 Hello everyone and welcome to this session of working smart and which is called as work smarter learn optimize and accelerate by Mark lines and Scott and without further delay over to you Scott and Mark. Hi. Yeah. Thank you everybody for taking time at your busy days to come and hear us here speak. So what we'd like to do is share some great ideas from from dispensable and to introduce you to this idea that we can continually optimize we can continually improve and do better and become more competitive become more effective than what we do. So, for those of you who know organization we work for the project management Institute. And our focus is on helping people organizations to work smarter to helping you be successful in in your careers and to become change makers. It's not for profit. And that is wonderful. It enables us to focus on doing what we believe to truly help you, rather than to try to sell you things. So, this is a very, very good situation for us to be in so we really are here to share some great ideas and to to help you do better and be more effective. So, we've organized this talk into three sections or three, you know, three themes, I guess you could say so. The first one is to learn, you know how can we get better, you know how we get better skilled people better skill teams. As because as individuals as teams we really do want to supercharge our skills we want to learn more skills when you want to get better what we do. And then we want to optimize we want to go beyond the frameworks and go beyond the methods and do what the success organizations do. So, how do we actually design our own way of working, because we want to, you know, we want to be as effective as we can possibly be, and you don't do that by following somebody else's prescriptive techniques, the frameworks and methods are often a good start, but they're not your ending point. So, how do we accelerate how do we improve our value streams improve our flow of value to our customers are in the case of government agencies to the citizens that we serve. So how can we, how can we improve our flow. How can we really at the organization level be agile be lean be more effective. Interesting question is, is, you know, are we there yet agile has been around for over 20 years now. We've heard a lot of great stories a lot of, you know, a lot of great visions but how was it working after 20 years and you know many thousands of organizations adopting this stuff. Are we there. Any answer is no. Maybe we're on the path to getting there but we're not there yet. You know, one of the, one of the great mysteries of the agile community is, you know, why haven't we been as successful as we claimed we would be, you know, why don't we see every organization being, you know truly agile. The fact is, is that I think a lot of us are not on a good path at the present moment. So the agile methods and frameworks they're, they do help you know don't don't get us wrong so this is some stats from Dr. Don rifle who earned his PhD in answering the question how effective is agile and practice and he, he still has continued on with this study. And you know he's fine you know there's been good results, but nowhere near the magical numbers that we were promised and continue to be promised actually. So, why is, why is this happening. And it's because the, you know, the, the, the frameworks the methods are, are overly simplistic there. They solve a certain problem. But that's it. So the, you know, when we have, you know, methods described in 13 pages and, and frankly, you know, this is these guides are great ideas. The 13 page document is not going to get the job done. It's not going to cover all of your, all the challenges that you face and you need to look beyond what's, you know, what's in, you know, whatever it is you've been certified in. One of the challenges is you, you can't buy enterprise agility that you know everybody keeps looking for the silver bullet to slay the werewolf of their organizational challenges and everybody looks for an easy answer they want to have a, you know, just tell me what to do you know give me the eight magical steps that I need to follow to, you know, to transform my organization or you know tell me what I what I need to buy. The fact is it's hard work you've, you know, you've got to gain the skills and gain the improve your culture and you, you really do need to do the hard work of improvement and we'll walk you through what this is but there are no easy answers. There really aren't. So we need to learn to invest in our inner options we need to understand that we have options and we need to make choices. And we need to learn to optimize and to, to accelerate what we're doing and to, to always be improving to become what's called a learning organization that Peter Senge wrote about this, or Peter Senge wrote about this 25 30 years ago now. And we really do need to do this and the organizations that are hyper competitive that, you know, we all admire and we wish we were, you know, we were part of. They, they're learning organizations they improve constantly and this is why they're as good as they are. So, so what's this financial. So, this financial is a toolkit. It's not a framework. And that's, that's a huge difference. And this is hard to grasp sometimes but instead of telling you what to do. We tell you what to think about. And we give you options and we walk you through the trade offs of those options. So this enables you to make better decisions to choose the right way of working for you for the situation you face. This is a fit for purpose tailored way of working. And as your situation changes as you learn as you get better, you can improve your way of working, and you can, your, your process your, your way of working can and should improve over time, based on the new environment that you face. This is what a learning organization is all about. So we also support enterprise agility. I think one of the challenges now that many organizations face is how do you get agile out of the IT department how do you, how do you bring it truly across your entire organization. And that means you need to rethink a few things so even though most people will point to the manifesto for agile software development as you know here's our mindset here's what it means to be agile. And the reality is that even though the, the agile manifesto is a fantastic piece of work and truly admirable one of probably one of the most important things in the software engineering field. And the fact is it's 20 years old. It, it addressed the challenges of software development of 20 years ago. And frankly we've solved most of those problems. We, we learned we got better and our scope increased it's not just about software development really is about the organization. So a few years ago, we stepped back, and we asked the question well, given what we know now, given what we've learned in almost 20 years. How would we rewrite the manifesto how would we describe the mindset for enterprise agility. Let's start with this so we capture the mindset as a collection of principles so we believe in these principles. So we make promises both to ourselves and to the people that we work with here's how we're going to behave here's how we're going to work. And then in order to fulfill these promises, we follow a collection of guidelines. And the idea is that we want to be the idea here is that this is what we need to do to support true enterprise jelly to support agile, both within it, but also without with external to it. So you know I'm sure some of you are reading this now, you'll see that these are mostly lean ideas a lot of great people oriented ideas as well. And of course a few agile concepts sprinkled in, because one of the things about the toolkit is, it's not focused just on agile. We, it's a hybrid, and it what it does is it captures agile strategies and lean strategies, and even traditional strategies because there are some great ideas in the traditional community. And the fact is we want to do the best we can in the situation that we face. And sometimes that might be following a traditional strategy. We can choose to respect that, and we can choose to observe and respect the fact that ideas come, you know, strategies and ideas come from a wide range of sources, not just from the agile community. So, we really want to be pragmatic in our approach. So Dispant agile is the entire enterprise, all aspects, not just the it stuff not just the stuff that is easy to describe and to sell, but all of it, or all of the organization I should say not just it. So the toolkit. So these hexes are something we call process blades or process areas, only one of which is software development Dispant agile delivery. The rest is will not software development. Now you know there is Dispant DevOps so how do we address DevOps and enterprise class manner across the organization. But we also to we also extend that to support true value streams and we'll talk about value streams in a few minutes. And then of course the rest of the organization, you know, other supporting functions like finance and vendor management and, and other aspects and some people call this procurement, but there's more to it than that, or people management HR. So the idea is all aspects of organization can evolve can improve and get better, and we need to work together we need to collaborate with each other. So, what is a good practice or you know the best that I can do right now on my software team might contradict what the finance team is trying to do. So we need to work together to come to a solution of here's what we can do to collaborate more effectively together. Hopefully both of us learn and improve our own processes but also improve the way that we collaborate so we really need to look beyond our teams and beyond, you know, beyond what our whatever our focus is to, you know, work together effectively across the organization. And the fact is is that these different areas have different priorities, they have different mindsets so one of the concepts in the day to look at is we enable the, we support where we extend the process with philosophies, and with other ways of thinking that are specific to finance that are specific to product management that are specific to data management and so on that reflect the reality of those process blades of those process areas. And because we need to understand if we want to collaborate effectively with the HR folks, we need to understand where they're coming from we need to understand their unique mindset, and appreciate it, respect it. And that way that will enable us to understand them better and similar that I didn't need to understand what we're all about. Whatever team I'm on and, and so that way they can interact effectively with us so the toolkit is flexible it reflects reality, it's, it's not, you know what you know this mystical fanciful, fanciful idea of how things should work but it reflects the reality of how things actually work. And that I think is critical. So how do we learn, you know how do we go about super charging our skills. Mark, do you want to do you want to take this slide. Yeah, sure. Thanks Scott. So, as Scott mentioned, the, the, the, a lot of agile is described by pretty small bodies of knowledge and scrum is an example, its body of knowledge is the scrum guide and it's 13 pages. And that's, that's wonderful it's, it's, it's a jewel it's a nice kernel of process if you will but it simply isn't enough. And by design Ken and Jeff design scrum as such and said we're not going to try to tell you how to do estimating, or architecture or other aspects of solution delivery you're going to have to figure that out yourself. And that's nice and that's noble but a lot of people give up with absent that body of knowledge struggle to figure things out themselves. And what's Scott my and others have done is we've done the heavy lifting we've collected the practices from the hundred books and brought them together into one toolkit so that you don't have to try to figure things out yourself. And that's just what the choose your own book is all about it's a very significant body of knowledge, and where you might learn one type of estimating in a scrum course, using points or something like that we have nine different strategies, because we believe that choices are in context counts, but it's it's nice to be to be able to have a reference to help you to be successful, rather than, you know, failing fast over and over again until you find the figure things out. So, we believe that an investment in learning all these strategies and at last count it was over 1600 techniques in our toolkit, but by learning by learning these strategies you're going to be more effective. Yeah, definitely thanks. So, yes, and so choice is good so when you go to the market you've got choices and, and I would argue that the reason why events like actual India exist is to share ideas to tell you to teach you that you have options that there are other ways of working that you know go beyond what you might have in a certification workshop or you know whatever training you received, if any. So, and you need to understand what these choices are so just like when you go to make your dinner tonight, you, you know you put together the ingredients to make your meal. You need to understand that you know what these, you know what these things taste like how to work with them how they fit together right so you know I would hope that you wouldn't get vinegar and vanilla ice cream and try to make dinner out of that. Maybe you can, but gut feel tells me it's not going to work out well. So, you really need to have some knowledge you really need to understand and you need to understand you know what what mood am I in tonight you know what what do I feel like eating this evening. So the day to look at how it gives you these options and it puts these options into, in a context for you. And we'll see some examples of this in a few minutes but you have choices and how do you choose, then the issue becomes, how do you choose the right strategy for you in a situation that you face, because there's no such thing as a best practice it's this wonderful marketing rhetoric, but the reality is is that any given practice, any given strategy works well in some situations, and is a bad idea and others. So it's a best practice for you in your context, perhaps, but just because something works for you right now doesn't mean it's a good idea for the team down the hall from you, or it doesn't mean it's a good idea for you six months from now, when you face a situation, you've got to use the right strategy for the situation you face. Another thing that we do in dispensable is we recognize the fact that different different teams will work in different ways and that means you need different life cycles so, you know for those of you have been around for a while you you probably remember the, the strong versus con bond debate, and this was a raging fight, you know, 10 years ago and still still sort of occurs there's like, you know the occasional brush fire, you know, which which way to go, and the reality is is they're both great. And you want to use the right strategy in the right situation. So, we support multiple life cycles we support a scrum based agile project life cycle, because projects still exist. We support an agile scrum based continue, but their service team or long standing team life cycles. And I'm sure in your in your organizations you've got teams that are doing all of these, you know, you've got teams that are doing all these sorts of things. We also support an exploratory hypothesis driven life cycle based on lean startup for, you know, running experiments in the marketplace and you know creating MVP seeing what your customers want. And of course a program team of teams type of life cycle, you know very similar to less in many ways. So, the idea is, depending on your situation your team will pick a life cycle to start with. And it's like there it's like it's like the glue that holds the practices together or like recipes that hold the ingredients together to help you make a great meal. But they're only starting point like for those of you who do the cooking at home you know that even if you have a recipe for a certain dish, you probably fiddle with it you probably change it for, you know, based on your experience based on the tastes of, you know, the desires of what your family likes to eat. Scott, one thing I want to point out too is that you may have heard there's a huge movement, certainly in the IT area from project to product. In fact there's a very good book about this by Mick Kirsten. And certainly in, in, in many situations, organizing long term teams aligned to business areas or value streams, similar to what a product company would use is a good way to go. But, you know, Scott and I have said for many years that one flavor doesn't fit everybody. So the fact when you hear the you know on the stage that projects are dead, and everything is products. That's just simply not true. It is rhetoric. I was just actually speaking with a consulting firm yesterday that deals in projects they get brought in by customer to deliver something and then leave. And that is not a product. And so I just encourage you all to keep an open mind. And this is one of the great things about discipline agile is we support all kinds of approaches. So if you want to use a project approach that's fine. If you want to use a more long term product approach that is also fine. So that's one thing you'll see about the DA toolkit is we're very very flexible in that regard. Definitely. And what's also interesting is that your organization probably has this under way already or something very, very close to this. But you still need to govern it you still need to lead these teams and, you know, from this from the point of view of an executive now. So discipline agile includes explicit governance strategies and governance is not a swear word in in dispensable. You are being governed and you deserve to be governed well. So we include explicit strategies for governance to provide the guidance that your executives need to for them to do their jobs effectively too. So this is a very healthy and important aspect of the DA toolkit. So discipline agile provides you the choices this is this diagram is called a goal process goal diagram. And what it does is summarizes the choices basically a checklist me and gets down to it. So the way to read this diagram is so this is for the explore scope process goal there's, I believe 20 if I'm account is right there's 26 process goals describing team agility. And one of which is you know how do we explore scope how do we understand the requirements that we're supposed to be addressing. And when you explore requirements when you explore the scope, there are several decision points that you need to make there are several issues that you need to consider so how are we going to explore the purpose of what we're producing how we can explore usage we're going to understand how our potential customers or end users are going to work with our product or our service whatever is that we're producing. How are we going to explore the data stuff how are we going to explore the business process, and so on. The, so instead of telling you what to do, we give you choices. So, in discipline agile. And so to the right of the decision points are optionless. So we've identified every possible option on the planet, but we are saying we've done, you know, we've identified a good, a good set of choices, enough to let you know you do have choices and we're, and we're costly. You know we've all the toolkit itself and constantly adding adding and adding new things and updating things. And there's two types of lists here. There's an ordered list, the list with an arrow beside them. And what that indicates is that the strategies towards the top of the list are generally more effective than the strategies towards the bottom list. So in that way it's sort of a maturity model. But there's also unordered lists, you know without arrows, and what we're saying there is that, even though we can tell you the trade offs associated with these techniques, we can't really say you know this is generally better than this. And all we can do is say yeah here's the advantage and disadvantage of this one here's the advantage disadvantage of that one. You choose whatever is right for you for your situation. Now, usually at this point I show these sorts of diagrams to people and they tend to get overwhelmed and say oh my God, what do you mean I've got all these choices to me. Yeah, this is this is reality and you effectively are making them or they're being made for you. It's just like when you go to the to the market for shopping for food. There's thousands of ingredients potential ingredients there and you're, you're choosing the subset that's right for you for you know the the coming few days or you know we're so for your family. Same sort of thing on the process of things. Now, compare this to methods or to frameworks, and what they do is they effectively redact your choices they say well these techniques are the, you know, you know, these are the best practices for you in our business and you know you do this and otherwise you're you know you're doing something else not this and you're you're a bad person for not following our advice and industry religious battles in the community about these sorts of things. But the reality is, you know, we do have choices and like I said earlier, the reason why conferences like this exist is to, you know, to share other techniques that you might not be aware of with you. This is reality. So let's embrace reality. Let's start we, you know, let's we just let's reject the redaction that we're being given. Now to be fair, you do, you know, if you're brand new to cooking, you don't want to have to go to the market and figure things out on your own you do sort of want to have a recipe and you do want to have a starting point. So fair enough and the methods and frameworks are great starting points, but they're not your ending point you got to get to the, you got to get to the point where you're you're making choices for yourself. So just add to that. I mean, you're right when I when I tell people they're 1600 practices in the toolkit they go oh I can't possibly deal with that. I'm here to tell you it's not that hard. It's a reference. It's not you don't do all the stuff. But when you're looking for help to supplement these little things that Scott has shown here. A lot of people are blissfully ignorant about supplemental techniques and that can help them to be more effective. And you know Scott and I have been out there, helping clients for literally decades, and teaching these different techniques to people so we kind of have this up in our head. We have that luxury. A lot of people just simply don't know what their options are is goes back to the pantry of ingredients and marketplace of ingredients. So our fundamental value proposition is what what makes a good consultant, a good consultant is somebody who knows what the options are and knows which ones work in different kinds of situations. Using the DA toolkit, you can really up your game, because you'll learn things. I promise you, you've never even heard of before, that it's going to make you more effective with your organization and if you're consultant with your clients. So that's what we're trying to say is invest in learning what your options are, and you're going to be you and your team and your organization are going to be far more effective. Yes, definitely. Thank you. So yeah, so the gold diagrams are your pantry and the life cycles are your starter recipes so think of it like that. So how do we optimize how do we get better. So, instead of the so what one thing I would suggest is that, when we look at the apex level competitors, why don't we look at the organizations that we truly admire. Well, you know that's the Amazon's the Alibaba's the, you know, the Spotify's the world what are they doing. You know, why did they get you know why are they as good as they are. You know, are they copying somebody else's approach adopting these frameworks, or are they evolving their own ways of working. Well, we know they're evolving their own ways of working that they would laugh at you if you suggest to adopt these methods or frameworks. So they enjoy improvement curves that look like this they just continuously improve over time. There's nothing special with Amazon or Alibaba other than the fact they choose to improve constantly. They've been doing it for so long that's why they're so much better than the rest of us is they've just been improving and they've gotten ahead. So what do they do. So, they, they take an approach called continuous improvement. So, they identify the problems they actually get rid of that. They realize they got initiative they realize they got something to improve so they identify potential ways to improvement to improve. They try them out and practice the experiment. They assess the effectiveness of that technique and they adopt what works and they abandon what doesn't work. And if they're polite they share their learnings with others. And then they rinse and repeat they continue on. Well, they run an experiment they fail, but at least they fell fast right so there's all this rhetoric around failing fast and certainly failing fast is better than failing slowly. So they try again, and they fail again, and they try again, and they fail again. They try again, and eventually they succeed. They have a successful experiment. So then they adopt that, and then they continue on. And it's okay that things work. Now, this is okay for them when you're on the leading edge and you truly are experimenting with with new strategies that nobody else has ever dealt with before. Then, yeah, you're going to have a lot of failures. But if you're not a leading edge firm if you are behind and, you know, fair enough, maybe you don't need to have as many failures. Maybe we could be smarter about this a lot smarter about this. So maybe failing fast, isn't the brightest thing to be doing. So, how can we improve. Well, one challenge is that some of our experiments fail and you're only human, some experiments are going to fail and, you know, if you feel fast that's a good thing far better than selling slowly. But you know what, maybe we could succeed earlier. But the failure is still a failure and there's a lot of rhetoric or else not really a failure you've learned something. Okay fine you've learned something but might have been maybe there was a better way to learn that other than running experiment failing. Oh well that's not something that consultants want to talk about. Right. But the reality is is that maybe we didn't need to have that failure to begin with, could have been a little bit smarter about this. So, the real challenge is that the second, the second procedure. So if we get better at that if we get better identifying potential techniques to experiment with. If we can get better at identifying what will work for us in our situation, then we'll have more successes will have fewer failures, and we'll improve faster, and it'll be cheaper. So how do you do that well if you have access to experience coach, then, you know as mark was saying earlier they can, they can help you out they can provide good guidance. But do you have access to such coaches, can you afford them can you identify them. Can you keep them. Do they actually have experience in the issues that you're about to face. I don't know. So the key, which works phenomenally well with coaching. So combine the two is if you have access to a process knowledge base such as the data toolkit, you can learn how to make better decisions yourself you with a little bit of humility. If you understand that you more than likely face that your teams sit face situations today that are in fact very similar situations that have been faced by other teams, often hundreds or thousands before you, and they've addressed these challenges. If you were to recognize that, then maybe you could choose to leverage the learnings of those other teams, and have a jump on actually fixing the problem because because you know oh well yeah, that strategy is probably on work for us. Let's experiment with that one. This is the, this is the entire idea. This is something we call guided continuous improvement. So with, with this so we've seen that adopting a framework enjoys a productivity curve that looks like this. You know we see a we see that that you know we have a 712% productivity increase by adopting the methods and frameworks which is great, but you peak out with those you, you hit the limits of the frameworks as he very acquires and like to say you end up in method gel with continuous improvement. So we have a lot of conversations enjoy a improvement curve looks like this with guided and continuous improvement. They enjoy the same basic curve, but it's steeper, because there's fewer failures. They're improving more, you know they have more successes they improve faster. And this is what dispensable can help you to do. So our philosophy is to start where you are. So if you're currently doing safe, great, we can help you improve on safe. You're currently doing scrum great we can help you improve on scrum. You're currently doing, you know, a traditional approach you're filling you to agile great, we can help you with that. Because discipline agile is a hybrid. It's all about running coherent experiments that are most likely to succeed, and to the to improve your processes over time. So do the best in the situation that you face and I know you're doing that you're professionals you're doing that naturally, but always strive to get better always be experimenting always be trying to get better. And I hope you choose to do to adopt it. So how I'm going to very quickly go through a couple of examples and then we're going to go to questions. So how do we do that. Well, you know, earlier we saw explore scope. So I said, you know, we've we've organized team agility into a collection of process goals, explore scope being one of them. So how do you use the toolkit. Well, say we have a an issue around how we're interacting with our state that our customers and our potential customers trying to understand what they want. If we have reasonable business analysis experience in the team, then the school diagrams probably enough of a reminder to say oh yeah I remember this technique. We should try we should experiment with this technique because you know I did this on a project a few years ago and I just forgot about it but now I look at the diagram now remember let's experiment with that. But let's say we don't have that level of knowledge on our team because you know we're not we're only human we're not perfect right. So we realize you know what we've got a problem with the way the way that we're exploring usage. So let's dive down let's do a little bit of reading so we dive into the toolkit. Earlier we're showing pictures of the printed book. We have this material online as well free of charge at PMI.org in a tool called the DA browser. So we use the browser to navigate the diagram we dive down into some more details. So each of the techniques. So you don't need to memorize 1600 techniques I haven't. I couldn't have my brains not that big. I just couldn't do it, but I can read. So, what happens is we capture these we describe each of these techniques the couple paragraphs enough to let you know what they're all about. So in this context we describe the trade offs. What's a good what's good about this technique what's not so good about this technique to give you a feel for when you might want to use it. And there's also references so you know we we link to articles and blogs and books and you know videos and other things to see you can dive down to the next level detail I'm not showing that here but what we do. So in a little bit of reading, we can say hey you know what personas. This is probably the technique that we should experiment with right now because it sounds like it's going to solve our problem, and it sounds like we can pull this off. So let's experiment with this and see what works for us in our situation. So we can make better process improvement decisions. So how do we accelerate this. Well, it's not just about teams and obviously improving your teams is a very important thing, but what's more interesting is improving across teams in getting agile out of the it ghetto, and to really help make your businesses become more more agile, become agile enterprises. So in this scenario, the PMO comes along they says we need to release new new offerings to market faster, you know let's, you know, start making more money. The product management folks they say yeah that's a great idea. We could release minimum business increments these small chunks of value on a regular basis rather than big releases. That way we can get more stuff in the hands of our customers faster and adjust accordingly all that good sort of stuff. Well the PMO comes back and says yeah you know what but we fund projects we don't fund new features. That's no good. But the release management folks they say you know we'd love to support a quicker release cadence releasing small things in a production is a far less risky for us, then releasing big chunks of stuff we'd love to do that. But sadly the data people it takes them three months to do anything. The data folks they come back and they say well data is different. We need to think through everything upfront agile doesn't apply to us because we're special. And that by the way folks is a complete and utter nonsense. But anyways, continuing on here. And of course the PMO comes back and they say well yes but we need to release new new offerings to market faster so we're here we have this circular finger pointing thing going on. So how do we improve across this because the challenges is we've got multiple teams here. They need to work together and the reality is it wouldn't be just for teams. Everybody in this value stream would need to improve but you know let's keep it at four, because that's what I can fit on a slide. So anyways, what we need to do is negotiate potential changes across these four areas that fit together that we believe will potentially work in our situation for us. So we need to do we need to agree on how we're going to collaborate together more effectively in order to pull off this new idea of releasing to the marketplace more, more quickly, more often. So that's the, that's the basic idea here so we can use the toolkit to work across these disparate teams and notice how you know none of these are really about software development it's really about other aspects of the organization, working together more effectively. So in these approaches, we need to have this better understanding of the entire organization, and where, you know how it all fits together and office or stuff. And this is the fundamental challenge that you face. You need to look at the bigger picture and sometimes the bigger picture is not pretty. You know I picked on the data management folks there a while ago, but the reality is is they face some unique challenges and they can in fact be far more agile than they usually are. They need help doing it and yet still, they need to fulfill their, their task of protecting the organization's data and making it available and all that sort of stuff so it's hard. And you know the simplistic 13 page guides, don't get the job done. So to wrap up here, this financial helps you to prove your effective effectiveness regardless of what you're doing. It's not safe versus DA or less versus DA or scrum versus DA but really is safe. Plus DA less plus DA scrum plus DA, and so on. You know, whatever it is that you're doing today. How do you improve and get better from there. And that's perfectly fine. That's what you need to do. So successful organizations take responsibility for evolving their own agility. So you don't want to copy Spotify you don't want to adopt the Spotify method and don't get me wrong it's great method, but you want to become a Spotify Spotify is a learning organization they constantly improve, they constantly get better. That's what you want to do. So, you can learn more about dispensable. You know so we do, you know, like I said we're not for profit. And we do offer training and certification in dispensable because you do need to learn to. You want to learn the, you know how to navigate the toolkit. So we have four levels of certification, the DA scrum master and it's about far more than being a scrum master. And really it's this is misnamed but you know this is where you learn the fundamentals of the toolkit and how to navigate and how to improve be involved at team level improvement and individual level improvement. The senior scrum master cert helps you to lead improvement at the team level. The DA coach helps you to lead improvement across disparate teams. So how do we get a handful of teams working together more effectively. The consultant really does teach you how do we improve across value streams across the organization and deal with these multi team issues and to improve the overall flow of the way that we work. So, I'll add Scott if you don't mind going back to the previous slide is that this really is a career progression that you don't see in other training programs. We constantly run into CSMs or SPCs that have been doing the same thing for 10 years, and they're still getting paid what they were 10 years ago, they're not getting recognized for their additional experience and knowledge. And what we did when we designed the certification program is really designed a progressive program so that you build on your expertise and people can quickly see that you're not one of the millions from masters you actually have significant knowledge beyond what you learn in a typical course. And the other thing I would tell you is that like it when you look at the DA coach that's an enterprise coach that's not a team coach that you learn the skills to go into marketing to go into finance to go into PMOs and help them to become agile as well, because it's those supporting areas sometimes that aren't agile that can become impediments. So let's turn turn those impediments into an enablers of your agility, and you can do that through good coaching, and those are the things you learn about in the DA coach program. Okay Scott. Thank you. So I think we've got time for one or two questions I hope so. I'm looking at the q amp a right now, and I see, I did answer one already says told people how to access the browser. What a very interesting comment here is PMI is being perceived has been perceived more of a traditional project management than agile with introduction promotion of certifications of the DA toolkit has this been changing. That is a brilliant question. One of the slides that that I sometimes put into my presentations is talks about take another look at PMI. It's not what you think it is PMI has long 50 year old company not for profit, the expert in traditional project management. And arguably the reason that the agile manifesto was written was a rebellion against traditional project management, but I would encourage you to take a look at the new PMI. And there's a reason that Scott and I discipline agile join PMI, this worldwide not for profit company is to, you know, take a position in the agile space. We're well recognized by Gartner, as the leading agile toolkit, the only one really that is agnostic, pragmatic, recognize recognizes the context counts and choices good. It's to have a collection of practices that you can use to design your ways of working. You know, everybody talks about, we have to adopt new ways of working, you can't attend a talk these days without people talking about new ways of working. You know what, what though they don't tell you what those ways of working are. We laid out for you and say, in this situation, if you're building a brand new app, then maybe you do this. If you're implementing SAP well maybe you do this. If you're building software for medical devices. Maybe you need to do this and this as well. Nobody else really gives you those choices. So I think our comment is, it's not the PMI you think it is. We, we, we are now a leader in the agile space. So don't get focused on the project management aspect of it. If you want to do traditional projects we've got that and get your PMP. If you want to take a agile first approach, then take a look at the DA toolkit. Go ahead Scott. And we're far more comprehensive too. So, so for example, you know earlier I was talking with data management and you saw the, you know, the gold diagram for data management and there's far more to the, the, you know, the process play than just the, the gold diagram. But where else are you going to go for advice about data management. None of the frameworks want to talk about data. That's an ugly topic. They don't just they just don't talk about it. They wave their hands. Oh yeah, data, whatever. But they give you no advice. There's no help there. So, and same thing for procurement for you know for their management stuff, and we're all struggling with these issues right so, and we really do need to address you how do these other groups, you know, the non software development groups in your organization, how do they work and how do they how can they get better how can they improve. Because many of you work in organizations where you have the finance folks they're still following traditional ways of finance are doing annual budgets. Can you imagine. It's crazy, but they're still doing it. They need help they can improve they can get better. But, you know, but we can't just, you know, here read this 13 page document that's not going to work, you know, take this today. You know, certification course it teaches you how to how to manage meetings that's not going to help. You know, we need to do better. We do. And what we find folks is that when people see one of the problems is exposure as you Scott and I are a little company from Canada, and the way our marketing was speaking at conferences like this. No marketing organization writing books and speaking at conferences and doing social media that was all we had because we're a tiny little company. If you're a part of a worldwide company with 300 chapters around the world, people are getting exposed to the toolkit and they're like where have you been. I've needed this for so long. So I would encourage you all to get involved learn about it because it's like the best kept secret what's not to like about agnosticism, not rather than dog with dogmatic approaches and choice and flexibility and learning options so that you can optimize your ways of working, not what you know some methodologist wrote about in some book. That's a great starting point, but you as Scott said you need to take responsibility for optimizing your way of working. And if you don't know what your options are you're going to struggle, you'll get there over time. Meanwhile, your competitors are eating your lunch. So, we'd encourage you to take a look at the toolkit. It really is a nice body of knowledge. Okay, great. Yeah, I think we are over time. Thank you, everyone and have a good day ahead everyone. Thank you. Bye bye.