset, up to prior to 1865, with slave tension, but also beyond that period with convict leasing, the law enforcement apparatus played a huge component in incarcerating and criminalized power, because if you create poverty and the vast majority of folks at that time if they're demographic was poor, then de facto what you're doing is you're creating laws that affect black people more than they do like people proportionately. So this has lingered and what I was getting at with the numbers is simply that you can see it across all systems. If we go and we take a true look at the history of the nation, we can understand how that connects. And if we understand the definition of systemic racism, then we start to be able to put this puzzle together and understand why it is that we're seeing this huge disparity economically and the impact that it has on every single one of these systems. Oh, that's a lot to take in. Yeah, I think I maybe gave you a little bit too much, but we'll come back to it because hopefully we'll get a chance to catch up as well offline. I did have a short video for you because what I'm holding in my hand right now is this is a report from the Human Rights Council of the United Nations. This is a report from the High Commissioner. And I just wanted to share something just about what she had to say about this very same subject, just from a different angle. But I think it pretty much takes you to the same place. Hold on while I get this up for you. I just wanna make sure that I'm sharing the volume as well. So listen, as she speaks, and this was just last year, and we can talk more about it when she completes. This is a moment of clarity. It is also a testament to the courage and perseverance of George Floyd's family and many others in calling for justice. As the jury recognized, the evidence in this case was crystal clear. Any other result will have been a travesty of justice. But for countless other victims of African descent and their families, in the United States and throughout the world, the fight for justice goes on. The battle to get cases of excessive force or killing by police before the court that alone win them is far from over. This case has also helped reveal, perhaps more clearly than ever before, how much remains to be done to revert the tide of systemic racism that permeates the lives of people of African descent. Now is the time to critically examine the context in which George Floyd's killing took place by revisiting the past and examining its toxic traces in today's society. The entrenched legacy of discriminatory policies and systems, including the legacy of enslavement and transatlantic trade and the impact of colonialism must be decidedly abrooded in order to achieve racial justice and equality. Is there not? The verdict in this case will just be a passing moment when the stars align for justice rather than a true turning point. Oh, wow. Well, there you saw the high commission of the Human Rights Council of the United Nations. I told you what I was holding in my hand was a report, and this report is probably 25 pages. And it goes through all of so much about the observations that the United Nations have made on the treatment of African-Americans, Americans of African descent here in the United States and their expectations on their responses. So what we're dealing with here is we're dealing with something that is entrenched as the high commissioners said. And you see this manifest in so many different ways, but we always have to remember that it really started with the genocide, it started with slavery, and it was all intended for economics. For economics, it was all about making money. The whole thing was the false narratives that were created to support and rationalize the inhumane treatment of black folks here in the United States. It was necessary to perpetuate what it is that even continues to play out in some different ways to this very day. And what we see is now is we see it, what you see more clearly now than ever is it's manifested itself. It has manifested itself economically. Well, it started economically, I shouldn't say it manifested itself, but that's how it started and that's what you're actually seeing. You've probably seen it play out across housing and education and employment. You start to look at it. So yeah, lots going on here, lots to take in and we've got some class and some outreach and education that we're given in the communities and in fact, we're gonna be doing one on Thursday. We're gonna be teaching about this, the Abali slavery piece. And then we also have an economic empowerment piece that goes with it because there's other policy that we're pushing at the statewide level to attempt to begin to compensate for some of these economic disparities that are just even here in the state. My other question is that, since you're talking about the teaching of the book, are you guys planning on teaching the students like the school or something like that? Absolutely, the interesting you say that because I'm excited. First of all, I wanna get educated, okay? So, I've signed up for some Swahili classes that I'm gonna be taking on next week. I'm hoping to be able to get there. I got it. First, I gotta get educated. The other thing too is with my brother's keeper and y'all folks from the school, whoever is out there who's interested in learning more and also just kind of getting together and talking about it because we don't talk enough. We just don't hang out and just say, well, what about this thing and just wrestle with it? There are a lot of people, they just like the, most people will prefer, or let's just not talk about it at all. Or if some people say it was such a big problem, what can we possibly do about it and just choose not to have a conversation about it instead. But yeah, I'm of the opinion now with the Richard Kemp Center that has opened here directly across the street from the Community Health Center of Burlington on Riverside. It used to be the SAM furniture store there. You remember that? Right there on Riverside. So that is one of our initiatives and that's going to be a place not just where we can go because just think about this. If what I'm saying is true, and the reason why I say if is because y'all need to go take a look at it for yourself and make your mind up as to whether or not you believe what I'm telling you because people, you know you have to know these things. People will tell you anything. Right, right. So I really want, you know, I'm really encouraging, like he said, for folks to come out and have these conversations. But if it is true, and I believe it is, in all of our, you know, we have, you know, volumes of data on our site that indicates disparities across all fronts in our history, not your books in school, but if you go and take a look and start looking through the internet and doing your own research on the history of the United States and reading some other books that are out there and there are many, start to put it together, then you'll, you know, I'm hopeful, I'm optimistic that you'll see it. But at the point I'm making though is that if this is true, then this means that at the same time, you brothers as black men, okay, at the same time that you are being dealt unfairness from housing, you're getting the same thing on the education front, an unfair outcome. You're getting the same thing on the health services employment, economic development, I stand health services access, transportation, the criminal justice, every single one of those systems are dealing disparities on you right now, which is making your life harder, economic harder, harder, the criminal justice system, you know, we see the numbers all of the time when you see the race traffic stop, the race traffic stop data, where we see that black and brown people are being stopped hugely at disproportionate rates, being arrested, convicted, tried, incarcerated, our systems are full of us. And that is just another factor, another indicator, if you will, there are many, but all of this stuff is happening, it's coming at you, it's coming at us, all of the time, every day at the same time. So that's the pressure that we live under as being black and America, and it's true. It's a difficult thing to navigate and it's hard to, look, it took me until I was in my 40s to accept it, I rejected it numerous times as a kid. You know, I'm a retired army officer and I chose to not listen to this because I didn't think it was true. But what I'm getting at here is that there needs to be a place for us. So that's what the Richard Kemp Center is about, that's not just for, you know, we're, you're gonna hear more about it soon, we're gonna be opening it up for some community discussions around some of the programming and activities that we have, but we're hopeful that when y'all come in there that you guys will figure out your own activities, we'll give some guidance to you, but we envision there be incentives of excellence, there be arts, there be triumphs, but there are activities and stuff for y'all to do over there. Say again. Sweet. We'll come check in when you guys are open. Oh yeah, well COVID right now is killing us about this, that way. But I'm just saying, I didn't mean to do that, I really didn't mean to do that, but it's hard right now, it's hard right now. But yeah, that's gonna be a huge thing for us, first time in our community where we have a Black led organization doing stuff in Black communities. So y'all, I'm really looking forward to that. The other thing is, it's even leading up to that, you know the hope is that you, the two of y'all and folks with y'all know, and everybody's not gonna be down with this. Everybody, you know, because we're not a monolith. There are some Black folks that look, this is not an issue and they're gonna keep it moving. Amen, let them keep it moving and that's fine. But there's also, you know, some folks that are like you and the thing is that we don't wanna separate people because of course we wanna keep the door open. Even folks that don't believe what we've, especially the folks who don't believe what we believe, we want to invite them, even also white people, okay? We wanna keep the door open just to be clear. But we just don't wanna, we don't wanna forget where we're starting with, what we're building from. And that is to create spaces for us to be able to have these conversations. And also to be able to provide programming like adult basic education, like, you know, maybe some basic computer skills. Maybe we can get some workforce development happening up in there, teach people how to create their own businesses. Just a bunch of stuff happening at the same time. Get a recording studio in there. Just all kinds of things to just keep it moving and also to make sure that we are there to care for one another. In every area where the system is underserving us, that'll give us a place to strategize and create ways in which we can compensate for those losses. And then the other thing is just to be able to also have a legacy where men like y'all can leave something for the youth that come behind you. So we can each one teach one and continue to move forward. For sure. That all sounds exciting. And definitely we have a lot more stuff about as like, as we continue to do this. But unfortunately we are running out of time. So I was going to give you the chance if you had any questions for us. Maybe. Yeah. I would love to ask y'all some questions. We don't have enough time. So I'll just throw a couple of them at you. Sure. What are your, I mean, I know right now that, let's see, doing your senior I think. I wrote some notes down. Yes. Okay. So what are y'all, what are y'all's plans? Where are you guys going to stay in Vermont? Is it anybody making plans for college to leave here or starting businesses? Or what are y'all going to do next? Basketball stars? I'm trying to go to college after high school at the first plan, but I don't know what. Like, I want to do that. Okay. Yeah. I'm kind of in, well, I'm in my last year of high school. So I'm kind of in the decision making process, you know, talking to my family and like figuring out what I'm interested in and what they'll tell us and stuff like that. So. Yeah. One of the things that we've been planning is just a mentor mentorship program. Right. So I've been talking to folks, you know, you know, and just talking about how we can, how we as Black men can make ourselves available to y'all. So my commitment, first of all, this is recorded, other people are going to watch this. I'll make myself available, you know, right now. And just let both of y'all know, you know, I'm at mark at VTracialJusticeAlliance.org, mark at VTracialJusticeAlliance.org. You don't have to write it down because you can watch this again. My number is 401-480-8222, 401-480-8222. So we have a staff, Isaac Elluci, we have Cleopas Mukaba. We also have, you probably know some of these folks or at least some of their youths because some of them have kids or have youth over in Burlington. And then we have Maya Longworth and we got a staff, what we're doing to put together some opportunities for folks to come out and hang out and do some mentoring, help folks with homework. Here's the last question that I have for you. With y'all, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on, COVID, it's crazy, it's just crazy. I mean, you guys got dealt a bad hand. I could never imagine being you with all of this stuff going on. I've never, I could never, and I thought I had it bad when I was in high school. And I'm not, this is not like a pity party because you guys are strong. But I just wanna let you know I'm praying for y'all and my heart does go out to y'all. I love y'all, you guys are amazing. You guys are amazing people. Thank you for what you're doing. But what do you need, what do you need help with most? But I mean, as far as the struggle on a daily basis, how can we help y'all, you know, just go a little bit further, do a little bit more? What do you think? I mean, school, the homework help, yeah. The tutor, the staff, tutors and stuff, yeah. Okay, so you think the homework is the biggest struggle? Yeah. I would say that as well. There's a couple of programs here and there that helps a lot. But I would say since I'm in my last year of high school, I'd say definitely decision-making, you know? Like this is the time where you have to make a decision that's pretty much gonna change your life. So just to know what is best for you and stuff like that. Like there is some guidance, some people that can talk to you for my advice. That'd be great. Yeah, like some people can help you, yeah, but making decisions, mentor or something like that. That's really helpful. And I think I can reach y'all through, is there been a transition in the leadership of the group there? No, just Megan. Okay, so I'll send a note to the email thread that we have going on. I really appreciate y'all taking the time and having a conversation with me. I mean, I'm honored, really, I'm really honored. I feel like I'm the God that's getting the opportunity here because I don't get a chance to have conversations with y'all. And I don't have any kids. I mean, I got grandkids and some of them are in the high school. I'm not gonna embarrass them by calling their names out, but when we get a chance to talk, I'll tell you who they are because I think you know them all, but it's just such a pleasure. And I'm so proud of y'all that y'all are representing and that y'all, you guys are working hard and doing the right thing and digging and discovering and even saying, hey, I need some help. Those are true qualities. True qualities of real men. Real men are not John Wayne. Real men are those guys who cry, who show emotion. Are you gonna shake your head now? Show emotion. We don't mind saying they don't know everything. Right. And we support one another and we care for one another. So I've never met either of you, but I certainly can tell you. Hopefully soon. Yeah, hopefully soon, yeah. I hope so, I hope. So in matter of fact, I told you that Kim Center is not open yet, but that's just because of COVID. If it's a small number of us, we can meet down there because we've got the chairs and all that other stuff in there. We've got what we need. We can even like watch a video or something if it's a small group of us or something like that and we really COVID protocols. I invite you down there, open that up to you. I love you guys. Love you. You guys are, to me, this is my heart. This is where everything starts to stop with y'all. I know that you guys are gonna do well. I've got your hands on straight. And thank you so much. Are you guys done with me and my dismiss? Yeah, thank you. That's right. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you and good evening to both of you.