 Good morning and a very warm welcome to the 11th meeting of the constitution Europe external affairs and culture committee in 2023. We have apologies this morning from Jenny Minto MSP. I'm sure those apologies will mean that she's shortly leaving our committee and I wish to thank Jenny for her service to this committee and wish her best in her ministerial role, assuming the Parliament passes that all well this afternoon, so that our very best wishes to our colleague. Donald Cameron MSP is joining us remotely this morning. Donald is a deputy convener. Our first agenda item is to take evidence from Excellency Sturla Sieg Ur-Yonsen, ambassador of Iceland to the United Kingdom, on the priorities of the Islamic presidency of the Nordic Council of Ministers in 2023 and could invite the ambassador to make a short opening statement. Thank you very much and thank you to the committee for inviting me. It's something I've been looking forward to. I mentioned that I was here earlier in Edinburgh when we still had Covid restrictions so I wasn't able to come into Parliament at that time but this is something I've really been looking forward to. Well, Nordic Cooperation was formalised and institutionalised with the what is called the Helsinki Treaty back in 1962 so it goes back about 60 years and of course Nordic Cooperation existed at different levels in different forms before that but this was sort of when it was formalised. The two main fora are the Nordic Council which is the parliamentary forum and the Nordic Council of Ministers which is the official body for intergovernmental cooperation in the Nordic region. The collaboration extends between the five Nordic countries Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden as well as the self-governing territories of the Allland Islands, Faroe Islands and Greenland. The Nordic Council, excuse me, ministers meets regularly at most levels of government including ministers and civil servants and this is for consultations, coordination and decision making as required. In addition there is Nordic Cooperation amongst the prime ministers and the ministers of foreign affairs in the format of what is called the N5. This is not strictly speaking under the umbrella of the Nordic Council of Ministers but is nevertheless a very important component of Nordic Cooperation because that's where the senior figures are able to consult and coordinate on the issues of the day. The through line is working in areas that benefit the Nordic region applying the what is called Nordisknyte principle. It means basically in translation Nordic value and this is led by the ministers for Nordic Cooperation. There is one cabinet minister in each government which has this in most cases it's a side function of being the minister for Nordic Cooperation and they act on behalf of the prime ministers who have the main responsibility for the Nordic Cooperation. The work is supported by a permanent secretariat based in Copenhagen. The presidency which is held for a period of one year rotates between the five countries and includes setting the pace of work in a specific presidency programme which we have distributed and chairing and hosting meetings and because we're meeting at in different configurations the numbers can be quite substantial. Iceland holds the presidency in 2023 and we introduced our programme in November last under the title of the Nordic region of force for peace. The programme as the previous ones is based on our vision 2030 statement which was adopted by Nordic prime ministers in 2019 and this was during Iceland's last presidency and then we have an action plan which is based on that. According to this vision 2030 the Nordic region should become the most sustainable and integrated region as it's stated there of the world by 2030. The three priority areas are green, competitive and socially sustainable and these have been chosen to achieve that goal so the framework is already somewhat set and the chapter headings in the presidency programme indicates the main emphasis and they are a green Nordic region, a competitive Nordic region and a socially sustainable Nordic region. In addition Iceland puts emphasis on the issue of peace. As the fourth theme for the presidency Iceland decided to highlight the correlation between peace and respect for human rights welfare women rights and environmental and climate protection. An international peace conference will be held in Iceland in October this year where the two-day programme will focus on sharing findings and furthering dialogue regarding peace and this is to further the agenda of peace in view of the of the turbulent times we are we are facing at the moment. For more tangible objectives I would like to mention the advancement of digital speech development, green energy transition and maritime affairs and the further removal of unnecessary barriers to the freedom of movement within the region. There will also be a focus on young people and their involvement in society with a month-long youth agenda in November with events all over the Nordic region and which will culminate in a youth conference in Iceland. In conclusion let me mention some points regarding cooperation with Scotland. The Nordic Council of Ministers current co-operation with its neighbours in the west has grown closer during the past few years including with Scotland and we have some common conditions and challenges in terms of population distribution, large geographical areas, infrastructure challenges, North Atlantic and Arctic climates and a common dependence on the sea and maritime resources. In 2019 when Iceland last time held the presidency in the Nordic Council of Ministers the Ministers for Nordic Cooperation held a meeting in Edinburgh and this I understand this was in September 2019 and from Scotland Marie Todd, Minister for Children and Young People, was the guest of honour. There are currently some talks regarding the further strengthening of co-operation but I think I will end there for the moment and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have about the Nordic Council of Ministers or other issues relating to Iceland. Our Scottish Government is prioritising improving links with the Nordic region and has recently opened its Nordic office in Copenhagen. What the Scottish Parliament is also engaged with the Nordic Council recently indeed, the Presiding Officer myself and one of my fellow committee conveners attended the Nordic Council in Helsinki. I found it very informative, very interesting and I particularly liked the session with the ministers from the countries who were there. I found that amazing interaction with the delegates and the ministers at that time. I know my colleagues will go on to ask a little bit about the situation with Ukraine but I was wondering if I could ask a question about cultural co-operation given that the award ceremony at the Council is looking at literature, music and film. How can you see the cultural links between Scotland and the Nordic regions improving? We have also been trying to support as much as we can the Ukrainian Institute in the UK to support culture of the Ukraine. We have 26,000 refugees here. What the Council of Ministers is doing is to support the cultural protection of Ukraine at this time when their language and artefacts and museums and cultural centres are being destroyed during the war. Well, you are quite correct that through the decades there has been a cultural co-operation between the governments but which has over the most visible aspect has been the awarding different prizes at the Nordic Council meetings and perhaps not very well known outside the area but pretty well known in the area. I think the recipients, those who have been honoured, have received quite a lot of positive attention in the countries but as regards I think also what has been very sort of high in the minds of different ministers and governments through the years in the Nordic context has been the awareness of, how shall I put it, vulnerability. Iceland is by far the smallest in population terms of these countries but still they can all be classed as smaller states and they also for example contain small language areas and that goes for not least Iceland. So the what that's been I think the primary motivation in this cultural co-operation is to assist each other in maintaining cultural characteristics in a globalised world where you have so much happening and so many influences coming in and particularly in our societies which are relatively well plugged in so to speak open to the outside world. As regards to Ukraine I have to admit I'm not aware of any particular initiative taken by the Nordic Council of Ministers in that respect and I think it would probably well I think if it hasn't it is I think a good suggestion but I think it's probably because this is something which has fallen more to the national governments and then again also only a year has passed now a bit more than a year and I think it will probably take a bit longer for the host nations to react to the needs of of this relatively large group of people. I think first you have to attend to the basic needs you know housing possibly jobs education and but I think culture will follow as well. Yeah thank you I just reflect on the award ceremony I found it absolutely amazing and the fact that it was broadcast throughout the whole Nordic region and the you know the audience that had from the countries was quite spectacular and I thoroughly enjoyed that and I think you know it's a literature in our music that speaks to peace so so it was very welcome to see that at the time. Could I invite my colleagues now to ask some questions I want to invite Ms Boyack first. Thank you convener it's very good to have you in parliament today excellency and I also found the the paper that you've distributed to us is really excellent and it really frames your priorities in a very interesting way and it's titled the Nordic region force for peace and I was going to ask has the invasion of Ukraine really impacted on the work that you are doing and what has changed in terms of the invasion of Ukraine is it the impact on you've mentioned rights and there's economic issues so just to talk a little bit about that and I was also interested by the reference to peace institutes was that on your agenda before the invasion or is that someone that's come to the fore since Russia's invasion of Ukraine well the invasion of the Ukraine of Ukraine has had a great impact in the Nordic region because this is so close geographically and not least for for well Norway hasn't has a border with Russia so Finland has a very long border with Russia Sweden meets and Denmark meet Russia in the Baltic Sea we are geographically a bit more distanced but we we we feel the Russian presence and have felt it throughout the cold war and lately because of the military activity in the north Atlantic the I think what is perhaps most indicative of how far reaching the impact and the implications have been are the applications of Finland and Sweden for NATO membership if you look at this in a historical context I mean only a year and a half ago this would happen unthinkable politically but for today I mean they are just about to become members and also what has happened about I think it was about in the year 2010 or so we had the former prime foreign minister of Norway Torvald Stoltenberg the father of the current secretary of general of NATO he was commissioned with by the Nordic foreign ministers with with preparing a report on Nordic security and defence and this has since been updated but but following his report we started cooperating much closer in the area of security and defence than we had done earlier we had different alignments within the group I mean throughout the cold war you couldn't discuss hardly foreign policy but not at all security defence policy in the Nordic Council for example because you had Finland with its particular situation vis-à-vis the Soviet Union and and Sweden neutral this changed following the the end of the cold war but what this really took off as I say about 13 years ago 12 13 years ago and now we have even formalized the cooperation in what is called Nordefko Nordic the events cooperation which of course is it it's it doesn't contain any any obligations or guarantees but it does has helped in for example in in logistics and in in purchasing equipment etc so and now I don't know whether some of you noticed just about a week or two ago the the four Nordic countries which have air forces we do not we don't have national armed forces they decided to combine their air forces in an operational way so and this creates one of the biggest air forces in Europe so the I think that's where we see the impact and of course it's been economic as well Finland had considerable trade with with Russia it had had been reduced following the annexation of the Crimea but still it was there and this has diminished almost to nothing and so so I I think the impact is real sorry I you mentioned the peace institutions yes I that really I think that goes further back that that is an older idea and but but perhaps it becomes more relevant today that that's what I was thinking when I was reading it so you have that expertise already and it was also the practical issue you talked about in your year of presidency special attention will be paid to how peace is a prerequisite for human rights especially women's rights social stability and environmental protection so it's really interesting to see women's rights centre stage here you've talked about gender pay gap so it's very although it's high level it's also very practical the work that you're doing yes and and I think I can say with with sort of sounding too too formal that that gender equality has become an integral part of our foreign policy in Iceland in in the last few years and to be honest I not because of intent really it's just something which happened because of course as you know foreign policy usually always reflects domestic policy so as developments happened in Iceland they were transferred over to the foreign policy field we suddenly realized that we had a story to tell so to speak and experience to share and you mentioned the pay gap about five years ago we implemented studied implementing legislation on equal pay and this has already resulted in almost the elimination of paid differences in the public sector and we're making advances in the private sector as well that's really interesting to hear thank you very much thank you could invite mr ruskell please yes thank you very much convener and excellent to see you in front of us this morning ambassador I'd like to ask you about the the green transition priority that is that is within the Icelandic presidency here and in particular the you know the conversation about transition away from oil and gas I'm aware that the the Danish climate minister dan Jorgensen has established beyond all and gas alliance and I'm wondering to what extent that that is now a Nordic conversation around transition while recognizing that you know that the countries are in a very different starting point in terms of their access to energy resources and where the solutions may be I think you're you're quite right that all of all of the countries are in very different positions Finland relies to a large degree on nuclear and Sweden has has a mix norway also has a mix Denmark is primarily gas and wind we are primarily hydro and geothermal so so there's there are big differences between within the region but having said that I think all are are as one in in their ambition or in their goals of of of reaching net zero and but of course there are there are obviously for example norways in a rather special position being one of the biggest oil and gas producers in at least in Europe and and as a result of the war in in Ukraine will remain one of the biggest providers of gas for example to Europe for the foreseeable future but but on the other hand you have had advances in in other areas which indicate where we're headed for example at the same time as as Norway is in this position the the proportion of EV vehicles in in the country is is very high and the same goes for Iceland at least in terms of of family vehicles we have some work to do in Iceland for example regarding loris we don't have a train system in Iceland so we depend completely on loris in in a country which is where the population is is quite dispersed and also we of course rely on the sea so so generating power for for both fisheries vessels and merchant vessels is is an issue which we're looking at and there for example there are different solutions of course but i might mention green hydrogen as as a possible option there but in terms of a transition away from oil and gas is that something that because the ministers are able to to discuss or are there other difficulties there no it is discussed and and i think we all share the same ambition and the same goals but but i think the countries will have different ways of reaching them achieving them we have brought down the the the goal from 2050 down to 2040 of net zero and but having said that i think we are perhaps uniquely placed to reach it because of our peculiar circumstances we um all our electricity is is renewable it's 70% hydro and about 30% geothermal so fossil fuels are mostly useful transportation i mentioned land transportation a sea earlier but another sector which is important isle which we also have to find solution for is aviation we have this transatlantic traffic going through iceland and which is very important for us and iceland has become an important tourist destination so that's that's that's a challenge which we have to deal with somehow um the other thing that i noted was a focus on wind energy um and we had a a delegation from the Icelandic Energy and Communications Committee um to our committee net zero energy transport committee in parliament a very very good conversation um about wind energy planning and about the role of that technology is that is that a particular focus in terms of learning beyond the Nordic region about how wind energy is played out well we we're having the debate in iceland on wind is just starting now funnily enough because if there is something in abundance in iceland it's wind but uh but that's probably because hydro and geothermal have been so accessible and relatively economical um so but as i say the debate is starting we we we don't really have very many windmills already in place and it remains to be seen how many will be constructed and where we have the same debate in iceland as you have in the uk should it be onshore offshore for example and what should we do about protected areas how does this sort of work in terms of tourism where people are coming to iceland hoping for and expecting to see pristine nature and uh so i mean all of this will probably sound familiar to you as well um but when it comes to energy if we look at energy policy in strategic terms looking to the next few decades i can freely admit that we in iceland we still have a lot of homework to do we we're we're starting the debate uh and i don't know how long it will take but but but i think we have to try to achieve so maybe perhaps we will never get cross complete cross party consensus on it but i would say a relative consensus we need and uh i can mention for example that hydro is is controversial because of the land required for for reservoirs geothermal has been controversial because of pipelines and and sometimes there have been localised earthquakes relating to to drilling so so you have you know there are advantages and disadvantages and uh but yeah yeah thank you um i attended the arctic circle assembly in rhikovic last year on behalf of the parliament and there was a lot of conversations between governments and academia and business and NGOs within the west nordic region and we met you know representatives from parliaments who are part of the west nordic region but i'm wondering how that you know ministerial co-operation happens in west nordic region and is there room for others on the more on the periphery to be involved we had awking irons council at the assembly who are very keen to be in the discussion around you know some of the some of the topics that were that were talked about so yeah well we we in iceland we have always prioritised the west nordic co-operation these are our closest neighbors uh greenland to the west and the ferro islands to the east and uh similar conditions in many ways similar challenges uh and small societies and uh so it has been we have we have common commonalities but also due to these commonalities it's i think my feeling is that it has been easier for the ministers and the parliamentarians to to forge personal relationships because you know they they're talking about they're they're experiencing the same things and discussing the dealing with the same things um asked and of course there are limits to to what this particular surprise can do but but uh and and whether it can be expanded or extended i have to admit i i'm i'm not i just don't know what the mechanics might be i mean it might be in an informal way um but uh but uh it would of course be for them to to address that yes thank you and a final question i was i was reading the um the introduction um with and the comments of katraniakub's daughter here and she says that um we'll also greatly emphasise working together against the setback which has occurred in the struggle for the rights of lgbtq people uh i wonder if you could say a bit more about what what she means by that what the setback has been sorry who said this um katraniakub's daughter here in the in the forwards to the north well i think she's referring to the to the so the international context not it's not regional i think we we take pride all of the countries in in being in the in the sort of uh advance there and and having taken a very definite international stand where it's been possible on on these rights uh so it's the international context she's worried about i i won't name countries there but okay so there's been no no weakening of rights for lgbtq people across the Nordic region not in the Nordic region no definitely not okay thank you thank you mr golden thank you convener uh ambassador i'm interested in the the green Nordic region in particularly your thoughts around what areas could be explored to collaborate between the scottish parliament and the Nordic council or indeed the scottish government and the Nordic council of ministers well i think uh uh i think it would be it it will be important to share experience and technology particularly if there are technological advances uh both in terms of i mean over the over really in a broad way whether it's industry or or space heating transportation of course and the this is i mean scotland is geographically so close to the area somebody told me that if you're in the islands the closest railway station is in bergen norway which is indicative then um so i think i think it would be interesting if we could establish some channels of communication regular more than just sort of occasional consultations or or or occasional ministerial meetings but more regular channels of communication to to share experiences thanks that's very helpful i'm also interested in scotland's perception from the Nordic council of ministers with regard to tackling climate change as you'll be aware scotland has some of the most ambitious climate change targets in the world yet the delivery record is polar opposite to that unfortunately with failure to meet emissions targets in three the last four years in fact it was only a lockdown that allowed scotland to meet the emissions target so i'd just wondered your thoughts on the perception of scotland in terms of tackling climate change as far as i'm aware the i have not personally been aware of any particular perception of scotland in the Nordic countries i mean and of course i'm primarily familiar with the debate in island but sort of more superficially with the debate in the other Nordic countries on this question and i haven't i don't recall seeing any specific references to scotland in that regard i think to be honest i think everyone is so preoccupied with their own goals and and and how to reach them and and i'm not sure that the Nordic countries are prepared in this regard to to start finger pointing i think we have to we have to look to ourselves in this way and and try to do to what we have promised thank you ambassador back to you convener dr allen convener um the uh not everyone watching will perhaps be familiar with how the Nordic council of ministers or the Nordic council works so i wonder if you could say i'll just a little bit by way of how the Nordic council of ministers is embedded if you like in the political cultures of the country's concerned many of us would would look with envy at the diplomatic reach of a country like island but i wonder if you could say a bit about how the individual countries relate to the Nordic council of ministers and how how your pronouncements as an organisation relate to policy in the the different states concern well i think you know how it is sometimes with co-operation if it is successful it's taken for granted and and i think because for the co-operation goes so far back it i mean this was institutionalised in the early early 60s but it really goes back to the years following the end of the second world war and culturally it's it goes much further back um so it's something and and the level of integration i think sometimes it's not realised how how early and how deeply we went into integration for example we had a travel-free zone in the Nordic countries many many decades ago long before uh other i mean shengen is just a recent phenomenon but i mean this was back in the back in the 50s and uh and then education social services lots of integration there we have through the decades for example had a huge number of Icelandic students studying at universities in in the other Nordic countries without tuition fees for example so my feeling is that this as i mentioned earlier has sometimes been taken for granted people just assume that this is how it is and always has been but of course there's a lot of work behind it and not only in getting it started and establishing it but in maintaining it and keeping it running and um not perfect not at all as i mentioned we still have some believe it or not and even though you know three of the countries are in the european union and and island norway are participating in the single market there are still trade barriers in in some instances which which we have the objective of of getting rid of so not perfect but it's been working pretty well um the um but speaking as a civil servant i and having attended a lot of meetings in the in the Nordic context um i can say that for the for the governmental systems it's extremely important uh in many ways it's not only consultations and coordination but also picking up best practice for example and and also when it comes to more urgent issues well perhaps security related being able to pick up the phone or reach for the uh for for the uh mobile and and um and immediately know whom to contact on what so sort of the so the governments are very familiar with each other and i think that's an asset which is which is difficult to put put a price on um yeah in terms of the future i will resist the temptation to ask if Scotland can be a member but in terms of the future um you've said um that or that the vision for 2030 is that the Nordic region will become the most sustainable and integrated region in the world that is a huge ambition i know not very long to go either so can you tell me what it involves and how you'll do that in the next few years well i think we will it is a goal and and obviously when we set such goals we are serious about reaching them but um but um i i think i have to admit that we will probably need not not wholly reach this goal by 2030 and and perfectionist is still some some distance away but but i think it it is important to put such goals uh in in an effort to mobilize the governments and and and to to uh it's not a deadline it's it's a goal and but this this this helps in in focusing um so i think it is maybe it's the wrong word to use but it's a political objective and but but as i mentioned earlier we we are already very integrated uh and we are before this goal was set and in terms of of the green aspect we are as well if you look at the in in comparative terms internationally thank you thank you ambassador i wonder if i could ask a a question about something you mentioned earlier on about the free movement of people obviously um scotland finds itself outside the european union now which gives challenges for our young people in terms of opportunities for free movement for study abroad for um you know linking up with other youth organisations um and i know it was a real priority at the Nordic Council and i believe the young people it's up to you count it as up to age 28 is that right around about that age you mean the the mou we have with the UK yeah well it's really um since you mentioned the free movement of people has been so important i just wondered what what the council's priorities were for your youth in in the countries and what opportunities you see been opened up um by further integration and free movement yeah well because we had the passport union uh when the uh when norway but danmark was already in the EU but when nor when uh sweden and finland came in uh there was a great reluctance or i would just say opposition in all of the countries to doing away with what was called the passport union which did further back so that's how iceland and norway came into shengen uh so so we have this peculiar position of being in and out you know we are we're not member states but we do participate in the single market and and we're also members of shengen uh but i might mention that we are the only european country so far to conclude an mou with the united kingdom on youth mobility and this involves being able to the ages from 18 to 30 being able to come here for two years but you have to apply for a visa a particular type of visa to do that but the process of getting that visa is simpler than if you were just to come you know ask for a student visa or work visa for example so so we are hoping that that this will facilitate movement but but one thing which i might add which the numbers in in the uk again in comparative terms of icelandic citizens is relatively low i mean when when we were going through the tying up loose ends after brexit and uh we were encouraging our citizens to apply for for permanent settled status uh they were almost about 3000 which applied but if you look at danmark norway sweden in each country we have more than 10 000 citizens in each uh and uh i think the main reason for this is that iceland has never enjoyed uh a rebate on tuition fees at at for higher education uh iceland norway have never been we're never in the same position as the european union countries in that regard so the demand for higher education from iceland hasn't been the same as as as to other countries i would just echo my colleagues drallon's comments about how we would we would want to strengthen those opportunities going forward but obviously that's a matter for the ministers of our government and the uk government to to take those wishes forward can i thank you very much for your time to make just one further absolutely yes i just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that we have the chair also in the council of europe until may and uh our chairmanship will conclude by holding we were holding a summit meeting in Reykjavik mid may uh there are 46 member states of the council of europe and we expect to almost it's approaching now 40 heads of government uh primarily some heads of state as well so it will be quite a gathering uh and of course ukraine will be the main issue there and relevant to the council of europe uh the issue of accountability russian accountability will be high on the agenda so uh so my colleagues in Reykjavik have been preparing for this for a few months now and of course as you can understand it's quite a logistical undertaking well we wish you all the best for that conference and indeed the peace conference later in the year as well and we'll be watching with interest and i hope it's not the the last time you'll be able to to come and and update the the committee on the work but thank you very much very much this morning thank you very much we will now move into private session for our final agenda item