 were live on Thursday at the two o'clock block here on the military in Hawaii. We're talking about civilian aids to the secretary of the army today with Gil Tam and Noa Lani Kalipi. I know Noa Lani since she was a small child. I know Noa Lani. Hi Gil. Hello. How are you doing, Jay? Aloha. So what does it mean to be a civilian aid to the secretary of the army, Gil? Well, it means that for me to be able to assist the army in its messaging, support of what they do and what they do for our community as well. So as a veteran, you know, I've been beneficiary of what the army has done for me educationally, as well as career-wise. And I think that those who are in the military benefit from what the army can do for them in their careers, in their families. And that's really one of the rules that we do is to help not only recruit, but it's kind of the total army from cradle to grade. If you get into the army, they want to take care of you from the start all the way to finish in terms of civilian life after the army. I was in a comparable organization attended to the Coast Guard. And what they did is they took care of Coast Guard dependence while, you know, the sailors were at sea, which was very important for morale and all kinds, you know, and family stability and the like. Do you include that? Do you include people who were on deployment, you know, and you're going to take care of their family and help them as necessary? Yeah, they want us to be able to assist all of the programs that support families, you know, so that when they are deployed or if they have needs beyond what resources they have available, whether it's through their compensation or whatever the army is able to provide for them. If it needs to be supplemented, there are other organizations within the military that provides for families. And so it is not just the soldier, it's all the family unit as well. That's great. So let's drill down a little bit on your military career. First, it seems to me it strikes me that in the role of a civilian aid secretary of the army, you want to have somebody who has some military experience, no? Do you agree with that? And let me add, what benefit is there that you were, that you had a career in the army? Well, for me, it's really kind of the language so that you understand, you know, what soldiers are going through. You know, one of the things that I had the privilege of being on active duty, National Guard and the Reserves. And really our number one focus as a cast is to support the Guard and Reserve. Why? Because they're citizen soldiers and they're out and about in the community. So I just felt that I was privileged to have had the three components to be able to understand what it is to be on active duty and then also to be a part-time soldier. But what rank did you reach? I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. Okay, that's with 25 years. 25 years of service. Yeah. But it was again, active Guard and Reserve, so 7, 13 and five years. Well, so, Alani, can you talk about, I remember the day I met you. I remember sitting in Senator Akaka's office and he was the chair of the Veterans Administration Committee in the United States Senate. You had to have plenty of contact with the veterans and the military in that capacity, right? Yes. I also helped staff him in his role as the subcommittee chair for readiness on the Senate Armed Services Committee as well. And so, you know, in answering the question about military service, I have a little bit of a different story in that while both of my grandfathers were veterans from World War II, I grew up in a time when there wasn't that much focus on supporting the military, right? In the 80s, we were, you know, fighting for social equality and there was always this crux between funding going for military spending and whereas there are social issues with education, housing, etc., you know, during the Reagan era and my involvement with the military had never envisioned going into the military and I was in a situation where I kind of was dared to do it after law school and I ended up doing it, but it was really a very good experience because I went in with a different perspective and it definitely helped me to understand what they were doing and why it is important. But also in coming out and having been in the military and working with civilian and doing the jobs and the work that I do now, it helps me to bridge, right, the understanding between where people who don't have military experience can better understand what's happening and what it's about, right, as opposed to, you know, just trying to say, well, this is what it is, right, really kind of serving more as the bridge. The bridge, that's exactly what I was going to ask you about. You read my mind. You guys are the bridge, but it's more than just a bridge between you as civilians at this point and the military. It's a bridge between you and the families of the military and the military. You're connecting there and you're connecting the community to those families and to those, you know, soldiers in the military. So it's like three or four constituencies. This is, I'm just getting this as much as saying, and you're the bridge between all of them. Am I right? And under Secretary Warmont, she's also including total army, so she's also including army civilians in that as well. So, you know, so it's the connecting with everyone who's involved with the army, you know, before, during, and after. Well, Gil, let me turn to you and ask you about another bridge possibility. That's the contractors. You know, it's, there was a time, I think, I can't say when exactly, when the military didn't have a whole lot of contractors, when they were just, you know, relied on themselves. But, you know, I guess after the Second World War and through all the wars, the small wars since, the United States military has learned that it can delegate a lot of work, sometimes even fighting work to contractors. And it has done so. And the question is, as a civilian aid and Secretary army, are you also building bridges with contractors who do work for the army? Yeah, Jay, I am a contractor as well with federal, federal contracts. And yes, it is building bridges with them as they are really participants in the business community. And so you're actually bridging the business community when you look at what companies do or businesses do to make a decision whether to outsource or not outsource. Is there a benefit for that? You know, are you, is there cost savings? Can you do something better through outsourcing? So it is a bridge. And I think when you look at our community, we have Native Hawaiian organizations that are out there who work alongside their civilian counterparts in the military as well as those in uniform. But at the same time, it is helping the business community, those that are economically disadvantaged, especially when you talk about Native American Indians, the Alaskan Native corporations, and also Native Hawaiian organizations as a way of getting the community participating, especially those that have been economically disadvantaged to be able to be working alongside and with our federal agency. So I think it's an important part of our economy here in Hawaii, that we have contractors that can also employ others. And at the same time, build bridges among the different sectors of our economy. You know, it gets more complicated. In Hawaii, that seems easy. It should happen. But in other places, maybe in a war theater, it's not so easy. Because for example, if you're a nation building as we tried to do in Afghanistan over 20 years, and you want to do a lot of work in the community, and you don't want to expose your troopers so much, so you bring in contractors to do this, that, and the other thing. And in a way, that's probably helpful to a degree. But in another way, and the effort in Afghanistan to criticize for this, is that the contractors kind of defused the mission. And they were not necessarily on board, as somebody in uniform, subject to the uniform code and all that would be. An active duty trooper would be perhaps better to follow the mission of doing what had to be done in Afghanistan, where if you bring in a contractor, he hasn't taken the same oaths. And he may not feel the same way about the mission. And some have said that we use so many contractors and spend so much money on contracting in Afghanistan. That was an element in losing our way in that 20-year effort. What are your thoughts? Well, Jay, I really can't speak to that, mainly because I think some of the, when you look at specific contracts and contractors, it all depended upon what was happening at the time. When our company, for instance, has the responsibility, and we do have some contract work with the Department of State, there's a lot of training that goes into those who are actually going to be deployed alongside surveillance, both the warfighter and the surveillance in a hostile area. But they have to go through the same kind of training. And while I understand that they're not taking an oath, I think that they have a real understanding not only of the risks and the dangers involved in it. And so it's something that they have to personally understand and then also ensure that they're in compliance with not only the regulations, but all of the requirements that of their contract in serving the military in those hotspots. No, Mulani, let me turn to you on generally the same subject. It's been made clear in the press that the military now and through the 20 years in Afghanistan was 1% of the population of the United States. And that would mean out of a population of about 330 million, we had 3 million in uniform. That's a small percentage when you compare it to the days of, percentage-wise, the days of Vietnam and the draft and so forth until the draft was terminated, when this small percentage began happening. Is it a good idea to have such a small percentage of people in the United States in uniform where the civilian population back at home may not fully appreciate their challenges, their risks, their problems from such a distance to such a small number of people? And query, is that the right way or would you like to see a kind of national service return to the draft now these days? The interesting discussion that we used to have a lot when I was working in policy with Senator Akaka, I can point, so to answer your question, I think there's merit to figuring out how there can be broader understanding and of what it means to give service, right? Whether it's something like AmeriCorps or whether it's something with the military, I think it's very indicative where we, the kind of evolution we've gone through at a policy level, at the federal level, there was a time when I first started working with Senator where we had a number of veterans and a number of, at that time, World War II veterans and who were in office, right? And then kind of as they transitioned out, there was a period of time where there were very few veterans who had the level of understanding and were making policy, for example. And I'm using this to answer your question because it's where my experience was, right? And then after OIF and OEF, then there was an increase in veterans serving again. So there was an increased understanding of the issues, not only of what it's like to be a soldier, sailor, airman, marine or family member, but what are the challenges, right? How do you deal with the contractors, etc. So that level of understanding is necessary for good policy. The same way that level of understanding is very helpful in shaping and holding accountable, right? What the military is supposed to be doing and or how it's functioning as a part of our democracy and a part of our country. So I think that increased understanding is always going to be very, very important. And along those lines, before we leave the bridging part too much, I also want to share that part of our role is helping the Army to understand the context of where Hawaii citizens are coming from, the history, etc., of where it's coming from. So it's not only helping to help civilians understand the Army, it's also helping the Army to understand Hawaii. Yeah, true. Because nothing is so constant as change. You get change of duty station all the time. That has not changed. Change happens all the time, juniors and seniors and everybody moving hither and yon and they come to Hawaii and they have to learn what Malahini means. So how do you help them out? It's not so easy because A, they have in many cases no experience with a unique environment. This is a unique environment. I don't need to tell you that. And they're not necessarily all that committed because they know in three years or so they're leaving again. How do you bring them together in a way so that it counts and so that they appreciate the place? I think there's a genuine interest in the majority of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and their family members in doing the best that they can. There's a duty that they feel in protecting and in connecting to the place. So that makes it a little bit easier. There needs to be, there's an investment in time in explaining the context of where people are coming from. Because many, many times for some of Hawaii residents, it's the first interaction with someone. And there's a lot of history. And since they're the person in front, you're going to share all of that history, whether it's their fault or they had anything to do with it or not because it's your one contact with a federal official or person. So it's helping them to understand that, helping them to be curious and helping them not to be as defensive, but also helping them to want to connect, inspiring them to want to be a part of it. And that's, the army has evolved a lot in terms of helping people to transition into new areas, whether it's Louisiana or Hawaii. So there is training about the importance of that, but Hawaii in itself is also very unique. Yeah, it is. So when you give them orientation about Hawaii, do you give them a kind of rose color to do, or do you tell them some of the social problems we have out here, the economic problems, the problems that we have out here? Because we do. If you know, look at the Star Advertiser any given day, we have problems. Do you tell them about that too? Well, for me personally, I do. It's all contextual, right? It's not so much speaking in a vacuum as it is often in response to, or in preparation for something that is occurring, right? So it's all relevant to a certain topic and providing and eventually everything will lead to the history, right? So you get to that contextual part, you get to explaining the perspectives, but sorry, Gail, I cut you off there. No, but at the same time, each of us who have had the opportunity to move away and then come back. Each of us have been ambassadors for Hawaii. I mean, I still get calls from my fellow officers when I was my first assignment in Germany. The way we act, the way we behave our generosity as a people, that spirit of aloha, it kind of permeates. And then so people want to know, what is it about Hawaii? And so Noe and I have had the privilege of talking and working with our army leadership, you know, like General Flynn is, this is his third time. He gets it. And it should permeate through the command and through all of the services that are here, that it is a special place. And so when we do talk about the culture, you know, you can talk about culture and talk about language, but it's a sense of place. And as a people, we have a respect for it. And, you know, that is kind of ingrained through our heritage, the connections, both Noe and I are Native Hawaiian. And so, you know, we look at that. And I also look at the other, perhaps, reporters of me, which is Chinese, you know, it's been a mix of understanding of the different cultures here, but the host culture being Native Hawaiian. I think it's a special place and we want to make sure that everybody who comes here understand that, and that they do only can to basically perpetuate what it is on the spirit of aloha. You talk about ohana and so forth. We want them to capture that so that it's meaningful and everyone who comes here experiences that. You know, I want to move to one issue that relates to age. I'm sorry, Gil. I'm not sorry to you, Noe. You know, when I was in the service, I was a young lawyer in the service. I mean, I say young, I mean, I was probably 24, 25, 26. And the command would send me the retiring breasts that I should talk to them and act as a bridge for them to get back into the civilian community wherever they were going. And I was assigned to New York, the third Coast Guard district for this. I mean, among many other duties. But what struck me, in fact, in so many words, what struck me was that senior brass, we're talking about four stripes, getting out of the service, they were terrified. They were terrified because they had had wonderful Coast Guard careers all over the world. And they had been in nurturing completely aloha, you know, kind of environment with their fellow officers and men and women. But now they were going back into the, you know, the hard scrap, scrapple of the civilian community. And they knew that it was different. They didn't know how different it was. And they came to me, I was 25 years old, they came to me and they said, help us understand because we are terrified of going back, trying to get a job, you know, integrate back into a civilian society. Does that happen to you? Do you handle that? And what do you say when they ask you? Well, you know, I pretty much have been doing that ever since I got out of the Army. I went to work for Bank of Hawaii and I actually ran the management training program. So I did a lot of mentoring and actually recruiting Hawaii kids to go into banking. And, you know, we definitely had goals for Native Hawaiians, Filipinos, you know, in terms of the EEO affirmative action program way back then. But I think that it's something that you should be able to do if you're in the civilian community. And that's why the bridge thing is very important. When I moved from the National Guard, I made a move to the reserves and I was an individual augmentations, augmentee in the reserves. And my assignment was US Army Japan. So I would go there on a part time basis. And they were drawing down at that time after the Gulf War. And these kids were deathly afraid of being able to now have to go out in civilian life. They were subject to the RIF reduction and force. They had options and they had to make decisions because if they chose the wrong option, they may not get a retirement. So when I went to Japan, I spent most of it because my background is HR. I spent a lot of time writing resumes for folks. And then giving them contacts who they should be talking to, what do they want to do? A lot of people know what they don't want to do. The biggest thing for soldiers who want to come out, they should try to understand and we need to help them understand what they want to do so we can help them. But obviously the language of being a infantryman versus someone in the business community is just the translation of what you do. It's really about managing people. It's about operations, whether it's in the bank or whether it's in the military. So it's trying to take that that language and melding it together so that both the civilian and the military soldiers coming out or the military service member can explain what they did in the military because it is what they've done is extremely helpful to I think businesses in especially in leadership and dealing with other people. Many have, especially during deployments, they have been in charge of multi-million dollar equipment and so forth, which they don't have when they come back, right? So it's something that they have to understand and make the adjustment and I think we have a responsibility to help them make that transition. And I think that's one of the reasons the CASA program exists is so that you can help them make that transition. Yeah, and they make great executives. They make great employees. In my law firm, back for years and years, we always appreciated the retiree or the military wife or spouse because they were terrific. They were all terrific and you knew they had this kind of solidarity of having experienced a military career or military life. But I want to turn it the other way, Noelani, okay? So okay, the military is 1% of the country. Military is still and probably will be. I'm sorry to say because I don't I believe in a draft. That's me speaking. I believe in national service. So I believe it. But it'll be this way, the volunteers for us for a long time. And that leaves open the point of recruiting. It leaves open the point of recruiting right now because I think the military is going to kind of transition a transformation given the end of Afghanistan and various other things that have happened within the service and how the military kind of, you know, has a kind of echo effect on the civilian and governmental communities and federal communities in general. It's complicated now. It is not nearly so easy as it was really. But my question to you, we can explore this in this whole area. My question is what about recruiting? You know, because it makes a great or at least historically, a life in the service either is offshore or enlisted makes a great career, a wonderful extended family, and probably from a point of view of, you know, the the morale and morality of life in the military now, never better. I believe that I'm not sure I'm right, but I believe that. So tell me about what it's like as you explain it to a possible person to be recruited. Well, I think the the military and specifically the army is is adjusting to to the change in threats, right? There's always a transition. There's always so so the things that are very relevant to our young adults today, like cybersecurity, like gaming, like all of those things have very real application for skills and jobs and training within, you know, in the army. So when I'm speaking with and I'm not a recruiting specialist, but when I'm speaking to young students who are and or young adults who are interested, you know, I'm looking for well, what are your interests? And let's see what is available in the army? And how do you, you know, how can you use that similar to the way you do a college, right? What is the training? What is the, you know, what is the certification you're going to be able to get? And what are people who are leaving the service in these areas doing and what are the opportunities for them? Right? Whether it's diplomacy, whether it's working for tech companies. I mean, there's a there's an amazing amount of training that that is being done. And a lot of it is in cyber, a lot of, you know, there's just so much to protect our country that we need that training in right now. And so, you know, it starts with finding out what is of interest to those students and then seeing is there a connection? Is there a program? Is there an occupation within that that also meets the needs of our national security? You know, patriotism is really important. It's important to me. I know it's important to you guys. It's important to the country. And sometimes, you know, like now, there's an argument about it. It's not clear as maybe it used to be. Except, I mean, I'm very emotionally patriotic. That's how I am personally. But query in Hawaii, for some people, you know, for considerations of sovereignty and the overthrow and all that, they may not feel very good about United States and about the role of Hawaii in the United States and about patriotism. And I wonder if this pops up in your discussions with these possible, these people who might be recruited and in, you know, the world in Hawaii as it relates to the military. Do you find people who are, what's the opposite of patriotism? Whatever that is, do you find that? Definitely. Definitely. And people have very many different diverse views. And it all comes from their experience and how they view and what their perspective is about the legal and political relationship of the history of Hawaii and Hawaii's relationship with the United States. Right. So in those discussions, it's again, an exploration of where they're coming from, what leads to those perspectives and then how that relates in reality and in real time to the world we're living in right now. And some of those people are not the most ideal to want to serve in the United States Army, but some of them may want to, right? So you have, we have the discussion, right? And so that, but definitely those perspectives are there. And it's not so much just, you know, saying thank you very much when you have that, but really kind of diving down and saying what does that, what leads you to that and so what does that mean, right? And because we have to build understanding regardless of whether it's in a recruiting standpoint or whether it's just talking about why is the Army training here and or what's happening and why do we have to have so much military in Hawaii to begin with? I love your straightforward answers, honestly. I really appreciate that. Candor is so important to these discussions. So Gil, I've saved a special question for you. Special, that's capital, special. Okay, so we have issues now where people in uniform are criticizing other people, other seniors in uniform in Washington. We have people out of uniform, you know, civilians who are criticizing military about what happened in Afghanistan and the like. We have one big issue right now with General Milley on whether he, you know, went beyond his authority, exercised a civilian role when he contacted, you know, the Chinese, his counterpart in China. And so it puts into play, into discussion, the whole notion of I don't want to say transition, but a change in the way or at least an awakening in the way the civilian community in government and outside of government relate to people in the military. You know, where does the military fit in terms of government, in terms of command control by the White House, by the, you know, Secretary of the Army to say, Joint Chiefs and all that. And then, of course, the way the military relates to the civilian community in general. These issues have been, is it my fault? I want you to know that's not my fault. They've been brought into play now over the past few weeks at least. And I'd like to know your thoughts about it. A, am I right to say there's a transition, perhaps a new accentuated awareness? And what thoughts do you have? What concerns do you have about this issue, about civilian and military, the relationship in this country? Well, you know, that is a hard issue only from the standpoint, I think that all of us who have been in the military had taken oath, both Noyanlani and I, taken oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. And I think when profession, and it is a profession as well, it's a profession of arms. So when you take a look at that, and individuals who do speak up, I think they understand what their oath was. And at the same time, what the consequences could be should they speak up. And that's okay. I think that we fought for freedom, I think to allow for folks to be able to share their views and people to be able to understand consequences of what they do. And I think it's important that we respect what people say. And that's I think the whole thing that Noyanlani has been doing with our community, that we continue a dialogue, that it doesn't stop with a particular incident where somebody says something, and perhaps there's consequences that occur. I think the oath of office for us is to be able to recognize that we have a democracy from the standpoint that the civilian actually is the leadership is the leadership above the military. And there's a specific reason for that. So that we understand that we're not like other countries that may do things just strictly because a military wants to do something. So I think it's important that the checks and balances that occur in our democracy, it's there regardless of what people say individually or as a group. I think that's the beauty of being an American. And for me, I think it's so important to me because again, I've been a beneficiary of what the Army has done not only for me and my family, but what I think it has done for our state of Hawaii, the fact that they've been here and they do things where our civilian community can't do. I mean just the fact that the fires over on the big island, the Army just went out there and helped wherever they could to end what was going on with the wildfires. I mean, we got our National Guard anytime there's a flooding and so forth, any emergency, they're out there. So we've got to be grateful for these men and women in uniform regardless of what service because they're putting their lives on the line in the combat situation. But at the same time, helping out domestically here to help us where we just can't. We don't have the resources in which they have to be able to benefit our community. So I'm just grateful. I think that's an important point. You know, the people of Hawaii do, whether it's justified or not, they do expect that in times of distress, in times of emergency, the military here will play a role in helping and saving them, you know, work with FEMA, whatever it may be. Because, you know, there's a fair chance we're going to have extreme weather. That's the way climate change is working everywhere now. And it's a fair chance that even Oahu, it's been spared in the past, but it may be the, you know, the object of some tough weather. And I think people do have an expectation. And I'm glad to hear you say that. So one last question I will close. Okay, let me ask you first, Gil. The future, you know, this is an important post. Oahu, Hawaiian Islands, it was always an important post from 1850 on. And it seems like it's even more important now, given, you know, the way things are unfolding in the West Pacific. So my question to you was, how do you see your situation as civilian aid to the Secretary of the Army unfolding, going forward? I mean, will your workload get bigger? Will your job and your duties get bigger? What do you think is going to happen to you? And you can also speak for Noelani. Now let Noelani speak for herself. I just think that the increase in communications and being able to bring everybody to the table and continue the dialogue so that we come to resolutions on issues that need resolving and to also work towards a win-win situation. So I think that the increase will be in just trying to bring people together in such a way that the communications process, you know, there are times when, you know, I listen to my brethren who are Native Hawaiians and they didn't have a seat at the table. And what Noelani has done, you know, in facilitating the community is bringing people to the table so that the voice is heard, that we have an opportunity to listen, and individuals have an opportunity to express their thoughts, where they're good, bad, or indifferent. We just need to have that dialogue because without it, I don't think we can come up with great solutions that would be, it may not be great in many minds, but at least we come to the point where we know what we agree on, what we don't agree on, and let's work that the middle where we can try to move it one way or the other. And also understand that it's okay to have that in the middle, right? So I can feel that in this discussion, both of you are, you know, willing to openly discuss these things with me. I really appreciate that, but that also reveals your approach to things, to all these bridge connections and very important that you develop the credibility and the relationships that allow you to do that. So Noelani, your future, are you going to be in this for a career? How do you see it unfolding for you? Well, this is a volunteer position. We get appointed for two year terms. So I'll only get reappointed if the Army, you know, decides to reappoint me. Regardless of that, I think what Gil shared is exactly how I feel in terms of what it's going to be. You know, we're both in this position because we want to help. And I think the issues facing the Army in Hawaii, the issues facing DOD and Indo-Pecom, you know, and the issues within Hawaii are all reflective of each other. We're in a time of transition. So the critical thing is helping people to understand how they engage. What does civic engagement mean and what are the opportunities? And also the nuances with that, right? In some cases, people will say they want to seat at the table. In other cases, people will say it is our table. You can have a seat at our table, right? And it's creating the space to understand that and to have real discussion so that we can move forward and to identify where the things that we can agree matter. And let's also agree on what we disagree on and then figure out what is the path forward. And I think that's reflective not only in Hawaii and not only between military and civilian, but nationally and internationally as well. Whoever thought this thing up is a genius. Good for you guys. Good for what you're doing. Good for the way you approach it. Thank you very much for appearing on our show. Noelani Kalipe, Gil Tam. Thank you so much.