 We are going to have a very interesting session and I'm glad that I'm joined by two very wonderful professionals who I've got to know in the recent past and have interacted with and I think it's a real pleasure and honor to have you in this panel and to be moderating such wonderful people and I invite you to listen and to have your questions ready for this panel because the women that we have with us today are such accomplished professionals and I feel if I were to introduce them and say everything that they have done would be here all morning and maybe all afternoon but just so that you know who we have today on my left and on my right I have two accomplished lawyers I mean the company of landed friends So I hope by the end of this day I can borrow a bit of that and also become a landed friend. On my left I have Phyllis Wakiyaga. Phyllis is the immediate former chief executive of the Kenya Association of Manufacturers where she worked for nine years. She is currently the senior private sector development advisor in racialization practice at the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change. She is an advocate of the High Court of Kenya and has a bachelor of law and masters in international trade and investment law from University of Nairobi. She is also a holder of a higher diploma in human resource management, executive MBA and is currently finalizing her PhD in leadership and governance at the Jomo Kenyatta University. Phyllis is also the chairperson of the Kenya Roads Board, a board member of the Kenya Energy Generating Company, Kenjen and sits on the Board of Trustees of USIU and she's been recognized among the business daily top 40 under 40. Top 10 Kenna communicators 2017, top Africa economic leaders, she's also been one of the 2019 most influential people of African descent global 140. So really guys we have a very accomplished person and I have not even told half the story right but today she's here with us and she's going to share with us her story so welcome Phyllis. Thanks a lot. And on my right I have Dr. Hata who I got to meet last week and had a very good conversation. I really enjoyed that. Thank you for coming. Now Dr. Hata is an award winning author and filmmaker. She's experienced, she's an experienced board director of various companies. She's a former investment banker and executive chair of Aria Capital Group. She has over 30 years of international management, finance and board level experience with a consistent track record of building and leading financial service businesses at Citibank, JPMorgan, AIG in London and New York. She serves on major boards, she has lectured and talked in various universities, among them there is McGill University, Strathmore Business School, New York University, Crownfield and many others. And she has been featured on CNBC, Fox, Bloomberg and the BBC and she's the author of the wonderful book just interacting with her. So many people saying oh I've read your book, it's been such an inspiration and she's here today and she's brought copies of her book and the book is the Mountain Within. Leadership lessons and inspiration for your climb to the top which was published as a lead title by Mark Groheil and the leader of a multinational and multi-ability team to summit Mount Kilimanjaro and the executive co-producer of the award winning film, The Mountain Within. So guys again we have such an accomplished person here and he's ready and willing to tell her story. So I want to invite all of you to participate in this panel session as we hear out our panelists and at some point I'm going to invite some questions from the audience so that we can get to understand what their story is. So thank you guys for joining us, that is your professional bio and it's probably scared some of you and me as well thinking okay what am I going to ask all these wonderful people who've been interviewed by BBC and all these wonderful journalists. But just to help our audience understand who you are and I'll start with you Phyllis, maybe you can tell us a bit of your background where you grew up and how you grew up so that we can see if you're somebody relatable or you came from another planet Phyllis. Thank you, thank you very much and good morning, it's still morning to all the young professionals in the room so I'll do our clarion call, young professionals convention 2023, beyond all limits. Thank you, thank you so much and it's a privilege and pleasure to be here sitting here at Nairobi Central SDA church and listening to Moses read out my bio. On a day to day basis when I come here I'm a church member and that's what I've been all my life, I grew up in this church, attended all the classes growing up and attending Maxwell, saw the old sanctuary, we built this church so I'm really just a member of the Nairobi Central SDA church and privileged to have seen a lot of favor and goodness from our God. Beyond that I'm a wife, happily married to one man who's also a member in the church here, Elder James Wakiaga, I have four children, the first born is 17, I have a 13 year old, 11 and 4.5 year old. So that's who I am, I'm a sibling, my parents went to this church, both my dad and my late mom, so really active in participating in the church over the years that they brought us up and ensuring that we had a Christian upbringing. I come from a family of three, I have two brothers, I'm a middle child, I don't know if I have middle child issues but I'm a middle child. So the only girl, I have a big brother who's one year older than me and a younger brother who's six years younger than me, but I also have many cousins who are like my siblings because we grew up in a very close knit family, spent a lot of time with our cousins from both my mother's and father's side. So there are many people who will tell you I'm Phyllises sister or I'm Phyllises brother they are, we grew up in a close knit family. But beyond that just someone who's very passionate about the continent of Africa, I claim that I'm a Pan-Africanist, I'm passionate about the fact that we have a lot of resources which is our people, our natural resources and we can maximize them to the benefit of our people and I feel like we are not doing that. So that's my passion and something I'm seeing what we can do more about and over the years in my professional life I'm privileged to have played a role in different facets of both private sector and government to do the little I can, where I can. Beyond that I'm also very passionate about mentorship and about leadership. I run a social enterprise that I registered in 2008 called Tinsight that is a platform that we use to equip, empower and transform young people and it's been the platform I've used to speak in different schools, forums and this year scaling it up to also bring in career professionals who are starting to do that. So that's my passion project for now. So that's a brief introduction of who I am. Thank you, thank you very much. So you sound like one of us here. So you're telling us that you played in these playgrounds and you are a pathfinder and a young professional in this church. Thank you, thank you very much. And Dr. Hatta. Yeah, thank you very much, Moses for setting this up so beautifully and fill as it is a privilege to collaborate with you here today. I look out at you and you look so beautiful. Thank you for being here this morning. So let me let me ask you a question. What questions would you ask from us because you are spending your time here and I would suggest that you should ask at least two questions. Do you have my best interest at heart? Do you care about me? And secondly, can I trust you? Those are the questions that you should ask us. Do you care about me and can I trust you? And what I'm asking about you because when I hear people talk about my bio I feel it doesn't tell the story. So what I'm asking about you from you is first of all, be present. Put the phones away, put your block out all the thoughts that bother you and that detract you from being here present this morning. Or it's just about afternoon. So be present. Secondly, spend a moment to be mentally prepared because what we are going to share with you is only going to make a difference if you are mentally prepared to take it in, right? And thirdly, and there's nothing you can do about this and it was not advertised but I am German by background and I am punctual. So when Kate says I want you here at eight o'clock this morning, my husband and I walked through that door at eight o'clock this morning. Fortunately, we were not alone because I saw two wonderful women coming shortly after us. And Ellen and Lydia, I think it's the two of you, I would like to give you a free copy of my book as a reward. The rest of you, if you want it, you need to make a donation. So I think that's fair, right? So in a nutshell, why am I here and why should you care about knowing my background? I think the only reason that you really should know about it is because I really genuinely want to make a difference for the kingdom. My husband and I are both ordained elders in the Seventh Day Adventist Church. I grew up as a Seventh Day Adventist not playing in these backgrounds, not at Maxwell, but I grew up in a German speaking part of Romania. A German, I spoke three languages and a dialect by the time I was four years old. And was confronted at a very early age what it really means to be a follower of Christ. I grew up at the height of communism. If you were a Christian you were a minority and being German and being Adventist that meant you were a minority of a minority of a minority. So I grew up very early on knowing that discipleship costs, that there is a price to discipleship. And following Christ, even if you can't see your path forward, following Christ, following a God who really cares and who really sees you is worth it. So as we engage here together this morning, regardless of accomplishments, one thing I have learned over the years is that God cares a lot more about who we become. The person you become, the man you become, the woman you become, the professional you become, God cares a lot more about that than what we achieve. Yes, I'm proud of my professional accomplishments, I will not hide them, but I take a lot more pleasure if someone comes to me in the grocery store and says I've been following you and you changed my life. And I can attest to that just before we walked in, a young lady just stopped you to say I read your book and it has really changed my life. So it's truly amazing to hear your story and I want to start with you. I know that you are a lawyer by training and I want you to share with our audience why did you choose that career path, why did you choose to become a lawyer? How many lawyers are in this audience? Let me see you. Steve, I see you, yes there are quite a few. I love Steve's voice, but I also know he's a good lawyer. So thank you, thank you so much and Phil is it's great to have you here. I became a lawyer because from the time I was two feet tall I thought lawyers were great people. And it goes back, let's face it we are all shaped by our history. We are shaped by our background and this is really what prompts a lot of us to do what we are doing. To make a very long story short because we literally as we say here so nicely time is not on our side. But to make a long story short some of the history students in this room will know that during World War II everyone knows about the Holocaust, right? Yes. What a lot of people don't know is that 70 Adventists were also put in the same category as the Jews because we were also worshiping on Sabbath. So my grandmother, my mother, my aunt they were all 70 Adventists, my grandfather was not, he was Lutheran. So during World War II toward the end of World War II in 1944 the police raided my parents, my grandparents house. All the Adventist books, all the Christian books were on the coffee table and the police came in raided the house, took everything, took all the books except for the Bible. The Bible was wide open on the table and the next thing we know is my mother who was 14 at the time, my aunt, my grandmother and a bit of an extended family. They were all hauled off to Marshall Court and at the time the sentence was 25 years in prison if you were convicted just for worshiping on Sabbath. So when I talk about cost of discipleship there is a cost to discipleship. And so basically fast forward the first team of lawyers that my grandfather who was quite prosperous hired, they basically said you have to deny what you did. You basically have to deny what you did because there is no defense. And even my mother at a very young age of 14 said well we can't do that. We worshiped, we are 70 Adventist Christians, we can't deny that. And then this team of lawyers walked away and said well then we can't defend you. So my grandfather then hired another team of lawyers and these lawyers all they asked was are you prepared and are you prepared to go to prison. And so they all said yeah. So there they were and my mother said this team of lawyers came in and they sounded like angels. And they defended my mother and my family and it was very interesting because they were convicted because there was no way. I mean they were caught so to speak red handed. They were convicted but the judge decided to commute the sentence. So they never went to prison. So I grew up with this notion that lawyers are great people. So that's it lawyers are great people and so I wanted to be a lawyer from the time I was two feet tall. And so from a very young age your career path was sort of defined. I mean it's a bit different for me and I don't know about you Phillies because when I was choosing to be an architect they brought us the forms to choose when I was in high school. And I thought it would be very nice if I introduced myself to girls and said hi my name is Moses. I'm an architect and I thought it would make such an impression. And that's how I ended up an architect. I don't know about you. How did you end up becoming a lawyer? Two things shaped my decision to be a lawyer. So my mom was very brilliant when she was in high school and she wanted to be a lawyer. So when she went to select her courses she was told if she selects law she wouldn't get a husband. So she chose not to do law despite being an A student and did education. Fair enough in life she later became a psychologist and got her PhD and everything. But that story just stuck me and I said what do you mean you can't do law and you will not get a husband. So it was one of the reasons probably because I wanted to do that. But also my personality I was someone who was very inquisitive and really believed in standing up for others. So standing up for people being a middle child and always trying to debate with my parents and see why you're saying what you're saying. So my personality was another reason. And the last one is my uncle was a judge. Justice Bosira is my uncle he's married to my dad's sister. So I grew up just watching him and being very curious about the law. So those are some of the things that shaped my decision to be a lawyer. Oh OK well you all saw people when you aspired. Well for me I learnt along the path. In fact my first day at university when I learnt what architecture was I tried to change course. Because what I thought it was is what I now know to be civil engineering. And I tried to change the path until one of the registrar thought this boy doesn't really know what he's doing. So he held on to my papers until the deadline passed. And so I was stuck. But I'm actually glad he did that because I do enjoy it now. And I think it was the hand of God that happened and I'm an architect today. But now I know that you're still not practicing the both of you. You're not in robes and in law courts. How did your career progress from there? Is there a point where you now owned the decision to become a lawyer. Aside of the people that inspired you to become lawyers. Is there a point where you now made a decision that this is what I want to do with my life. Professionally that is. I'll start with you. Sure. I never regretted studying law and quite frankly I passed a bad exam before I even finished law school. And so I have never regretted and when kids are actually asking because I speak a lot at universities as well. When kids are asking me what they what what I would advise them to do. And often they say I don't know what I want to do. Some do some know exactly what they want to do. But others don't. And so often I say you know just go to law school even if you don't practice law a day in your life. Because law school teaches you three things. It teaches you to work under enormous pressure. If you go to a good school you need to work under enormous pressure. Secondly it teaches you to differentiate between major premise and minor premise. In other words what is really important and what is secondary and tertiary. We get so bogged down sometimes even in marriage or in our relationships fighting over the little things. Like write a proverbial toothpaste and whatever. Who cares right. Who cares about these things. Let's focus on what really matters what is really really important. It's the same in church. Sometimes when I see what people fight about in church. I think can we just stop for a second and go to law school. And differentiate between major premise and minor premise. And then the third thing that law school really teaches you is to speak persuasively. Because this applies to any career any profession. If you want to get ahead in life you need to be able to put your point across. Sasingly thoughtfully with empathy being able to put yourself into the other person's shoes and communicate clearly. So that is really the major benefit. So for me I practiced law for a while and really under enormous pressure. I mean I was in the middle of the big deals the big transatlantic deals. Sleeping two hours a night many times. We have a wonderful story with my husband because right now I'm incredibly organized. So if you come to our house or my office or whatever I am incredibly organized. But during these days of practicing law I wasn't so organized. I mean sometimes I would as I said I would sleep two hours a night. And you know I would literally go and run out of the house and say and then I couldn't find my belt. And I would turn to my husband and I would say Swita do you know where my blue belt is? Two seconds later my husband comes up with the blue belt. The next day you know where my red shoes are. I couldn't find my red shoes. Two seconds later my husband comes up with my red shoes. All of a sudden this goes on for weeks because I'm not that astute. This goes on for weeks. I turn to my husband. How come you find all the things that I don't find? And he says well we have a three day bag. And I said what a three day bag. And he says yeah if you leave something lying around the house for three days. I'm counting for three days then it goes in the bag. I remember looking at my husband and thinking this is the guy I love. This is the guy I married. I was livid. And it took us years to start laughing about it. But the pressure was just enormous. But that was a great experience. And I basically decided I'm actually very commercial. I am happy to live with my own decisions. If you are a lawyer you are always advising, right? You are always advising. And I said I'm quite commercial. I can live with my own decisions. And so I basically transitioned into banking, investment banking. I wanted more control over my life. And then became an investment banker. Quit investment banking at the top of my game. And then several years after that started Aria Capital, a company that is specifically focused on Africa and clean and renewable energy. So it's been a very interesting transition from practicing law to running businesses in large institutions. And then starting my own business and with the support of my husband. And that probably is the hardest thing I've ever done particularly. I love you guys but Africa is not an easy place to do business. And I know we're going to get into that. It's so interesting you talk about being organized and how what you studied has shaped also how you behave and how you do things. And coming to you Phyllis, I just want to understand. I know you also are probably the same in the way you operate as a lawyer. But I want to understand why didn't you drop out of law school in start business like Bill Gates or like all this tech people who are dropping out of college and going into business and becoming billionaires. Right now I know that you're pursuing your PhD. You've done all manner of courses along the way. Why are you still seeking knowledge? First of all I probably didn't drop out of school because my parents would have probably hung me or something. So of course because at that time how do you drop out of school but also because I was passionate about what I was doing. I knew that I wanted to get a degree, go out and work, make a difference. So that kept me going and that keeps me going until now. I'm someone who's very deep about the pursuit of knowledge. So I always want to learn. I always want to know. I read a lot. I take any opportunity to get into a fellowship, to get into a training. So it's just part of my passion. Is it important to go to school? I think it's important to go to school because I like what Dr. Hatter said. There are things that come out when you go to school that might not even be what you're taught in class but what school makes you become. So that discipline sometimes of learning how to manage your time. For example I went, I did apart from my degree I did everything else when I was married with children. So it meant I had to be very deliberate about how I prioritized my time, who I spent time with, what I major in my naon because I had to be very, very disciplined. So the fact that you're going to school makes you have to inculcate some of those practices. So sometimes it's not even the knowledge you get which is important but the person it makes you become in the process of learning. Yeah and my wife is here today and I see how much she does just to keep us organized at home. Now you're pursuing your PhD. Dr. Hatter you're writing books. You're running a very big business. You guys are doing all those things. How do you find the time to do these things? How do we find the time? Yeah and I'd like the both of you to tell us you're a wife, you have children, you have husbands. How do you make time to still progress your careers and still have a family and still study? How do you manage? Okay I'll go first. I'll go first. I was posing so that Dr. Hatter goes first because she's more experienced so she probably has greater tips. But for me it's been the ability to just remain disciplined. As I've said I've had to make choices in my life of what to focus on at any given time. That has really helped because sometimes you've had to reduce the amount of time you spend with your friends to focus on family, to focus on what matters. But it starts from the place of knowing what your vision in life is. So beginning with the end in mind what do I want? By the time I'm done with my life what do I want to have achieved or to be remembered for? And for me I'm very clear about that. I have my vision written out. I know my itigai, I know why God has put me here. So that limits the amount of conflict I have in terms of prioritizing. So I'm able to prioritize and choose what to do in my time. I also must say I've had a strong social support network for my friends, my siblings my help even at home who have stayed with me for almost 14, 15 years. So just having that strong social support system but also having God at the center of my life. I say I try and live a centered life not a balanced life because for me if your center is clear the other things gravitate around that. So in summary that's what I would say. Okay and what about you? Are there mutually exclusive events being a family person and also being a career woman? No, not at all. And I was listening to Philas talking about being centered and one of the things that we often and this has been a struggle for me to actually recognize that there is no difference between the secular and the sacred. We all speak English but quite frankly these segregations come from the Greeks. So we basically say okay that's my business life that's my church life that's my family life and it doesn't work like that. People who are really truly happy and successful are fully integrated. They live fully integrated lives and if to me in business for example I don't tell everyone I'm a 7 day adventist when I meet them, right? But I don't want anybody to be surprised when they hear that I'm a person of faith that I'm a follower of Jesus. I really don't want them to be surprised because I want my actions to be fully integrated with who I am. So it's living a centered life it's living a fully integrated life knowing that and I have had to learn this to say no learning to say no and being very clear about my calling I genuinely cannot help everybody and what stresses me out more than anything else is knowing that I literally can't help everybody we get requests all the time to help people and there are times I feel so so devastated by the fact that I can't help everybody knowing that that's not my job I'm not God and I don't have a messiah complex and staying focused and staying disciplined on the calling that God has on my life but to me the key and this was an evolution and it continues to be an evolution is to really live a fully integrated life in other words I'm the same person at home as I am in the office you and you know we all scrub up really well but that there is consistency across across that you can see a very clear clear line that's very interesting you mentioned that you don't announce yourself and you actually pick words out of my mouth when I started working at Tatu City I was interviewed by a panel and they said it has been said to us that you are a seventh day adventist as a CJ Maraga and I said yes and the interview was done I didn't have to answer any more questions about being a seventh day adventist they knew exactly what it meant that if I had to sit in the supreme court on the Sabbath I wouldn't so CJ Maraga did the work for me now now for you she said you don't announce yourself but do you announce yourself to engagements where there might be a conflict with your beliefs so do you pronounce yourself first or do you wait for the situation to arise and then you announce yourself I believe it depends on the situation take employment for example when I was interviewed to join the Kenya Association of Manufacturers I made it clear from the beginning I would not work on a Sabbath and I worked there for nine years and never worked on a Sabbath and they had to adjust to what I had done but it's not every situation where you're asked upfront are you a believer or what is your faith but what I've always done is any opportunity I have to first of all leave your faith because the most important thing is sometimes you can be a person of faith but the way you live can even discourage people to believe in Christianity how you treat people sometimes you can be mean to people so I try to be a Christian in who I am so that I don't have to announce myself you're the one who would say there's something different about you and that would give me an opportunity but any time I have an opportunity to speak about my faith I do it if it's in a space where because depending on where you work certain organizations have policies like where I am currently that you don't speak about faith but in a place like the association to always inject aspects of your faith in different things so it depends on the situation so you did not join the organization and say I don't take tea please make sure we always have soya make sure we always have vegetarian diet I'm not a vegetarian unfortunately but yes and so I'm curious to know then how did you make yourselves visible in these organizations where you worked so much that you rose up the ranks you became CEOs you became managers how did you make yourselves visible in these organizations maybe I'll start there and living a fully integrated life in terms of your values in terms of what you stand for but in the professions if someone like Citibank or JP Morgan or whatever hire you they hire you to do a great job to do sidebars and talk to people about your faith they hire you to do a great job and I think as Christians we should be known as people of excellence I met with I have had the privilege to meet with heads of state across the world with royalty and so forth and that's why my husband and I are not intimidated by any titles and I just find it incredibly remarkable that we seem to be so enamored of titles those titles don't matter if you are not a truly transformational leader then quite frankly you can have ten titles and they don't make any difference and positional leaders are only going to lead you while they are in that position so I met with one particular head of state very close to where we are right now and his entourage wanted to specifically meet on Sabbath afternoon and he knew I was an Adventist and so this is just a little segue to your point about how did you rise and basically you get to meet these people generally if they know that you are good at what you do in the first instance now in this case this is a head of state who has a secret service entourage that's as big as this room and here is little me and I'm saying to the protocol officer I'm sorry I cannot meet with his excellency until after sunset and the protocol officer turned ashen his face just turned pale I could see it under his skin and he just looked at me and said Dr. Von Stiegel let me come back to you so he comes back and says well actually his excellency is willing to wait for you till after sunset and so I'm literally sitting at state house and the secret service people are walking by the president son is coming etc and we're just sitting there and we're talking and in the meantime sunset comes the protocol officer comes and says Dr. Von Stiegel the president is ready to meet you and of course I had my team and we go in when I walk in there is the president here and there must have been at least 20 people again on the other side I had not expected that there were at least 20 people on the other side and I thought God give me grace because this is a trial I knew this was not going to to go well on my own in my own strength so sure enough he looks at me and he says so Dr. Von Stiegel I hear you're a fundamentalist and I said well I'm fundamental about something so it depends what you mean by fundamentalist to make a long story short he says I too am a Christian so what makes you so different what makes your faith different from in essence he almost said you make me wait here all afternoon this is not normal so I basically and I want you to think about that if you are called upon to basically say what is different about you what is your faith that makes you different doctrinally in terms of your values in terms of who you are so let me stop there so ask yourself those questions and I want you to pose and think about yourself also because you're in the stage where doctor was back then and what are your values what do you stand for and just building on to that feeling you became CEO of the Kenya Association of Manufacturers after working for nine years in the same association how did you become CEO to ask a writer to this question did you have to befriend anyone you know I know that we always these are a certain mindset that we carry and I think you're able to address that very well thanks for that but for me it's what doctor Hata has said your work speaks for you it's about your diligence and your hard work and I've been doing them for two years they were looking actually for a CEO because at that time the CEO was Betty Minor the former CS of industry her contract was coming to an end and they recruited three people who were sort of like part of the succession plan myself and two gentlemen and I worked hard for those two years and made a difference when I was the head of policy there I did a lot of transformative things with the judiciary with the executive because I was outstanding in my work I scored very highly in my appraisals and in my relationships with the different stakeholders we had good working relationships but a lot of it just stem from the fact that I went in as a Christian knowing that I had to work with diligence that I had to put in my best foot forward that I had to use my position opportunity to make a difference for the world around me and to those around me so I think that stood out very clear from the beginning about my faith and they actually saw that for that period of time even before I became CEO that I lived what I spoke so when the time came to become CEO I got appointed to lead the organization and still remained morally upright and a good Christian I did not have to compromise or do anything to get the position oh that's good to hear and is it difficult for women then were you competing like you said there were some two other people who were taking position for the succession plan is it difficult for you as women in a world where most of those organizations have men do you face any gender issues did you feel like you had to work harder as a woman for sure but I think maybe talking to the women here for a moment the limitations really are in your mind and there was one good thing that was communism actually two good things one was the education was second to none so you really need good education secondly the idea that I couldn't do certain things because I'm a woman that just didn't come across my mind until interestingly enough I got to the states and I went to our own wonderful Andrews University so this was the first time I went to an Adventist school I was just thrilled I just remember the first time we went to chapel and I saw thousands of people walking walking to pioneer memorial church and I thought I had died and gone to heaven it was just to me it was just such an incredible privilege but and that was the first time that I was really confronted with the fact because my college advisor I told him I want to go to law school so my college advisor actually looks at me and I had a GPA of 3.84 I was at the top of my class and I was going through a four year course in two years and a semester so I was running through this and so my very own advisor says to me well Herta so you want to go to law school I said yes and he looked at me with my GPA and everything I know you are hard working but I'm not sure you are smart and then he says to me good Adventist man that he was he says to me and by the way all Adventists who went to law school are no longer in the church so why would you go to law school so I remember walking out of that meeting and thinking well thank you very much for that but it made me so determined I said listen one person is not going to stop me and it was consistent actually throughout my career there were people who were incredibly supportive including my husband who is absolutely my best friend and our extended family and so forth but it's yes you are scrutinized and I was one of the very few female managing directors in the city in London and so forth female managing directors so you are being scrutinized all the time and but I think there are tremendous advantages to being a woman because we talk about the challenges as women but we also have tremendous advantages so it really just depends on what you want to focus on and make it work make it work for you but one thing that's so important and I've seen it with particularly highly skilled professionals over the years female professionals they become more Catholic than the Pope or more masculine than the men and quite frankly you don't and this is the message I want to give to women here you don't have to become like the men thinking you need to be macho and I worked on the trading floor so people were swearing all the time and women started to swear just like the men and so forth around me and I never told a single person don't swear around me or don't do this but literally people would come to me and they would swear a blue streak and all of a sudden oh Herta I'm so sorry I know you don't so you be yourself God has gifted us with amazing amazing gifts amazing skills you can remain feminine you can look you can wear pink or whatever you want to wear be yourself and just allow that beauty that God has gifted us with to come out thank you that is so well said for Phyllis a friend of mine was saying that it must be easier for a woman to take risks because you have a backup plan who is your husband how stereotype is that is that the case if you start a business and it fails you can go back to your husband and that is a stereotype like you rightly said that people carry have you and that's the reality and those biases exist even in the workplace so as women we have to go in our own selves know that we have no limitations and not allow those stereotypes or biases to hold us back because the reality is they are ingrained I had an interesting conversation with my four year old four and a half year old son a few two weeks ago who were sitting in the backyard my husband was working on his he's a judge so he told him don't touch my files my boss will not be happy if you spoil them so my son asks him who's your boss so my husband says my boss is called CJ Martha Kouame my son bursts out laughing and says you have a lady boss you don't have a real boss so I was taken aback because I said this is a four and a half year old first of all his mother has seats in positions of leadership but probably what he watches or what he hears or what he explains but just coming back to the fact that those stereotypes and biases exist and there are a reality in the workplace but I've never allowed them to hold me back so I don't walk into a room saying I'm a woman, I am disadvantaged these people will do this I walk in as an equal partner but I also do not try and become a man because there are certain things or strengths that you have as a woman that a man would never have you listen better you have better perception you are able to carry people along so you capitalize on the strengths of being a woman and that eventually becomes very very valuable so it shouldn't be a limitation I am also an only girl so I grew up with boys and I never felt like I was a girl or I was disadvantaged because I was a girl I used it as a strength so that's what my point of view would be can I just build on that for a moment because Phyllis made such an excellent point about knowing your strengths and one thing I wish I had known that earlier when I was younger if you will do you know your IQ is fixed by the time you're 18 you're not going to get any smarter so if your IQ is 150 you're probably going to stay at 150 that doesn't mean you don't learn and you don't get advanced degrees and you don't expand your knowledge but your IQ as such is fixed and you need those skills you need to be reasonably smart whether it's street smart or whatever smart it is to get a job to start a business to whatever however your emotional intelligence and the higher you get in organizations it's assumed that you have a certain intelligence the higher you get in an organization then it comes down to what kind of leadership skills do you have what kind of leader are you are you really a transformational leader and that comes down to your emotional intelligence and the good news is you can become more emotional intelligent for the rest of your life so you never stop learning you can learn empathy you can learn putting into yourself into someone else's shoes and so forth I mean this is just so important so when we are talking about soft skills these skills are not soft because they hit the bottom line you can't run a successful business unless you really are a good leader at least certainly not a sustainable business so knowing that you can learn and become emotionally intelligent that is true for men and women alike but women tend to be better when it comes to those so-called soft skills that are actually very hard at the end of the day and I agree with you fully and also I remember when you had a conversation with you last week and you mentioned it today also that it's very difficult to do business in Africa and I'm sure the same challenges that we face you have also come across these challenges and today talking about the integrity in the marketplace have you faced those challenges where let's talk about needing to bribe someone to get somewhere or to get business and how do you deal with that? Ya I mean there is the temptation to take shortcuts and young people one of the things that breaks my heart is when I see people thinking that if I just take shortcuts if I'm just going to cut the corner here I'm going to get that money and I'm going to be happy that's not life what happens there is simply the devil has you and it's going to brow beat you for the rest of your life if you know so in my case I can honestly say no one has ever asked me for a bribe but that is because I'm absolutely clear about our values and people know that we are operating completely with clean hands and it just happened this last week someone was introduced to me through a business partner I mean they had an enormous amount of money to invest and they said we have been following your projects we want to invest in your projects and here are literally hundreds of millions of dollars we are happy to write you a check now and my first question was where is this money coming from so while people have never asked directly for a bribe because they know how we operate we have been approached about things like this but also one thing that we have and why it is difficult sometimes and frustrating is because we literally particularly because we are in the energy sector these projects are incredibly visible in one situation we have had to to wait for almost four years till the minister who was blocking us who wanted a bribe he basically invited me to a private session never asked for a bribe but you could tell what he wanted we had to wait for this guy to be removed and then we could start again what does that mean in practice what it means in practice is if you walk with God the path is not always easy for professionals like us there are a lot of things that are much easier to make money this is not about money this is about calling and someone asked me the other day how do you actually when are you going to write a book on business and integrity but I'm actually writing it it's all in my head and I'm experiencing it it's all here but yes this is the reality but God sees and if you don't have the confidence that God sees God saw Joseph in prison God saw I mean Joseph and Daniel are my favorite among my favorite examples in the Bible he sees us in the dungeon he sees us in prison he sees us in our disappointments he sees us when people are not dealing with us fairly God sees and we have to trust him that he will reward us in due time my friend Mark Allen is sitting here in the audience and when you said 150 million I saw you think I'll take it and repent later 150 million fillies would you and you know people say this is Kenya and you know they say Hini Kenya and you can't get anything done without facilitating someone do you face those challenges and how do you deal with it you're right unfortunately the world we live in and especially our country and continent is full of that people are having to bribe to get the deal to get the contract all those things are happening but unfortunately for me people just say don't waste your time with fillies didn't even listen to those stories so I'm known for that so even having led an organization I was in camp for nine years a lot of contracts we used to do over 700 million every year I never did any deals for all those years and it's one of those things because they are people who then do not want you to be in certain places because it's not good for them and they know that if you're sitting there you will not be part of either corruption or bribery or such things but it's not easy by the way it's difficult because it's a choice you have to make consciously every day you'll have conversations and people are like in fact last week I had someone tell me if people were like you in Kenya they would be no corruption unfortunately even if it would rather be the few and far between because at the end of the day God sees, God rewards and any ill-gotten wealth at the end of the day it will not bring you anything you are the blessings of the Lord that make you rich and bring no sorrow for me that's my bottom line it continues to be and it's something that I pray for in the long term to continue to be my calling and my bottom line it's not easy but it's a journey I think as Christians we are talking about leaving your Christian values every day and allow me to ask because these conversations we have them all the time even in different circles and it's framed in different ways and people in Kikuyu language say go shokia wu oko so somebody gives you business what a million dollars or a hundred million and they facilitated you getting that business if you ever go back to say thank you let me ask it loosely like that now I mean you have to be very very careful because right now if you want to build anything you need to have a name and you need to protect your name if you are in business you want to be funded by clean money and so forth you go through an excruciating process you know you everything is turned up and literally people will hire agencies like crawl and whatever to do background checks on you and whatever so if you are too closely aligned with politicians if you are if there is a whiff of scandal quite frankly you don't get funded you may get funded with dirty money but you don't get funded so protecting your name and I think this is why if you don't protect your name on your journey because we always say I want to be on top of the mountain well quite frankly can you just imagine if Joseph had been in the palace when he was 18 years old and here is in the palace and has all this power and so forth he would not have been able to handle it quite frankly neither can you or I and that money if we have not been faithful in little things along the way and the end does not justify the means I have learned that the end does not justify the means if you think you can take shortcuts and but this what we are talking about here only makes sense only makes sense if you are grounded in faith it makes no sense if you are an unbeliever and you think you know live it up because tomorrow I'm going to die then fine that's a different lifestyle but if you are living for the kingdom then this makes sense yes we have about 10 minutes so we can allow questions from the audience and I'm sure somebody is going to to pass me the questions from the from the audience and as you are thinking about your questions I would like for the both of you to tell us you know Chonkata who some of the people here will know as Jay Z said that the goal is not to be successful and famous the goal is to be to be able to live your life out through your God given abilities so for you what is your goal because some of us here the goal is to be rich and famous but for you what is your goal and what things you do why you will turn down 150 million dollars what is that what is the goal for you for me it's actually quite quite simple and my husband and I and in our family with our son and grandchildren and so forth we talk about this it really comes down to you know the reference in the book of acts to David is he fulfilled his purpose in his generation it's really as simple as that you know to actually fulfill God's purpose through me in my generation not yesterday not tomorrow but I have a role to play right now we have a role to play right now as a family as an extended family and so forth so fulfilling that purpose because I do I genuinely want to see I want to stand before Jesus and he can say well done good and faithful Hertha that sounds sanctimonious but it comes from the heart and maybe just the last you know every morning I wouldn't dare to leave the house without actually and I mean this our prayer is always let me hear of your unfailing love to me in the morning for I am trusting in you for I've come to you in prayer save me from my enemies Lord I run to you to hide me teach me to do your will for you are my God may your gracious spirit lead me forward on a firm footing and this is a daily journey amen what do you say amen we find successors and I have come to overtime but even when I was younger it's first of all knowing your purpose just asking God to show you what your purpose is in life and once that is clear to you ensuring that you maximise your potential because you can have a purpose but you're leaving a haphazard life if you're just getting by I think for God excellence is at the heart of who is making your potential once you're very clear on your purpose so if it means that your purpose is going to serve be the best at that if it's sweeping be the best sweeper if it means you're being a CEO be the best at it and then the third one for me that's most important is sowing seeds that benefit others because at the end of the day God did not put us here for ourselves He put us here to be of service to others so whether it's your family whether it's God because I think that's the most critical I always say the greatest gift my mother gave me was knowing God because when you know God it makes a big difference in who you are it makes a big difference in how you perceive life it makes a big difference in what is important because there are certain things that bother people that will never bother you as a Christian and that knowledge of God is really the beginning that's my definition of success Thank you and I'm sure you have questions for this wonderful people on stage so I'll take three questions at a time with only nine minutes so we cannot take all the questions but I'll allow some questions starting from the gentleman in black Thank you very much for the wonderful presentation and congratulations to all of you for your accomplishments a question that has two parts first of all when you were starting out in your professional lives did you envision that you'd be this successful was that your intention and then secondly in your development have you ever had moments of doubt have you failed at any time because it's easy for us sitting here to look at you and think wow you had it straight all along there are times when you are not sure were there times that you failed were there times that you almost gave up Okay that's a very good question let me take two more one sitting behind you Good afternoon everyone I'm happy to be here I'm Alvin Mokaya a leadership coach and one of the things that I'm currently fascinated with is emotional intelligence Dr. Hara you talked about that I would like to know how to develop emotional intelligence because IQ you said if it's fixed at some point but we never stop learning but now for me I'm really interested in the how to learn emotional intelligence and if there are some books that you can recommend or some particular channels on YouTube or particular websites that you can recommend that can help someone to develop the concept of emotional intelligence then to Dr. Phyllis you've talked about discovering your purpose so for me it's the how that is one of the hardest questions to answer how do you discover your purpose and while on it still on you Dr. Phyllis young people are struggling with employability so what would you advise advice a fresh graduate because that is really literally when in church that's the biggest problem we have we have a lot of papers you're on top of your class but getting that job is not that easy so what do you do with your papers alright I think let's try and answer those two questions first and who wants to go first you want to I mean I'm happy to take the question on failure it's such an excellent question because no I did not envision that to be honest and I'm surprised every day that God has been so good to me and continues to be so good to me so it hasn't been a straight path and you learn a lot more from your failures than you learn from your successes and yes when I look back on my life setbacks I don't actually call them failures because we learn from everything if we learn from something that didn't work out it was not a failure and I've often been inspired by Edison who invented the light bulb and they had done over a thousand experiments and the people around him were basically saying we are failing all the time and he said oh no no no we now know a thousand three hundred ways that don't work so I think this is so important and I see it in the Phyllis touched on this about the culture and the stereotypes I see it particularly here much more so in Kenya than in other parts of the world where we have lived we seem to be so afraid to admit to failure and I saw it with our house manager she would break dishes and all of a sudden the dishes would disappear and I would say Lucy what happened to that cup I don't know and I actually had to sit her down and say you know I know dishes break if I didn't want dishes to break I would put them in the dishwasher all the time so don't worry just let's be honest so admitting to things that don't work and knowing that there is a reason for it and training our children that these things are so important that success is not linear and I want to touch on that because so many particularly university graduates they are reluctant to take on jobs or roles that are so called beneath them listen I did Persian rugs when I was in school I didn't know I would have a future I learned to work with my hands and there is nothing beneath you because everything you do you learn something from it so it may seem like you're stepping backward but you're not you're learning something so keep failing but I have a whole chapter in my book about failing forward and I think this is the important part you know let's make it count and fail forward rather than backward so please get a copy of the book and Willis did you envision success I think that was a very good question I desired success so I wanted to be successful and there are things I dreamt about and God put in my heart to desire so I did did I know it would be exactly like this not necessarily and I still think this as I've said what success is is not titles or positions for me that's really not what success is it's a good thing because it gives you a platform and it gives you visibility and you're able to either be a witness to others or to encourage and inspire others but for me success was about my purpose I know I did say that for very long I had always said I would be CEO by the time I'm 35 but that was like you know something you put as a goal but it's bigger than that it's how you really maximise your purpose and it's a journey for all of us until the grave it's not something you reach a pinakol and you're there but I've been reading Stephen Covey's last book that he wrote it's called Living Life in Crescendo and saying that your most important work is always ahead of you so as long as God keeps us alive we are still here to make a bigger impact and to do more and the ability to be able to see how you can continuously live your life in Crescendo and not reach a point which is a peak and you're not living anymore because as long as we are alive we live to add value about emotional intelligence so if you can google their books very good books about emotional intelligence we also have a very good coach on emotional intelligence who's Adventist Muchamulingo I think a number of you know her she's a member in Lavington she trains and coaches on emotional intelligence and there are a lot of books YouTube channels so just be conscious to get the information and see how you can leave it and apply it to your life I agree with Dr. Hatter that as young people he finished university and he had a job with Akai in one week the reality of our generation is that that's not how easy it's going to be because of the challenges of unemployment in the continent and we didn't have time to give our journeys but for some of us I remember the I did practice in a law firm briefly but I wanted to go into the corporate world and one of the first jobs I did was at Kup Bank where we were put in a basement to cut their shareholder checks and when we went to that job by the time we were taken to the basement some people left others never came back the following day a few of us maybe five or six stuck to the very end and the first job offer I got from a corporate was actually from corporate bank which I turned down because I got a better offer from KQ the same week so just be diligent at that time it looked humiliating that you're doing that but we learned something out of it and we were positive about it but we not only think that employment is the only thing we have skills, we have abilities that we can offer to people and in today's world they even jobs online there's an opportunity for entrepreneurship and many other things that we can do so thinking outside the box and then the issue about discovering your purpose there are four main things which when they come together really become the core of your purpose one of them is what you're good at the other one is what you love doing the other is what you can be paid for which is your profession and then I spoke about your passion what you love doing so if you read about discovering your purpose one of the books that I read that was useful for that was the seven habits of highly effective people and there are exercises where you can at the end of it come out with a very clear way forward on what your purpose is but we can discuss more beyond this conversation thanks and we have a hard stop because our panelists also are engaged elsewhere so I'm going to have to end it here by reading from the Bible someone which says blessed is the man that worketh not in the council of the ungodly no standard in the way of sinners no seated in the seat of the skonfu but his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law he doth meditate day and night and he shall be like a tree planted that brings forth fruit in his season his life also shall not wither and whatsoever he doth shall prosper amen that is a promise from God and if we follow this then the Bible promises us that we are going to prosper so thank you for being a very attentive audience I think our panelists have enjoyed talking to you and I'm just going to give them a minute each to just give a closing remark and then we're going to end our session here I'll start with you Dr. Hatter thank you very much I just want to do speak to you like a mother for a moment and just encourage each one of you to just walk the talk transformation never starts with big groups it starts with a few people it starts with small groups if I just look at all of you in this room if everyone here goes out today and says I am going to make a difference I'm going to be excellent at what I do I'm going to take advantage of every opportunity that God sends my way I'm going to be grounded in Christ I'm going to be grounded in my face and I'm going to trust God fully we would transform this nation and I just want to encourage you don't wait for the government to do something don't wait for someone else to do something God has uniquely gifted each one of you to do something and your walk is going to be different than mine but God is not going to hold you and He is not going to hold you accountable for me you have to find your own way so go make a difference and resolve in your heart remember the mountain is within so transformation starts with you transformation starts with each one of us and the mountain is within if we conquer that everything else falls into place so conquer your own mountain and keep climbing that I can only encourage you in spite of setbacks in spite of failures in spite of the difficulties keep going because the view is worth it thank you very much you also want to say your book is available you'll be signing a few books yes absolutely if you would like a copy of my book we make it available at deeply discounted rates for the donation all the proceeds go to charity the cause is at the moment but I would encourage you not because it's my book but I think if you do want to make a difference you need to invest in yourself you need to know that you are worth it and you need to invest in yourself and this would be a small investment alright thank you very much Dr. Hatter I'm incredibly honored that I met you and I'm so glad that we got to do this together thank you very much Phyllis I'll also give you a few minutes and tell us when you're writing your book thank you yes the book is in me as Dr. Hatter said it's been on my to-do list for very long and I get requests can we help you write your book so I'm challenged I do need to sit and write a book I hope I can do this year I know I shouldn't be operating on hope but yes I will plan and be deliberate but I just wanted to conclude by encouraging all of us through a verse in Proverbs that let us all trust in the Lord with all our hearts and lean not on our own understanding let us acknowledge him in all our ways and he will surely direct our path so I know the road ahead is not known for any of us but as long as we are trusting God and leaning on him he will direct us and he will ensure that he maximizes our potential in this lifetime and I'm available for any support that you need across this journey in mentorship and conversation and just inspiration and encouragement and prayer asante sana alright thank you very much I think we give them a round of applause hand it over back to our host hello how many of us are starting to feel the fire burning we are starting to feel something happening we want to thank God very much for this panel I would like to ask you to just sit a bit and I would like to check in how many people, how many questions have we not answered that we had in the I think there were a couple of hands I don't know whether we have taken all the questions we still have one, two, three about four questions and we would like to I know we have a bit of pressure but the panelist needs to leave but I believe that so if you can indulge us just for a few minutes we are asking the panel to just we will take all the questions then the panel will handle all of them together before pastor comes up to give our appreciation a wide of appreciation for the panel so please as AYPs let's just move quickly ask your question I have this other mic Thank you My name is Juris Obuya I'm in a private sector as a contractor I wanted to ask that is it sinful to buy or pay for a job that you are qualified for Hi Dr. Hata my question is how do you you can hear me my question is how do you navigate mentorship and the talking Good morning My name is Jared I run a company for cleaning services two questions number one how do you do a tender when the person being given a tender probably has been predestamined had been known already or the person going to be given the tender has given a bribe yet you are giving all the tender number two has got a platform from when they were young up to the time they get job the timeline has been well but there are people that has no opportunity of such nature when they can't even finish campus or college they can't even finish high school how would you encourage such a person because they also need to live they also need to strive they also need to one point to another so how would you encourage such a person that he didn't get he or she didn't get the opportunity to to finish though he wanted or she wanted to finish oh thank you so much two question I know during your growth in corporate world you face discouragement so how do you deal with the discouragement either from your friends or one who discourage you in your growth secondly some of the hindrance but after noon my question are we do you need a minute yes hello my name is Brian I have two questions for Dr. Hata I saw you made a film I'm really enthusiastic about film and telling a story through a lens my question would be how do you navigate the film industry in an Adventist perspective knowing directors like James Cameron who made the Avatar movie how do you tell stories without provoking or bending again there are values but how do you navigate the film industry and make a name for yourself telling stories about Christ and perspectives from Bibles and then you mentioned something about school is school necessary my question is how do you deal with the stereotypes around that you can teach yourself and go around walking a few things here and there but how do you navigate that thank you thank you so much my questions two questions one I know during your growth in your career you faced discouragements so how did you navigate or deal with discouragements in your growth or in your leadership scale alright thank you my question I have about three questions one is how do you navigate the well mental health and having whether that will be anxiety or depression in your day to day and showing up still even when there's difficult days that's the first the second is when you were pivoted from when you were an investment banker and were at your peak so what did you feel inclined towards making a shift and then the last is how do you challenge stereotypes from home that is generally the home is general this is in terms of family and having those conversations that empower both male and female roles my name is Felix I'm a nature professional and my question is through finance family and career growth so how do you advise the young people in this forum how you manage your finances assuming you've grown to the lad of the career to become top you have a husband there or you have a wife there is your money and also does it affect respect in the family if one of the partners has grown through the career thank you okay thank you very much for your questions I see we have about eight or nine questions so I'll allow our panelists to just take the questions in whichever questions you feel you want to answer and so Dr. Hatter you can go first sure I'll take the sorry we were struggling to hear some of the questions so forgive me if I'm not answering exactly what you were asking but the question about mentorship quite frankly mentorship to my mind is a 360 we always think of mentorship that I am mentoring somebody who is younger than me I'm being mentored by somebody who is senior senior to me mentorship really has is much more to me it's much more comprehensive than that yes if you are aspiring to have a certain career for example having a career coach or someone who can mentor you from a career point of view that is very important I have multiple mentors for different purposes if you do want mentorship I would just ask you please if you want time with somebody don't waste that time if someone is coming to me and says I want you to mentor me I want to know exactly why you want that I want you to come with a list of questions I want you to come with having read what is in the public domain this is why I would like your mentorship people who have achieved a lot they have a lot to give but they don't and I speak for myself here probably this is controversial but you look at people like John Maxwell for example he was mentored by some of the best people out there but the only reason he was mentored by the best people out there was because he respected them and he came prepared so if you want mentorship make sure you're prepared make sure you know what you want and what you want from that person mentorship is 360 I am mentored by people who are much younger than I am because quite frankly you guys know a lot more about IT you know a lot more about social media and so forth things that I'm not good at and I need to be mentored by people who know who have skills so mentorship think about it as a 360 this is what has helped me and continues to help me think about it as a program and if you are seeking out certain people who you would be tempted to put on a pedestal that they want to that you want them to mentor you make sure that you don't waste that time that sounds harsh but it's very very important and to be very very clear why you want that mentorship so that is one question I'm happy to take and then maybe quickly do you want on the film the gentleman in the back had a question about yes actually I never wanted to write a book so when my husband and I took this group of disabled and non-disabled climbers of Kilimanjaro I wanted to make a film that would actually show the journey that would show that everyone is enabled somehow and that everyone is entitled to their dreams and that we can do a lot more together than anyone of us separately so that's what I wanted to convey in the film we've been incredibly fortunate my husband co-produced it it's an award winning film it has won multiple awards and it is available out there and we didn't bring any copies today but it has won best documentary and so forth it is really important to your point that the films that we are making and that we are willing to sponsor and so forth actually tell stories about real values and so yes I think there are real opportunities in the film industry but you do need some money to do it but that's how it started and the book was an afterthought so yes there is some amazing work that can be done through film so if that's your field then do please seek people out because I think the opportunities are enormous the impact, the opportunities for impact thank you very much I'm glad excuse me you talked about mentorship and how you went about doing your film and book and Phyllis you want to take a couple of questions I'll just do a quick fire is it sinful to pay for a job you qualify for if it's a bribe it's sinful and it's unlawful the issue on tenders I didn't hear the question clearly but if it's about corruption I think we spoke about issues and those situations because you'll get into them a lot it's the difficult position to take it's the issues and rewards you for taking those hard calls there was something about transitioning from one career to another this one was a written question yes you can transition from a career to another but just make sure you know the why why you want to transition do a career assessment to understand what your strengths are your skills what you will need to move into that new career so probably speak to people in the career network if you need to go back to school for the new career and just research widely I had a question on mental health let me just interject if I may for just a moment because this is such an important point because you look at our lives we started as lawyers we became CEOs and in my case bankers and so forth I actually transitioned from law into banking by going into city bank in my field I became senior tax council it's a switch to investment banking to actually run a PNL to build a business I did it within city bank because everyone knew me so if you want to transition from one field to another you need sponsors and I know sponsors kind of has a negative connotation I know in Nigeria it does I'm not sure is it the same here sorry good people but when I am talking about sponsors it is in the most professional sense which is basically you need someone and this is true if you want to serve on a board or whatever someone has to be there who says Herta can do the job she may be untried and tested in this particular area but I can vouch for her she can do her job transition from one space to the next do it if you can in a space where you have people who can vouch for you thank you I had something around mental health I didn't hear the question clearly but there was something around mental health but increasingly I've come to understand and appreciate the Sabbath because it's actually a central part of mental health because the challenge with careers 365 it can happen and why the Sabbath is important it gives us a reason to pose but more than anything it helps us know that that job or that whatever you're doing is not the most important thing in life so for our mental health I believe thing connected to God is one thing but also seeking help where we have challenges there's nothing wrong with going to therapy so if you have challenges I had something on money in the family I didn't hear it clearly I don't know if you did I'll just take the question you make money and you're married so is it your money or is it corporate money at the house level of course it's corporate money we don't think of it like that quite frankly I mean early on in our marriage talk about setbacks and failures came from a background where we had lost everything literally the communists took everything so I grew up with my parents saying well we used to own this and we own that and so forth so when Hans and I got married one of the things that gave me a sense of identity was to have our own house and I had just graduated from law school to make a long story short I knew we could buy this house and Hans is more risk adverse than I am and he thought we couldn't afford it I knew we could afford it and I said to him I want that house and he being a good husband he said okay and if you pay for it so we had separate bank accounts it was the most miserable thing I never enjoyed that house for a day the point being we learned very early on it's not his money or my money it is our money we make joint decisions we work together but obviously you need a relationship that functions that's the key if you have a spouse who leaves you destitute then you need to make different decisions so here we are talking about relationships that function so that's and maybe just to take the segue here about male-female partnerships for things to work I think sometimes we don't focus enough that male and female were created in the image of God and that we should be striving for really true partnerships when we look at the Godhead because we were created in the image of God when we look at the Godhead we are not saying Jesus is more important or the father is more important or the Holy Spirit is more important it is a Godhead that functions it's the same in a marriage it's the same in a female-male relationship we are partners we are working together and that's what we should be striving for everything else is quite frankly it's diabolical and it goes back to say to not wanting us to reach the potential that God has created us for thank you very much I'm sure there are other questions that will be answered in later sessions so it does not end here and I just want to thank the panelists once again for being very kind and being very resourceful we truly appreciate your time and your presence may the Lord bless you and continue to expand and increase you thank you our host I'm going to hand over back to you now thank you