 Podcasters round table round 124 You make podcasts so what what else you got? That's that's what we're gonna talk about I want to know if you're here if you're watching this pretty good chance You don't even you have a podcast you probably have like tons of episodes, but I'm curious with that sort of Lead in we're gonna talk about should you be blogging or creating other content around that podcast in order to grow that show Get more exposure. Whatever you want to do with your show. Usually it's people always wonder How do I grow my show so we'll talk about creating other types of content around the content? You're already making because we all have so much extra time, right? And we'll get into a few stories and oh look at this. This is really cool it for people on the this is for Jamie This is a but So the audio only folks it is a it's a pin a button you wear like on a jacket or something preferably jean jacket I think yes, and it says podcast But it's in the shape of the Metallica logo with Cliff Burton's face on it So it's like the best thing I own like the last decade so Jamie being a drummer. I thought he might appreciate that Yeah, that's that's fantastic Like where can I get that pin? Guitars we have a lot of music here. I don't know general Jessica I don't know what she plays but speaking of all these names and around table who are these people piano piano We have a band people. I have a bass guitar that I can't play and I sing also Dude, we're set. All right, let's do this next round table is gonna be your next that's well, then it's gonna get pretty weird between us Between us you me Dave it's gonna get you know triangle Lee. All right. Yeah, I have that to look forward to then I guess okay He is a Hall of Famer In what I don't know, but it's it's some Hall of Fame somewhere All right Dave Jackson Welcome back co-hosts. Yes, Dave Jackson School of podcasting calm ready for another fun-filled evening with Ray in the gang rain that that's our name. That's actually our band name Alright first time round table or Jamie welcome. Hey, thanks so much for having me Jamie Eads from the drum shuffle You can find us at the drum shuffle calm. We interview professional drummers Every single week so pretty cool stuff. That's time. I had a drummer on the show I made him open the show with the drums. It was definitely the best open. We've ever had so if you come back be prepared All right. Yeah, I'll get the I'll get the kit right behind me back here. There you go Oh, is it behind you? Do you have the electronic drums or? No, I will set up the kit behind me next time. So we've got space. So we'll do that next time Amazing see good reason to come back. All right. I think another new round table. All right, Jessica. Welcome. Yes Thank you so much for having me. I'm Jessica Kupferman. I Am the co-founder of she podcasts. I also am the head of marketing for rebel based media Which covers podcast success Academy podcast websites The new podcast design studio productivity and captivate you which is going to come be launched at the end of the month I also have three shows. I can't believe I'm saying this Like the worst podcast forever, but I have three shows She podcasts I do a comedy show called brilliant observations and I am currently about to launch Captivate the captivate podcast, which is going to be about audio influence We're also getting your headset mic. So you don't have to lean in we'll take it You don't I don't think you have to lean in because it weird No, we're not getting the the beautiful better. Yeah, do you have a choice if you have a choice? So we'll get that ATR. It would be this one. It's not Yeah, so if you go up to the little gear, I don't think that's I don't think that's it It's okay. If you figure it out while we're going doesn't matter. We can hear you. All right. I'll pittle. Thank you. You're good All right, cool We probably should have told Jessica. She gets one plug. Oh, but that's at the end. It'll make those rules I'm done with mine. I was just trying to introduce myself. I know I'll never say it again You also you're also playing the role of Daniel J. Lewis tonight. So you're in the co-host fill-in It's okay, you get to be your own person. We won't make you be Daniel All right, Daniel's not with us today, but he'll be with us in a future round table You can hear me now, right? I we hear you now. That's in the HR. Is that better? No, it's not the ATR tap on it It's okay No, that's not it. You can tell by the Keep working. All right, let's get to work Okay, let's do it. Let's get to work Let's I had started off with talking about content and additional content for your podcast There's an article says should you also be blogging? And that's really what I based the title on but I'm curious, you know for this show I would say do nothing Extra the show just exists and we take what we can get and it does fine Because there's no the goal that really here is just to connect with other podcasters and have fun So achieved no one we need to we don't need to Instagram it or Twitter promos I'm bad at all that stuff when it comes to this show But I definitely create tons of content in fact, you know It's funny because I don't feel like I create a lot of content that is specific to any show that I have But it's all under the podcast helper brand So it's for me I create a lot of content It's just all over the place and I expect it really just sort of that is sort of for me That's the brand. I don't say myself as the brand, but the brand is just Audio video content all over the place like it's on social. It's in podcasts in video. You name it, but Dave do you? You used to blog for the school of podcasting too, right? You had a blog on there. Do you ever is it just ghost town or it's weird I had a blog at David Jackson org which is still there And the only reason it's still there is it ranks well in Google and it was just something where it's like Oh, we should I should play with blogging and Started one and next thing I know it started ranking. So I haven't really but why not blogging on the school of podcast school of podcasting I'm actually going to do that. In fact, I've actually contemplated Taking down the other website putting the posts that are on there on the school of podcasting and doing a ton of 301 redirects because I should because everybody's the only reason I Kind of like the way it is there as I have had people say I googled podcasting and Because I have multiple sites and they all seem to rank. Well, it's like I can't escape Dave Jackson. He's just everywhere So that's kind of why I leave them up but yeah, I and the other thing I've started doing is my school of podcasting show a lot of times has multiple segments and Sometimes people don't want to wait till the middle to hear this one segment. So I've been actually taking some of those Boiling them down to a couple minutes and putting them out as a YouTube video. So basically re-recording that content as a YouTube video just to So some people want to watch it They can some people want to listen they can do that if you want to read it here It is and you do I see you have like automated Twitter like referring to your archive because I see All your episodes pop up over time. Yeah, I'm actually looking to slow that down a bit because I didn't realize how much I Had it going I could have told you. It's a lot. Yeah, so I need to do like one a day Twice a week something like this I'm curious Jessica probably has a good opinion about this, but I'm wondering is it I feel sometimes like ooh new content Like I almost feel like it should say archive in there But then I'm like do we then waste then people turn it they turn tune it out as the same time I don't know but Jessica I am quite sure that blogging along with podcasting is right up your right up your alley Like that's probably something that you do you create content around the podcast or is it just a podcast? You've written about oh, we don't hear you Unmute Maybe no we got nope. Nope. Nope There you go Now there's talking to yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how that happened. Okay. I'm so sorry So yeah when I very first started my podcast I did my first one lady business radio I did have a blog and then Eventually my podcast sort of became my blog and it was a really good substitute Well for me having to like write because I was like kind of always pained by the idea of having to write an article So I did my podcast and then I would do like an intro paragraph when I would email it to my list and then At each intro paragraph kind of got longer and longer and longer and then yeah I was doing like a blog post Introducing the show it just sort of happened that way though and I know there's a lot of people that do The blog post and don't it's only if like there's not really a need if you have something additional to say And you have an interview show or if you have a specific show that just does like Tips about influence for example But we have other things to say then we would blog alongside it but I think for most people if they're if their blog is I Bill Burr is the only person that comes to mind if they're if they're if their podcast is more Like a daily journal or some kind of journal like they don't need to like Dave like somebody with 30 podcasts Like I don't know if you need to blog You know what I mean like I mean what more could you have to say let's be honest? I Want to come back to that with the show notes versus blogging, but so someone help me remember that because I will forget but Jamie do you with your podcast is there any other additional content around that? Well, I mean the last time that I actually did a blog post. It was on my space. So if that Yeah, it was actually it was a thing on my space there for a while So when you know when I started the the drum shuffle Which was you know a year ago. We're coming up on our 52nd weekly episode So when I started the drum shuffle, I just wanted to get into the podcast I just wanted to start immediately podcasting and Growing up in the music circles. I know a little bit about the art of promotion, but I didn't Want to take the time to do the blogging as well. So my strategy when we started the podcast was really to Have killer content have the the best guests that I could get and then promote the heck out of it Some people have told me yeah, you should probably start a blog But you know to your point ray. I try to make really good show notes So that when people see the show notes They're gonna understand kind of what they're getting if they they click the play button if that makes any sense Yeah, so I would say just I know you're gonna jump in I was gonna ask what's really the difference between a Blog post and a and show notes like read my mind So to me personally a blog the blog post is two things One your innermost thoughts, which is something you can't necessarily do from show notes unless you're going to take Like a paragraph and be like before I interviewed this person. I did some research. Why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? Let's find out then I interviewed this person. Here's what I learned Enclosing everything is beautiful. That would be more of a blog post type show notes, but I use blog posts for more like Here like for example one of the topics I had to talk about tonight or I offered to talk about tonight was discoverability and the mainstream media it's something I already It's something I already wrote about that actually I'm gonna a post is posting tomorrow. I don't have the link for you yet, but That's a blog post because I don't really have any show where you know to say all my thoughts also a blog post is You know one of those Neil Patel five thousand word ultimate guide to Facebook ads or ultimate guide to cover art or ultimate guide to using audacity like blog poster for those two things I am also not a big show notes person. Just so I would either have a blog post or Show notes, but I think I think show notes are overrated because I feel like It's just lazy SEO if you know how to do SEO like in your site and you can tag and categorize properly with long tail SEO keywords you don't need to have a transcript or Keyword your show notes as thickly as that's a terrible way of describing it as as much as people do My show notes are like, they're not thick at all. They're very thin I To each his own it's just I like bullets because I don't want to give away the whole show Well, what what is the difference? So we talk about this all the time in sort of these circles about Being found in Google, right? And now that Google's doing Podcasts they've got their directory in theory and they're supposed to their surfacing surfacing that through search on Mobile right now and we're hoping that's gonna come to the desktop You know, is there a chance that I mean how they gonna rank how they're gonna rank a show like my mind the podcatcher studio Versus school of podcasting versus the audacity to podcast which are the same show. They're all different How's Google gonna choose which one they should rank higher if they start surfacing on the web if you know If say our show notes are I think what they rank is the most recent update So like you guys might be fighting for the top on any given day depending on whose content is The most recent because I know they look for the newest stuff first. I mean Don't they I think I mean There's number of backlinks Is in there as well. I was just playing with the key. That's right. Yes backlinks Are you a boy band in the 90s that like the one kid was? Yeah, that would be a good podcaster I did go full nerd on you there. I'm sorry You're right backlinks and also cross-linking in your own posts. I mean there but I just think I always thought the most recent stuff was The thing that came up first, which is why I don't Recommend people do seasons and I don't recommend people do ever there were weak a show They want to be you don't care about being found then Go for it. What about the future? Do we think that like creating more kind so Todd Karkin will always talk about how this has been a strategy from day one Like he creates a ton of content on I think geek news and he has his podcast And the reason his podcast is successful is because he draws so much web traffic And they get there for because he does a lot of tech reviews, right? So he has a lot of stuff to do outside of the podcast But they then find there's a tech podcast and according to him They hit the subscribe button on the website. No one does that but he says that that's that's it that's like his core strategy that you have to like sort of have these you know or more that if you podcast if you blog and Maybe something else maybe YouTube or something like the more you do in theory the faster you can grow. I don't know what you guys think Well, I would think it makes sense in theory because like I said some people like to read some people like to listen Some people like to watch so do you apply a blogging? Mindset to your show notes Dave. I do and I got that from I listened to Pat Flynn in his early day When he was writing a blog post he was basically writing a blog post so you could pass a test and I was like, okay I don't know if I'm gonna go that crazy But my show notes are pretty crazy now But mainly what I I switched this about a year and a half ago I used to write bullet points Record my show and then turn around and expand on those bullet points and make that the show notes And now I do the opposite I flesh out the idea in a blog post or or just you know, whatever a Google Doc somewhere Then I turn those into bullet points because I don't want to read to my audience. That's boring So I take the bullet points and then I just talk to one person But I still keep the the full show notes just again for Google traffic And then there are you know, they're deaf people in the world that like to read in some cases and a good point You know, so they could also listen to the podcast though a Deaf person could not listen to the podcast now Yeah, but I know what you mean no blind The other thing though, I did an episode That's you know Oh Yeah, we do spend a lot of time on our show notes So I kind of said hey Is anybody reading these and I my audience at least said which is a bunch of podcasters said they go to them for the links The links and they they used them to figure out am I gonna listen or not? Is a podcast a website strategy, okay, what if I I'm a business that needs to get people to my website is a Strategy for that. Here's why you said yes in question. Yes because in theory Maybe See now. I'm starting. No People click play and listen on your site. That's the first thing are they doing that? But if they did your time on site is gonna go up which is gonna make Google go Hey, this must be good content because these people never leave But they don't listen on our website. I'm gonna say that's the They don't look at your stats. It's like three people out of thirty thousand if that right But I but does it get people to the website if they don't click play, but here's the thing I think Daniel does a great job of his show notes I think you might have some blogs up too But like and I think people told them this and even like putting all of the content in your ID3 tags and metadata So it pops up in a and an app like I just want to give it all to the person who wants to consume it I don't really care how they get it so for Daniel I will I may have heard the episode I may not but I might go to a blog post I remember he talked about how the heck I change my feed and feed burner or something and he's got the instructions He does a great job of outlining so I know a lot of people go to his show And they stay don't listen to the podcast, but they're there. They know he has a podcast They may subscribe and listen at another time But his his website draws in people because you know, it's he kind of outlines everything that's in the podcast right there in the Show notes, so I think it does a good job, but For yeah, I don't know if that's like a blog post because it is sort of outlining your podcast as opposed to saying something That you didn't say I mean Jessica works with on some nurses. She's only used to the energy interview format Maybe like, you know, you know, that's not true. I mean Daniel had some Daniel has had some really recent This is kind of my point actually is that like during personal Strife, he was using his podcast as a way of communicating to people like what was happening rather than write it out It was I mean, I don't I actually don't know because like most listeners. I don't go to the website, but But he was using that as a form of blogging too And then I'm sure he got back to the audacity to podcast But he was also posting on a regular basis like this is what's going on with me this I feel about it Rather than writing to me the if he had written that out that would have been more of a blog post I think yeah, Jamie Do you think a podcast is a well, I mean why did you start a podcast you just did you just want to get into it? But I'm not sure if I just started well for me You know Well for me, you know as a musician, I'm not scared of being in front of a microphone obviously I mean, I've spent 25 years doing that For me it was as I was transitioning out of the, you know, bar bands, etc You know, I got to a certain age where I'm not I don't want to tour as much as I once did So for me it was I've made all these great connections. What can I talk about, you know? And I thought about doing a unsigned band kind of podcast and and you know Music licensing being what it is. I decided against that. I thought that would be too much work But in my particular case, you know, I just wanted people You know, I wanted to talk to other Drummers especially because I think drummers. There's not a lot of outlets podcast-wise for drummers There's some great ones out there, but I don't want to talk about technical aspects of music I wanted to get inside these guys brains. What makes them tick kind of thing So I may not be the best person to ask about show notes, etc You know, because it's an interview format and I'm basically In my show notes. I'm saying hey, I talked to ray today We talked about how ray started as a drummer or a podcaster. We talked about, you know The one seminal moment that he knew he was going to make it as a podcaster, etc. It's literally just a paragraph I I'm of the if you build it, they will come school, right? Dave Dave are they coming Dave? I am wait. No, you know, not are you? No, you're not getting weird Davey said I think you were watching the chat Jamie said if he he went with the if you build it, it will come. Oh, yes Where's the chat? podcastersroundtable.com slash live every other Thursday you should show up there and chat with us. We're hanging out there right now Check it out, uh, Dave But I know Dave this is one you've I've heard you say that phrase several times. It's you build it. They will come Yeah, they want that doesn't work. It doesn't work. No Um, you got to go tell people about your show and I think Jamie talked about Yeah, marketing endlessly and you know marketing in theory is Is a form of content, right? I mean because I am let's we take we can remove the focus off blogging and I am curious about Other content like we could just I could we could record this podcast and theory We're doing video and audio right now. So we are doubling up on our content creation here, but We could record this audio podcast put it in the feed and then just record the next one And you know what it's probably what happens with this one other than the youtube video. That's pretty much all that happens I don't go I don't tweet about it. Um, I don't I don't put on any social Um, I don't Then write a the show notes are terrible. They're literally what I write in the email. That's one paragraph to say Come check us out and here's the topic So this this show right here has zero almost zero content around it. Um, you know, jayme, are you creating so you talked about Build it if they come but you also do you sounds like you do a lot of marketing I wouldn't say a lot. I mean for me, you know, I'm a student of my instrument So when I get somebody like Marco Miniman the one of the greatest drummers alive to come on the show Obviously, I want to tell the social channels about that. You know, I mean, I do want to say that um However, I you know, I think just doing the social media thing Isn't enough. I got very lucky early on um in that and Dave I think will really appreciate this. I had jerry gaskell from kings x on my show And I yeah, so jerry comes on my show and I asked the question I said you guys haven't had a new record in how many years and he said well, that's about to change So he announced on my show that kings x was getting ready to go into the studio and another website Picked that up as a as a news blast So I picked up a ton of listeners Because one of the music websites found that content somehow So I guess I just got lucky in that um However, you know as a musician I feel like my music is my other content if that makes any sense So I may not be the perfect case study. I felt like the podcast Was an extension of me as a musician. Does that make any sense? I think it does The podcast was an extent of you as a musician Yeah, so we're not blogging or doing show notes because the music part is the other content Yeah, I mean I I felt like you know There's enough of me out there as a musician that the podcast was just kind of the next logical step because you know I sure as hell. I'm not a journalist You know, but I you know, I approached my show the genesis of it from a What would the 13 year old jamie want to know from all of his favorite drummers? You know, I approached it from from that angle. So I just agree with you about not being a journalist I think once you sit behind the microphone and start interviewing someone else It's your job to get the story That you just described the story that people listening want to know Like you are a journalist whether you think of yourself that way or not Once you start interviewing somebody that has something interesting to say that might change or inspire or entertain someone else I was gonna say for a guy that's not a journalist you broke the story that king's x Yeah, you broke the story Like you're not yeah, let me let me rephrase. I'm not a very good journalist How's that? I'm I'm an untrained Untrained journalist is is but you know, I mean I just I I don't know if I'm getting my point across as well as I would like but I feel like My musical life my recording my my touring Is the other content for me on top of the podcast or vice versa I do like the idea of being everywhere like I do kind of subscribe to the pat flin school of marketing because You really don't know where and how people are going to want to consume you It doesn't mean do the same content everywhere, but it doesn't necessarily mean resort to blogging like I can have a podcast and do a lot of instagram stories And post funny stuff on facebook and none of it is the same But all of it gives people a tiny idea of what i'm like and then wherever they are they get something from me Even if it's not the exact same thing every time and then if they want to check out the other stuff You send them there so that everything is sort of like a cycle that sends them elsewhere You list the social on the podcast on the you know Then they go on the social that you mentioned the podcast on the social So you're kind of always sending them someplace. I am surprised when I See a podcaster who doesn't have their podcast like in their twitter like a link Like I hear you have a podcast sometimes. I want to be on their website. Like it is so common. What? Is a podcast, but where is it? I was I'm amazed at how The things that aren't on a website and then like you said things that are on twitter and facebook people on facebook They're commenting all the time on facebook and you're like, yeah, I want to go listen to their podcast and you go I can't find it and then you have to type in their name podcast and you're like, yeah, so What about the people who complain they can't grow? We can't grow. Where's our audience? Well, have you looked at your twitter feed? You are not posting a link to your show Yeah I think that's just marketing 101. I think people are so You know, that's the one thing that I feel like I did get correct in that I knew how to chain all of it together right to make sure the podcast is on my personal website That there's a link to the podcast on my twitter feed on facebook on instagram all of those different things so But I think a lot of people just want to jump into their show and they forget about telling people where to consume it Yeah, I think one of the questions too is what do you consider yourself first? Like I could be a youtuber with a youtuber with a podcast and I've got my youtube link But at least if I go to youtube, is it obvious you have a podcast? I mean this guy I was watching this channel yesterday And he's he mentioned several times in the video We you know the camera that we used on the podcast looks better. I'm like where's and I went in his playlist Not there was no podcast playlist. There was an episode something, but that was like a q&a I was like dude. I am trying to consume your stuff, but what do you consider yourself first? I don't know if everyone here even considers himself a podcaster first There is a limited amount of links you can have but if you're going to send them to your Like I talked about myself as a brand so if I put ray ray or tega.com if you go there You can jump off to any of my properties from there. So hopefully the thing you do have linked Then leads to at least your podcast if if You're interested in having people find your podcast. I think the term you're looking for is influencer Yeah, no, I'm not looking for that term Look, I know But the classic the classic definition of influencer is not the same as the kind of influencer that I'm talking about Like that is the technical term even if you're not posing your sorry on a beach in hawaii Like you're still an influencer in that you are a content creator who does have sway with the people who consume your content It is in various different forms. You are open to having. I don't know if you personally are open to having but you can be open to having um collaborations and You know advertisements on your content like that I I that's really the only term that sums up all those things like you can be a youtuber and an instagram But what are you first like really first you're a your content creator? Yes to me as an influencer Right. I like content creator But it's just because we go now we go in like five year spurts where one word becomes like yucky, right? So consultant became an ugly word for a while a while back And then I think influencers the word of the last couple decades of people now here and go Ew or like affiliate marketer. Oh that that got real dirty, right? Because people abused it, right? So No, I have no problem with influencers and it's an accurate term the one that the kids are all You know that I hear all that yeah, well younger than me Jessica and her friends Thought leader, you know, I mean you hear that all the time. That's a good thought leader. That's like a classic one I feel like that's like that's the guy in stage that if you were on stage it would probably yeah But that one's that one's fallen into bad shape nowadays, but you know for me I define myself as as drummer or musician so You know Everything revolves around that and quite honestly You know in terms of my show It was you know, I've been a musician all these years. I've met all these really cool people, but You know Jerry Gaskell didn't know who I was before I reached out and said hey, would you come on my show? And he was like sure I'd love to so for me. It's a really good Opportunity to network amongst my colleagues, you know, so I mean I think I think it does depend on how you're going to define yourself You know, it's just a fun side effect for me Yeah, it just I think General advice to round out the topic is if you're going to have a podcast and you want to grow or you want people to Find that podcast. I don't know why you're doing it. Otherwise, you do want people to listen to your show Um, make sure it can be found like I don't if you're linking to Your youtube there. I think you can put a custom link in the youtube band just wherever you're linking people to That's kind of my question of what do you define yourself as because I was going to say raise your hand if your podcast is in your email signature Is it But do you consider do you is that your top priority, right? Like maybe there's something else in your email signature. Maybe there's nothing at all I mean not that I'm saying that's going to drive traffic But it just made me think of links and everywhere you put your podcast like a potential person because Jess you were kind of talking about like be everywhere, right? So like who knows when you send an email You know people send me emails and that's they have a good email It's like well mine is ray at ray or tega.com for that for some stuff or it's ray at the podcasters studio dot com Depending on who i'm emailing and people send me an email with a domain in it. I will check out their domain I don't think most people see that but I definitely have a website like I want to see what's there, right? But right now as the as the head of marketing It's rebel based media And so I don't have my podcast in there because you heard all the stuff I do at the beginning of the show I mean who who could read all that signature? It's just too much Yeah, that's what I mean sometimes and that's it sometimes you have to make a choice of like I've got one space Like you would probably would hype one hyperlink in a twitter or something like what do you choose? But hopefully whatever that is will lead people to the path Um, it's terrible when you get like Dave you get frustrated when you're trying to find you I'm actually trying to get your content and I can't do it, right? Obviously you're telling me about it somewhere and somehow I can't get to it, but anyways We'll wrap up this topic because we've gotten to no other stories classic round table Dave We change we changed the format here a little bit We used to do topics and I and then I went to news because it was just we'd done a lot of topics And it was easier to invite different people on people thought they used to have to have experience in that thing It's not really what the show is about but you bring a new story allows Any podcaster to easily come on and I don't have to find like four people who have subject matter expertise in that one topic But you know what I would say we're doing a blend because this is I've noticed a trend since we've started doing this I think somewhere after like episode 100 or something We spent at least the first top half of the show basically doing a topic. This was a topic This was an old actually have an additional question on this topic But if you want to wrap it up we can this is a whole we could we could keep going on this one Which it's totally fun. I wish in real time, you know what we need like periscope Does the hearts we need like hearts to float up so we like do you want to keep going or should we get to Some news stories because there's good stuff here. I don't know what's your question I was going to ask what you answer when people see serai. We've never met before. What do you do for a living? So we talked about on the last on the last one because we talked about We did an article about like how do you like what do you tell your parents or your family or something like that? It was something about that or just if you're somewhere like the girls or whatever It totally depends on who I'm talking to I usually get a vibe of like this person I don't know how you know, whatever. Uh, I will say a lot of times I'll say audio video production Because everyone knows that and those are my two things But I'll sometimes I'll say content creator or I'll say audio video production specializing in podcast Sometimes they'll say professional podcast producer. It really does depend on who I'm talking to What do you say? Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say I I even like I think last time was talking about how I admit There was like a little bit of embarrassment like I'd go to an adult party Right like 10 years ago and I'd say yeah, I wouldn't say people go. What do you do and I'm a lawyer? I'm a doctor or I'm a whatever I'm like I'm a podcast or podcast producer people like I don't ever are you just playing in your garage and your wife makes all the money I was like, no, I actually have a job It's a real thing people Yeah, that's why I asked you because I very rarely say podcaster because people the look is not a welcome look It's getting better. It's getting better Yeah, I tell people I'm a digital nomad Nice. No, I'm an influencer. I didn't want to admit it, but that's what I tell people in my real life I'm like heavy google me. What you don't know me? Conversation done. All right, I think you should just start telling everybody that you're Joe Rogan It's the sm7b I'm gonna have to shave my head and start punching people. Isn't that how that works? I do watch clips. So Joe, if you wanted me on the show, let's do this. Um All right, let's move on uh, Jamie, let's get to one of yours I'm actually because you mentioned the music thing and this is I almost wanted to lead with this because it's so important that The amount of audience we've lost halfway through the show. I'll go check Apple later podcast connect But this is important one to hear so podcasters sued for copyright infringement for using music without permission So I was curious what you have a name takeaway on here. What's this article about and Why do we care? Well, uh, you know I consume podcast by the way. Um, is it a picture? No, it was actually a podcast that dealt with um online poker I think And they were using You know somebody's music and and honestly, I don't know the specifics like who the artist was who the label was I'm pretty sure it was universal music group But you know when I first started thinking about starting a show I wanted to do like a You know an unsigned band kind of thing So you don't really have to deal with music licensing if it's an unsigned band for the most part because most bands want that exposure However to do it correctly You should have a contract with anyone's music That you're using on your show Um, and and Dave is a good example. He has on his website. Um, you know, I've used a king's ex song by permission Right So I get the question all the time. Um, I'll have a drummer on the show to talk about their new record You know, they want to plug their new album that they've just recorded And people will email me and say well, why didn't you play a sample of the song? Well, you know, sometimes the drummer says feel free to use it if you'd like But I don't want their label to turn around and sue me three weeks later They don't necessarily have the rights to their own music In most cases they don't right if they're signed, right? So in most cases they do not own their own publishing Wait, well, let's forget it. Jamie. I just want to use seven seconds. So I'm good Okay No, you are not and what a what a lot of folks will do is they I paid for that I downloaded I paid for I paid three bucks I'm using it Yeah, and there's two things two big things. Okay A lot of people will actually go to one of the music aggregators You know like harry fox agency easy song licensing something like that and they will pay their $29 to license a song But you're only getting performance rights meaning your band can play it live or You know, you could record it and re-release it But you cannot use it for distribution and the argument in this particular case was You can listen to a podcast on a google speaker on the amazon speaker That is new distribution that maybe the artist didn't want Well, I mean, I know the unique nature of podcasts. We you download files Like you're actually downloading music files Yeah, it's a mechanical rights is what screws the whole thing up because you need permission from the songwriter the song performer which in many cases is the same person and then whoever owns the mechanical rights, which is typically The record label and oh, I forgot though, but I've been doing it for 100 episodes and I never got caught so Well, and you may get away with it for forever and ever and ever you may never get caught Um, you know, it it's kind of like the old napster thing It wasn't an issue until it was an issue right and This was the first case that I've seen where an actual podcaster was sued By a rights holder saying you're infringing on a copyright. So does this open the floodgates? I don't know um Go ahead Dave. The thing they did that was stupid is they were warned. They said hey quit doing that Yeah, they got this cease and desist and ignored it and ignored it So there's there's the big idea right there if you get a cease and desist I think it would be a good idea to cease and desist, but Yeah, we're only moments away from apple podcast getting content id I I can't believe it doesn't exist already, right? So you do this on youtube. You're caught immediately the bots catch you Right, but I love the solution that youtube has come up with because a lot of times Either they'll demonetize so you can't monetize that and then they'll monetize against your channel If you're using like a taylor swift song, they'll sell it right there as an mp3 or link to her album or something They've made it so that like If you did if you did use copyright a they'll catch you but b They'll then give the artist what they deserve as opposed to like just taking down your video I don't think that works in all cases But yeah, the fact that this doesn't exist in podcast yet blows me away because at some point I mean, maybe it's because we don't upload right. It's the host. So Dave, right? I'm pretty sure Maybe that's maybe that's on you guys and jessica you could work with the host as well So Maybe that's why we haven't seen it, you know because it doesn't get hosted on apple They don't they don't scan it the way you would if you were hosting the audio I mean i've i'll be at libson three years in february and As far as I know they we've had at least one takedown because somebody was using an m&m song So rob would know better than I would but I know he told me the one time He's like, yeah, we had to because they contact lips and lips and then rips it down and then we contact the podcaster to go Don't do that Well, most of most of the hosting companies I'm pretty sure puts some language in their agreement saying if you're using You know, if you're infringing somebody's copyright will squash you Okay, you know kind of thing so that's it's also worded so that it's your responsibility You are saying by hosting here that you're not going to do this so that way It indemnifies the host Essentially the new player in the market and the new challenge for podcasters is spotify and pandora, right spotify was freaked out About taking podcasts because of music and so I guess in the beginning when they rolled out They had this super limited right only certain shows got picked I mean they went to like libson and stuff and other hosts and said give me if some shows And they were highly curious now. They've opened it up and I think that they're More um, they're not as worried about it. I don't know I don't know what the process is there, but yeah, I mean you can't have music in your podcast I don't know how it works and you're like even like royalty free that you are allowed like you pay for and you're allowed to distribute I don't know I don't know how it works with I mean my shows I just got music that I paid for but I can speak from a little bit of experience my show. I use one of my own Songs, you know a band that I played in are you on spotify jamie? Because your show is actually one of the few that might do good on spotify. It's a music show Well, yeah, and you know, that's the interesting thing of course spotify, you know, just last month announced Hey, we're going all in on podcasting. Okay, so Um, they let me slide because I can prove that I own the copyright to the song that I'm using And I'm using like you said slide or you just assume or did they actually ask you? No, it was asked, you know, do you own the rights to this and yes, I do Um, and and what's cool and I don't want to get in the rabbit hole, but I post my episodes on youtube It's an automatic thing that my host allows, you know, do you want to post this on youtube? Yes YouTube sends me an email every week the minute I publish like within two minutes. They say you Yes content has been IDed and of course, you know, I own the copyright to the music that's used But spotify's fear of podcasts Uh, initially it has gone away. They see it as a way to feed their 200 million subscribers on the music side So podcasts about music you're gonna see a an explosion of those Because spotify wants to create their own Branded shows basically they're they're gonna hire hire content creators to come in So you're gonna see a lot of new music shows and a lot of genre specific shows Um, the number one album in the country last week on on the billboard charts sold just over 800 physical copies But it had 86 million streams Think about that for just a second. That's amazing spotify Has changed the music business and now they have their sites set on podcasting as well And they will firmly grab the number two spot like Yes, they will but the thing you know funny about the number two spot. It's uh, uh, there's jokes there, but I won't go there Um It's been like wide open like that should be that should be microsoft spot They just gave it away years ago, right the whole zoom thing. They had it. Um, who didn't stitcher had it for a while And then uh, but spotify came on and quickly became because no one really felt google should hands down be the number two I mean They they kind of are number twoing it right now. Okay. I made the joke But yes, they they should be number two But spotify I think has grabbed it and then it's going to be a competition between Pandora and spotify and that number two is always up. No one gets close to apple I mean like not even close Um, which is interesting because you know, there's debates about whether apple's doing enough to even Earn that number one, but they've got it and then kudos to them for being their first sleeve You think what? I think they have something up their sleeve. I think they have some kind of magic like no, I think they're dripping very You know one drop at a time into whether or not they want to do this like they came out with like the podcast connect like tips for podcasting which was like So terrible And then you know like they're just slow like this and that To sort of dip their toe into whether or not they want to put more Effort into their podcasts. We have such a large notice like after all this time There's no movement Yeah, I feel like I don't know. I mean you got to innovate not innovate. We got to give more Every once in a while, but I it feels like they've been coasting for a long time But I also feel like that might not be fair to say because I don't know I think they're They're doing a good job people say they use the app and they just still can't figure out but How are they doing a good job people hate the app? They're they're um, their charts are easily gamed What they're not they're I don't think they're doing such a great job. We're a spot and they make it impossible to share But I'm I'm I'm I'm thinking in terms of They don't just lose their market share like it doesn't just go away like we hear it because we we Talk into a bubble. We scream into the damn thing But like most average podcast consumers they use Apple podcasts and we don't hear about the problem. So People aren't They're not dropping the ball in in the in the mass I guess audience for the mass audience they for us. They are but I think it's I think it's follow the money if you look at, you know Spotify is going to spend a whole lot of money on podcasting over the next two three years Apple doesn't have to spend that money because they already had 90 percent market share You know, so I think they're In a way resting on their laurels But they also don't mind though what we've always said about apples like they don't make money from podcasts So like we understand that they have three people running the whole show Like it's not a revenue like we always were kind of scared that they would even Just kind of let it go because that doesn't make money from but you know, it brings people to the store So does it really not make money? We don't I don't know if we know that if spotify starts making money They're going to be very very angry about it because they didn't think of it first And I do think spotify will pull ahead as the number one place people listen to podcast because it's It's someplace where you can have both your music and your everything you listen to all in one spot You can't really get that anywhere else. I mean But you can't have a podcast you can't get podcasts You need a totally separate app bold prediction. How long is it going to take Jessica? Um, don't listen to this show so you can just say it two weeks. I yeah tomorrow. No, I mean I don't know. I'd like to say let's say you'll start to see this shift by the summer No, I mean, yeah, it's they have so far. It's really making a lot They're really working hard to be on the podcast. They're developing their own They're doing their own ads in there like they're moving pretty fast So they're trying to at least But You can always go to apple. You can always go to apple and not get ads Like like the ad thing doesn't necessarily seem an advantage for the listener because they'll be like Yeah, my favorite show is being supported at the same time I don't get ads in that same damn show over at apple podcast. It's not injected into my show Yeah, that's why that's why I don't listen stitcher. Yes, exactly bingo I used to I was a big stitcher fan and then It went from playing an ad in between every episode to playing an ad every time I hit pause And grid was garbage but but but they threw ads so I would always tell people Here's the thing people freaked out about that like they'd say I don't want to be on stitcher because they put ads in my Content blah blah blah and I said look the people who are listening to your show on stitcher Don't care or they they would listen to somewhere else like don't let your content not be heard like you bothers you It does not bother your listener. All right, but if people are concerned you say hey go over to Apple podcast I have no ads there You do you have to be careful though because this is why blog talk radio doesn't exist anymore Oh, also because their audio was terrible. I guess It exists. They just don't They don't exist. They just pretending there's a website We're gonna get approached at another conference now now andy andy's gone There was a very very weird moment in my life when approach me the CEO of blog talk grabbed me in a bar I was like, who are you and what are you doing? To say hi or grab you it was a metaphor for stepping in front of me and stopping me, but he might as well grabbed me Yes, it happened to Dave. It happened to you too. We it was I don't know what podcast movement It was the first one or something. It was in Why are you talking about about my stuff? He didn't say that at all And it was a ballast. My favorite thing is is he walks over and he goes Hey, are you Dave Jackson and I'm like, yeah, and he's like, oh good Because I'm I'm andy from blog talk radio. I was like, yeah when he introduced me when he introduced himself for blog talk I was like, yeah, yeah, what part do I cover? Is he gonna kick me or Why did you do anything? It's the truth hurts Steve steward grabbed a phone and starts videotaping it All the coos to andy because a for showing up there b for saying go Please tell me more and they tried to fix it and I'm not sure what happened, but they tried The last I heard they were battling physics Because they had a really I was a beta tester They had a really cool thing where you could call into their phone via VoIP So it didn't sound like a phone anymore And they just could not get it to work 100% of the time this is the hd system Yeah, that's what hd was didn't work. It's pretty slick. They just couldn't get it to work You know, you can't say well only one out of a thousand You know, we lose the interviewer and I'm just pulling that number completely out of my butt But you can't lose anybody's interview so they could not From what I understand and that's I have no inside information But I he just said they were battling physics in a uh, a slightly drunken stupor one evening when he was Can you please quit kicking my company, man? Like stop beating us up. Yeah. All right. Hey, well, we managed to actually Get jamie's other story in started with we because the other one was a Spotify one, but you increased focus on podcasts. Yeah, so kudos, um, we have a little more time Dave, what did you put up here? We don't care. Well, this is one that I just No, I was gonna ask Jessica what you wanted to talk about. I don't know but go ahead. Tell us it's one little thing um, it's on uh, james kirtland site about how Anchor is saying they are, you know, they've brought so much advertising Dollars into the space of which I still like to point out that I have a test show on anchor and my sponsor Is anchor. So what you think is money coming into them is money going out But um, james pointed out james kirtland over pod news net said that 93 of anchor shows are already pod faded and to me I was like man, we're all talking about discoverability and there's so many shows and you can't find anything and i'm like Well, I know a company that's like littering the highways of podcasting right now With dead shows and I was just like I don't think anybody thinks about that um And just the fact that that a when you sign up over there and you let them submit your show everywhere You not only can you not look at podcast connect stats? I totally forgot you can't look at your stitcher stats either Here's what that was if podcasting were a city anchor would be the ghetto But anyway, that was my only point. I just I didn't realize that they were The 93 of the shows over there are pod fading. I was like, well, there's no skin in the game so it brings up a super interesting question to me like We kind of always said a podcasting is too hard Um, and a lot of times we we reference that from the listener side. It's too hard to listen to a podcast That's one of the barriers once it's in cars. We're all going to be rich blah blah blah, right? Not true But also from the production side and I've always said that I enjoy that pod starting a podcast is not necessarily Super easy because it weeds out Some of stuff that would just be bad or didn't have any effort So It's not necessarily bad that anchor created a platform that makes it super easy for anyone to podcast I mean so all those people those 93 of shows if that's right, it seems awfully high But all those people at some point decided I want to try this and they tried it and they're like, I'm out of here Right because guess what it's hard. It's hard to stick around. It's hard to stick around doing anything I mean like just try even if you're just like a instagrammer and like you post one picture like every other day That's hard. Like anything consistently is hard. So that's what they are finding out about podcasting. It's not starting. That's hard It's staying there. So But this is a problem, right? So now apple podcast is just littered as you mentioned the littered highway with dead podcast and and probably just a lot of really bad content so You know, this was clearly not I it feels like this shows us that Making it easy to create a podcast is not an it's not a Answer or it's not a good idea or I don't know. I mean, what do we think of that? I mean, that's what it's what I'm seeing like make it easy. Lots of people will try and they'll leave but now You know those feeds are alive because anchors free unless anchor goes down Apple's not going to get rid of those feeds Yeah, you know, I mean, I think To use an analogy from the music world There are hundreds of thousands of pawn shops littered with guitars of people that bought a guitar saying i'm going to learn to play guitar, right? Um, it's this isn't easy staying with anything is not easy um, you know, some of the hosts even have You know an app for your phone where you can literally podcast into your Stinking smartphone, you know hit a button Say some words hit another button and it publishes to your feed. I mean, why would you do that? That's my question. I mean, I don't I don't know I mean, do I need to podcast from, you know, the basketball game that I go to this weekend? Probably not um You know, I think making podcasting easier for people to get into it Is a good idea. We we need more good content But if you if your show is only going to last two weeks There has to be some mechanism a universal mechanism in my opinion that gets rid of those dead feeds What if those were like those two weeks were just super amazing content that I actually that people want to listen to I mean, that's why shows still do people complain all the time. Oh, that podcast hasn't published an episode in five years But it ranks above my podcast. Yeah, because people still like that content. Like it's not bad content. They're just done with it So what do you do about that? Like how do you how do you draw the line? It's tough. Yeah, it is I mean, I don't know who becomes the content police, but you know, it's it is a very good point that The world is littered with dead shows that maybe Isn't such great content So mark wrote a whole by boss slash friend mark asked with word a whole article about why anchor isn't the villain in the podcasting story and his point is that First of all, they're because they've made it so easy for anyone to podcast They're they're really primed for being bought by someone like apple or spotify um, the other part is that You know as much as it irritates us like it sort of pushes us to Think about how to do our products better. How can we make it easier for people without having the litter problem? I agree The it's one of the things we went. Hmm. Okay. Maybe we could do this a little easier Well, I mean even so what it's uh Yeah, but but delete what's older than three months without I mean, how old is that to be because lc's show hasn't been updated like the yoga kula Yeah, five years and she gets a 500 a day What what are you gonna do like how do you how do you? Yeah, because there are shows out there like s town There's a show that hasn't put out an episode in probably a year I'm not sure when that show maybe if it hasn't had a listener in three months you get rid of it not content Yeah, I was starting to lean that way too like yeah sub 100 listeners are like It's just gonna be a painful email to get hey, no one's listening Peace out Right before or or add something new to the feed like I don't that doesn't seem like that's a thing. I don't It's gonna be tough, but I think it's Dear podcaster You suck That would be that would be a hard email to get you know, I mean maybe it's more Maybe more the responsibility lies on the um on the host where they're they should To have some type of interaction with their user where it says hey, we notice you're not posting Do you still want to keep this like if you just ask people if they want to pull it off? I bet you could clean half of it people like yeah, I don't want that to pull it off Go ahead and I think ego would make them keep it up I mean You'd still solve you'd still get some of it Come on. That's a good solution not complete. No it is. I like that they should Because I was gonna say well they could clean up your s stuff I was gonna swear but then I have to put explicit on it. Well, here's the thing with with a quote normal Media host be it pod being blueberry podcast websites. Libsson when you don't pay your bill You're paid Right, but when you're Lay there, it's gonna stay there forever unless you're z-cast. Don't worry frank. Hey lanker's not gonna survive I mean, this is their third iteration of being something they used to be cool I used to love it was the best best app I didn't use I mean, it was absolutely my favorite when you could talk to your audience and hear their voice back was incredible Um, they found something with podcast, which is interesting. I mean they pivoted the podcast and you think Whatever, they definitely found something and people there's plenty of articles about how they're pushing the space And I don't think they're necessarily bad. They had some bad They had a bad start. Um, some of their practices were not good, but You know, it's an interesting question like is making things easier Good or bad and you have both sides of it. So Well, I think it's the old adage, you know, the and I say it on my show all the time The good news is anybody can make a record or a podcast. The bad news is anybody can make a record or a podcast, right? And that's the beauty. I yeah, it's open and anyone can do. I mean, I love that. That's that's fantastic. That's cool But you know, it's like there's a the public parks are open, but people still throw their gum wrappers all over the place That's really the point Well, nice to have public parks, but don't pee in there. It's all we're saying. Yeah, and open the government's song clean that garbage up, please That's not a political show All right, well I think we carried ourselves to an hour Good job, everyone. It's fun applause. Good. Maybe you'll come back. Thank you. I don't want to find you Let's see if you regret this later and then we'll talk about it The chat you're popular in the chat. So you have to come back. Am I awesome? Thanks guys. That's awesome people's Stoke to see you. I think Get to lc frankly They are you like they just make you the same person No, they come up to me I'm such a big she podcast. I love lc Can we just can I call you jelsie? Can I just want to do the mashup like you're a couple things We're like laurel and hardy. Have you ever noticed? Or a hippo. Oh my god Else the giraffe. She's a trap Yeah, she's the giraffe and I'm the hippo. No people come up to me all the time and they're like I'm such a big fan of she podcast. I love lc so much You're like, yeah, I just I just added the show. I was like, yeah, she's pretty awesome No, I love her too, but I mean it's just funny Go out of their way to tell me anyway Yeah, it's really fun. Thank you so much for having me Where where can we find your podcast me? Um, she podcast.com. It's probably the best place. Thank you. All right, Dave You know when people meet me, they just ask where Dave is so He's all a famer. I mean I get it. I love Dave Jackson He can find me over at uh school of podcasting.com the last time I checked still there Last time I email myself. I actually asked where Dave Jackson was I said I miss you Dave. All right. It's only once every two weeks. We got to take this show once a week, man Why not? No, come on. I don't want to do too much work. And Jamie, thanks for joining us for your first round table Yeah, thanks. Uh, I'd love to come back if you guys will have me if I didn't you know soil the place up too bad Yep, bring out those drums Yeah, I think I might have some sticks over here actually Yeah We'll get the band back together. Let's say everyone's got everything Dave bring your guitar just gonna bring the piano We're gonna rock this thing. I can't wait. We're actually gonna. Ooh, we're gonna be so big on spotify. I'm so stoked We're gonna rock this town. All right, turn it inside out. Wait, are we gonna get Content id for that? Isn't this thing? Oh Do we owe somebody money now? Now we gotta pay. Thanks a lot. Are the stray cats still around? I don't know if they are Stray cats, you know, it's funny because anyways, I thought Stray cats is just another word for a queen. I thought it's like the same band. There's a queen song No, no, I just there's a song I always thought was stray cats. Turns out I saw the queen movie. It was queen. So Which one I'm curious now Yeah, crazy little thing. How is that not a stray cat song? No, that's not it. Yeah, that is it Yeah, come on. Yeah, I could see that They made themselves into all kinds of different bands All right. Yeah, that's why they're awesome exact moment where we know to leave We will see you next time podcast around table dot com slash guest if you are still listening You are the type to go to that url sign up We'll get you on a round table and we'll just we'll talk Well, I'll make you submit stories and we won't talk about them and we'll have the best time So I'm looking forward to seeing you. All right wave. Goodbye. We are out of here. Oh, no, don't hang up I just yell. I just peaked all my audio. Hold on. So google's let me continue broadcast Are you still here? I love it. That's fun. Bye