 Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. Today's topic is GOP ranks full of Christian Nationalists. Back in 2016, Hillary Clinton spoke up at a fundraising event and she spoke up and she spoke out that the followers of Donald Trump, specifically the MAGA followers, were a basket of deplorables. And what she meant by basket deplorables was she identified racists, the sexists, homophobic, the xenophobic, and the salamaphobic. The Roarer, a protest that followed her words was deafening. Hillary Clinton retreated, she apologized. Since that time, since 2016, we've seen all sorts of groups come out of the GOP. We've seen the MAGA wing support neo-Nazis, the white supremacists to include proud boys, the oathkeepers, and of recent, we've been watching a lot of what I would call Putin cheerleaders, those that wanna see Russia succeed and not NATO or Ukraine. Remember, Donald Trump in one of the debates said about the proud boys, stand back and stand ready. That was just before January 6th took place. So fast forward to this weekend at CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Committee forum, where a gentleman by the name of Jack Prosbyek sat on a discussion panel with Steve Bannon of all people. Again, this is where all the Republicans like to go in Florida and thump their chest and display their positions on how the world should run, how the country should run. And what did Jack Prosbyek say? He said the following, we're here to overthrow democracy. We didn't get it all the way there on January 6th, but we'll endeavor to get rid of it. Hillary Clinton apologized. She shouldn't have, basket of deplorables. And with that, my co-host, Jay Fidels with me today to discuss the emerging strength and influence of Christian Nationalists in the Republican Party. Good morning, Jay. Good morning, Jim. You know, Jay, let's talk about some of the positions that the Christian Nationalists are hoping to accomplish, not just 2024, but for the future of this country. And we can kind of go down the list and I'll throw some of these at you to get your response. They would like to stop divorce and make it back in the old days where no fault is gone and now you have to find cause for a divorce. They want to stop contraceptives. They want to stop same-sex marriage. And presumably, they're all probably okay with discrimination of housing and job employment. They probably don't have a problem with that. They want to stop any kind of sex transitioning activities that are occurring in this country. They would definitely want to ban abortions. And in my opinion, these people want to go back to the days of John Withrup and his clan of Puritans that really messed up for America. The Puritan lifestyle really made things tough on the Native Americans. Your thoughts about other things that these Christian Nationalists are up to? They want to break down the wall between church and state. I've seen commentary by Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene saying, are you ready for this? Are you sitting down? And I'm tired of the establishment clause. I'm tired of this wall we have between church and state. I think church ought to be in charge and state ought to respond to church. What do you mean tired? You're tired of the Constitution. You're tired of the First Amendment. You're tired of the establishment clause. That doesn't change it. What they are doing is they're ignoring it. And thus, as you said, they're ignoring democracy. They want to trash democracy. They want to trash the Constitution. And this comes from a comment from Trump. I have to reconsider the Constitution. Some of the Constitution I'm not going to follow. So what we have here is an anti-democracy movement and it's largely about the First Amendment. You know, I'm gonna throw out a quote from Trump because to your point, Donald Trump is supporting these Christian nationalists. He doesn't care about them. He doesn't believe in what they believe in. But they're a sizable block of his voting base. And he said this. This was in his Nashville rally that he had. He said, remember, every communist regime throughout history has tried to stamp out churches just like every fascist regime has tried to co-op them and control them. Well, you know, lately he's been accusing Joe Biden of being both communist and a fascist. So he's talking about the current administration, the Biden administration, as now being anti-Christian, anti-church, and really trying to stir up all the Christian nationalists to say, see, this is the dark government we have to live with and this is Joe Biden and his administration is trying to stamp out your right to peacefully assemble and worship. It's misinformation, disinformation, manipulation. You know, the notion of evangelicals has existed in the American public conversation or maybe private conversation at some points, all the way through from before the revolution. And it comes from the fact that a lot of religious people were involved in policy and the formation of the government but they decided at the time of the Constitution to separate those things with good cause because they saw what had happened in Europe and they were concerned about those who would make this a theocracy. So it was sidetracked, but that didn't end it. And the notion of evangelical order and theocracy has existed even from then until now. And I, you know, without going into the details of it, you know, it played a role in the post civil war experience with the blacks. It played a role in many elements of American history but it never got to be a serious maneuver to achieve a theocracy until now. And really, you know, I wonder if we could examine a why until now, it hasn't been, but it is now. In the 30s, there were people who wanted to side with Hitler. They wanted to have fascism in the country and there were factors that stopped them. One of the factors was FDR. One of the factors where there were immigrants who really cared and were very patriotic. And the biggest factor of all was World War II where we saw with our own eyes that fascism was a murderous view of the world. And so we didn't have fascism. And those factors are worth looking at now because there's a movement to make this a theocracy, to have those who pretend to be religious delits govern the government. And they'll say it in so many words. Audrey Taylor Greene and Lauren Barber, they say it in so many words. They wanna throw out the division between church and state. That's really horrendous because, you know, everybody has a different view of God and church and state. And if you open the door on that, what happens is the ones with the view that serves their interests will, you know, dispossess the ones who don't have that religious view. So it's a question of interpretation. And there are virtually hundreds of religions in this country. So which one governs white, Christian nationalism? Is that what governs? What is that? And who runs it and who believes in it? And I told you before the show, I think this is reduced to simplest and most basic terms by saying the system is broken and we can, you know, discuss how and why. And it creates a vacuum of power. That's what's happened. Sort of like the depression in the 30s that led to the vacuum of power that allowed the Nazis in the door. And now we have a vacuum of power that allows the theocrats in the door. And theocracy is not about God. It's not even about religion. It's about power. And Trump, you know, who is a smart guy and is kind of fundamental primitive, you know, intuitive level understands this. He understands there's the vacuum. He wants to fill the vacuum. He knows that people need to fill the vacuum with power. So a good device is to call it theocracy and thus use theocracy as a way to get into power. And that's the game he's playing. He is actually allowing this. He is inviting this. It could exist without him, but with him it moves much quicker. Well, let's look at the influence of Christian nationalism that it's already had in the influence of our government. Look at the composition of the Supreme Court. Many of those justices are very conservative Catholics. And I hate to say, but it appears that they make decisions based on their Catholicism or their belief thereof. Let's look at the most recent one, and that's our speaker of the house, Mike Johnson. Makes no apology for his desire to blur the line between church and state. The appointment of Mike Johnson, how do you think that's going to rear its ugly head as far as the Christian nationalist aspect towards future legislation or the lack thereof? Things that won't get on the floor. History will not be kind to him. You're right, he is the personification of God over government, God over the people. And by the way, it's his God. It's not your God or my God or God for most of us. It's his God, it's power. And Trump runs him. That's the other part, it seems clear that Trump runs him, Trump takes away his power, and fills Johnson's power with his Trump's instructions. So Trump is using this whole system, this whole movement, this whole theocracy thing for his own ends. He's controlling Johnson. History will not look kindly at Johnson. Johnson is in there against Ukraine because Trump wants him to be in there against Ukraine. And he can come up with religious reasons for that, but that's bunk. It's just because Trump controls him and in fact Putin controls Trump. So that's why he doesn't want to give any money to Ukraine. And it's that simple. It's almost like a border is an irrelevant manipulation. It's Ukraine that they're after. So I think that Johnson is a terrible choice for the country. And ultimately, as you suggest, for the GOP, they'll never recover from what they're doing now. They'll never have credibility again. I only hope that Trump loses the election so we can look at this rationally. Well, I don't think it ends with Donald Trump losing the election. I think there's enough of mega, if you will, the mega concept or theology that's embedded in the GOP and whether Donald Trump is elected or not now, I think is almost moot. I think the movement continues on after Donald Trump is hopefully not elected. Let's go back in history and I hate to point fingers, but I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna point some fingers. Ronald Reagan, much beloved by the Republican Party, by many Americans, much loved, but he alone basically allowed Jerry Faldwell and the moral majority into the Republican Party. Not like ever before had any religious group, particularly evangelical, I had the nose under the tent of a Republican Party or the Democrat Party. So that's what- Faldwell was remarkable in the sense that he's the first leader of the evangelicals to care about and insinuate himself into politics. Up to that point, they had been interested in religion, religious education with their own view of the world, but not politics. And you'll forget donations over the TV. Lots of donations over TV. For them, for the guys in the mega church, not for politics. Ronald Reagan, you are absolutely right. Ronald Reagan invited Faldwell into the political arena and it changed evangelicalism right there. And since that time, evangelicals have been involved in politics and power and less so in religion. Yeah, well, let's see how it's, basically he's leaving this thumbprint on some pre-court decisions. We're reminded that Washington State, we had a football coach who insisted to conduct prayer on the field before game time. Didn't matter if you're a Christian, you were a part of the team, you were gonna take a knee and you were gonna bow your head in prayer. Now that decision to allow the coach to continue to do that was upheld by the Supreme Court. Now, if I'm a Muslim, if I'm Jewish, if I'm Hindi or I'm Buddhist, I'm not liking the fact that I'm forced to bow my head and conduct myself in a Christian prayer, but there it is, one of the Supreme Court decisions that said no problem. Let's look at public funding, our taxpayer dollars for funding for religious private schools. Again, a Supreme Court decision. How far does this go? What are areas, what other areas may we see either the Supreme Court or state legislatures to give a green light to the blurring of line of a church versus state? Well, you know, it was clear what direction we were moving at the inauguration of Bush, W. Bush. He said, let's do faith-based government. My administration will be faith-based. I said, what? What about the separation of church and state? What are you saying? But it made it visible. And clearly it's increased since then. But you can see that something very troubling happened at that point. Up to that point, the Department of Justice had been involved in trying to make sure that government was not faith-based. All of a sudden in his administration, the Department of Justice changed to protect churches, to protect them so they could do what they wanted. It was a whole shift, a major shift, in the paradigm and the policy of this country. And it happened with George W. Bush. So if I'd like to just raise one point that I find very troubling. First of all, we know that a good percentage of the GOP magas are evangelicals. I don't remember the exact number, but it's well over 30% of them are committed to evangelical government, the theocracy. That's a poll taken recently by a Pew organization found that. And by the way, some Democrats believe that too. But not nearly as many as the magas. Okay, now we have this very strange kind of inconsistency that I cannot reconcile. And that is that there's something called a Christian Zionist within the evangelical group. They believe that because the Jewish people and Israel is mentioned in the Bible, in the first Testament, that they have a special connection with the Jewish people and Israel. Ergo, when you see Trump moving the embassy of the United States from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, when you see him supporting Israel, and especially Netanyahu, who is a kindred spirit, and a kind of an autocratic personality with Trump, he's, he, Trump is doing it for a reason. He's doing it to stroke these evangelical Christian scientists. And it's good as far as Israel is concerned that they have this group in the United States that supports them. And of course, we have the woke liberals who don't support them. And the whole thing is very confused. And I hate to be on the side, or sympathetic to the side of the evangelicals, but there you have it. They are completely faithful not to use that term. No, use that term. Use that term because it's important. Yeah, well, it's some kind of a theocratic connection they have and Trump is stroking that. Trump is taking advantage of playing to that. So it's, I don't think it's really sincere, but a number of the, for example, the YouTube videos that come up of the news reports, even Fox News seems to favor Israel in this war with Hamas. You know, I don't welcome them to do that, but they are doing that. And I think if we look at the evangelical movement, we have to wrap around that phenomenon. Because one time they wanna, on the one hand, they wanna destroy democracy and the line between church and state. On the other hand, and Trump is, you know, stoking them on this, they wanna support Israel for biblical reasons. Well, if you're an evangelical, you probably believe in the book of revelations. And in the book of revelations, guess who gets slaughtered first? The Jews in the Middle East when the second coming is about ready to happen. So yeah, they're more than happy to support Jews because they know, according to a book of revelations, if the Jews don't convert, then they receive the forces of evil and they're all wiped out. It's not easy to support that when you are in the third or fourth rank of things to come. So, you know, I wouldn't want that support if I was Jewish. I don't need that kind of support. Thank you so much. But also look. Thanks, but no thanks. Thanks, but no thanks. You're right. And you know, there's very perverse why they support the Jews is because they think the Jews are gonna be massacred. There it is. It's a very strange, twisted kind of mindset over it. Yeah, well, you said a perfect thanks, but no thanks. I don't need that kind of support. But let's look at something else that I've been saying and you and I, we've gone around the mulberry bush on this, is that we accuse the mega of being in an information bubble of facts from Fox News or Newsmax, whatever they get their news source from. But there's something greater to that. And that is when your base is a bunch of faithful you use the word faithful evangelicals. Remember the evangelicals, they don't need proof to support their faith. They just need faith. So they need belief. They don't need facts. They don't need proof. They don't need evidence. They need faith. And when you have a political group that's based on the faithful, then who is their Messiah? Donald Trump, he doesn't give them facts. They don't need his facts. They just need to believe and they do. And that is why Donald Trump has unloyal, I mean, excuse me, loyal followings to the nth degree because they are the faithful. There we are. That's a problem, part of it. So that's what happens. You fill the ranks with true believers that no longer need facts, science or any of the above. And he asks them for money. Oh, they let them get money. They're used to giving money. They're not the high end givers but there are a lot of them and they are faithful to give him money. You know, one thing I can understand, and maybe you can help me reconcile these differential points. On the one hand, the stats are clear. Americans are not going to church. They haven't been going to church for a long time. The second is that you have these fall well kinds of mega churches, much bigger than what he was doing then with Ronald Reagan. And schools, colleges even teach, evangelical Christianity. And of course, part of that is political. Now, a big part of it, okay? And so you don't have people, Christians, who go to church in the various denominations. But what you do have is A, these huge ball field, you know, demi churches, semi quasi churches out there with these ministers who are really good on a microphone and thousands of people show up, thousands of them. It's a circus tent kind of, well, it's a circus is what it is. And not only that, and I have followed this as a technical matter, a lot of broadcast equipment is designed for them. In other words, when that pastor, quote, gets up and addresses these thousands of people, he's not just talking to them. He's recording himself. There are 27 cameras on him. He is broadcasting on the internet. He is reaching many, many, many more thousands of people. These guys are using modern technology. It's kind of a super social media thing to reach enormous numbers of people in the country and extend their influence. It's, but it's not religion. If it's not religion, what else could it be? They talk about Jesus a lot and they talk about Christianity and they talk about faith and they talk about turning the government over too. It's not religion. What is it? Oh, I can answer that. If you ever watched, and I'm not gonna do an imitation of it, but if you ever watched Ernest Angelie or Benny Hinn do faith healing on the stage, your first description was pretty good, a circus. And that circus brings in a lot of money from the faithful, a lot of money, just like Donald Trump's bringing in a lot of money when he asked for it because they're used to giving it. And when the call goes out, the term tithing comes up, but more than tithing. Donald Trump has played his faithful base as a bunch of suckers and they've responded in kind. And that's a sad statement. As far as I'm concerned, the Attorney General's in every 50 states should be looking at how Donald Trump is gaining his money and how he's spending it, particularly from the RNC, 50 plus million dollars for his legal fees. I'm not sure his faithful knew that they were gonna be paying for his attorneys, but there it is. So what is it? It's a circus, Jay, and you hit it perfectly. Well, you know, it's really strange that he should be the one that enables this. He should be the one that leads it. He should be the one that brings this huge circus tent of people into what is no more, no less than a cult. It's a cult for Donald Trump. They are the followers of the cult and they believe in him and therefore they come into the tent. But you know what is very interesting, and I was listening to this on a podcast recently from the New York Times, is he has the expectation that somehow he is gonna get them to fund his underfunded campaign. He's behind Biden right now. He's gonna get his base to cough it up so to fund his campaign, which he needs. At the same time, he is asking his base to fund, this is a big question, to fund the half a trillion dollars, did I get that right? Half a trillion dollars that was awarded against him in the New York fraud case. Okay, he wants them to pay for that. So add it up, you need about half a trillion to run a presidential campaign these days or more, sorry. What they said was you needed a trillion dollars to run a presidential campaign, which he doesn't have, and he needs another half a trillion to pay off this, to get the security together, right? So they don't collect on his companies. They're not gonna be able to do that. The church members just don't have that kind of cash either. And so he's gonna run up against the wall on this trying to get the money to do both. Well, as of this morning, his attorney said we could cough up 100 million. I don't think that's gonna work. So they're asking the judge to reconsider the amount. 100 million's not gonna cut it. But I'm perplexed, Jay. Why would Donald Trump have to ask his minions of faithful followers for all this money when he's selling his tennis shoes for $399? Seems to me those golden Trump tennis shoes would win the day. Give him all the capital he needs for his campaign and his attorneys. But I'm perplexed, that's just me. Well, it could be that people are not so interested in the golden shoes. It could be that he's losing the confidence of his people. No, he should sell his golden toilet then to raise money. So I don't know. You know, I mean, the question was posed in his podcast and Maggie Haberman of the New York Times was talking about it. You know, maybe he doesn't have the same kind of draw, magnetism, charisma that he used to have. These cases against him are having a negative effect on his brand. And this particular case with a half a trillion dollars, that's gonna have a negative effect on his brand. So it could be that those members of the cult who might have been more enthusiastic a year ago are no longer so enthusiastic. And God bless them for not being enthusiastic. But who knows? We don't know that yet. He's a master at playing them. And I'm afraid he's much better at it than Joe Biden is. And so he knows what we know, Tim. He knows what we're saying. And he's gonna have solutions to the problem. You know, you had mentioned that church attendance down in the United States and it certainly is and certainly way, way down in Europe. As the Christian nationalists get a greater foothold in the Republican party and certainly in influence in government, does this turn off Gen Z, the millennials? If you're a member of a minority religion in this country, to what degree are you now? Your alarm bells are going off, going, I'm not sure I like the way this sounds and smells. So what's your response if you're a younger or of a minority religion? That is such a good point. And that's the point that Ian Bremmer was making in this other podcast I was listening to this morning. You know, it's another generation coming. It's not the same generation that have supported him in his base as a younger and they're more disenchanted arguably. They recognize the system isn't working. They don't give him credit for doing anything to fix it in his first four years. They, a lot of them do not believe that he can fix it in another four years. And they're disenchanted with the social institution and he caused this, right? He spread this poison. They're disenchanted with the government and disenchanted with the social institutions. At the same time, this level of disenchantment may not be the same kind of benefit for him as before. And they may not be involved in the evangelical movement as their prior generations. So, you know, one thing we can be clear about is change. Things are changing. Things are changing in the remaining eight months. I always think of exactly how many months we have left. Things are changing even in the remaining eight months and it could be that the new voters either won't vote or will vote in a way that Trump won't like. And so we gotta see about it. The evangelicals right now today would take Trump over the threshold. He would win against Biden if the election were held today. Trump has gotten so many negative points on Joe Biden. But in the next eight months, the electorate may be different. The next generation of voters may be different. The world may be different. So we cannot say what will happen in November. Good point. The only thing I word about is the old Christian song Onward Christian Soldiers. And that has a double meaning, particularly if Donald Trump accuses the elections of fraud as he did in 2020. And then we have that to contend with. Steve Bannon's, all the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, you name it, we haven't seen the end of this yet. So we'll see. No, and let me say that we talk about the world and another Trump administration. And we always, well, Ukraine will be over. I don't know what he'll do with regard to Israel. I guess his evangelical base will want him to support Israel and he'll do that. But I think what is really, really scary is the First Amendment, the very point of this show. It's the possibility of a theocracy. And when I talk about Marjorie Green, and I always do it with disdain and contempt, I talk about Lauren Boebert the same. Those two are on the shortlist for a vice president. They could be vice president, either of them. And if they are vice president with a president who is not living a healthy lifestyle and is already what he'll be in his 70s at the time, his 80s at the time, just nearly as old as Joe Biden, they could be a heartbeat away from being president. Both of them are articulated the notion that they're really tired of the separation between church and state. And they would take it to a theocracy for political and power reasons, not religious reasons, but there you have it. So we could be a lot closer to a theocracy than we think than we have ever been. Couldn't agree with you more. And it gets scarier every time I see these reports or certainly have to watch CPAC. Incredible things are said lately, openly, and there they continue. So I'd like to thank you, Jay. I'd like to thank you for your time today. Do you have any last thoughts before we conclude? Yeah, people always ask at the end of these shows. So where's the bright side? What are the solutions to these problems that are burying us in malaise and concern? And these days, when I listen to those shows and give those discussions, including now, today, I don't have a solution. If I said to you, we gotta go out there and vote. Okay, I know what I'm gonna do. You know what you're gonna do. But a lot of people in this country are raw meat and they can be turned one way or the other. And I fear that a lot of them are gonna stick with this notion of Trump. They're gonna forget all that they have already forgotten all the incredible and serious things he did with respect to January 6th and so many other things. And they'll vote for him forgetting that and thinking that his lies are true. And so I don't have a solution for you, Tim. I wish I did. Maybe something will occur to me next week. I have a quotation from the New Testament that summarizes the last five years and certainly this campaign trail so far. Shortest sentence in the Bible. Jesus wept. And with that, I'd like to thank Jay Fidel, my co-host. I'm Tim Hapuchella. This is American Issues Take One. And won't you join us next week? And until then, a little hot.